Taliban celebrates five years since they took control of Afghanistan

0:03Hello and welcome to NewsHour live from the BBC World Service in London. I'm Rebecca Kesby. Today marks five years since the Taliban seized control of Afghanistan. US forces had begun withdrawing from the country after a 20-year presence. But in the end, the situation collapsed into chaos. Afghan government forces previously supported by the US were easily overrun by a resurgent Taliban as its forces swept across the country, closing in on the capital Kabul. Many tried to flee their advance, leading to pandemonium at Kabul airport as the last flights out of the country took off.

0:49Well, in desperation, some people actually clambered onto the air bridges as they tried aboard departing planes. Our chief international correspondent Lise Doucette was at Kabul airport in those chaotic and frightening days in August 2021. She spoke to the Afghan journalist Wahida Faizi, who had decided her best option was to leave the country. I can't leave here. Why can't you? It's not safe for you? My dream is enough. Taliban beating me here. They fighting me here. They're shooting me here, but they didn't know now me. They know I'm journalist. If they know, I know they will kill me. I love my country, but I can't stay here.

1:39I should leave. Thank you so much. Go safely. Thank you. Thank you so much. Good to see you, Mahirajan. I'm so sorry you have to leave. So sorry. Well, that was journalist Wahida Faizi there speaking to Lise Doucette. She actually does now live and work in Europe. And I'm delighted to say Lise Doucette joins us live now from Kabul. Lise, what a day it must be today, marking five years. But what can you tell us or remind us of of that day back in August 2021 when you were there? It makes me cry to hear Wahida cry again that day when she was forced to leave Afghanistan. Her story is the story of thousands of Afghans, including two former colleagues that we're going to speak to on this program today.

2:34It is such a, to use the phrase, a journalist uses a split screen moment here. I'm in Kabul now. The streets are festooned with the white Taliban flag with their Arabic Islamic script. their chanting in the streets, waving flags, celebrating their five years of victory. But today is a day fraught with grief, a day seared in memory for all too many Afghans about how the day, and you hear Rebecca from so many who say those who were in Kabul, the day started as any day would in Kabul. They were worried about the security, possible suicide bombings by the Taliban, and none of them imagined that by the end of the day, the Afghan president had fled, Taliban fighters were sitting at his desk, and thousands of Afghans were making their way to the international airport in a panic, desperate to board any plane out to get out of a country, falling to the Taliban, reversing not just 20 years of international engagement, but ending, taking away from Afghans all of that they had achieved, all of the places with so many memories and all of the dreams they still had.

3:46They were losing so much about themselves behind. So it's a very difficult day for so many Afghans. And you mentioned there that the streets are festooned with celebratory Taliban paraphernalia, But I understand women haven't been allowed to take part today. What is the current mood there in Kabul? Well, yes, Taliban is a movement of men and men who, many of whom are ideologically driven. When they came into the capital, many of them had never seen the capital before. Many of them had never seen any women outside of their own household, their mother, their sisters, unless they were married. So 2021 was a day of excitement and joy and celebration back there for them.

4:33And it's the same kind of scenes on the streets here today, absent, of course, the cars rushing to the airport. But if there's one strong story that has emerged from five years of Taliban rule, the Taliban would say it's the story that we have now achieved the end of the war in this country. They say it's the first time in decades of Afghan history that one armed force controls all of the country. There are skirmishes and occasional attacks by groups based abroad, but the Taliban are firmly in control. But the story for millions of Afghans is that women and girls are being erased from public life.

5:11It has been absolutely heartbreaking to speak to schoolgirls who now have no other choice but to go to secret schools, to study online, to go to Islamic madrasas, women who've lost their jobs, pushed out of university, now making jams or jewellery. And so many areas, public parks even, are no-go areas for them. So for them, they feel that this is not a regime for them. And just briefly, Lise, on the international relations front, I mean, the West is criticised, isn't it, for abandoning Afghanistan, turning away from the plight of the people, drastically cutting aid as well because it doesn't want to help the Taliban.

5:51But then other countries like India, China, Russia even officially recognises the Taliban. They are in talks with the Taliban. Does that give them legitimacy and what impact does the West disengaging have? only one country, Russia, has formally recognized the Taliban. That's even less than the number of countries which recognized it when it was controlled in the 1990s. But the Taliban point to so many countries, China, India, almost all of Afghanistan's neighbors who have accredited diplomats, they've signed major investment deals, but it is in effect de facto of recognition. The Taliban would very much like to have their seat at the United Nations in New York.

