Thousands of anti-migrant protesters march in South Africa

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0:40Hello and welcome to NewsHour. It's coming to you live from the BBC World Service studios in central London. I'm Tim Franks. It's been a tense day in South Africa. Extra security has been deployed across the country on a day when anti-immigration campaigners had announced was the deadline for all undocumented migrants to leave. Amid fears of violence, tens of thousands have already departed. Just today, a third group of hundreds of Nigerians were brought out on an evacuation flight organised by the Nigerian government. On the streets of South Africa, thousands of anti-immigrant protesters marched, some holding sticks and other traditional weapons.

1:25The sound of protests across South Africa today. For years, immigrants in South Africa have attested to a climate of fear and intimidation from vigilante groups. Memories have also been seared by the events of almost 20 years ago when more than 60 people died during a wave of rioting against non-South Africans. Although, as you'll hear in a few minutes, one of the government's senior ministers dealing with immigration insists that that episode has been vastly overblown. First, though, we're going to bring you a voice of one of those who say it's not just about today. It's about day in, day out, living in dread.

2:02She's a mother in Cape Town with two young kids. She first came to South Africa illegally as a teenager from Malawi. She applied for asylum status and was turned down. She's since married someone with South African citizenship. That was back in 2016. and despite that, it took her until last year, so nine years, before she was finally given her residency papers. I would tell you her name, but she's too terrified to share it. So, given that she does have a full right to stay in the country, does she feel affected by today's anti-immigrant protests? Yes, very much so, because the atmosphere, even now, if you go out, there's no one out, the shops are closed to where I'm staying, so people are just in doors and I don't know if we feel protected enough like if there won't be violence don't know yet Have you yourself experienced any trouble from people who suspect that you have come from abroad or want to know what your status is anything like that?

3:12Just verbal harassment nothing much like you enter a taxi and then they immediately change what they were saying they would talk and what does that mean means you need to go you need to go you must go you should go and what do you do when when people start saying that to you we just stay quiet because at this moment they don't really care they won't even ask you if you have a paper or not as long as you're just someone who doesn't speak the same language as them or you're just someone from another country, you need to go. Whether you have papers or you don't have papers, they're not even asking any questions.

3:54How does it make you feel about living in South Africa and bringing up your kids there? Right now it doesn't feel safe. I'm sorry to hear that. Does it mean that you and your family, well, you and your husband, and your kids are obviously far too young, but thinking about whether to stay? We're thinking of staying if the situation is going to get better, but if the situation is as it is right now, we're going to go back. I'm due to speak to a minister in the South African government shortly. If there were a message that you would like them to hear, what would it be? I would ask them to protect us because they would say they're doing their job, they're protecting us, but they are not everywhere.

4:51And also since this thing started, they know the instigators. They are just not going to them and stopping this. This could have been stopped before it got to where we are to this point. If that's the case, why do you think they haven't? I don't know if they're also scared that if they do that and then it will cause a havoc if maybe they arrest the people who are starting the leaders of all this. I do not know. Do you have a job at the moment? I mean, do you feel that you're contributing to the South African economy? Yes, I feel like I'm contributing. What do you do? Do you have a job? Yes, I do have a job.

5:41Are you able to share with me what that is? I won't feel safe saying it, but I pay my taxes, so I am contributing to the economy, yes. I have also a side business I'm running. It's registered. I pay my taxes as well. But it's remarkable that we're not saying your name on air, but you're feeling too scared even to tell me what sort of job you've got as well. That says something. Yes, right now they would find out. That migrant mother who lives in Cape Town, too scared to give me her name or a job. Mamaloko Kabayi is Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development in South Africa. I spoke to her this morning and asked her how the government is responding to the demonstrations.

6:38As the state said, this is not a deadline set by the government, but also a day that is normal. We've gone out to assure our citizens, but also our foreign nationals who are within the country, that the state will do within its powers to ensure that everyone who is within the borders of the republic is protected. We have made sure that law enforcement agencies across the country are actually deployed. There's not been major incidences across the country as the time we are speaking. Marches have started in three provinces as we speak, and those others are just picketing. We do not have anything, but our buses have been moving people who feel unsafe, and we've been transporting them so that we can process them, working together with the embassies so that we can make sure that they're travelling back home, those who would want to leave the borders of the Republic.

7:32So there's a big security presence today. You say that you want to ensure that everyone is protected. The argument that a lot of people are using inside South Africa, but also outside, I mean, from the Nigerian government to the Secretary General of the United Nations, is that on many other days over recent years, migrants in South Africa have not felt protected. There's been a culture of intimidation, of xenophobia, of violence, of abuse. What do you say to that, that this government has not done enough to protect those who are in South Africa with whatever status but nonetheless are being intimidated by these gangs?

