Tenth woman's body found in South Africa suburb as police probe killings

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27:24Welcome back to NewsHour. A woman in Wales has undergone a life-saving kidney transplant after she found a donor match on social media. Karen Davies' post was spotted by Gary Summerfield, who happily turned out to be a match. The BBC's Matt Murray has been to meet them both. They were strangers, but now they'll forever have a bond. Gary Summerfield meets Karen for the first time since the transplant. Gary saw Karen's emotional Facebook plea for a living kidney donor and immediately volunteered to be tested after she posted she did not want to leave her family without a mother. My main thing is the kids.

28:05I want to be around for the kids. The fact that somebody came forward and has gone through all the testing, because it's a lot of testing, I was just amazed. And Gary, it was the Facebook post which really struck home with you, didn't it? That's right, Karen being a very similar age to my daughter, and she mentioned the children, and I thought if I was my daughter, I would be searching I-in-law if we had exhausted all avenues through the family and friends, and I just thought, this lady needs one of my kidneys more than I need two of them. Ten years ago, the mother of four from Brynner underwent a heart transplant after having a heart attack at 31 years of age.

28:45Patients must take anti-rejection drugs daily following the operation so their bodies do not attack the new organ, but they can damage the kidneys. And Karen always knew she'd need another life-saving transplant. They'd been deteriorating for a few years, probably about three years ago now. They said I was in stage three kidney failure and it just gradually went from there. Gary underwent extensive assessments for over a year and at 60 years of age, he underwent the six-hour procedure in July. So I thought, I'm going to go for this. It would be selfish of me to want someone to come forward for my family, yet I'm not going to think about it for Karen.

29:28It's up there with getting married and having my children. Seeing Karen like this, yeah. You know, donate my kidney to her, yeah. It's up there with the top three for me. A very deserving lady, deserving family. I would go through it again, no hesitation, no hesitation. With the average wait for a kidney transplant around three years, Karen felt she didn't have that time. Mentally, to be able to handle the stresses that transplant brings. Karen's husband, Matthew, and her 17-year-old son, Brandon, say they will always be grateful to Gary. Everyone knows what's going on in the world at the moment.

30:05It's a horrible place at times, but it really does give you hope that there is kindness in the world and you've just got to look, you know, and the kindness will come to you and it is just mind-blowing, you know, and we'll never ever be able to repay Gary and the family for what they've done and, you know, and just giving Karen another chance. Lovely surprise hours coming from the pause. Gary shows Karen the pin badge he's been presented with for being a living donor but it's the gift of life which is the real reward for both. Matt Murray reporting. For more good news stories, have a listen to the BBC's Happy Pod.

30:54You're listening to NewsHour from the BBC with me, Sean Lay. During the French Revolution, the Place de la Concorde in the heart of Paris hosted some 1 ,100 executions, among those guillotined Marie Antoinette and Maximilien Robespierre. But on Saturday, it was a more joyful occasion, which attracted the crowds.

31:20They cheered and waved on both sides of the Champs -Élysées as Pope Leo, on the second day of his four-day visit to France, approached the Place de la Concorde in the Popemobile, a choir singing as he arrived to lead Mass in the open air.

31:43There were an estimated 700 ,000 people in attendance. Leo addressed these words to the younger people in his audience.

31:56I think of you, dear young people. You are the church of today. How beautiful to see your enthusiasm, your dynamism, your youthful engagement at the heart of the Christian community. Well, earlier in the day, the Pope had visited Maison Bakhita, an organisation which provides an opportunity for people born abroad to meet French people socially, sharing meals with them and staging sporting events together. I asked Valérie Moniot, one of the volunteers, what had been the Pope's message to the people there? He said that nobody is poor enough not to be able to give and nobody is rich enough not to receive.

32:33So there is room for everyone. Apparently the Pope's paternal grandmother was born in France. As a French woman yourself, go on, let us into a secret. How good or how bad is his French? I will say he's French. He has a bit of accent of a person who will have learned Italian before French. Valérie Monio, so now you know. Ailey Winstani-Channa is a journalist with the International Catholic Weekly, The Tablet. She's in France for the papal visits and spoke to us from the southern town of Lourdes, an important pilgrimage site. Asked her how Pope Leo has been received. I would say it's been absolutely ecstatic.