6:36They would like to be part of the international community. But the ultra-conservative emir who's been issuing those hundreds of edicts, many of them focused on women and girls, is not budging on the issue of girls' schools. And for Western countries and others, they simply cannot have formal relations with a country which doesn't accept internationally recognized standards of human rights. And that's Islamic countries as well. But that's focused. Yeah, you mentioned that we've got some BBC, former BBC colleagues joining us as well. Yes, I have to say, I wish that I was sitting next to Zuhal Ahmed.

7:14Zuhal was from working with the BBC in Kabul and also Bilal Sawarbi, who was also a dear BBC colleague here in Kabul. They found refuge in Toronto, the city of Toronto in Canada. They now have a second home and they're both joining us. Zuhal happens to be in France today, but both of them are on the line. Hello, salaam to you, Bilal and to Zuhal. Hi, Liz. Good morning, Liz. It's great to be with you again. Good morning. Bilal, I've been telling people the story of how when we used to meet in Kabul in those last years, 2019, 2020, you would say, Liz, I've stopped saying see you soon when I say goodbye to friends, because I never know whether those friends will still be alive the next day.

8:00And then I was so startled the day I made it to Kabul International Airport, and there I saw you in the queue to leave Afghanistan, something you never wanted to do. What are your reflections today, Bilal? Well, absolutely. It was devastating on a personal level. But in hindsight, I believe the Taliban have not learned from the pages of Afghan politics and from the recent history. They have squandered way too many opportunities. The leader of the Taliban, Habitat Al-Khonzada, has no flexibility on two issues at least. One is the issue of girls' education and significant participation of Afghan women in public life.

8:45Second is the issue of a possible national reconciliation process, if I could call it that. And let's not forget that Afghanistan never got a comprehensive peace process, which was heartbreaking to say the least because there's no ceasefire to start with. And what it was, it was an exit deal between the Americans and the Taliban that contributed massively, in my view, to the Taliban takeover. But five years down the line, being away from my country, being away from my friends and family, I could only hope that Afghans in power, and that specifically, or the Taliban at the moment, would rethink their policies, that they would stop crushing the dreams of millions of Afghan women.

9:36And hopefully Afghanistan could have some sort of a peace process where it can finally be the home of all Afghans. But probably that's wishful thinking as an Afghan and probably that's a hope that we will continue to cling on to. Yes, as always, you find a poetic way to describe the situation, saying that being in exile is like being in a waiting room. Zuhal, what are you thinking about today, about August the 15th, your memories of that time? You left a short time before with your husband and your little girl, your husband also a journalist, but you two were very much affected by that day, those days.

10:19Absolutely, Lise. And today, 15th of August, is a devastating day and memory for me and most of Afghans. especially those who are outside of country in exile and today brings takes me back to to that day where I was out fortunately should I say fortunately I feel guilty to say that but I was out with my family but I was in contact in close contact with my family, my siblings and parents, my friends, my colleagues who were in absolute desperation and hopelessness and fear. And they were trying to get out of the country. And we were trying to find a way to take them out safely. And still to this day, I am in contact with them.

11:23I report on women's affairs and women's rights as a freelance journalist, and I'm in contact with activists, teachers, former government employees, locals who are in absolute despair and hopelessness because they have lost the life that they had built for decades, the hopes that they had for their futures, and the fact that we lost many cohorts and generations of doctors, engineers, teachers that our society could have but unfortunately due to the bans and restrictions we lost that we only have a minute left Bilal and Zuhal to both you but first to Bilal do you still hold on to hope Afghans always said hope is the last to die well absolutely there there's hope to to hang on to because of the Afghan people who are suffering continuously under various regimes, but I think it is up to the Taliban and everyone else to make that work.

12:34Zuhal, 10 seconds. Yes, absolutely. Hope is something that takes us forward. Bilal and Zuhal, so lovely to speak with you today and proud still to say that I'm one of your colleagues. Thank you. Lise Doucette there, live from Kabul. This is Rebecca Kesby with NewsHour live from the BBC. Now at least 38 people have been killed in a powerful earthquake in Indonesia. The 7.7 magnitude earthquake struck in the early hours of the morning just off the coast of the island of Flores. The earthquake sent panicked residents in the village of Talibura onto the streets. One of them, Nora, expressed her shock.

