Uefa to boycott World Cups if Fifa plans approved

0:03Hello and welcome to NewsHour. It's coming to you live from the BBC World Service Studios in central London. I'm Tim Franks. And we've got some fascinating, chunky stories to get our teeth into today. An investigation into an appalling, dangerous leak of data by the British Ministry of Defence and what it's meant for thousands of Afghans. And also a key moment today in the contest to become the UN's next Secretary-General. Who it should be and how much it matters. We've got a couple of very interesting views to bring you in 30 minutes. But first, if you were listening yesterday, you'd have heard us lead the programme with the plan by the boss of world football, Gianni Infantino, the president of FIFA, to sell stakes in all FIFA competitions, competitions like the World Cup, to private investors, led by the brother of President Trump's son-in-law.

0:54Yesterday, Mr Infantino had written to all 211 national federations to say, if you back this move, you'll get$40 million each. If you don't, you'll get far, far less. Well, as I say, if you were listening, you'd have heard some of the dismay voiced by some former senior figures in the game, indeed formerly from inside FIFA. Today, it was dismay from key members of the current game. European football's governing body, UEFA, held an emergency meeting today and announced that if these plans were to go ahead, UEFA's 55 footballing nations would boycott future FIFA competitions. we voiced up some of their statement.

1:34The World Cup cannot be treated as an investment product. It is one of football's greatest sporting legacies. It has been built over generations by players, national teams and supporters across every continent. It is both irresponsible and indefensible that a proposal of such significance for football was conceived in secret and brought to the brink of approval without any meaningful consultation with those entrusted with stewarding the game. Nobody should be in any doubt. UEFA and its national associations will oppose these plans with absolute determination. Laura McAllister is a former captain of the Welsh national team and is currently vice president of UEFA.

2:14What was it like in the room today? I wouldn't describe it as an angry meeting. I'd describe it as a very purposeful meeting, but with a strong current of emotion because we in UEFA and every confederation across the world are the guardians or the custodians of the game. And we've all operated according to the principles and the ethics of football, which is putting the game first and putting supporters and fans and players and administrators first. And I think there was a real genuine shock about the proposal from FIFA to sell to private equity a share of the commercial side of world football.

2:50And especially when it comes to the crown jewels of the Women's and Men's World Cup. So there was a real purpose to the discussion this afternoon amongst all of the federations in Europe, whether they were small ones, medium-sized ones or large ones. And I think we were very clear that this was an historic moment for football. We've certainly issued very powerful statements expressing our opposition to the proposal this week, but it came to the moment where we really had to be on the right side of history and we were prepared to do whatever it takes to stop a really catastrophic intervention by FIFA in our game.

3:24Your statement is very clear that this was a unanimous decision, But I have to say I'm slightly surprised by that, given absolutely the presence of some of the smaller federations who might, you know, might benefit hugely from this promise of$40 million each. But also there was an interview that was given by the Czech Football Association president, David Trunda, who gave an interview a little earlier this week and said that actually he thought that he could see the positive impact of FIFA's intentions, as he put it, with this plan. He clearly seems to have changed his mind. Is that right? Well, I can't speak for an individual federation, obviously, but every single one of the 55 national associations that were present today expressed their opinion that this was the right course of action.

4:16And, you know, the way in which some of the financial side has been presented has been a little bit misleading, if you don't mind me saying, because FIFA generated revenue of around 15 billion dollars from this World Cup, which, of course, all of which should be invested back in the game. And it's a little bit disingenuous to talk about financial incentives as they have, as if the money doesn't already belong to the different national associations, not just in Europe, by the way, but across the world. But the most fundamental thing of all is that once you sell a part of the game to private equity, then you never get that back.

4:51And you know immediately that the principles upon which that organisation will operate will be different to the principles of equity, sustainability, participation, grassroots involvement, the development of the game in some of the poorest areas of the world. And so, you know, I think that's what really united people across the UEFA continent today. And I guess obviously you, along with everybody else who's involved in the game, will hope that it does not come to a boycott. But I mean, this is a decision that Gianni Infantino, the president of FIBA, will need to take pretty soon on whether he's going to press ahead with this.