33:19I mean, there were about 700 ,000 people there for mass at the Place de la Concorde today, which was far more than were predicted. The atmosphere is quite infectious. There are crowds everywhere waving Vatican flags and French flags teeming all over the city. Roads are closed. The metro is closed. And everywhere you look, everyone is talking about the Pope. So it's really as though Pope mania has taken over the city. And I also found that it was maybe surprisingly positive. I mean, nobody seemed to be complaining about the disruption. Everybody was just excited and happy that Paris is having this visit.

33:55And he has an image that perhaps is more accessible than some of his predecessors, not least because he is younger. Yes, yes, that's true. And I think he's also seen very much as a unifying figure. He's appreciated outside of the church because of his work on AI, his calls for peace, his willingness to take a stand against certain political leaders. But he's also seen as a very unifying figure within the church because different branches of Catholicism, if you like, are able to see him as somebody who stands for them rather than some of his predecessors who've been seen as more divisive. Today, he's also been meeting recently baptised adults.

34:34I saw a figure suggesting, I think the French Bishops' Conference put out the figure that a record 21 ,000 adults had been baptised last Easter. Do you have a sense among the people you talk to as a journalist with the Tablet magazine that this is becoming more of an issue, that more people are considering this as an option, even if they weren't brought up in a religious household? Yes, absolutely. I mean, the numbers in France in particular have been staggering, but we have seen this in other countries as well across Europe and in the UK. And I think it's important to recognize it as a phenomenon that's coming out of a secularized culture.

35:15So Pope Leo said today that it may seem paradoxical that somewhere as secularized as France is witnessing this huge rediscovery of faith. But it comes in the context of this perhaps being the first generation for whom it was no longer the default to be baptized as babies. So they've reached adulthood and a minority of them, but still enough for people to take notice, are considering faith and choosing to become Catholic through baptism and confirmation. So it's kind of that transition from Catholicism as something which is automatic to something which is very actively chosen. In C, the official statistics agency for France, showed that about 25 % of French 18 to 49 year olds identified as Catholic compared with 43 % a decade earlier.

36:01And that's a fairly significant drop. Yes, absolutely. And that's why this rise should be seen as something which is in the larger context of the decline in infant baptisms and the decline in mass attendance. So what you see is a rise in adult baptisms, which has never been the norm in Europe for as long as Christianity has been the dominant religion. Yes, the presumption was always if it was done at all, it was done as a child. Exactly. People weren't converting to Christianity because it was assumed that they would be raised Christian. But now Christianity is no longer seen as the default. When you talk to young Christians, young worshippers, young Catholics, people who've made this choice, what are the factors they point to?

36:44Well, many of them talk about the need for a sense of meaning, looking for a sense of truth, something to root themselves in. Particularly the history of Catholicism is something that's attractive because there's so much continuity and living in a time with a lot of flux and change that's attractive. Many might point to discovering faith because of a multicultural context where there are many different options that seem to be available. so they might be having conversations with friends or colleagues or family members of many different faiths but many of them who I've spoken to have pointed to difficult things that have happened perhaps the pandemic or difficult life events as being something that's prompted them to look into it or maybe even cause them to have a spiritual experience.

37:32You're in Lourdes quite a long way from Paris and the Pope is catching up with you later this evening he's going to be there tell us about the events taking place, because it's a very important place of spiritual tradition for French Catholics. Yes, absolutely. So the Pope has arrived this evening and right now he's doing prayers at the Grotto, which is where St. Bernadette had her apparitions of the Virgin Mary. And it's become one of the hugest pilgrimage sites for Catholics in the world, particularly because of the healing miracles that take place there. and the Pope tomorrow will be meeting with people who accompany the sick who travel to Lourdes each year and he'll also be doing a big outdoor mass as well as a traditional torch-lit procession and these processions that take place in Lourdes have been inscribed in France's UNESCO World Heritage so they're sort of seen as being a big part of what the Catholic tradition in France has to offer.

38:32That's Ailey Winstani-Channa, journalist with the International Catholic Weekly, The Tablet.

38:46South Africa's new ambassador to Washington is urging Donald Trump to end a refugee scheme for white Afrikaners like himself, who the president says are the victims of genocide. White South Africans now account for almost all of the people granted refugee status by the United States. The State Department says more than 17 ,000 more of them could be admitted to the United States next year. Our North America correspondent, Ionee Wells, reports. In St Helena Bay on South Africa's west coast, the houses have an enviable view of long sand beaches, blue skies, a gentle swell of waves. The most important thing is your birth certificate.