13:19We were resting at home with the family. There were 13 of us inside the house and we all ran to save ourselves. Well, the rescue effort to try to find casualties and reach survivors is underway. Let's get the latest from our Southeast Asia correspondent, Jonathan Head, who's monitoring events from Bangkok. Jonathan, what do we know? What happened? It was very much what you get with earthquakes, and there are a lot of them in this part of the world. Fortunately, it was early in the morning. Also, in this area, Flores, there aren't any big high-rise buildings, you know, large buildings. I mean, Marmarie, which is the largest town on Flores, is quite close to the epicentre.

14:00It's only about 300 ,000 people. But people who were outside or in public buildings, it's a Catholic part of Indonesia. So if there were people at mass in the morning, I mean, some of them were injured when roof tiles or roofs caved in. And people just rushed out. because they know about earthquakes. The first thing was to get out of buildings. You know, buildings are not always very strong there. We've seen videos of public buildings, not quite collapsing, but large chunks of concrete coming down. We saw videos from the port in Malmurie where a large ferry was docked, taking on passengers. People on the gangway there were thrown into the sea when the whole thing collapsed into the water.

14:39And a lot of people got on motorbikes and started heading inland. And that's because there were tsunami warnings. at 7.7 this was a very powerful earthquake in the sea to the north of Flores and people there have a strong collective memory of a catastrophic earthquake back in 1992 where more than 2 ,000 people died almost entirely because of a tsunami, a very high one. In this case it didn't happen and that probably minimised loss of life. But as things stand it was felt very widely all over Flores, lots of small towns. It's a very mountainous area. So it's taking Indonesia's very experienced search and rescue team some time to reach all the communities where buildings have collapsed and where there may be trapped people.

15:23There have been landslides on the roads. The roads are not very good anyway. So a lot of places are cut off and it's proving quite difficult both to reach those areas and to make a full assessment of exactly how bad the damage is. But it looks like it's not catastrophic, but it's pretty bad. This is a very poor region and a lot of buildings are quite badly damaged. A lot of houses uninhabitable. And as you say, Jonathan, I mean, just the sheer experience and knowledge of local people probably will have helped both in the actual earthquake itself, but also in the aftermath. But I guess the authorities there will be hoping they'll be getting international help soon.

16:02it depends on the scale of it i mean indonesia is actually quite good at responding to disasters they've got a very uh experienced search and rescue um organization called basarnas and they also have a very good disaster management team they've it's been honed through years and years of experience of really of disasters often much bigger i mean basarnas the search and rescue people routinely respond to about two and a half thousand incidents a year they've got offices all over the country. So I think, you know, I mean, Indonesia's economy is a bit stressed at the moment. The government budget is stressed.

16:35But this does not yet appear to be on the scale where they would require significant international assistance, although all the usual international aid agencies are standing by and saying they're ready to help if needed. OK, thank goodness for that. Well, thank you for that update there live. That's the BBC's Jonathan Head there. He's our Southeast Asia correspondent.

17:04Welcome back to NewsHour. As firefighters continue to battle wildfires in France, Croatia, Belgium, Spain and here in the UK, Europe's long, hot and desperately dry summer shows no sign of ending any time soon. Farmers are warning of low harvests and higher food prices as a result. Some farmers are wondering how they can keep farming in the new era of climate change. And today, Britain's new Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, has announced new funding for farmers around$88 million. Will that help? Let's speak to one farmer, Olly Harrison. He's got an arable farm in the north-west of England near Prescott and joins us live.

17:42Olly, what's it been like for you? It's been a terrible year. I mean, last year we thought it was bad, it was dry. But then And this year, this real extreme heat that we had in the beginning of May and then again at the end of May and then into June and then, of course, July, it's just been relentless, over 30 degrees. And, you know, the crops that we grow in the UK just aren't used to that. So they've basically died on their feet. So what does that mean in real terms then? I mean, will you have a harvest at all this year? Well, we've had a very quick harvest. I mean, last year was a very quick harvest.

