US-Saudi nuclear deal raises concern

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1:32Hello and welcome to NewsHour from the BBC World Service. We're coming to you live from London. I'm James Menendez. In a moment, that proposed nuclear deal between the US and Saudi Arabia. Many lawmakers are unhappy. That's our main story today. Also in the programme, what happens when an artificial intelligence agent breaks free from its shackles? This particular environment was supposed to be a closed environment. In short, the AI system wasn't supposed to have access to the internet, a very basic system for installing programmes. And what's scary about this case is that it was able to escape.

2:06More on that in just over 10 minutes. But we are going to start with the deal between Washington and Riyadh that will allow American companies to build and run nuclear power plants in Saudi Arabia. The agreement is due to be announced any time now, but the broad outlines were leaked much earlier today in the US media. And the crucial points are these. Unlike previous proposals, the deal, it seems, won't be linked to Saudi recognition of Israel and the country may be allowed to produce and enrich its own uranium fuel and only under limited international inspections. Well, this is what the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio had to say earlier.

2:44I'm not going to opine directly on that agreement. We're going to put out, even when the moment is appropriate, will put out that in writing. We have to do it with Congress anyways, so we'll certainly do it publicly. But suffice it to say, the US is not going to reach any agreement with any country in the world that leads to the risk of proliferation. Nevertheless, the reports so far have raised fears that the agreement will help Saudi Arabia on the road to building its own nuclear weapon, something that the kingdom's de facto ruler, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, has vowed to do if Iran does.

3:15The US is, of course, still fighting Iran in a conflict that the US launched to halt Tehran's nuclear ambitions. While there is concern in the US Congress and in Israel about the agreement, Brad Sherman is a Democratic congressman and a senior member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. He opposes the deal in its current form. I asked him why. Inadequate safeguards to prevent Saudi Arabia from developing nuclear weapons, preventing nuclear proliferation, particularly in the Middle East, is so important that Donald Trump is waging war. And yet this agreement he's reached with Saudi Arabia does not have the additional protocol, which allows the IAEA to do the level of inspections necessary to make sure that the nuclear power program isn't to cover for a nuclear weapons program.

4:07I've been doing foreign policy for a long, long time. I remember when the most powerful monarch in the Middle East was a good friend of the United States. That was the Shah. And every military technology that was in the hands of the Shah in 1978 was in the hands of the Mullahs in 1979. So even if you think it's just fine for Ben Salman and his Saudi Arabia to be developing nuclear technology and not have any safeguards about nuclear weapons, you have no idea who's going to be running Saudi Arabia 10 years from now. Do you trust him? I trust him more than I trust some of the people that might be running Saudi Arabia 10 years from now.

4:53But no, I mean, he has stated that he wants to keep pace with Iran in developing nuclear weapons. And while I'm certainly not a fan of letting Iran have a nuclear weapon, a Saudi weapon is harmful in any scenario in the future. You say you've been working on foreign policy for a long time. Someone else who's been working on foreign policy for a long time is the now U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio. And in fact, you worked on a bill with him when he was a senator called the No Nuclear Weapons for Saudi Arabia Act of 2018. I mean, first of all, what happened to that? It did not pass. Senator Rubio was much better than Secretary Rubio on this issue.

5:35The bill would have said that if you're going to sign a nuclear cooperation agreement with Saudi Arabia that doesn't meet the gold standard of nuclear safeguards, that it can go into effect only if Congress affirmatively votes in favor of it. And that would give Congress a real role. instead, Congress will be able to vote on this deal. But if we pass a resolution that is vetoed by the president, then it would take a two thirds majority in Congress to stop this deal. And well more than one third of each house is just slavishly devoted to whatever Donald Trump wants. So when now Secretary of State Rubio says that a deal won't be done that leads to nuclear proliferation, I mean, are you saying that you don't believe him?

6:24Well, I believe it won't lead to nuclear proliferation during the next two years. But it's not about bragging about whether the Trump administration has been successful. He has no idea who's going to be running Saudi Arabia 10 years from now. So he has no idea as to how they'll use the technology that he is transferring to them without adequate safeguards. What about the argument that it keeps Riyadh close to Washington in a strong partnership and makes them less likely to drift away to China and Russia? I would say that preventing nuclear proliferation is very important. And yes, it's good to have friends in the Middle East.

