Trump says US Iran ceasefire is over

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The CIA has been carrying out covert operations around the world for decades. How has it shaped how people feel about the US? I'm Asma Khalid. And I'm Tristan Redman. And together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As part of our series to mark the United States' 250th birthday, we're exploring the CIA's hidden history. Do you think the word of the United States will be trusted in years to come? For more, check out The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:41Hello and welcome to NewsHour live from the BBC World Service in London. I'm Rebecca Kesby. Is the war between the United States and Iran back on? Last night, the US military says it hit 80 Iranian targets, including air defences, coastal radar facilities and fast boats, in response to the targeting of three oil tankers navigating the Strait of Hormuz on Tuesday. Iran has not admitted responsibility for those attacks, but it's already launched. Fresh attacks on US military sites in Bahrain and Kuwait. One senior commander this morning promised a crushing response to the latest US strikes. Well, President Trump is speaking again at the NATO summit in Turkey.

1:23He's currently speaking about Ukraine. We're keeping across developments on that and we'll bring you the latest. But first, speaking earlier this morning at the NATO summit in Ankara, President Trump told reporters that as far as he's concerned, the ceasefire with Iran is now over and the memorandum of understanding is dead. To me, I think it's over. I don't want to deal with them anymore. They're scum. You know what scum is? They're scum. They're sick people. They're led by sick people. And they're vicious, violent people. And if they had a nuclear weapon, they'd use it. As far as I'm concerned, it's over.

2:01I'll speak to our negotiators. They want to negotiate. They're good people. Steve Whitcoff, Jared Kushner. But they have to come back to me. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a waste of time dealing with them. They're liars. We make a deal. And if I make a deal with him, we have a deal. And he goes out, he talks. We make a deal. Everyone's agreed. No nuclear weapon. We make a deal. They go outside, talk to the press. They say, we never even talked about it. There's something wrong with them. They're cuckoo. Mr. Trump, they're addressing reporters alongside the NATO Secretary General Mark Rutter, who supported Mr.

2:36Trump, saying that the US strikes were absolutely necessary. Well, let's get the latest now on these clashes in the Gulf. We're joined live by the BBC's Carrie Davis, who's in Jerusalem. Carrie, first of all, what can you tell us about these strikes from either side and how much damage has been done? Well, of course, this all stems back to a few days ago when these three tankers were struck when they were crossing the Strait of Hormuz and then the US blamed Iran for them. Although, interestingly, Iran never actually claimed responsibility for the attack. Instead, we got a comment from the foreign minister who said that commercial vessels using routes not coordinated with Iran or tampering with the ship's tracking faced a risk of collision were the words that he used to describe it.

3:17The US, however, was very adamant this was Iran. They then revoked the waiver that they had previously issued which would have allowed oil sanctions on Iran to be lifted, so oil sanctions are essentially back on again. And then last night they announced that they were attacking the Iranian air defences, commander control networks, coastal radar sites. They also said that they hit more than 60 Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps small boats. So this was essentially done to try to limit the ability of Iran to be able to hit other vessels transiting the strait. It's quite a strong reaction from America in this position.

3:58Iran then responded and said that they had launched airstrikes on Bahrain and on Kuwait as well. So initially, I think a lot of people thought, well, this looks like another tit for tat. We've been here before. Maybe this is now resolved. And then, of course, we had the comments from President Trump. Well, we've had further comments from President Trump in the past few minutes on the subject of Iran. He's quoted on the AFP news agency as saying, we're going to hit them hard tonight. So it sounds as if there could be ongoing strikes. We already know that he says, as far as he's concerned, the ceasefire is over.

4:32He did say that his envoys could continue to keep talking, Carrie, though, to the Iranian delegation, but that he thinks it's a waste of time. What does that really mean and where are the talks at the moment? Well, this has been the confusing part is that President Trump has obviously on the one hand said the ceasefire is over and it's all dead, but on the other hand seems to have kept the door open a crack to say, well, they can continue to have these talks even if I think they're wasting everybody's time. So that's been a confusing part. It's almost been a bit like the carrot and stick approach that we'd heard when we had this weird in between time and we had a ceasefire, but no memorandum of understanding where we had a continual messaging that seemed to come from President Trump, sometimes talking about when if Trump, if Iran did do a deal with the US, that they would have wonderful things that would be open to them.

5:18If they didn't, there would be absolute destruction. Is this a negotiating position or is it the fact that, as we heard, President Trump sounds incredibly frustrated with Iran? Is he genuinely about to restart all of this hostility that we saw, obviously, back at the beginning of February? Well, we'll have to see. Kari, thanks so much. That's Kari Davis there for us in Jerusalem. And we're keeping across this. We'll have more analysis in just a moment. But a short time ago, we managed to get an Iranian perspective on all of this. I've been speaking to Nasser Hadian, Professor of Political Science at the University of Tehran.