39:27But this resident, S.Y. Devinaja, wants to pack it all up and, in his words, flee. South Africa is a terrible country to live in for everybody at this stage, not just the Afrikaners. But the reality is that there's a political drive towards killing white people and killing the farmers on the farms. And that movement is a political-driven agenda to wipe us out. Data shows most victims of farm violence in the country are black, not white. And farm attacks, while they do exist, only make up a small fraction of murders. It gets worse. And these are people that are officials, and they're saying that, kill the white farmer and take their land.

40:09The data hasn't stopped US President Donald Trump seizing on this narrative and claiming white South Africans are victims of genocide. He made this accusation to South Africa's President Cyril Ramaphosa at the White House last year and created a refugee scheme for white South Africans. We had three times, three separate occasions where people came into the house. but... Lili, not her real name, moved her family to Texas through the scheme a year ago, leaving their farm and lives behind in South Africa. Nothing was stolen, we weren't harmed. But there is friends of my husband, people that lived around us that were not fortunate not to be harmed.

40:49They were brutally attacked with pangas and hammers and that was very close to us. And I'm working on my green card. In the last 10 months, nearly 13 ,000 refugees were admitted to the U.S. All but three of them were South African. To qualify for the U.S. program... Larry Bartlett, the former director of the U.S.'s Refugee Admissions Program, fears they're taking refugee places reserved for those fleeing persecution. It frankly would be laughable, except for the fact that we are now denying legitimate refugees an opportunity to come to the United States. and instead what the Trump administration has chosen to do is to focus on a population of white people who frankly under U.S.

41:36law unlikely qualify for refugee status and they're taking scarce and precious places for people who have a real need to relocate, for people who have fled war, for people who fled ethnic cleansing is wrong and I think is probably unlawful. South Africa's new ambassador in Washington, Rolf Mayer, negotiated an end to apartheid on behalf of the party responsible for it. Now he wants to negotiate an end to this scheme. The notion of a mass attack on the Afrikaner was misrepresented by those that might have conveyed the message. I mean, I'm an Afrikaner from South Africa myself. I can say that I've never experienced something of that kind.

42:27So the source is misrepresented, unfortunately, something that just doesn't exist. I made the point several times publicly that I would like to see the executive order being lifted. But here in Washington, D.C., pressure on the South African government is increasing. The U.S. has announced visa restrictions targeting people it accuses of discriminating against South Africa's white minority. The number of those arriving here keeps growing, with some, like Lili, encouraging more to join her. My entire life's changed. What I call the American dream, OK, is we both have jobs. We live in a safe neighbourhood.

43:06This is home for me now. This is home for my family. Lili has no desire to go back, but it's not clear if a future government, after Donald Trump, would continue to recognise her status here. Aini Wells is reporting there, and her full interview with Ambassador Rolf Mayer is on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts. He was a member of the South African Parliament from 1979 to 1997. He was also involved in the negotiations representing the National Party in the negotiations to end apartheid. He later co-founded the United Democratic Movement.

43:54I'm Sean Lay and this is NewsHour. On NewsHour in recent days we heard from the Canadian province of British Columbia. The government there is suing OpenAI for failing to warn police that a teenage internet user was engaging in violent exchanges with its AI chatbot, ChatGPT, even though OpenAI blocked her account for precisely that reason. Jessie Van Rootsela from Tumblr Ridge immediately opened a second account and carried on discussing her violent fantasies. Months later, on 10th February this year, she killed her mother and younger brother before driving to her former school where she killed six people and injured 27 others before finally shooting herself.

44:39She was 18 years old. The school has since been pulled down. Nikki Sharma, the Attorney General for British Columbia, told NewsHour that OpenAI needed to explain why Van Roozelaar's account was closed because of the exchanges she had with ChatGPT, but that the content of those exchanges did not meet the company's own criteria for referral to the police. What are the safety protocols that we think are mandatory or important for reporting when there is a threat to public harm? What are the design standards that AI needs to have in place in order to prevent these types of harms? Now, to be clear, I haven't seen the chats between the shooter and the Chachapiti, and I've asked for their release and they refused.

