Ukraine's former defence minister repeats call for elections

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1:17Hello and welcome to NewsHour from the BBC World Service. We're coming to you live from London. I'm Paul Henley. First today, Ukraine's former defence minister has used an interview with the BBC to reiterate his call for the country to hold elections. In a video last week, Mikhailo Fedorov said democracy could not be held hostage by Russia. A source in President Zelensky's office said a call for elections demonstrated a lack of realism at a time when the focus was on fighting the war. Mr Fedorov was sacked by President Zelensky last month. He was seen as a young, modern and successful Minister of Defence, having been the main instigator of Ukraine's successful drone warfare against Russia.

2:01But he seemed to have fallen foul at the head of the army, and the President clearly felt he had to take sides in that dispute. Mikhailo Fedorov's sacking in July sparked nationwide protests. Here are some of his supporters. In my opinion, removing a truly effective person who fought corruption made important decisions and strengthened Ukraine's defence capabilities is one of the worst decisions made since the beginning of the full-scale invasion. This is also reflected in the statements of military personnel and well-known Ukrainian public figures following Fedorov's dismissal.

2:44Finally, when changes began taking place in our country, I started to believe that we could win this war. I began to see the results of those changes. And now those very changes are being reversed. I believe that in just six months, Mikhail Fedorov accomplished more than the Ministry of Defence had in 35 years of Ukraine's independence. Well, it was the BBC's Ukraine correspondent, Dan Johnson, who did that interview with the former Defence Minister Fedorov, in which he attacked the current state of democracy in the country by way of introduction to that interview. I asked Dan for a bit more background on his interviewee.

3:21This is Mikhailo Fedorov. He's been the man of the moment in Ukraine this week. He was the popular former defence minister, 35 years old, credited with transforming Ukraine's armed forces, bringing in his army of drones to replace manpower on the battlefield. He's credited with saving lives, but also with taking the fight increasingly to Russia with that technology enabling Ukraine to launch longer-range strikes. So there was disappointment when he was sacked. There were protests on the streets of Kyiv calling for him to be reinstated because he was seen to be such a positive influence, a reformer who was bringing about real success.

4:01But that hasn't happened. Earlier this week, his replacement was confirmed in the role. And the night before, Mr Fedorov released a video statement that went way beyond just calling for his job back. He described a crisis of governance. He talked about the levels of corruption in Ukrainian government and the impact that was having in terms of hampering the war effort and denying the front line the sort of equipment that was needed. He called for elections even though they are not allowed under martial law during wartime. He said that the practicalities of that needed to be confronted. Now, that largely fell flat.

4:37Even those who were supporting him recognised the threats that Russia would pose to that election, the difficulties of organising a free and fair vote that incorporates all the different elements of Ukrainian society at such a difficult time, and the divisions that that would open up in society here at a time when the thought is that Ukrainians need to be united. But when I sat down with Mikhail Fedorov yesterday, he told me he still believed it was right to talk about elections during wartime. A huge number of people started talking and supporting the idea of coming back to the democratic cycle.

5:16and I believe that neither Putin nor the president of any other country can speak about our own democracy. We are the only ones who will decide what we do going forward. That's what democracy is all about. If I cannot share my ideas and be open about them, then what are we fighting for? You really believe an election would be in the interests of Ukraine and not in your personal interests. It's definitely in my vested interests, because I want this war to be over and Ukraine to become a successful country. So yeah, this is in my interest for sure. But of course, it's also in the interest of all Ukrainians.

6:00But if you are asking whether it will be useful for my political future, if I were thinking about this, I would not have made the statement. What do you believe is the president's awareness of corruption? I think that probably you better ask the president about this. Do an interview with him, have a conversation with him in front of the world. Do you think he has questions to answer?

6:29I believe that he is ready. Why not? That's his responsibility to explain whether he was aware of all that or not. I don't want to make any assumptions. Do you think he may be a corrupt politician?

6:45Look, in all the time that I worked with him, not a single time I received from him any tasks that would go against the law. I can talk only about my personal experience. If you get the election you've called for, will you run for president? I cannot even think or talk about this right now. I will be ready to discuss it only when the elections take place in this country. Because if I think about running for president, I won't be able to stay unbiased. Is there more the United Kingdom could do to provide better support to Ukraine? I would like to thank the United Kingdom for your constant support, for your involvement in the coalition of the willing.