5:52And I asked him what he made of these latest exchanges of fire and President Trump's comments that the ceasefire is over. As you know, there were some forces basically which obliged both sides to go for a memorandum of understanding and later for an agreement. So the forces still are present. And I guess no matter the skirmishes now, I guess the mediators are going to get involved and they're going to basically come up with a sort of agreement again to stop both sides from attacking one another. So because they have already tested the war, they have seen they cannot achieve their objectives through war.

6:35And going to war this time, a major war like the last time, is going to be very, very expensive, very different from the last time for both sides. America certainly is going to attack our infrastructures. And Iran is going to expand the war beyond the Middle East. And other places are going to get involved. and a lot of infrastructures of other countries are going to be attacked. Many people are going to be killed. So that would be stupid of both sides to want to go back to war again. So I guess both Iran and the U.S. are overplaying their card and they are basically making a very huge mistake.

7:17Iran is making a mistake by emphasizing so much on the management of the strait because the most important factor for us is the geopolitical, geostrategic game of the strait. We have already achieved that. And insisting on management of the state of Hormuz is not a right decision. From the American side, that's very wrong on the American side as well, to try to establish a pathway through Omani's water in order to preempt Iran from later claiming the management. So these things should have been discussed in a 60 days negotiation. So that's a very, I don't want to use the word, but anyway, that's a silly mistake of both sides.

8:05This is really interesting, Professor. You said there were elements on both sides that were wanting to negotiate, but maybe harder line elements that are still backing out. And I guess President Trump for the Americans would be on the harder line side there. But I mean, it's part of the problem that each side has interpreted the memorandum of understanding differently. They took what they wanted out of it to tell their own people. And perhaps there wasn't enough detail in it to start with. Yeah, that's OK. But I still, you know, why they had the memorandum of understanding? Because they knew that it's impossible to continue.

8:42Well, that's very costly to continue. So that's why they both wanted it. I know there are not very many details. Or rather, it's very vague, very much interpretable by each side, different way. Even the most detailed agreement would be matter for or subject to interpretation. But this is a vague one. But still, it's OK. Because to me, both sides needed this agreement, needed this normal understanding. So that's why they should come up with some sort of a mechanism to control it. I know President Trump is very much under pressure from the radicals or from the forces which didn't want or did not agree with the MOU.

9:22And the same thing here. If you look at what happened yesterday to President Pazeshkian and Foreign Minister Arachid in a demonstration or in the morning, they were attacked. One of them verbally, the other one even physically. So I know both sides under pressure. But I think that's the right decision. They have to stick to the decision. Is it clear what happened when those tankers were hit yesterday? I mean, there's been no official admittance from the leaders in Iran that they were responsible. Certainly, we are not going to agree. We are not going to attack. That was another mistake of Iran attacking Qatar, which has been very helpful to us.

9:58It's a mistake attacking Saudi Arabia, which has been trying to be helpful. But still, you know, in general, I guess one of the reasons that Iran attacked those countries, because the U.S. bases aren't there. And U.S. bases are basically a part of the war. And they are helping the U.S. I understand that. But that was for the war, but not for the MOU, and now which is a ceasefire. That's not right on our part, you know, to attack these ships. And as I said, they feel that U.S. is doing it very much intentionally. There was no reason for the U.S. trying to come up with a pathway for the ships in the Omanis water.

10:38No, they could have been there for another couple of months. So, Mr. Galabaf, the parliamentary spokesperson, one of the chief negotiators for the Iranian side was talking about this. And he said that the U.S. had violated the Memorandum of Understanding by, I guess, by going, taking ships through that Omani route. Is that what you understand? Yes, exactly. That one and plus the Hezbollah. So these are the two main reasons they feel that America violated it. Of course, they understand why they violated it, because of the pressure within the US. That's the same thing here. I understand why they take these actions, because of the pressure.

11:21Khalifa is in a position where she should rise to the occasion and take the leadership. It can be a comma when they wrote the history books. It can be a paragraph. That's his decision, to provide the leadership. Are you saying that there's a division then in the Iranian government between people like Mr. Ghalabaf? Not in the Iranian government. There are a group, a very minority group, about 20, 25 members of the parliament. They have some control over Iran's radio and television. And they are a very small portion of the principalists. and those who gather in the squares at night and in the streets, a portion of about 20 % of them.

12:02But the rest are behind Kalibov, are behind the negotiation. You should use this opportunity. He has the absolute majority. I cannot remember as a political observer for half a century, I never remembered that there was such a consensus behind one individual. So that's why I feel that Kalibov should provide the necessary leadership to get us over this important part of our history. And in terms of the military, are you confident that the government has control over the military? Because if you are... Yes, absolute, absolute confidence, yes. They are a part of the Supreme National Security Council.