7:10Yes, it's good to develop a relationship. The Saudis really need us. They're being bombed by Iran, and most of those missiles are being shot down by the United States and by technology developed by the United States. So I expect that the United States will have a good relationship with Saudi Arabia, and we shouldn't have to give the green light to a nuclear program that doesn't have adequate safeguards. Why do you think Saudi Arabia needs a nuclear energy program? I mean, it's got plenty of oil, hasn't it? It does. their claim is that they will be able to export more oil and not have to use so much of it to generate electricity.

7:55Of all the countries in the world, Saudi Arabia needs a nuclear program leased, not just on the oil, which they can easily export, but exporting natural gas, which can be transported cheaply through pipelines, is an excellent way to generate electricity. And to export natural gas, you have to liquefy it. That's very expensive. So while the Gulf Cooperation Council countries can export natural gas, it makes a lot more sense for them to use it to generate electricity. That being said, the United Arab Emirates has signed a nuclear cooperation agreement with the United States that has all the safeguards in it.

8:37And if the Saudis would agree to that agreement, I support it. So ultimately, the best safeguard would be to not allow Saudi Arabia to produce its own fuel and to have the technology to enrich that fuel. And that's what the UAE agreed to. And the UAE is similarly situated economically. They're producing a lot of electricity. and the agreement they reached with us has all the best safeguards in it and doesn't prevent the economic exploitation of nuclear power. Democratic Congressman Brad Sherman. We also invited Republicans from the Senate and House Foreign Affairs Committees to speak to us, but no one was available.

9:20Reena Shah is a former senior congressional advisor for the Republicans. So does she think the U.S. should be helping Saudi Arabia establish a nuclear program? I will say as a former senior Republican congressional advisor, I've seen deals like these up close. And the U.S.-Saudi nuclear agreement is smart strategic leadership. American companies leading Saudi's civilian program means U.S. jobs, exports and real influence, not ceding the field to China or Russia. What about the lack of safeguards that we heard Congressman Sherman talking about there? Does that concern you? Well, the Democrat Congressman Sherman raises very important points on safeguards and we all want ironclad non-proliferation.

10:06I think this deal really delivers bilateral controls with American oversight and IAEA involvement on enrichment. These are practical protections that keep us in the driver's seat. And yes, I mean, there are warnings about Saudi enrichment risking a bomb. It's a valid concern in theory, but with American companies, again, in the driver's seat and black box technology protections, this deal contains the risk better than the alternative. Saudi going solo or partnering with China and Russia are not the alternatives we want. But again, back to non-proliferation there, that is a shared priority Republicans and Democrats have.

10:47And I do think, though, when looking at this deal on its face, and details to come, of course, it's responsible engagement, though, that actually gives us leverage, unlike rigid demands that let our rivals step in. Let's talk a bit about leverage, though, because you wouldn't dispute that from what we know of this deal, that the safeguards are less than previous proposed agreements. Correct. But look, this is about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. The safeguards are tailored and they're bilateral, not the rigid old additional protocol that Saudi rejected for their sovereignty reasons.

11:28reasons but you know again here's what matters it's american companies are building and operating the plants with direct american oversight you have black box technology there on enrichment and the iaea involvement in the most sensitive areas so when secretary rubio brings this up he's been pretty crystal clear on this there's no proliferation risk well he says that but i mean what he was opposed to in the past was precisely what seems to be in this deal that there is less oversight by the IAEA and the fact that Saudi Arabia may be allowed to enrich its own uranium. I just wonder, just on this question of leverage, the fact that the US can't insist on some of these stronger safeguards, is that because it's lost leverage over Saudi Arabia?

12:14And is that because of what is going on with the war with Iran? Critics want the perfect gold standard, but that's what stalled everything before. And this, if you're looking at this again, This gets results. Energy diversification for the Saudis, billions for our American industry, and US leverage in the Gulf. That's the way I see it. Congress is going to review this. But I think blocking American leadership here ultimately weakens us. Right. But presumably there was a time when the US could have said, look, you know, if you want this technology, if you want these civilian nuclear power plants, then these are the conditions and Saudi Arabia might have had to have gone along with it.

12:53But now it seems that that isn't the case. Yeah, but like I just said, critics like the Democrats in Congress, they want that old gold standard. That's what paralyzed the talks for years. This is a pragmatic approach. Look on the Iran angle as well, which is important here because this is where it gets strategic. Tehran is pushing towards nuclear weapons capability and Mohammed bin Salman has been clear that they will match it. empowering a key Sunni partner with American-led civilian nuclear power, I think that strengthens deterrence across the region without dragging us into another conflict.