7:27I believe in delivering faster what was already announced, simplifying the bureaucracy and procuring more stuff produced in Ukraine. Governments are lagging behind and the reality on the ground. And this is the question not just for the UK. We don't need just announcements. We are better off with less, but better quality and faster. We need exactly what we need in this historical stage of our development. We don't need repairs of tanks when we no longer use tanks. Unfortunately, our losses, our blood, our military experience is beneficial to all of you. So we are not only fighting for our freedom and democracy, we are also fighting for your safety so you can build your own security system, which will guarantee your protection in any future wars to come.

8:13Mikhailo Fedorov talking there to the BBC's Dan Johnson. And Dan, there have been protests, as you mentioned, in Kiev in favour of this former minister. How much of a threat do you think he is to the government and specifically to the president? at the moment? Well, he was seen as someone who had popular support and may be able to mobilise that, if not to get his old job back, then to hold some sort of other influence. But it seems like he perhaps overread that level of support and overstepped the mark, because those protests, it's been announced, will end now that he is not going to get his defence minister job back.

8:54So that leaves the question open of what Mikhail Ofedorov's future is going to be. He told me that he still wants to play a role, that he still wants to promote technological alternatives to help Ukraine's effort in this war. He'll be going to America next week and hopes to meet Elon Musk there to try to get more from him in terms of using Starlink to launch longer-range attacks on Russia. But in terms of the threat to President Zelensky, he never directly criticized the president. He never accused him of personal corruption. But still, it's clear that they are not going to be working together in the near future.

9:29And the sort of statements that have been coming out of the president's office in response to the interview and the lines that Mr. Fedorov has given make it clear that that relationship now appears to have broken down, even though Mr. Fedorov says he still wants to support the government and help in Ukraine's war effort. He may now find himself in the wilderness. He didn't explicitly say he will run for president if and when there are elections, but he left the question open, and saying, well, when the time comes, if I'm in the right position and people think I can be trusted with that role, perhaps it's something I'll consider.

10:00So we may not have heard the last of Mikhail Ovedrov. The BBC's Dan Johnson reporting President Zelensky has today repeated his view that it wouldn't be appropriate to break with constitutional law and hold Ukrainian national elections as the war with Russia continues. Let's hear live now from Oleksandr Mureshko, who is a Ukrainian MP from President Zelensky's Servant of the People Party. He's also chair of the Ukrainian Parliament's Foreign Policy Committee. Welcome, Mr. Mareshko. Can you spell out why elections will not happen now first? Thank you for having me. First of all, to hold elections under martial law is prohibited by constitution, especially when we're talking about parliamentary elections.

10:43So it's prohibited by constitution. Second reason, it's politically impossible because the factions in the parliament, including factions which belong to opposition, have come to agreement that elections will be held after lifting martial law within six months. So we have political agreement on that. And technically, logistically, it's impossible to do having six million Ukrainians abroad, having war going on. It's impossible, for example, to guarantee security and safety for voters. So for many reasons, let alone even money issue, because it would cost a lot and we don't have right now this money in our budget when we have to spend all our money on our defense.

11:28So for all reasons, it's impossible to do. And besides, President himself has mentioned this today, saying that it might cause serious political split within the country, which will weaken our country and will play into the hands of Putin. If I ask you if Mr. Fedorov is a threat to President Zeletsky, I have little doubt that you'll answer no. But can I ask you, was it a mistake to sack him? My personal position that I would leave him in his position, I would reinstate him because, first of all, he had only six months and he should have been given a chance. Second, I don't see the reasons for not nominating him.

12:13because he proved to be rather effective as a minister of defense. But politically speaking, even Mr. Federer himself, he is very evasive when he's asked about whether he's going to run for presidency or to participate in parliamentary elections. He says that it's a matter for future. So we don't know when elections will take place and whether or not he will run independently. It's too early to say. But he has been a very loyal supporter of President Zelensky for seven years. He's been a member of his team. And he does not personally accuse the president of corruption. We note that. Are there questions to be put to the president necessarily about his knowledge of corruption in government?

12:58Well, the president, he was given an interview today, and I understand that, first of all, he supports the investigation. and he has no intention to hamper or to interfere in this investigation. But everything should be done within legal frameworks. And Mr. Federer himself, he doesn't say that he's in position to President, he doesn't make any claims. He says that he's against, as he put it, a rather vague term though, against the system. And of course, he's against corruption. And I'm sure the President himself is interested in purging corruption. Thank you very much indeed, Alexander Mareshko, Ukrainian MP from President Zelensky's party and chair of the Parliamentary Foreign Policy Committee.

13:47You're with the BBC World Service, live from London. This is NewsHour.

