Was the US right to leave Afghanistan?

0:02Hello and welcome to NewsHour live from the BBC World Service in London. I'm Rebecca Kesby. Today marks five years since the Taliban retook control of Afghanistan, 20 years after they were ousted from power by the US-led invasion of 2001, a direct response to the 9-11 terror attacks on the United States, plotted by Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda, which had a network of training camps in Afghanistan. The US withdrawal in 2021 was anticipated, but in the end the situation collapsed into chaos. Afghan government forces previously supported by the US were easily overrun by resurgent Taliban as its forces swept across the country.

0:48closing in on the capital, Kabul. Many tried to flee their advance, leading to pandemonium at Kabul airport as the last flights out of the country took off.

1:06While in desperation, some people clambered up onto the air bridges as they tried to board departing planes. But while thousands were desperate to leave, others did welcome the Taliban's arrival back in the capital. celebratory gunfire could be heard on the streets of Kabul as Taliban fighters arrived in the city.

1:32Today, five years on, Taliban fighters were back on the streets, this time in organised victory parades, including outside the former US embassy in Kabul, displaying flags and banners celebrating what the government described as Victory Day from Western domination. Women were banned from the celebrations, but these male locals in Kabul spoke in favour of the Taliban. I am truly very happy, so happy that I cannot put it into words. This freedom means a great deal to us. We achieved this victory through the sacrifices of our martyrs and with great success. The celebration is very good and we are very happy that Afghanistan has regained its freedom.

2:21Before there was no security but now, thank be to God, everything is good. We are grateful to the Islamic Emirate. Long live the Islamic Emirate. Well in a moment we'll hear from our chief international correspondent Lise Doucette who's in Kabul today. She was also there at the airport five years ago during the scramble to flee the Taliban advance. One of those desperate to get out was the Afghan journalist Wahida Faizi. Here she is speaking to Lise at the airport five years ago. I can't leave here. Why can't you? It's not safe for you? My dream is enough. Taliban beating me here. They're fighting me here.

3:05They're shooting me here. But they didn't know now me. They know I'm a journalist. If they know, I know they will kill me. I love my country, but I can't stay here. I should leave. Thank you so much. Go safely. Thank you. Thank you so much. Good to see you, Mahirajan. I'm so sorry you have to leave. So sorry. I'm so sorry. And that was Afghan journalist Wahida Faizi there five years ago. And I can tell you she now lives and works in Europe. I caught up with Lise earlier today and she gave us a reminder of that day back in 2021. It makes me cry to hear Wahida cry again that day when she was forced to leave Afghanistan.

3:57Her story is the story of thousands of Afghans, including two former colleagues that we're going to speak to on this programme today. It is such a, to use the phrase a journalist, use a split screen moment. Here, I'm in Kabul now. The streets are festooned with the white Taliban flag with their Arabic Islamic script. They're chanting in the streets, waving flags, celebrating their five years of victory. But today is a day fraught with grief, a day seared in memory for all too many Afghans. And you hear, Rebecca, from so many who say those who were in Kabul, the day started as any day would in Kabul.

4:37They were worried about the security, possible suicide bombings by the Taliban. And none of them imagined that by the end of the day, the Afghan president had fled. Taliban fighters were sitting at his desk and thousands of Afghans were making their way to the international airport in a panic, desperate to board any plane out to get out of a country falling to the Taliban, reversing. Not just 20 years of international engagement, taking away from Afghans all of that they had achieved. So it's a very difficult day for so many Afghans. And you mentioned there that the streets are festooned with celebratory Taliban sort of paraphernalia.

5:17But I understand women haven't been allowed to take part today. What is the current mood there in Kabul? Well, yes, Taliban is a movement of men and men who, many of whom are ideologically driven. When they came into the capital, many of them had never seen any women outside of their own household unless they were married. So 2021 was a day of excitement and joy and celebration back there for them. And it's the same kind of scenes on the streets here today, absent, of course, the cars rushing to the airport. But if there's one strong story that has emerged from five years of Taliban rule, the Taliban would say it's the story that we have now achieved the end of the war in this country.