12:44All of the commanders, all, all of them supported the MOU. Out of 13, only one individual opposed. 12, including all commanders, supported the MOU. So that's why I say Khalibov should take this opportunity, rise to the occasion, provide the necessary leadership, and get us through this stage. That's Nasser Hadiyan there, Professor of Political Science at the University of Tehran, speaking to us about an hour or so ago. As I mentioned, President Trump is currently speaking at that NATO summit in Ankara. He's actually speaking with President Zelensky at the moment. So the topic is mostly Ukraine.

13:26We're going to come back to other issues around NATO later this hour. But that's going on at the moment. We're keeping across it.

13:39Coming up in the programme, as heat waves continue to hit much of Europe and North America, we hear about the environmental problems caused by trying to keep cool with battery-powered fans. We've seen a rise of the international online marketplaces, which are selling technology at remarkable prices. You don't need to be a product engineer to think, how is this product being made? How robust is it? So they're often breaking down incredibly quickly. People are just getting rid of them where they break. And that can be in public bins or it could be at home. They could be putting them in the wrong recycling bin at home.

14:12More on that to come in the next half hour or so. our headlines as we've been hearing. President Trump says he believes the ceasefire agreement with Iran is over, describing the Iranians as scum after renewed fighting in the Gulf. And Mr. Trump was speaking at that NATO summit in Ankara where his criticism of European allies has also made some waves. And we'll come back to that too.

14:39You're with NewsHour Live from the BBC. I'm Rebecca Kesby. Let's go back to our top story Now, that line from President Trump this morning while he attends that NATO summit in Ankara, Turkey, that as far as he's concerned, the ceasefire with Iran is over. In the past few minutes, Mr. Trump has also said we're going to hit them hard tonight in reference to Iran. Let's speak to Dr. Sanam Vakil. She joins us live, director of the Middle East and North Africa programme at the think tank Chatham House here in London. Sanam, thanks for coming on. I mean, how serious are these comments coming from Mr.

15:16Trump today? Good afternoon. It's good to be with you. I mean, certainly they're serious, but I think that they're also past precedent. President Trump has spoken impatiently or negatively about the Iranian leadership in the past. And so I think we should just take a pause. And we've also seen past rounds of conflict, including serious conflict, since the ceasefire came to fruition on April 8th. I'm not saying that we're not on a dangerous precipice. We very well could be. But there is still an opening or an off ramp for negotiators to try to quickly cool things down. and I fully expect further military strikes, but it doesn't mean that our war is about to recommence either.

16:09Right. I mean, it is quite confusing though, isn't it? Because as Mr. Trump said himself, you know, the talk should continue, though he doesn't hold out much hope. But I don't know whether you heard our interview just a few minutes ago with Nasser Hadiyan, Professor of Politics at Tehran University. It was quite interesting what he had to say about the divisions in both leaderships of the US and Iran. Yes, and he's quite right. There is, of course, pressure in Iran to maintain control over the Strait of Hormuz and to continue their leverage. Despite the MOU, Iran is worried that the US and other players are trying to whittle away Iran's leverage since the war and thereby put further pressure on Iran.

16:58And so, you know, that's also reflecting through comments and criticism within the Iranian landscape. And in the U.S. as well, there has been a long history of U.S. conservatives and neoconservatives that have been critical of dealmaking with Tehran. So in a way, both sides slightly mirror each other. What's problematic is that there is no sustained deconfliction line, despite the intent to set one up, and that negotiations are sort of on again, off again. And so in this climate, it's going to be very volatile. And in spite of the heated language from both sides today, not just from Mr. Trump, we heard from one general saying that they were going to have a crushing response to the United States strikes.

17:46I mean, the truth is part of the reason they came to this deal is because both sides really needed it to end. Yes. You know, both sides needed a breather. Both sides perhaps also needed to replenish stockpiles. Populations and the economy were being impacted. But it doesn't mean that this necessarily was a formal end to the war. I think that the MOU and the ceasefire is really a testing ground for commitment to negotiations, seeing what each side can really deliver. While, of course, maybe in tandem to that, they're prepping for another round. Very good to speak to you, Dr. Sanam Vakil. Thank you so much for joining us live with your reaction to these events, which are unfolding fairly quickly.

18:34Dr Sanam Vaikil, Director of the Middle East and North Africa Programme at Chatham House there.

18:44Now then, how do you follow a box office smash like Oppenheimer that swept the boards at the Oscars only two years ago? Well, the acclaimed director, Sir Christopher Nolan, has gone back to ancient Greek myth, enlisting some of the biggest names in acting for his retelling of The Odyssey, shot on real ships in real seas in six countries across the world. Matt Damon plays the hero, Tom Holland, his son. The story is nearly 3 ,000 years old. Well, our culture editor, Katie Razzle, met Nolan and some of his stars. Everyone wants to work with Christopher Nolan. We're running more. Matt Damon plays Greek hero Odysseus.