8:21It's not correct to say that. You'd remember the last incident of this nature where we could say that there was an incident is 2008. Since then, we've never had. Migration challenge is for all of us globally, and we've got to try and ensure that we manage it correctly. When citizens feel that they are unemployed, naturally, I mean, we would have seen marches, whether it's Europe, whether it's in the Americas. We are not different as South Africa. But what we have been doing is consistently ensuring that where there is a breaking of law, we have records of those that we have arrested who are ringleaders, who are leading, as long as evidence shows that they've literally led to an attack of an individual or even a death of an individual or any intimidation.

9:13So where there's evidence, we have acted. It's not correct to say that we have done this only for today. Today is because they had called it for a shutdown. And that's why we had to deploy. And it's within the policies and the laws of the republic. Understood. I mean, just to be clear here, you mentioned 2008. I mean, that was when dozens of migrants were killed. I mean, to say that there have been no incidents since then stretches belief, doesn't it? I mean, lots of countries do have protests and debates about levels of immigration. That's definitely the case. What you don't see in many other countries are gangs going door to door, demanding people's papers and threatening to detain them and arrest them.

10:022008 is not dozens of people. I don't know which figures are using when you say dozens. It's not correct. We had to work together, for example, at that time. More than 60 people were killed in a wave of anti-immigrant violence that spread. That's not correct. No? That's a figure. I'm not so sure where you get it. It's not from South Africa. Let's rather use accurate figures that the state has released. When one life is lost, it's one too many that I acknowledge. But at least let's stick to accurate figures because the numbers, when they are exaggerated, and that's what becomes a problem. I've checked and it has been, I wasn't wrong.

10:38It has been very, very widely reported, including by independent institutions in South Africa, as well as across the world, that that violence in 2008 left more than 60 people dead, many of them were foreign nationals, and it was fuelled by xenophobia. No, it was not 60 people that were dead, that I can assure you. We had less than 30 people that were killed. OK. That's not 60. That's not correct. Let me come to the issue of what state does. The state continues to work in communities in all the work that we do. Hence, we're talking about law enforcement agencies. We talk about ensuring that we protect citizens, but also migrants.

11:22And you'd understand South Africa, too, is one of the few countries where we do not have refugee camps, where we do not have asylum in camps. We have integrated them within our communities. But to say that foreign nationals in our country do not feel safe, I don't think so. With the greatest respect, Minister, I've just spoken to... We just had 8 ,000 people arriving. We've seen 8 ,000 foreign nationals arriving in South Africa. And there's also been lots of people leaving South Africa as well. And with the greatest respect, Minister, I mean, I have just spoken to a Malawian woman who didn't want to give her name because she's terrified.

12:01She didn't even want to tell me what job she holds because she's terrified about somebody triangulating the information and tracking her down. She has the right to reside in South Africa. She's married to a South African, but she says it's terrifying at the moment. She's terrified for herself, terrified for her children. She endures a huge amount of abuse with people just telling her to leave the country. I realise you could say, well, that's just one person I've spoken to. But you hear this time and time and time again. This culture of fear is quite widespread in South Africa. It seems that from what you're saying that you simply don't recognise that.

12:42No, not recognise is not factual, it's not widespread. What we have seen is a lot of information, misinformation that is done to damage the integrity of the world. And I'm not disputing the fact that there will be those incidences. And I can acknowledge here, we had a group of people that went to a Congolese house. We have arrested them, as I speak. Where there's been incident of intimidation, where there's been incident of committing of illegal activities, we have arrested, whether it's South African nationals or non-South African. And that was Mamaloko Kubayi, Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development in South Africa, with a big brief within government to look at issues of immigration.

13:26You're listening to NewsHour from the BBC.

13:37Coming up on the programme, as Venezuelans continue the search for survivors, many are saying that they feel let down by the authorities. They are all I have. I just want to find them at any cost. There were no machines or rescue sent. It's like you've been left on your own to search for your loved ones. That report from La Guaya of the coastal town, worst hit by the earthquake, coming up in about 15 minutes. Our main headline from the BBC newsroom this hour, NATO's chief has welcomed Britain's defence modernisation plan as it becomes the latest country to pivot towards drone warfare. And thousands of anti-immigration protesters are on the streets of South Africa amid a heavy security presence over fears that demonstrations could descend into xenophobic violence.