5:28Because, I mean, just in October, there are the Women's World Cup playoffs due to be held. And I mean, the very real prospect, I guess, that if there is a standoff, European nations will not be there. Well, look, the ball is very firmly in FIFA's court now. This proposal was sprung upon us without due diligence, without proper governance or consultation, including with the European FIFA vice presidents who knew nothing of the proposal. So it's not our fault that this has been forced upon us, if you like, as a decision. But I really hope that FIFA take this incredibly seriously and read the room and listen to the most powerful confederation, which is UEFA, because we provide more of the teams for the World Cup finals, women and men's, and realise that without Europe, you know, there is no tournament, certainly not of the status and profile that it is currently.

6:23But nobody wants to boycott a major tournament. I mean, I'm Welsh and my national women's team will be playing off in the playoff matches this autumn for the possibility of being at their first ever World Cup in Brazil next year. So nobody wants to boycott a tournament. But this is really something for FIFA to solve now, given the way they've gone about this process and the way that they've pushed us into a decision of this magnitude. Can I just ask one other question, which is the other big event that's going to happen before the end of this year is the closing date for candidates to be the next FIFA president.

6:59Now, obviously, Gianni Infantino wants a third term, third consecutive term in office. He's previously seems to have secured the support of lots and lots of member federations. But I mean, in your opinion, can he continue as the boss of FIFA? Well, it's not for me to say, you know, my role is obviously as vice president of UEFA. And we've got our own elections next year. That will be up to the 211 federations across the world. and whether they see Gianni Infantino as the right custodian of the game to carry us forward in terms of developing the sport for girls and boys and men and women everywhere in the world.

7:41So let's see. But I mean, the most important thing for us now is to stop this proposal because it could have really posed an existential threat for the game. Laura McAllister, vice president of UEFA. Henry Winter is a vastly experienced football journalist. He currently writes for the World Soccer News website. what does he make of UEFA's bite back today? I was very surprised by the unanimity particularly as there have been sort of briefings or certainly smoke signals from the Czech FA and privately one or two of the other ones that they would actually take the money because some of them have debts some of them it's you know this 40 million dollars that 30 million pounds being dangled in front of them is quite a windfall from Infantino to some of these national associations.

8:28So for them to effectively turn that down, yeah, absolutely. Says also a lot about Seferin, the UEFA president's eloquence and basically his advocacy of what most people would see is really important to fight what Infantino is trying to bring in. And I mean this threat of a boycott, I mean I was saying to Laura McAllister And obviously, you know, the next thing that Pove's interview is the playoffs for the Women's World Cup in October. But actually beyond that, I mean, should this standoff continue? And I can't quite believe that it would. But I mean, the next Men's World Cup is supposed to be hosted in Portugal, Spain and Morocco.

9:13I mean, the idea that two of the host nations wouldn't be there, it sort of beggars belief, doesn't it? and not only two of the host nations the world champions themselves in spain were only 10 days after that you know the the world cup final i mean i was there and it was a it was a fantastic achievement by spain i mean listening to laura you know she spoke with uh with so much intelligence and but also empathy empathy for the athletes and she was obviously a player herself but you know there are a lot of athletes who are prepared footballers who are the women's footballers in particular who are trying to qualify, who are preparing.

9:49This is their huge dream, the World Cup. So I don't think Laura and the other 54 National Association heads will have taken this decision lightly because they know what this means. It also means a fair bit to them financially. But they've absolutely taken the right decision. And they've acted early on this. And they've sent a message out to the other five confederations that basically the scheme is dead in the water. Because you cannot have a World Cup without Germany four times winners, without Spain, the world champions, twice winners, without France, twice winners, without even Italy, who keep failing to qualify, but they've still won it four times.

10:28And dear old England, who today celebrates 60 years of hurt. But, you know, we've won. Broadcasters aren't going to have that. The commercial sponsors aren't going to have that. So for all those countries who are wavering around the world and thinking, oh, we could really do with this money, actually, the money might not flow because the World Cup isn't going to happen without the Europeans. And there has been this very strong statement from UEFA. But from what I understand, there has been criticism from some of the other confederations, CONCACAF, the Central American, the American one, and also the Asian Football Confederation as well.