19:26Help me go home. He said, I'd like to offer you the lead role. And so I just said, yeah. And he goes, don't you want to hear what it is? I think his king is coming back. No, he's not. Anne Hathaway is Odysseus' wife, Penelope. When I got the call, it was how quickly can you get on a plane to Los Angeles because I live in New York with my family. And I said, I think I've missed all the flights today, but how about tomorrow? Unlike Hathaway and Damon, Tom Holland as their son. My dad is coming home. And his wife, Zendaya, who plays the goddess Athena, are first timers in a Nolan movie. You yearn for that opportunity and then you get the opportunity and that comes with a lot of pressure.

20:05Even Christopher Nolan was a little intimidated after the success of Oppenheimer. You're talking about turning theory into a practical weapon system faster than the Nazis. You have ways of coping with it. My son walked into my office while I was writing on the Odyssey and said, where are your Oscars? And I said, well, I'm trying to write a new project and if I've got Oscars sitting there on the shelf, think about how daunting that'd be. And he looked at me and said, but you didn't win for writing. Just from the jump, I thought this isn't the Penelope that I've come to expect. This is a volcano of a woman.

20:37Promise me you will come back. What if I can't? Anne Hathaway's character has waited 20 years for her husband to return from war while watching her son grow up without him. It was really interesting to kind of translate what my idea of being a loving mother is to 3 ,000 years ago. to, I know this is going to sound silly, but go to a pre-therapy world. You know, there's no such thing as gentle parenting in ancient Greece. The stakes were really, really high. She's already been separated from one great love in her life, and so I think that makes her cling more tightly to the other great love of her life, her child.

21:13There are big themes to be read into this film. What makes a man? The trauma of war, and the ancient Greek tradition of hospitality to strangers. It's essentially a golden rule. It says, treat others as you would be treated. And when that principle of respecting others is ignored or abused, things fall apart. Have we lost that hospitality that the Greeks talk about? There's a danger that we're not valuing it as we should. But if you think about it, it's so fundamental that if we'd really lost that, it would be chaos and anarchy everywhere around the world. I mean, it is what holds our society together.

21:53And when you're making a film like this, do you think about how it will be received by modern audiences and whether it is picking up something about our culture? No, I don't. But I also trust that if done right, that process will lead to something that does reflect the world we live in. What would he do if he came back here and find all these suitors in his house? Tom Holland's got two big films this summer, a new Spider-Man movie and The Odyssey, with its themes around masculinity that feel very timely. Maybe what you can learn from this movie about masculinity is that it comes in all shapes and sizes and there's no version of it that's perfect and that people are flawed.

22:30You seem very relaxed about the whole idea of what it is to be a man. I'm just living my life the way my parents raised me, which was to be respectful to anyone and everyone and to be humble, to enjoy your successes, to work hard and, you know, don't take anything for granted. What was new for you on this set? What did you learn on the Odyssey? I mean, I did a lot of sword fighting, which I loved. Useful in future life? I mean, if someone broke into my house, you're keeping a sword at home now. I have a cricket bat, actually, and I can wield that in a sword-like fashion. I think it's asleep.

23:11That report from our culture editor, Katie Razzle, on the new film coming out, The Odyssey. A couple of developments at the NATO summit in Turkey. President Trump says the US is to give Ukraine the right to make Patriot missiles. That development in the past few minutes. We're coming back to that summit after the news, which is up next.

23:39The CIA has been carrying out covert operations around the world for decades. How has it shaped how people feel about the U.S.? I'm Asma Khalid. And I'm Tristan Redman. And together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As part of our series to mark the United States' 250th birthday, we're exploring the CIA's hidden history. Do you think the word of the United States will be trusted in years to come? For more, check out the Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

24:13Welcome back to NewsHour. Now there's no shortage of action at the Men's Football World Cup at the moment, but fans of sitting down at virtual games will be pleased to know that the eSports World Cup gets started this week in Paris. About 2 ,000 of the best competitive gamers are taking part, and a flashy opening ceremony on the River Seine is on tonight. It's the first time the event, the biggest in global e-sports, has ever been held outside Saudi Arabia, as our reporter Andrew Rogers can explain.

24:47Welcome to Paris, where over the next seven weeks, the world's top professional gamers will compete for a record combined prize pot of$75 million. playing games like Call of Duty, Football Sim EAFC and Street Fighter. Plenty more too. There's 24 games in total as part of the line-up. Here's how it essentially works. Players are part of big multinational teams based around the world. Win an event and you get a cash prize and points. Get the most points by the end of the summer and you don't just get a big trophy. You get a bonus$7 million too. That's something these fans say is worth watching. Pretty amazing.