14:12I'm Paul Henley with NewsHour, live from the BBC. In the US, tensions between the current Pentagon and the press have been evident for some time. They've taken a new turn, though, with the editor-in-chief of the US military newspaper called Stars and Stripes saying he's been fired for insubordination. Eric Slavin said he was targeted after speaking out against editorial interference in an interview with CBS News. The newspaper's publisher has also been fired, as has a reporter who wrote about the hardships faced by sailors on board the USS Abraham Lincoln. Stars and Stripes is part of the US Department of Defence and its reporters are Pentagon employees, but it has long maintained its editorial independence, trying to provide independent news for the US military community at home and around the world.

15:03Well, the Pentagon told the BBC it wouldn't comment, but did refer us to a memo from the recently appointed military deputy to the publisher in which he committed to the publication's continued independence. NewsHour's James Kumarasamy asked Eric Slavin whether he was surprised by the Pentagon's decision. It's certainly not what I expected when I woke up on Friday morning. Certainly there were tensions that went back all the way to a January the 15th tweet by a senior official in the Pentagon press office talking about changing Stars and Stripes substantially. And that tweet came with absolutely zero notice.

15:42At the same time, a federal regulation was removed and a story was leaked to a friendly news organization talking about firing a bunch of our reporters. So we had some idea that there were problems, but still did not expect this to happen. When that process began and you got wind that changes were coming, substantial changes from the Pentagon, what did you do? Nothing really happened for about two months, and we felt rather secure that maybe things could die down a bit. And then another memo came out on March the 9th, which proceeded to reaffirm our independence, but then place new restrictions upon the organisation.

16:30And the appointment of a military deputy to the publisher, was that an important moment? It was only just a few weeks ago. And I would say that there has not been a military public affairs officer within stars and stripes in many decades. So that was a surprise, yes. now though and you gave I guess what would now be seen as a fateful from your point of view interview to CBS in which you were asked about red lines the Pentagon shouldn't cross and you talked about censorship is that because you believe now that censorship is in place well that was my own official opinion that I gave to CBS and they asked me what my red line would be And I said, if there was a perfectly accurate story that we weren't allowed to run, and then they gave us something else that was written by the Pentagon, that that would be a red line for me.

17:22I never said that I would disobey any sort of directive. I simply explained what I thought the rules were, because the rules say that we must remain editorially independent. That's actually Defense Department policy. And for that, I was given a separation notice for insubordination. The Pentagon, when we asked them for a comment, they referred us to a statement that was put out by the newly or recently appointed military deputy, Captain Bill Urban, to the publisher and in which he has said that I will not hesitate to report on service members who have been left behind or disadvantaged by the decisions of our leaders.

18:02I believe in a Stars and Stripes that fully reports the impact the Department of War policies have on you, and I will report the good with the bad. What are your thoughts on that? I sincerely hope that Stars and Stripes can continue to report independently. Of course, I'm concerned, given what has recently happened. That was Eric Slavin, editor-in-chief of Stars and Stripes, talking to my colleague James Kumar Asami.

18:31Has Prince Harry and Meghan's American dream failed? I'm Asma Khaled, and I host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. The Sussexes are intending to return to the UK, six years after moving to California and striking multi-million dollar brand partnerships. Just last year, Harry told the BBC he couldn't see a world in which his family would return. So what's changed? Find out on The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

19:03Welcome back to NewsHour, now a long-awaited trial into the murder of the famous American rapper Tupac Shakur. Resumes on Monday. The only man ever charged over his death, Dwayne Keffy D. Davis, has pleaded not guilty. Tupac's death in Las Vegas in 1996 came at the height of a rivalry between East and West Coast rappers. There was an attempt to head off the Bad Blood a year earlier when the music producer Quincy Jones called a summit of the biggest names in the rap music industry. Jones asked pioneering hip-hop artist and presenter Fab Five Freddy to moderate that meeting, and he's been telling my colleague Julian Warwicker more about what happened that day.

19:46The atmosphere was great. Everybody was happy to be around each other, and people were excited to be in the presence of Quincy Jones and the other senior players, including Clarence Avon, Colin Powell was in that room at the time. Quincy, having been in the game for like many years, decades, felt like these guys need some older players to talk to because there weren't that many significant black music execs doing what was happening at that time. You mentioned one name a moment ago, which will strike people listening to this conversation. Colin Powell was there. Yeah. At some point in the future would become the Secretary of State.