5:59They say it's the first time in decades of Afghan history that one armed force controls all of the country. But the story for millions of Afghans is that women and girls are being erased from public life. It has been absolutely heartbreaking to speak to schoolgirls who have now have no other choice but to go to secret schools, to study online, to go to Islamic madrasas, women who've lost their jobs, pushed out of university. And so many areas, public parks even, are no-go areas for them. So for them, they feel this is not a regime for them. And on the international relations front, I mean, the West is criticised, isn't it, for abandoning Afghanistan, turning away from the plight of the people, drastically cutting aid as well, because it doesn't want to help the Taliban.

6:45But then other countries like India, China, Russia even officially recognises the Taliban. They are in talks with the Taliban. Does that give them legitimacy? And what impact does the West disengaging have? Only one country, Russia, has formally recognized the Taliban. That's even less than the number of countries which recognized it when it was controlled in the 1990s. But the Taliban point to so many countries, China, India, almost all of Afghanistan's neighbors, who have accredited diplomats, they've signed major investment deals. But it is, in effect, de facto of recognition. The Taliban would very much like to have their seat at the United Nations in New York.

7:28They would like to be part of the international community. But the ultra-conservative emir who's been issuing those hundreds of edicts, many of them focused on women and girls, is not budging on issue of girls' schools. And for Western countries and others, they simply cannot have formal relations with a country which doesn't accept internationally recognized standards of human rights. And that's Islamic countries as well. You mentioned that we've got some BBC, former BBC colleagues joining us as well. Yes, I have to say, I wish that I was sitting next to Zuhal Ahmed. Zuhal was working with the BBC in Kabul and also Bilal Sawarwi, who was also a dear BBC colleague here in Kabul.

8:11They found refuge in Toronto, the city of Toronto in Canada. They now have a second home and they're both joining us. Zuhal happens to be in France today, but both of them are on the line. Hello, salam to you, Bilal and to Zuhal. Hi, Liz. It's great to be with you again. But all I've been telling people the story of how when we used to meet in Kabul in those last years, 2019, 2020, you would say, Lisa, I've stopped saying see you soon when I say goodbye to friends because I never know whether those friends will still be alive the next day. And then I was so startled the day I made it to Kabul International Airport.

8:50and there I saw you in the queue to leave Afghanistan, something you never wanted to do. What are your reflections today, Bilal? Well, absolutely, it was devastating on a personal level. But in hindsight, I believe the Taliban have not learned from the pages of Afghan politics and from the recent history. They've squandered way too many opportunities. The leader of the Taliban, Habitullah Khunzada, has no flexibility on two issues at least. One is the issue of girls' education and significant participation of Afghan women in public life. Second is the issue of a possible national reconciliation process, if I could call it that.

9:34And let's not forget that Afghanistan never got a comprehensive peace process, which was heartbreaking to say the least because there's no ceasefire to start with. And what it was, it was an exit deal between the Americans and the Taliban that contributed massively, in my view, to the Taliban takeover. Five years down the line, being away from my country, being away from my friends and family, I could only hope that Afghans in power, and that specifically, or the Taliban at the moment, would rethink their policies, that they would stop crushing the dreams of millions of Afghan women. And hopefully Afghanistan could have some sort of a peace process where it can finally be the home of all Afghans.

10:23But probably that's wishful thinking as an Afghan and probably that's a hope that we will continue to cling on to. Yes, as always, you find a poetic way to describe the situation, saying that being in exile is like being in a waiting room. Zuhal, what are you thinking about today, about August the 15th, your memories of that time? You left a short time before with your husband and your little girl, your husband also a journalist, but you two were very much affected by that day, those days. Absolutely, Lise. And today, 15th of August, is a devastating day and memory for me and most of Afghans, especially those who are outside of country in exile and today brings takes me back to to that day where I was out fortunately should I say fortunately I feel guilty to say that but I was out with my family but I was in contact in close contact with my family my siblings and parents, my friends, my colleagues who were in absolute desperation and hopelessness and fear.

11:38And they were trying to get out of the country. And we were trying to find a way to take them out safely. And still to this day, I am in contact with them. I report on women's affairs and women's rights as a freelance journalist and I'm in contact with activists, teachers, former government employees, locals who are in absolute despair and hopelessness because they have lost the life that they had built for decades, the hopes that they had for their futures and the fact that we lost many cohorts and generations of doctors, engineers, teachers that our society could have. But unfortunately, due to the bans and restrictions, we lost that.

12:32Zuhal Ahad there. We also heard from Bilal Sawari, both former BBC Afghan journalists. They're now both based in Toronto. And of course, they were joined by our chief international correspondent Lise Doucette with her own memories of this day five years ago. Historic moment for Afghanistan and we'll be coming back to that story later this hour.