14:39You're with NewsHour. It's live from the BBC. I'm Tim Franks. It's an old truism of the World Cup that the competition doesn't really get going until the knockout stages. But my goodness, it's now got going with the marquee result on Monday being the once mighty Germany, four-time winners being dumped out of the competition by Paraguay. And for those who follow these things, with the added historical twist of Germany, who have never lost a penalty shootout at the World Cup, doing just that, losing a penalty shootout at the World Cup. But all this, along with the Netherlands losing to the African champions Morocco, got us wondering about whether there's another historical trend in train here, and that is of the narrowing of the gap between the traditional footballing powerhouses and other parts of the world.

15:27Rob Palmer is a veteran football commentator and former player, What's his view? The footballing world is getting an awful lot smaller. I was looking back to the first World Cup that I commentated back in 1994, and I think there were only a couple of African teams there. At the time of speaking, nine out of ten of the African teams had made it through to the knockout stages, which just proves how much the game has developed on that continent. You're looking in South America as well. You're looking at the scare that Japan gave against Brazil. In previous World Cups, you know the dominant teams.

15:59that you know that it's going to be Italy and Germany and the Netherlands and England and the old favourites now. You're looking at these teams, you're looking at Congo and you're looking at Senegal, you're looking at Paraguay, had a great result as well. And you see teams like Egypt, one of the best players in the world is playing for Egypt. And these days you can stick a pin in the map and the best players in the world can come from anywhere on that globe. Whereas previously there'd be little kind of hotspots around the world. How has that happened? I think it's because directors of football, owners, those that are making the decisions have realized that the world is a big place.

16:30These days, I'm a commentator. In my previous life, when I was young, I was a footballer and played at Derby County. And then I got a scholarship to go to America. When I walked into my college team in America, the best players in our team were from Nigeria, Liberia, Kenya, and my roommate was from Colombia. Those guys these days, 18, 19 years of age, will be playing of a top European club. They would have been picked up at an early age because they've spread the field of scouting. They've got this pool of talent that's playing at the highest level week in, week out for clubs. But is there also better infrastructure nationally?

17:05Everything has leveled up. The level of coaching, the understanding of a game. There was, of course, the famous incident back in 1974 when Zaire were playing against Brazil and the Zaire player broke from the wall and kicked the ball away before the Brazilian players could actually take the free kick. The commentator then was saying, I think he said it was African ignorance, unfortunately, but he talked to the African player and he said he actually meant it to time waste. But there was this ignorance back then. But you now look at DR Congo and if you're facing them, you're absolutely petrified because they are one of the best coach, best drilled, organised teams there decades ago that the guys were literally coming over and taking a pounding.

17:43And that was Rob Palmer, football commentator. And just to bring you up to date, we've got today Ivory Coast against Norway, France against Sweden in the last 32 knockout round. And then much more tomorrow, including the small fact of England against the Democratic Republic of Congo.

18:15It's been five days since the twin earthquakes that struck Venezuela and rescue attempts to find people trapped below collapsed buildings are continuing but there's been criticism of the government headed by Delcey Rodriguez and its slow response as well as obstruction of attempts by opposition parties and local NGOs to help and deliver aid. The Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corina Machado has said that she'll do whatever it takes to return to the country to help coordinate earthquake relief efforts. But she's accused the government of blocking her attempts to return. Vanessa Neumann was the former official representative of Juan Guaido in London, the previous Venezuelan opposition leader during President Trump's first term in office.

18:55Vanessa joins us from Madrid. Vanessa, welcome to the programme. What do you make of these criticisms of the Venezuelan government's response? Thank you so much for having me on. And I really appreciate the coverage because it's really important. And as you know, Madrid has a very strong direct line to what's going on in Venezuela because everybody here has relatives there. This is a huge diaspora. So it's almost a straight umbilical cord between here and Caracas. I think it's so we get daily feeds and comments. And we think and it's just, well, first of all, it's utterly disgraceful. But I hate to say I'm not surprised at all.

19:35I mean, you know, I think, well, you know, the fact that Diosdado Cabello was blocking the Americans and the American State Department even called it out. And as a rep, U.S. Representative Salazar also called out that they should bring, you know, complaints against Diosdado Cabello for impeding the American. Can access rescue team efforts in La Guaira. because they were filming. Within Venezuela, there are stories that they weren't filming, that they were actually smuggling drugs. Who knows? But the point is... You're talking about the Venezuelan defence minister. And, I mean, the US military has been allowed to reopen a port in Venezuela to help get aid to the worst-hit areas.

20:27The US Southern Command is saying a warship is now using the port of La Guayra. And, of course, La Guayra was the worst-affected region. So, I mean, that suggests that that's been unblocked. Well, that has been unblocked. But the reason why we have such a catastrophe in the first place is because of such massive corruption. I mean, Venezuela is a seismic country. We knew that there were earthquakes. They also get mudslides. And we had massive mudslides in 1999, which is actually what prompted the rise of Hugo Chavez and his election. Now, I think, you know, and then it turns out that these buildings that were, you know, part of supposedly one of the great benefits of electing these guys and the use of the oil money, it turns out that some of them have styrofoam in the middle and that they were actually just built for, you know, to maintain a paternalistic corruption system that maintained them in power.