18:13It took seven weeks. This year it took four weeks and the sheds are still empty. we've harvested all the wheat and the barley and everything else and you know we've just got real low yields real shriveled grains in the shed you know if you imagine like a grape when it's shriveled up becomes a raisin well that's kind of what the wheat looks like at the moment it's all shriveled up and pinched grains it's it's been quite devastating to be honest so europe is the is the fastest warming area in the world at the moment this is according to climate scientists which means i guess that farmers like you are going to need to adapt pretty fast what kind of helped you need?

18:47Well we changed our cropping this year so after last year we've grown some more grey maize which is some of the crops that you traditionally grow in southern regions but you know we really need the government to understand and step up the support really to keep UK agriculture still producing food because at the moment there's too much risk in it at the moment. Yeah I mean what's that going to mean for farming? I mean some people are saying they can't see a future for farming in the UK. Well I'm struggling to see a future growing wheat which is the main staple and this is the first year ever I've never ordered seed yet because the current prices of wheat and the risk in growing it I just can't risk the family home.

19:27Goodness me. Prime Minister Burnham is saying he's going to give around 88 million dollars to help farmers will that be a help? Well they've just redistributed some of the funds that were already promised but there's still only 10 percent of what we were getting four or five years ago to try and keep us in business and you know have a sustainable food supply you know it's um support for agriculture is just an investment to making sure you can feed your nation and briefly i mean even if it started raining now will it make much difference at this point in the season no it's too late for most crops you know all the arable crops have harvested the potato crops it would um it wouldn't really make a lot of difference to them now maybe the odd ones it would help in next year's crops get out the ground so you know oil seed rape can often be in the ground for over 12 months so we have got some of that growing at the moment now that desperately needs a drink all right well good to speak to you ollie good luck with it that's ollie harrison one of those farmers struggling to deal with the latest weather conditions here in europe you're listening live to news hour from From the BBC, I'm Rebecca Kesby.

20:38More now on our top story, marking five years since the Taliban retook control of Afghanistan. One of the starkest images from that time was the chaotic withdrawal of the United States and its allies. Even as Taliban forces were advancing towards the capital, Kabul, David Petraeus was the four-star general that led US forces for a year until July 2011. He then went on to serve as director of the CIA and he told us here at the BBC that the drawdown of US troops was a mistake. I had argued for quite some time with then-Vice President Biden, then later President Biden and his team members, that the shibboleth that you have to end endless wars is not axiomatic.

21:24You can continue, quote, endless wars as long as they are sustainable and sustainability is measured in the expenditure of blood and of treasure. Well, earlier today, I spoke to Alberto Cairo. He's a 73-year-old Italian who first arrived in Kabul as a humanitarian aid worker back in 1990. That's just before the Mujahideen, the American-backed militia, took control of Kabul then from the Russian-backed government. Alberto trained as a lawyer but has spent his life in Kabul as a physiotherapist and builder of prosthetic limbs treating thousands of people affected by the various wars Afghanistan has suffered in that time.

22:06I asked him first what he remembers of that day five years ago when the Taliban came back to power in chaotic scenes. Chaos is the first thing that comes to my mind and distress. I remember very well that we were all a bit surprised by the speed. The Taliban reached Kabul very, very quickly, very fast, and nobody could really believe it. And then what I remember really, really well is the endless number of people coming to my office, and then especially the girls who were crying, crying because they still remembered what has happened in 20 years before, during the Taliban regime number one. So when they suddenly, they had to quit school and then to stop working.

23:00So that was a big stress. And then, honestly, nobody knew exactly what was going to happen. The Taliban were saying that, no, nothing, and it's not like 20 years before. Life will be absolutely normal. Please go on with your daily activity. But no, it was not like that. So the feeling was very, very chaos and distress, yes. And as a foreign national, you're one of those who probably could have left, could have got out. Why did you decide to stay? Well, I did not, honestly, I did not, me and my colleagues, we did not feel to be target of any action of the Taliban against us. So we were working at the time.

23:46I was working in a rehabilitation centre, physical rehabilitation centre. The patients needed us, so why not to stay? And you talk about the, well, it's the fear really, isn't it, of the girls and women in particular about the Taliban coming back. When they did, they said they would be different to the Taliban of the 90s. They said there would be concessions. What's the reality been like, though? What's the Taliban 2.0 been like? I know that they did not keep the promise because I remember that almost immediately and they closed the Ministry of Women Affair and turned it into headquarter of religious police.