11:05So hence my next question. I just wonder what you think this means potentially for the re-election of Gianni Infantino. Yeah, it's a really important question. A lot of people are asking that. And I imagine during the UEFA meeting earlier today, it would have been mooted who they can actually put forward as a potential rival challenger to Infantino in March when the re-election takes place, which Infantino thought was just going to be a sort of ceremonial walk in and get all the at least two thirds, probably more of the votes. but al-Khalife who is the chairman of PSG, I mean he could well be put up for it but I think that is really important.

11:52But what you say about the statements from the other confederations, a lot of it was actually they were complaining about the process and the fact that they hadn't been involved in it and that this was sprung on them by Infantino as much as the possibility of inviting venture capitalists into this great game and any issues with that. The football journalist Henry Winter, and in fact, since I recorded that interview with Henry just shortly before we came on air, CONCACAF, which is the confederation of football associations from North and Central America and the Caribbean, it did issue a statement saying all of its 41 members had rejected FIFA's proposal and expressed, in CONCACAF's words, deep concerns about the lack of due process surrounding the proposal, the artificially short deadline imposed in the absence of any review or approval by the relevant FIFA governance bodies.

12:44You're listening to NewsHour. It's coming to you live from London.

13:00And coming up on our programme, our correspondent travels by train across Iran, gathering the views of Iranians as their country is at war with the United States. It's in every Iranian's nature to adapt to the circumstances. It was hard, it was frightening, we were worried, we were anxious, but we still tried to live within those very conditions, to have a life, to keep our daily routine, to remain hopeful for the future. That report, a rare report from Inside Iran coming up in about 30 minutes. Our main headline from the BBC newsroom this hour, what is what we were just talking about? Two regional football confederations, Europe and the one from North and Central America and the Caribbean have challenged FIFA's plans to privatise the World Cup.

13:48Gianni Infantino's scheme to raise immediate cash looks like it is pretty heavily damaged.

14:01You're with NewsHour from the BBC World Service. I'm Tim Franks. It was a data breach that, when news of it belatedly emerged last year, beggared belief. They were the personal details of thousands of Afghans who'd applied to come to the United Kingdom in the wake of the Taliban takeover of their country. Afghans who were concerned that their lives and those of their families were at risk because they'd worked with the British and other Allied forces during the long years of those forces presidents inside Afghanistan fighting the Taliban. That news, as I say, had only emerged last year because of what's called a super injunction having been in place, a court order forbidding news outlets from reporting any sensitive information.

14:42Today, a scathing report by Parliament's cross-party defence select committee concluded that the data breach by the Ministry of Defence wasn't just deplorable, but in the committee's words, a foreseeable systemic failure. Tan Desi is the committee chair. Why foreseeable? The Ministry of Defence should actually stick to defence. It shouldn't have been left to run complex immigration casework schemes. That should have been the role of the Home Office. And that's why when this spreadsheet was actually sent by one individual, it was actually outside of prescribed government procedures in terms of Excel spreadsheets.

15:25That should never have happened. And that's why we had this sorry tale of information being leaked, not just about 150 applicants as the individual thought that he'd sent the spreadsheet of, but actually containing more than 80 and a half thousand applications. I mean, you said this should have been handled by the Home Office. But do you think it also says something about the culture within the Ministry of Defence? Well, as I said, the Defence Committee found that the Ministry of Defence should just stick to what they specialise in, namely defence. But what is also a problem is that not just in terms of the data breach itself, it was the subsequent super injunction which was granted.

16:11Now, a short period of secrecy may well have been justified, but the injunction endured for far too long. And just to be clear for our listeners around the world, I mean, the point about a super injunction is it means you can't even report the fact that there is an injunction against reporting on the initial mistake or the initial substantive issue. And that's why, Tim, that there was a serious cost in terms of democratic scrutiny, in terms of accountability, in terms of damaging public trust, because that super injunction lasted for almost two years. that was impacting the lives of thousands of Afghan allies.

