US State Department defends Venezuela oil deal

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1:00Hello and welcome to NewsHour from the BBC World Service. We're coming to you live from London. I'm James Menendez. And coming up later, the trailblazing American feminist Gloria Steinem has died at the age of 92. We'll be speaking to the current executive editor of Muz Magazine, which she co-founded, and hear a tribute from an American Iraqi friend. She never despaired when women lost rights in America or in any other country. She never despaired at backlashes. She just looked at the light in the middle of the darkness and kept on saying, we can do it. We're not going to give up. We will triumph.

1:37We'll hear those tributes towards the end of the programme, but we will be hearing from Gloria Steinem herself, her own words, in about 15 minutes. But we are going to begin, as we did yesterday, with the deal signed between the US and the interim Venezuelan government, giving Washington effective control of about a fifth of the country's vast oil reserves. Little is known about the details of the agreement. However, today we've had the opportunity to put some of the questions raised by our coverage on Wednesday to the US government. We'll play you that interview with a State Department spokesman in just a moment.

2:11In the past few hours, though, there's also been reaction from the woman widely regarded by Venezuelans as their legitimate leader, the Nobel Peace Laureate Maria Corina Machado. She's put out a video statement. Here's part of it.

2:29Dear Venezuelans, in recent hours a major oil agreement has been announced between the United States government and the regime of Delci Rodriguez. I know what you're feeling, sadness, anger, and that painful sense so familiar throughout our history that someone else is making decisions about what belongs to us in our name, without us. We still do not know the true scope of this agreement. Who is signing it? What exactly is being signed? Who is putting up the money? Who is providing the guarantees? How will this benefit the Venezuelan people? These are legitimate questions and understandably, this announcement has raised profound concerns about what it could mean for the future of our country.

3:22President Trump has had his eye on Venezuelan oil for some time. Here he is speaking in December of last year, just two weeks before Venezuela was raided and President Nicolás Maduro taken. You remember they took all of our energy rights, they took all of our oil from not that long ago and we want it back, but they took it. They illegally took it. Well, these people in the capital, Caracas, told the BBC they were unconvinced of the benefits of the deal. It's crazy. It's not a good option for Venezuela because, I don't know, we don't know about the contract or the agreement. We as Venezuelans deserve more transparency and accountability.

4:06What are the details? What are the conditions? And what are going to be the benefits for Venezuelans? Well, on NewsHour yesterday, we heard from Elliot Abrams, US Special Representative for Venezuela during the first Trump administration. He's now a senior fellow at the think tank, the Council on Foreign Relations. He's described the deal as, quote, a kind of fever dream of what colonialism looks like. Had this been developed honestly, openly, privately with oil companies, approved in the right way by a democratic government of Venezuela, it would have been the right path to take. They do have these mammoth reserves, a deal that would benefit the government and people of Venezuela, and that would produce another, say, million barrels a day, would be good for them and be good for everyone.

4:54But this is not the way to go about it. Well, when I spoke to the US State Department spokesperson Tommy Piggott a little earlier, I began with this question. Aren't the rights to Venezuela's oil being given away for free? No. So what we're talking about here is two deals. And that's what's important here. We're talking about on one part, these concessions that are given from the interim authorities to North American blue energy partners. So that's one part. And we're talking about tax royalties and other parts from that part of the deal. The part I'm talking about at no cost for American taxpayer is the equity stake in that company.

5:28Those are two different things. And what this actually will facilitate and allow is that increased production. Just think of what we've seen over the last few days of oil companies announcing that increased production. This is a game-changing deal. From a model where we had revenue going to Majuro and his cronies, fields operated by Iran, Russia and China, now operated by private companies with a revenue going to Venezuelan people and lower gas prices for the American people. If it's a game changing deal, as you say, and you're so proud of it, why not make the details public? Why has it been so such an opaque process?

6:05Well, you can go to whitehouse.gov and see a fact sheet detailing all the details of this deal right now. This has been a very transparent process in terms of the details of what we're seeing. And I can make sure and I want to make sure your listeners are rest assured that this will be governed by the highest levels of US governance, including auditing, including Americans on this board, including jurisdiction and US courts. That's part of this deal as well. Which department is making this investment in that company, North American Blue Energy Partners? Well, the equity stake, again, will be held by the Department of War.