13:35So yes, the Iran reality check is key there. But the bottom line here is that foreign policy succeeds when it advances American interests and alliances. And that was Reena Shah, a former senior Republican congressional advisor. There is a live page on our website up and running on this story. We were expecting a formal announcement, well, almost three hours ago from Washington about this. That still hasn't come, but it is expected anytime soon. But as I say, that live page will carry any updates. BBC.com forward slash news. You're listening to NewsHour.

14:30also still to come on the program

14:48The man behind that iconic saxophone theme has died. We'll be hearing the story behind Plas Johnson's most famous performance and his extraordinarily varied career as one of LA's top session musicians. That's coming up in about 20 minutes. Our main headlines, as we've been hearing, the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio has insisted a nuclear energy deal with Saudi Arabia won't lead to proliferation in the Middle East. And the trial of Venezuela's Astid leader Nicolás Maduro on drugs trafficking charges has been set for next June in New York.

15:30This is James Menendez with NewsHour live from the BBC. The tech giant OpenAI has revealed that its AI models broke out of what was supposed to be a sealed testing environment and hacked into Hugging Face, a US company in the same field. The AI agents then, in effect, stole the answers to a test they were due to be graded on. Well, is this a development we should be worried about or a clever bit of PR by OpenAI to demonstrate just how sophisticated its technology is? Dr Henry Shevlin is a philosopher and AI ethicist at the University of Cambridge. He also works for Google DeepMind, but spoke to NewsHour in a personal capacity.

16:09Sean Lay asked him what we should make of the news. Most simply, it's a demonstration of how fast these models are improving, including in quite sensitive domains like cyber warfare or cyber attacks. The reason they do these kinds of tests is because when models are released these days, if they fall into the wrong hands or they're used by bad actors. They can hack into people's computers, conduct large-scale cyber attacks, potentially being used even by foreign governments or organized crime. So it's important to know what these models can do and what they can't do. And that's why we've got great institutions in the UK, like the AI Security Institute, which are world leaders at doing this.

16:48But companies also have to do it internally. And the fact that this model has more or less spontaneously taken its instructions so far, even going so far as to try and escape the sandbox it was locked in. I think that shows just how much these models have improved and how capable they now are. Is it also a way of OpenAI demonstrating to the public that actually this has happened, but the point is, look at how capable our AI models are. Look at how sophisticated they've become. Yes, there is definitely an element of positive view here as well. I think it would be unfair to say this is the only reason that open AI would be disclosing something like this.

17:28It is important for models to share when there are new dangerous or potentially risky capabilities that emerge. But I'm sure there is an element of braggadocio in mentioning, by the way, our model is so powerful that it was able to escape its sandbox environment. The unease it will cause in some people listening, and I'm sure even some people in the field, is that this happened in the way it did happen, that if you have a model that effectively is in a, if you like, a black box, we don't quite know what's going on in that black box. And therefore, how can we be confident about the consequences of these developments?

18:03Two things I'd just quickly clarify. So, on the one hand, we are actually getting a lot better at understanding, sort of reading the minds, sort of in scare quotes of what AI systems are thinking and what they're doing. We've made a lot of progress there in the last few years. Now, this particular environment was supposed to be a closed environment. In short, the AI system wasn't supposed to have access to the internet, etc. A very basic system for installing programs. And what's scary about this case is that it was able to escape, basically. So if you can imagine the student locked in the room doing the exam, they picked the lock and were able to break into the teacher's office and steal the exam notes.

18:41Now, that is striking and quite dramatic. It's happened, I think, only twice before, according to sort of cybersecurity history. But the one thing I would emphasize is that in this case, the model was basically doing what it was told to. The model was told to complete these cyber attack exercises. And it just got a little bit more creative than the examiners were expecting. Yes. I mean, they apparently said its instructions were to do what it could do by any means necessary. And I wonder if that, you're an ethicist, that raises a concern about the programming that is given. Absolutely. Yeah, I think this is a very legitimate criticism.