21:22And the body and the corruption is written on the bodies of it's going to be written on the bodies of over 100 ,000 Venezuelans who are either dead or maimed or internally displaced because of this massive corruption. And the issue of Maria Carina Machado saying that she wants to get back to Venezuela and help coordinate rescue efforts. I mean, it's one thing for her to say, look, I want to go back to Venezuela and press my case to be able to fight an election and leave Venezuela. But I mean, it's a little bit performative, isn't it, for her to say, I want to get back and help coordinate rescue efforts.

21:59She's not going to be able to do that. Well, of course it's performative, because of course it's performative, and you'll forgive me, but because it is, she doesn't command anyone who can do this work. I mean, the one thing that has been shown to Venezuela is that we are very, very grateful to foreigners. We're very grateful to the Americans, to the Brits, to the French, to the Italians, to the Spanish, to the Dutch, to even the Czechs who have turned up to help. Wouldn't she show rather more statesmanship by not trying to put herself front and centre right now? Well, I would think so. I mean, I would think so.

22:35I think the situation is politicised enough by virtue of the massive humanitarian disaster basically prompted by corruption. You know, bad buildings for the poor. And I think that... And it's not... Just saying to be solidarity, but who is she going to organise? Right. And just to be clear, Vanessa, I mean, this isn't sour grapes over the fact that she appears to have more purchase than your man did, Juan Guaido. What, more purchase? Yeah, I mean, yes, but the point is, if you don't command troops and you don't command a rescue team the way the foreigners do, the Americans and the Brits included, then what are you doing?

23:20We do have some groups down there, like Jesus Armas, who is organising even local volunteer inspectors to at least inspect the buildings. Vanessa, we'll have to leave it there. But thank you very much for joining us. Vanessa Neumann. When you hear the phrase made in China, what do you think? I'm Tristan Redman. And I'm Asma Khalid. And together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. And today on our show, we look at the origins and evolution of made in China, because it actually wasn't inevitable. What we're talking about is the world's largest communist nation is at the beating heart of the capitalist system.

24:02For more, listen to The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

24:11Welcome back to News Air. As neighbouring Uganda and the Democratic Republic of Congo continue battling Ebola outbreaks, the authorities in nearby Tanzania say they're taking no chances. Officials insist they're ready if the virus crosses into the country. But along the vast Lake Tanganyika shoreline, concerns remain over our unofficial border crossings. Sami Awami sent us this report on Tanzania's preparations. I'm at a border post called Mutukula. Now the room I'm currently in is on the Tanzanian side, where there is a temperature scanning machine used to check the temperatures of passengers entering Tanzania.

24:52The broadcast you can hear in the background continuously airs public health messages about Ebola. There are numerous posters displayed on the walls. We are treating the Ebola issue with the seriousness it deserves. Border manager Elipidus Bigirwamungu says the focus is on raising awareness and ensuring everyone crossing the border follows the health measures in place. Our main job is to raise awareness and ensure that everyone follows the required procedures. Many of the truck drivers crossing here say those messages are getting through and they now know how to protect themselves. We have received sufficient training here at the border on how to protect ourselves against Ebola.

25:40This disease is real, and we pray that Almighty God will protect us. But stopping Ebola at the border is only part of the response. Here in Kikoma, I'm in a room at a local hospital where around 100 frontline health workers, from rapid response teams to nurses and other medical staff, and they are being trained and prepared to respond. if a suspected Ebola case emerges. Who responds first? Who's responsible for what? And how do you ensure that patients get the care they need and fast? The training has been very good. It has allowed us to put into practice what we previously learned in books, giving us much more hands-on experience.

26:31If we receive an Ebola patient, we know how to handle them properly and prevent the disease from spreading further. The training is giving frontline workers confidence, but among Kigoma residents, concern about Ebola remains. We spend our days here serving the Congolese people who live around us. They are our customers. I feel worried. Many people travel from there to here. Honestly, we live in fear. Health officials say they understand those concerns, but insists that the country has strengthened its preparedness from the border to local health facilities. Dr. Damas Kayera is Kigoma Regional Medical Officer.

27:12We've trained our health workers. They are ready. We've provided them with equipment so that they can prevent infection to them and to the society. But Kigoma's vast lake border means that people can still enter Tanzania through unofficial crossing points without the knowledge of authorities. And there was Sami Awami on Tanzania trying to prepare for Ebola.