6:36But I do want to say that is separate from the concessions. And I think that's part of the confusion here, the fact that there are two separate actions that are happening here. The concessions given from the Venezuelan government and the equity stake that is going to be held by the Department of War. Why is the Pentagon involved? That's part of the legal authorities we have here in terms of allowing that equity stake to happen. So that's part of legal authority. So that's, again, part of making sure that this is done with the highest levels of U.S. regulation of auditing based off of statutory authorities that currently exist.

7:03We spoke to the former U.S. special representative to Venezuela who served under President Trump in his first term. He said it was inappropriate that the Pentagon was involved and would probably be challenged in the courts. Well, I'm certainly not going to get ahead of any sort of judicial process. But what I can say is that this is based off of existing statutory and regulatory authorities, which is why the Department of War is involved. The company that obtained these licenses, I mean, was there an open bidding process for that? Well, again, we're talking about a proven operator. And I think that actually is an important point and gets to an important point on this.

7:39And the fact that we're going to see impact from this over the short term as well. We're talking about an operator that operates in Venezuela currently, which means this is scalable. This is something that you can scale rapidly. So we will see the first offtake rights from this deal over the next several months. Not going to put too fine a timeline on it while this continues to develop. But was it an open process? Because if not, many people will say that looks a lot like crony capitalism? Well, I mean, what we're talking about is a proven operator that was looking for partners and has chosen to partner with the United States.

8:11This is a private company that was looking for partners, and the United States is a partner it chose to partner with. So that's what happened here. That's what we're looking at. So in fact, what we're talking about is a great benefit for the American people. And we're continuing to see a variety of different oil companies announcing expansion of operations in Venezuela, which I think reinforces how much of a game-changing deal this is. The fact that new model has been established to allow for private development of these fields in better production. What evidence is there that the company led by this businessman, very wealthy businessman Alejandro Betancourt, is a proven operator?

8:44Many Venezuelans would point to the fact that he was given contracts to build new power plants in Venezuela and that ever since Venezuela has still been plagued by blackouts. Where is the proof that he can get this job done? Well, North American Blue Energy Partners is currently operating in terms of producing oil in Venezuela. That's where you get the proven operator, which means this is scalable. I do want to stress again the importance of the highest levels of U.S. governance auditing, making sure this deal will be implemented the way that it should be. So what I'm saying in terms of proven operator is currently the company produces something around 250 ,000 barrels of oil a day out of Venezuela.

9:22A former senior executive at the Venezuelan oil company said that the firm, North American Blue Energy Partners, doesn't have the capability, doesn't have the technical know-how to get some of these oil fields, which require a huge amount of investment, a huge amount of work to get going. So who is going to do that hard work? Well, another part of the benefit of this deal is we expect about$100 billion to be invested in the Venezuelan economy as part of this. We are going to see increased investment. We also have seen other companies announce their own investment into Venezuelan oil fields. So we are seeing that investment already happening.

9:55I think that point you're making actually points to a benefit of this deal. And again, a deal only President Trump could have accomplished in terms of a win-win-win across the board. Isn't the Trump administration essentially doing business with the Maduro regime, but without Maduro at the top? I mean, nothing has really changed apart from the fact that it's been decapitated. Nothing has changed. That's a ridiculous thing to say. Is it? Think of where we are to see. It is entirely. I'm about to explain to you why. Think of where we were nine months ago. Oil fields operated by Maduro and his cronies.

10:28Now we have oil fields and announced investment of private enterprise developing this, a new deal. We have talks ongoing between the National Assembly from 2015 and the interim authorities. We're seeing the release of political prisoners. Of course, there is much work to do. Why not hold those elections first and then go through this process once a government with genuine democratic legitimacy is in place? And wouldn't that also encourage investors who would be able to say, look, we have confidence in this government, we have confidence in its durability, and therefore we have the confidence to start putting our money into the country?

11:04Well, two things on this. First is we want to make sure that Venezuela and the government that will be coming into Venezuela has revenues in place where they can have that reconstruction happening. The second point quickly is that our goal is not just one election. It's enduring elections. It's an enduring republic. In order to have an election, you need election infrastructure you can trust. You need opposition leaders that are able to organize. You need a free press. You need all of those things operating in order to have a successful election. And we're working on all of those. The woman who most Venezuelans, a large majority of Venezuelans regard as their legitimate leader, Maria Corina Machado, she doesn't like this deal.