12:59Coming up later, British jazz pianist and composer David Lee turned 100 years old this week. So what is the secret behind his longevity? Is it playing jazz that keeps you young? You know, until I was 40, I smoked 30 to 35 cigarettes a day. After that, Havana cigars, and I still drink whiskey every day. If I'd known I was going to live this long, I would have definitely taken better care of myself. More top tips on ageing well from Dave Lee in a few minutes there. One other headline from the newsroom this hour. Two weeks after tens of thousands of mostly young Moroccans flooded Spain's northern African territory of Ceuta.

13:43Moroccan police have prevented hundreds from attempting a second mass break-in.

13:59This is Rebecca Kesby with NewsHour live from the BBC. Let's cross live now to Beirut because earlier today, 11 people, including children, were killed in southern Lebanon in Israeli airstrikes. Israel's defence forces said it was targeting a senior commander of Hezbollah, but the Lebanese president, Joseph Aoun, condemned the attack, saying it violates the framework agreement currently being brokered by the United States to try to reach a ceasefire, although, of course, Hezbollah is not involved directly in those negotiations. Nada Humzi is a correspondent for the National News, a Middle Eastern newspaper.

14:37She joins us live now from Beirut. Nada, first of all, what can you tell us about the circumstances of this attack today? Hi, it is the single deadliest strike since, it's the single deadliest attack since June when the ceasefire was renewed and the US brokered framework agreement was signed with, as you said, 11 people killed, five of them, three children and two women, obviously civilians and all from the same family. And Israel says that it attacked infrastructure belonging to Hezbollah and that it targeted a Hezbollah military commander. But of course, this drew very harsh, significantly harsh response from Lebanese authorities, with the Lebanese Prime Minister Nawaf Salam responding today that women and children who were killed are not military targets.

15:31And he and the president both said that these strikes sent a clear message with regard to the negotiation process, which by all accounts is already stalled. It was stalled during the last round of talks in Rome a week and a half, two weeks ago. Yeah, it's a really complex picture at the moment, actually, isn't it? Because as you say, we've got these US brokered negotiations going on. Hezbollah, though, are not involved. So, I mean, where are we with all of that? You mentioned the meeting last week. There are more scheduled, I think. But how is it going? Well, like I said, they're stalled. It is a little bit of a mess.

16:10A significant portion of people in Lebanon are very critical of this framework agreement because they don't have faith that, well, first of all, Hezbollah has flat out rejected it. Obviously, that complicates things. And then also Israel doesn't exactly have a very good reputation for abiding by these kinds of agreements. That's certainly the case for the 2024 ceasefire. And as we're seeing, it's the case now with these strikes. And as well, while these talks were happening, the last round of talks in Rome earlier this month, when it sent out a forced displacement order to an entire village in South Lebanon and initiated strikes across the south.

16:51Yes. Oh, sorry. Carry on. Oh, no. So I'm just saying, you know, it's very complicated. In the first round, they had decided on these test zones, these pilot zones where the Lebanese army would supposedly go in, Hezbollah would disarm and Israel would withdraw. So they've started to establish these zones, but the very first zones, the tester zones that were established, didn't even really have Israeli military presence in them. Only one of the villages had some presence and they were just on the outskirts. They withdrew. And in fact, later after the Lebanese army took over that pilot zone, the Israeli army still invaded that area to install an earthen barrier.

17:34So these areas which didn't even have Israeli forces, now have Israeli forces going in whenever they want to, essentially. And we haven't even established real pilot zones yet where there is real physical Israeli presence. And this hasn't really even been a test for the Lebanese army to disarm Hezbollah yet because, again, these areas were fairly minuscule in the grand scheme of the South. Well, thanks for that update, Nada. That's Nada Hamzi, their correspondent for the National News, speaking to us live from Beirut.

18:15You're listening to NewsHour live from the BBC. I'm Rebecca Kesby. More now on our top story this hour, the fifth anniversary of the Taliban's seizure of power in Afghanistan as the last remaining US troops withdrew. As we heard earlier in the programme, the last few frightening days before the Taliban returned to power were chaotic and dangerous. Thousands fled over the borders, including to neighbouring Pakistan. Many more crowded to the airport in Kabul, some so desperate to leave the country, they hung onto planes as they took off into the air. Dozens were killed. Well, in the weeks that followed, there was sharp international criticism for the Biden administration.