19:18So the case for these kinds of no safeguard testing is, well, the bad actors out there, the cyber criminals, they're not going to use safeguards. So if you want to do a realistic simulation of what it might be like for someone to misuse this software, if you impose too many safeguard restrictions, you're not getting a realistic test. That said, in this case, the system did actually end up interfering with the code of another company, in this case, Hugging Face. So there was a splashback on a third party in this case that was not ideal and maybe doesn't make for a fully ethical environment. So that is a proper legitimate criticism of this kind of extreme testing.

19:57That was Dr. Henry Shevlin. France has become the latest country to pass legislation restricting children's access to social media and the first European Union nation to do so. On Tuesday, the National Assembly approved a bill banning under-15s from using apps such as TikTok or Instagram. That'll come into effect for new accounts in September and for existing users in January. The law's the culmination of a pledge made by President Macron as he approaches the end of 10 years in office. But as ever, there are questions about how effective it'll be in practice. Catherine Morin-Desailly is a centrist member of France's Senate and was responsible for steering the bill through the upper house.

20:37She first told me why she supports the ban. We've had researches, we've had inquiries, and what they reveal is that potentially it can be extremely dangerous and risky for youngsters to be dependent on these social medias and very harmful with some addictive effects and some effects on their health, particularly their physical health, but also their mental health. What are the applications, the apps that are most problematic for you? Some social medias, because they have some special economic models relying on algorithm, the infinite scrolling and that sort of things are extremely risky and harmful.

21:30It has been demonstrated. For example, TikTok and Instagram are now well known for their addictive effects on youngsters. These social media keep the youngsters from sleeping, for example. Now, the key question, as you well know, is enforcement of this legislation. How effective will it be? And will it be more effective than, for example, the ban in Australia, where now it's been reported by the eSafety Commission in the country that a majority of children under 16 still find ways to access these sites? In France, just as in Spain or in Greece at the moment where we are trying to take some legislation.

22:18We can only do it first in respect of the European Commission, because you know that the European Union is the political structure which is in charge of regulating what we call the information society. The only thing we can do is to forbid all youngsters to access to this platform. We will have to install an age verification, respectful of the protections of all personal data. So how will it work? Will it be that if people want to access these sites, they will have to submit, what, their identity card details? That's right. That's right, to a special service. And the system will have to check whether you are confirming the right age or not.

23:07And after that, they will be able to deliver a sort of certificate, which will be sent to the platforms and that's it. But it will be installed for quite a short while. Why am I saying that? Because the European Union has revealed that it will unveil a proposal for harmonized framework on miners' access to social media this summer. So it means that our laws in France, in Spain, in Greece, it will no longer be possible to rely on them, but only on the European new text. I mean, you're going to have to move quite fast because isn't the idea that this is all in place by the start of the school year in September?

23:52In fact, a lot of people reproach our president, Emmanuel Macron, for wanting to be the first, a good pupil in the classroom, to be the first to have voted a bill regarding this ban on social media. But it's more a political signal, which can be also important for Europe to hurry in her proposition. French Senator Catherine Morin-Desailly. You're listening to NewsHour. Do stay with us. Lots more to come.

24:30How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100 ,000 on camera. And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man$10 ,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

25:05Welcome back to News Am. In normal times, Venezuelans might have been keeping a close eye on the US criminal case facing their ousted leader, Nicolás Maduro. He and his wife, Celia Flores, were back in court in New York today for hearing about their alleged participation in a drug trafficking operation. They were seized by US special forces in Caracas earlier this year and whisked off to the US. Today's appearance prompted protests outside court.

25:35And this man said the U.S. should stop interfering in Venezuela's affairs. I'm out here today to demand the release of President Nicolas Maduro and First Lady Celia Flores and to demand the U.S. takes its hands off of Venezuela. The United States does not have the interest of the Venezuelan people in mind. All it wants is the oil. It wants the natural resources. That's all it's interested in. So we stand in solidarity with the people of Venezuela and stand with them. Maduro is told where the judge that his trial would begin next June. Back home in Venezuela, though, there are more pressing concerns.

26:07It has been less than a month since at least 5 ,000 people died in twin earthquakes, as Will Grant now reports. Everywhere you turn in La Guaida, there's more evidence of the devastation, whether it is social housing on this side of the road, down near a place called Playa Los Cocos, or indeed on the other side of the road where you see businesses and homes, private homes, also completely crushed. The picture everywhere you turn remains one of devastation. Of course, now the heavy machinery is moving a lot of the rubble, but there are still family members burrowing into the remnants of those homes, trying to find the bodies of their missing loved ones.