11:39She says Venezuela needs political stability, democracy, transparency before Venezuela's oil assets are sold off. She's right, isn't she? Essentially, our goal here is to make sure there's a process in place where a government that comes in has not inherited a failed state, has revenue in place where they can do what they need to do to help the Venezuelan people. And also make sure we have elections, a process in place where the Venezuelan people have elections, that it's not just one election, it's enduring elections. Well, there was a process and then Maduro stole that election. I mean, no one's in any doubt what the outcome will be.

12:14You're actually kind of making my point for me with that example. You just actually made my point in terms of there was an election that was not legitimate. We need a legitimate election. And to have a legitimate election, you need a process in place that includes opposition parties, that includes a free media, that includes election infrastructure that you can trust. We are working on all of those things. So the point you just made actually makes the point that I'm saying here, which these things have to happen in tandem. Yeah, except that sorry to interrupt you, but except that by doing this deal, doesn't it entrench the interim government that's there in place at the moment?

12:46and entrench Delce Rodriguez, who was, after all, Nicolas Maduro's deputy, entrench her power? The deal that the United States is making is with a private company. And importantly, what this is is a new model. That's why I keep on stressing the point before about Maduro and his cronies with these oil fields. They were pocketing this revenue. That is no longer happening. So this actually helps further the democratic process by having a model in place that a government that comes in can have these tax royalties, can have this revenue and a model of an oil field, an oil infrastructure that's already producing revenue for the Venezuelan people that is vastly different than what existed just under a year ago.

13:24And that was Tommy Piggott, spokesperson for the U.S. State Department, speaking to me about that deal signed in Caracas on Wednesday between the U.S. and the interim Venezuelan government. You're listening to NewsHour from the BBC World Service.

13:57Still to come, how a medieval artwork reaches across the centuries, from William the Conqueror to King Charles. The Bayer Tapestry, or the Canterbury Embroidery, as it might just have been called, recounts a conflict, yet here it is today, nearly a thousand years later, as a precious symbol of trust. We're on that coming up in just over 10 minutes. Our main headlines from the BBC newsroom at the moment, the Israeli security minister's outlined plans to remove almost 2 million Palestinians from Gaza. There's been another outbreak of mass food poisoning linked to government-issued free school meals in Indonesia.

14:35And the US space companies SpaceX and Blue Origin have pulled out of an international summit in Paris after reported pressure from the White House.

14:57This is James Menendez with NewsHour Live from the BBC. One of the great feminist figures of our time has died. Gloria Steinem was 92 and passed away at her home in New York City. She was an award-winning journalist, writer and publisher, as well as an activist and campaigner who helped women demand and get greater reproductive rights, economic parity and protection against sexual harassment. Speaking to the BBC in 2015, Steinem talked about what first inspired her activism, including the moment in the 1960s when she went as a reporter to an event where women were talking about abortion, then an illegal procedure in the U.S.

15:36For the first time in my life ever, I heard women stand up and tell the truth, tragic, funny, personal, about being one of every three American women who has needed an abortion at some time in her lifetime. And it revolutionized me sitting there listening to women tell the truth about the humiliation, the danger, the surrealism, the funny, terrible things that happened to women who were made to seek out an illegal procedure in order to get what should have been a legal one. And that's what made me start to ask questions. If this has happened, if this is necessary for so many of us, why is it illegal?

16:21Why is it criminal? Why is it dangerous? She also said she used to be afraid of public speaking when she first started out. A speech teacher once told me that since I had first been a dancer and then been a writer, I had chosen my professions because I didn't want to talk. And some of that may be genderized because women sometimes tend to feel an open-mouthed flight of fear before audiences even more than men. But I certainly devoted much of my life to avoiding it. It was only my inability to publish what I wanted to about the explosion and excitement of the women's movement and my profoundly disinterested editors that I'd been freelancing for that made me desperate enough to think, all right, the only way I can report on this is to speak to the campuses who are inviting me.