20:23You know, yeah. And the timeline of it, I think he had been the head of the Joint Chiefs maybe prior to that. And then I guess would be the Secretary of State. But, you know, he's a guy that grew up in the streets of New York, went to City College, you know, lived in the Bronx. Like, he got it and had been in charge of, you know, many men ready to fight to defend the country. So it was impressive. But, you know, very cool. And can you remember at the end of this summit, I mean, did you walk away from it thinking, I think we've made a real difference here, that things will get better now? You know, I never thought it would get as bad as it got because, you know, you hear these people, so much of what is said on rap records is theatre.

21:07It's a movie, you know, like De Niro, Al Pacino in the great gangster films. These guys go home and have normal lives, which is very similar to what it was in hip hop. Once again, it just ignited the people on the sidelines to want to jump up and just be the tough guy. And 90 % of the time, those doing the rapping hadn't really done any of the things that they dramatized on record because they were acting, essentially. Sadly, even though there were good intentions at this summit, in the end there was more violence and there were deaths. Yeah, there sure was. So once again, Quincy's foresight, it's amazing.

21:50And that documentary that was done not long ago, shortly around the time of his death, and there was a clip of it in there and Quincy speaking, and you could see Quincy tearing up. The emotion was so palpable. And seeing that recently in the dark, I mean, this is how deeply he felt and wanted to prevent and to reach out and to try to bring all these people together. That was 1990s hip-hop artist Fab Five Freddy speaking to my colleague Julian Warica.

22:32You're listening to NewsHour from the BBC. I'm Paul Henley. Now, it's emerged today that Russia has withdrawn its ambassador to the UK. Andrei Kelleyn left London last month and no candidate's been put forward to take his place. Tensions between the two countries have escalated in recent days and weeks after it was revealed that British-manufactured drones had been used by Ukraine to strike targets inside Russia. The BBC spoke to Ambassador Kellyn in April at the time. Britain warned it could board Russia's so-called shadow fleet of ships if they entered the English Channel. Ambassador Kellyn denied Russia was a threat to the UK.

23:12Are we a conqueror UK like Normans? This is nonsense, of course. Or we will start a war against NATO? This is absolutely impossible since NATO war machine is much bigger than Russia. then what's the purpose of all these efforts? For us, it is clear. It is just to feed defence industry more and more money. Let's talk live to Joe Inwood, who's joined me in the studio, BBC World News correspondent. Is this a genuine row? Is it diplomatic wars? What's going on? I think it's fair to say that there is probably the lowest, this is the lowest ebb of relations that we have seen in living memory between Russia and the UK.

23:54they're as bad as they've ever been. But I think you probably need to separate that from this announcement. Ambassador Kielin had been in London for seven years, and his posting was, I understand, due to end in July. And he ended it on the 21st is when he left the UK. So this was before the most recent downgrade in relations to do with the use of British manufactured drones being used to attack Russian targets, for example. And the Russian embassy have put out a statement. So this came from a story in the Sunday Times newspaper, basically saying that nothing that they've said can signify that his withdrawal or his leaving is not, you know, is the sign of some further deterioration.

24:38They do say that relations between the two countries, I'll read you the quote, as for the state of Russia, UK relations across all areas, they have deteriorated to an unprecedentedly low level entirely on London's initiative, they say. So things are very, very, very bad. But I think this story is slightly separate from that, although obviously a little bit related. All London's fault, then, according to Moscow. So Andy Burnham, the recently appointed British Prime Minister, won't help those relations when he pledges the continuing unfailing support of the UK for Ukraine. Yeah. And of course, British support for Ukraine is, from Russia's perspective, at the heart of this.

25:18The UK has been one of the most loyal and fervent supporters of Ukraine's resistance of Russia's invasion. It's a legal occupation of parts of their country since the very start. They've led the charge in trying to rally international support. And of course, that has angered the Kremlin significantly. I mean, Mr. Kjellin was a loyal ambassador to Russia. He quite often would come out with lines which people here would view as, frankly, Kremlin propaganda. In an interview with the BBC's Laura Koonsberg, he didn't deny that Russia was following British submarines, nuclear-armed submarines, but said, why would we want to follow your outdated warheads?

25:59So he was combative. He gave interviews. He was quite open sometimes and often said things which angered and infuriated people here. As I said, it is important to remember that having a charge d 'affaires in charge of an embassy is not unprecedented. The British government have done it. For example, we had a charge d 'affaires, sort of a deputy, running our embassy in Italy for a while in Rome. That wasn't because relations had collapsed. It's not that uncommon. But it does come in the context of really, really bad relations between the two countries. Thank you very much. That's the BBC's World News correspondent, Joe Inwood.