16:49Those people, especially, for example, of the triples, the members of the Afghan special forces, who had bravely supported our courageous servicemen and women during operations in Afghanistan. I just want to ask you finally, if I may, I mean, we're about to run an interview with an Afghan who did make it to the United Kingdom. he said that the only contact that he's had from the government was the initial email to say please let us know who you are and confirm some details and we'll tell you whether you you were on this data leak since then he says he's had zero contact from the government which seems extraordinary well tim the situation that you've just described is completely unacceptable and unfortunately during our written and oral testimony that the Defence Committee received during the course of our inquiry there were many such instances even now eligible Afghans remain in hiding and some are now being told to make their own way to a third country at their own risk and expense and that's simply just not good enough and that's why I and the Defence Committee have also said that the UK must fix the systems that failed, but it must also act now for those who are still left behind.

18:07And above all, this is about whether the UK keeps faith with those it has promised to protect. Tan Desi, governing Labour Party MP, head of the Defence Select Committee. From what that senior MP had to say about, as he saw it, the government's systemic failure and its responsibility to fix it to that one Afghan case study I mentioned at the end of our interview. This man asked that we not use his name on air for obvious security reasons. How did he find out that he was in this situation? I was sent an email that my data has been breached and was sent a link to confirm. And then when I did that, it did tell me that my data has been breached.

18:52And after that, I've heard nothing from the government or anybody. So I was shocked then and seeing the report today, I'm shocked again, but by the entire failure of the system. And also for the lack of any care to contact us or put us and give us more information about it. Can you explain to me what it was that you were doing alongside British or American forces while they were present in Afghanistan? What was your job? I used to work for the British forces as a consultant for the Americans. And after that, I worked for many times in the international development arena, meaning working for USAID, working for the United Nations.

19:41And eventually I did become a civil servant, high ranking Afghan government official. And you came to the United Kingdom when? In September 2021, right after the collapse of Kabul. So just, yeah, just almost, it was just a month, wasn't it, after the Taliban took over. Just in terms of your concern about this, what, can you tell me, I mean, are you concerned about your safety in the United Kingdom? Or are you concerned about your family who are still in Afghanistan? Well, two things mostly. I'm not concerned about my own safety here in the UK, but I am concerned of my family members who still live in Afghanistan and concerned about the near future if I wanted to solve for any purpose, for an emergency, a family emergency or anything like that.

20:33From now on, we have said we won't be able to do that because we don't know how much of our data has been leaked and we don't know what the Taliban has now and which information they have on me right now. So that scares me and that is the concern. I don't want to sound as if I don't believe just how genuine your concern is, but I mean, look, we're five years on, nearly five years on from when the Taliban took over. Do you think that they are still really interested in revenge and retribution? Do you think there's a chance that actually maybe things have just moved on in Afghanistan? I don't think they would take it as a revenge.

21:20Well, first of all, it is happening on a daily basis. People who were associated with foreigners are still kidnapped by the current government and they are put in prison, they are tortured. That happens on a daily basis. Second, for the people whose data has been leaked by the MOD, That means a lot for the Taliban. It would consider us as kind of special people whose names were on this list and they were being on the list to be evacuated. Does it make you reconsider whether you should have cooperated with British and American forces? Oh, yeah, of course. I have many reasons to think about that.

21:58Back in 2001, when the American and British forces were coming to Afghanistan, the promises they made to us were completely different than the things they were saying in 2021. And just your distress over this leak apart, can I ask how things have been in the United Kingdom over the last few years? Have you been able to make a life for yourself here? I mean, the only thing that keeps me happy is looking to my kids, especially my daughters, that they are able to go to school. So I'm thankful to be here. And that's worth it. Other than that, it has been a real struggle. You know, starting over career-wise and everything else included in a different country at my age is not an easy thing to do when having a family, children to take care of.