17:20But I absolutely could not do it by myself. So I asked a friend who I thought would fill in knowledge I didn't have and vice versa, because she was running a childcare center, had children herself. She is black, I am white. But most importantly, she was fearless. us. So we began to speak together. There's a saying, you know, follow your fear. Fear is a sign of growth. In my case, it definitely turned out to be true because what I discovered is that what happens in a room when we are in the same space, when we can see, touch, feel, use all our five senses to understand each other, to empathize with each other, absolutely cannot happen on a printed page, much as I love the printed page, and cannot happen on a screen either.

18:10So it caused me to discover something I never otherwise would have known. So what, looking back on her decades campaigning and organizing, did she think she'd achieved? You know, I can't know that. I think it's really for other people to say where I might have said something or been something or written something or organize something that they found changeful. It's my job to do my best. You know, I think it's all of our jobs to do our best. I think we worry too much about what we should do. And we don't think enough about doing everything we can do. Gloria Stein, I'm speaking to the BBC. And we will, as I said earlier, be returning to this story a little later.

18:59Now, the Sharpeville massacre of 1960 was one of the defining moments in the fight against white minority rule in South Africa. It was also one of the darkest. 69 people were killed when police opened fire on a demonstration against racist laws preventing freedom of movement. Well, now more than six decades on, survivors and relatives of those killed are suing the South African government over its failure to repeal an apartheid-era law that's preventing them from seeking justice and compensation, as Pumza Feklani now reports.

19:35Heaps of rubbish are piling up around the township, and many young people of university-going age are sitting idle on street corners. It scarcely looks like the home of a historic fight against apartheid laws. We're in Sharffville, south of Johannesburg. It's a township slowly crumbling. Here, on the 21st of March in 1960, at least 69 people were killed by state police, while demonstrating against the racist apartheid regime.

20:10Abraham Mufugeng was only 20 years old at the time and still bears the scars of that day. A bullet is still lodged in his spine and he has a gentle limp from a gunshot to the leg. The life we were living under apartheid was a life of oppression. If you were from Shabville, you could not go outside its vicinity without a pass. We ended up planning to march to the police station in the morning. Then there was some friction between us and the police, and we saw a stone being thrown into the police station. All hell broke loose. That is when they started shooting. He and more than 200 people were injured, and recent estimates by South African researchers say the number of those who died from that incident could be as much as 91.

21:01Another survivor, Lazarus Mkhotsi, now 90 years old, takes me to the cemetery where most of those who died are buried. Their graves form one long row. There's even a 12-year-old. He tells me he needs time to compose himself, his eyes filling with tears. We heard gunshots coming from behind us. We hid inside the stall, peeping to see what was happening outside. People were lying on the ground. When we looked out again, we saw that some were trying to get up, but the police were just shooting at them. Others were using machetes to strike the heads of people who were still moving.

21:46The Indemnity Act 61, passed by the apartheid government in the aftermath of the shooting, protected the police from having any criminal charges or civil claims made against them by victims or their relatives. That law remains in the country's statute books. Now, South Africa's Lawyers for Human Rights, a local NGO, alongside UK-based firm Lee Day, are bringing a court action to have that law repealed. What the community is looking for is basically reparations that could enable their healing. One of the lawyers on the case, Shane Tracy, explains. The community has also expressed that Shapo is a forgotten community.

22:26They feel that South Africa and the government are quick to celebrate what happened on the day and the aftermath of all of that. But nothing real has been done to assist their healing. Part of their court application includes getting a class action certified. If approved, this means that for the first time, dozens of victims could collectively sue the state and possibly even have criminal charges brought against the perpetrators. The government told the BBC it has supported apartheid victims over the years and will continue to do so, but does not oppose survivors and families pursuing legal remedies.

23:06For many in the community of Sharple, the scars of the past remain, and so people here hope that restitution will help heal decades of lingering trauma. Abraham Mukhozi again. It would make us very happy. At the end of the day, apartheid is dead and buried. A win would bring complete healing, not just for us, but for future generations as well. It may be months, even years, before the case is finalised, but for the first time in a long time, many of the survivors say they have something to look forward to. That was the BBC's Pumza Fihlani reporting there from South Africa. You're listening to NewsHour.

23:52Do stay with us. Lots more to come.

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