24:29So that it was a very, very clear message. And then, unfortunately, many, many addicts and bans started coming out against the population with the limitation, a strong restriction of the liberties of the people, in particularly of the women. So that was, no, it was not what we hoped or it was not what they had promised. And of course, the focus is on the women and the lives of the women, which have become really difficult, haven't they? Particularly, as you say, during the US occupation, there were schools, women could go to university, they could take part in politics, they could run elements of the police force they had senior positions i don't know how easy it is for for somebody like you to be in touch with women but you know what are you understanding from what they're going through at the moment well life for women is not easy at all definitely i work mainly in a medical facility so um i have a relatively easy contact with with the patient and then i am I'm not a young person, so I'm allowed to talk to women in a more freely way than younger people.

25:44For some of them, those coming from the countryside, very little has changed. But for those from Kabul that had the opportunity to have an education, to see things, we have to keep in mind that 70 % of the population of Afghanistan is under 30 years of age. so many of them most of them they have they have seen a school they have experienced school internet television telephones and then suddenly for everybody there are strong restrictions and for the women these restrictions are particularly tough their life is very difficult imagine that suddenly you you are not allowed anymore to to have the life that you had one month earlier You cannot go to school.

26:27You cannot walk freely. You can go to park. Your life is really a kind of prison. So that's, for many of them, is really terrible. Many are depressed. Many are really living a difficult, difficult life. So I understand. And I also believe that it cannot continue forever like this because it is not only something bad or painful for the women, but it's going to damage the society, the entire country. So I'm convinced that with time something is going to change. That's Alberto Cairo there speaking to us earlier from Kabul.

27:17Now there are parliamentary elections taking place in Russia next month but one of the country's oldest political parties has been banned from taking part. The anti-war Yabloka Party says it's going to appeal the court ruling. Its leader Nikolai Rubikov told the BBC that the ruling by the Supreme Court, finding the party guilty of accepting funding from overseas and also copyright violations, had nothing to do with reality, he said. He was asked if he would leave Russia for his own safety. I'm not thinking of leaving Russia because I want to save the lives of people, millions of people who support Yabloka and people who hope and have faith and believe that Russia will become a free and peaceful and good-willing country.

28:17Well, meanwhile, the war in Ukraine, July was one of the deadliest months for civilians since the full-scale Russian invasion began in February 2022, with Russia launching daily drone and missile attacks across the country. Ukraine has also responded with its own campaign of long-range strikes inside Russia, targeting oil refineries, export terminals and logistics hubs. Last week, Russia's defence ministry said it had intercepted hundreds of Ukrainian drones across 19 regions. So what does all this mean for everyday life in Russia? The BBC's James Beardsworth has been speaking to Russian civilians to get their take, and we've changed their names to protect their anonymity.

29:07In the city of Electrostel, 60 kilometres east of Moscow, a Ukrainian drone crashes into a warehouse of the Russian retailer Wildberries. The explosions and resulting fires, which burnt for three days, so large they could be seen from space, destroyed tens of millions of dollars' worth of goods. The warehouse burned down, and we were told that all of our products, everything we had stored there, was lost. Margarita owns a small business selling confectionery across Russia. The strikes on the electrostyle plant cost her business thousands of dollars. Wildberries became one of our main sales channels.

29:49Our sweets can be shipped to different cities across Russia and to neighbouring countries. But now we need to change our approach due to recent events. The strikes on the retailer, Russia's equivalent of Amazon, are part of a recent Ukrainian campaign of long-range drone strikes targeting critical infrastructure deep inside Russia. A plan, President Zelensky says, that is aimed at bringing the war back to Russia. Often thousands of kilometres from the front lines, the drone attacks have disrupted daily life and remind Russians of a war that Moscow launched over four years ago. Polina is a teacher in Moscow.

30:34Now that we know that a drone can hit our apartments, we feel scared for us, for our lives, for our relatives, you know. And we feel that the war is closer than ever. Though the strikes are much less frequent than Russia's daily drone and missile attacks across Ukraine, where civilian deaths in July were at their highest since the first few months of the war, Polina said the situation in the Russian capital is becoming more and more difficult. In Russia's Kursk region, closer to the Ukrainian border, the situation is far more perilous. People drive around at 150 km per hour, even though the speed limit on most roads is 90, because it's believed that driving that fast can reduce the probability of a drone hitting your car.