45:24but they were so alarming at some point that it caused this kind of internal conflict. And so I think people everywhere are asking questions about AI safety and what we should expect from those systems, including CEOs themselves. So in order to seek those answers and a level of accountability, I've decided that we should pursue legal action. Nikki Sharma, the Attorney General for British Columbia. Well, Mark Folman, national affairs editor at the news magazine Mother Jones, says he has seen some of the killers' exchanges with chat GPT. He's published a story detailing what he learned. Until now, there's really been no public information about the contents of those chats in the Tumblr Ridge case.

46:11It was previously reported in the media that OpenAI had shut down an account by the user in June 2025, which was about eight months before the mass shooting, but decided not to refer it to law enforcement authorities. One of the astonishing things I found in my investigation was that the perpetrator simply logged back on with a second account, which OpenAI had also disclosed previously the existence of it, but said nothing about what was in it. The perpetrator had used that account to tell the chatbot about what had happened with the account ban. And remarkably, ChatGPT started explaining why it had happened and then gave advice on how to go around the safeguards to continue to talk about violence.

46:53And that's precisely what the perpetrator did, I found in my investigation, to continue to focus on violent content, violent fantasies about mass killings, discussing the building and use of firearms and explosives and so forth. Now, we should be clear that the second account did not use the same username and wasn't generated by the same email address of the first account. So arguably, it wasn't automatic that they would recognize the same user. But what you're saying is the exchanges not only should have also flagged up the same concerns, but actually the OpenAI's own tool was giving advice on how to bypass its controls.

47:41that's right and then further engaging in that kind of violent content over a period of months and so i think this raises some big questions about what the company has said about its safety systems that it has safeguards in place that are supposed to prevent this type of focus on violent thinking and planning clearly that's not what happened in this situation and so i've gone to open ai over the last several months with very specific detailed questions about their safety systems, about how the automated review system flags content like this, what they do about it. They have not engaged in any of it.

48:18They've declined to answer any of my inquiries. Just to be clear, and again, I appreciate you have to protect your sources, and that's quite right. But have you seen transcripts of these exchanges or some of these exchanges? As I reported my Mother Jones story, over the last several months of investigating this case, I've been able to speak with multiple separate sources who have knowledge of the matter. And I've also been able to reveal significant portions of the chat history of the Tumblr Ridge shooter. When you looked at the exchanges, what leapt out for you? Well, I would say that I found the chat GPT's willingness to coach the user on avoiding its own safeguards.

49:02That was astonishing to begin with. And then beyond that, the prolonged engagement in violent ideation was really quite disturbing. And to be clear, it's important to acknowledge that, as I say in my reporting in Mother Jones, that ChatGPT did in some instances push back or refuse and say, I can't engage in that or I can't help with that. But the user was able to go around that fairly easily just by repeating prompts or slightly modifying them using the very strategy that ChatGPT had advised, which is to say, well, it's only fictional or hypothetical. I'd also note that in part of this investigative work I've been doing as a series of stories over the last several months, I tested ChatGPT's guardrails myself, and I found similar results.

49:47Now, in terms of what the company has said, at the time, so earlier this year, it acknowledged that it had recognized there was a problem with the first account, that acts of violence, potential acts of violence were being discussed. This breached its rules. The account was closed. But it said it didn't meet the standard needed to trigger a referral to law enforcement. Are you any clearer from the information you've been able to camera what exactly the criteria were that OpenAI used at the time which weren't triggered and whether or not those criteria have changed as a result of this case? Because the company has said if this case happened again, the accounts, both accounts would be shut down and there would have been a referral.

50:33Right. And that's the sum total of what OpenAI has said. And so to your question, the answer is no. I have no understanding of what their criteria are for making that decision. And I've asked repeatedly. Right now, generally speaking, the landscape is such that there is not much regulation at all of the AI industry. And so I think there are some big questions here about whether or not a company is responsible to report information like this. The current landscape is such that they make that decision themselves. And not only are they in charge of making that decision, but how they make that decision is up to them and has been kept private.

51:14We don't know beyond the sort of broad statements that OpenAI has made about this type of safety risk. That's Mark Folman and you can find his four articles on this disturbing subject on the website motherjones.com. I'm Sean Lay. Thanks for being with me for this news hour. Do please join us again. We are here every day of the year, twice a day. Goodbye.

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