22:42So it has been a difficult thing to do. But I think it's worth it just because my daughters are able to go to school. One Afghan man, father of two daughters, who was caught up in that data breach. Welcome back to NewsHour. Poland's Prime Minister Donald Tusk has said the fate of the war in Ukraine may be decided in the next 100 days. He was speaking after a very heavy night of attacks by Russia on Ukraine that killed at least eight people, including two children. One of the missiles landed in Poland. It created a 10-metre-wide crater deep inside the country. Radek Sikorsky is Poland's foreign minister, and he's been speaking to Sarah Montague, my colleague, with his reaction to these latest attacks.

23:27The Russians may be counting that they might break Ukraine's resistance by attacks on heating and power generation. They've destroyed 80 percent of Ukraine's electricity generating capacity, which, of course, affects not only civilians, but also production capabilities in the defense sector and so on. So Putin seems to be desperate in throwing his all at Ukraine. We've had another horrible night of attacks on Kiev and on Western Ukraine. And what we've also seen is a missile land in Poland. How significant is that? Because obviously it's a violation of Polish airspace and so NATO airspace. But do you imagine that it was done deliberately?

24:18We don't know. We are still researching the issue. Our prosecution service, our military services are gathering the debris and making sure that we know what we're dealing with. But we've had these incidents before. At the beginning of the war, a similar missile landed 10 kilometers from my house, which is in Western Poland. And, of course, you remember that in September last year, we had 21 drones over seven hours invading our airspace. We don't know whether this was a malfunction or deliberate, but at this stage we have to keep options open. So what should the response be? And both to the idea that you're setting up that Ukraine is at a particular point where Russia is going to apply pressure, but also that there has been this violation of Polish airspace?

25:13Well, we need to stick to our plan of assistance to Ukraine. What's particularly needed is effectors to the Patriot system, the latest PAC-3s. The most effective weapon against ballistic missiles is the PAC-3 system. And as allies, we have rallied around Ukraine with supplies, but clearly there are shortages. Right. I'm not clear that Ukraine is getting what it needs, though, to fend off any threat, and that from the sounds of it is immediate. Well, as the European Union, we have supplied Ukraine with a 90 billion euro loan. The assistance of Britain and other countries such as Norway is, of course, also appreciated.

25:59We also buy American weapons such as PAC-3s and others. But we need to reexamine what more can be produced and delivered. Right. I'm just interested in your hesitancy, Mr. Sikorsky. Look, these are weapons that are not in oversupplies. You know as well as I do that there is another war in the Middle East as well. And that was Radek Sikorsky, the Polish Foreign Minister. You're with NewsHour. It's coming to you live from London from the BBC World Service with me, Tim Franks. It is one of the biggest and the toughest jobs in global diplomacy, maybe the biggest, the job of Secretary General of the United Nations.

26:42And there needs to be a new one. At the end of this year, Antonio Guterres will complete his second and last term in office. Today, behind closed doors at the UN Security Council in New York, the first informal polling took place on who should take over. More on that in a moment. But let's give you a very brief flavour of some of the leading contenders. In May, four of the candidates took part in London at a Hustings event. My candidacy for Secretary General of the United Nations is grounded on one clear conviction. We must build the United Nations the world needs. I want to speak plainly this evening.

27:20Nobody wants another careful speech. We need action. This next election might arguably be the most consequential one in the history of the organization. I am the daughter of peace of two refugees of the Second World War that were able to have a dignified life because they found peace and respect. You heard very briefly from Michel Bachelet of Chile, Maria Fernanda Espinosa of Ecuador, Rafael Grossi of Argentina and Rebecca Greenspan from Costa Rica. In a moment, we'll hear from a former UN grandee on the sort of person now needed and his assessment of how Antonio Guterres has fared. First, though, the person who hosted those hustings in London, Jane Kinninmont.

28:11She's Chief Executive Officer at the United Nations Association UK. Before we get on to the candidates, though, why should we care about who the next UN Secretary General is? Well, I think everyone knows that this is a very messy time in world politics. And right now, the United Nations needs to be more important rather than less important, because the UN is the only organisation that brings all of the countries in the world together, at least to talk, and at best to try to solve problems together. But there's also a lot of fears that it could fade into irrelevance, especially if people don't see it making progress in bringing about a more peaceful world.