18:55Was it the right decision to leave Afghanistan? Why was the collapse of the Afghan government so rapid? Well, President Joe Biden defended his decision to continue with the planned withdrawal. Here he is speaking two weeks after the collapse of the Afghan government. I was not going to extend this forever war. And I was not extending a forever exit. We've got to learn from our mistakes. To me, there are two that are paramount. First, we must set missions with clear, achievable goals. not ones we'll never reach. And second, we must stay clearly focused on the fundamental national security interests of the United States of America.

19:42Well, David Petraeus was the four-star general that led US forces for a year until July 2011 in Afghanistan. He then went on to serve as director of the CIA. And he takes a different view to President Biden. Here on NewsHour on Friday, he told us the drawdown of US troops had been a mistake. Really, the thought that it brings back for me every time is that we should not have left and that we did not have to leave. I had argued for quite some time with then Vice President Biden, then later President Biden and his team members, that the shibboleth that you have to end endless wars is not axiomatic.

20:23You can continue, quote, endless wars as long as they are sustainable and sustainability is measured in the expenditure of blood and of treasure. Well, earlier I spoke to Laurel Miller, president of the Asia Foundation in the United States and a congressionally appointed member of the bipartisan Afghanistan War Commission. I asked her first, was it a mistake for the US to leave when it did and how it did? I don't believe it was a mistake for the US to exit Afghanistan, but I do think there are a lot of errors that were made along the way over a long period of time. And I do think there are ways that the withdrawal could have been implemented more smoothly to a certain extent.

21:09But, you know, I do think people tend to forget that at the time that the U.S. withdrew, Afghanistan was still very much a hot conflict. And there were more people dying in Afghanistan in conflict than anywhere else in the world at that time, not Americans, but Afghans. And so any suggestion that this was a sustainable conflict has to bring into that picture the effect on everyone, particularly Afghans. Clearly, there was fault found with the Afghan government itself and the administration level within the Afghan military as well, questions about where funding had gone and so on. But it was known that the Afghan forces really didn't have the capacity to hold back an advancing Taliban.

22:01It was known before the US troops pulled out that a collapse of the government was expected. I mean, was it irresponsible then for President Biden to continue with the withdrawal at that point? You know, the Taliban was gaining ground in Afghanistan over a very long period of time. not only at the end. And I think if there's fault to be found, it's in allowing the withdrawal to happen in a way that looked surprising, the collapse of Afghanistan, even though it wasn't. The scenario that actually unfolded was unsurprising for close observers of what was happening in Afghanistan. But I think you can see ways in which the preparation for a highly likely scenario was inadequate.

22:50No matter when the U.S. withdrew from Afghanistan, it was going to be messy. You can see evidence of that in Afghanistan's own experience and in the U.S. withdrawal from Vietnam and other experiences around the world. And the idea that the U.S. could just forever be in Afghanistan propping up the Afghan government that was increasingly precarious. I just don't see a strong argument for that. But I mean, I guess the question then is, you know, was it all worth it? Because, you know, around two and a half thousand US soldiers died in 20 years in Afghanistan, 20 and a half thousand were injured. That's a lot of American blood.

23:33And now the situation there is the same, perhaps even worse than it was before 9-11 and the US led invasion. There are so many different ways that you could look at that. In terms of creating a stable government in Afghanistan, a democracy in Afghanistan, I think you'd be hard pressed to say it was worth it because that all unraveled. There was success on the primary counterterrorism mission in Afghanistan. But you could also say that that success was achieved maybe even a decade before the final U.S. withdrawal. I think the overriding lesson to draw here is that once stuck in, it's very hard to unstick.

24:20And so, I mean, how should the current U.S. government deal with Afghanistan? should it at least engage with the Taliban? Like other countries, India and China have been doing that more often now. If it did engage with the Taliban, I guess at least aid could be got through to ordinary people. Or should it be taking a tougher line again? I don't think a tougher line is going to produce any kind of results in terms of Taliban changes of their positions. The Taliban want to have a relationship with the United States and other countries around the world, but they want it at absolutely zero cost and compromise for themselves.

25:01And that's just not a realistic position for them, which doesn't mean you can't talk to them about issues of mutual interest. And U.S. officials have said in the current administration that the Taliban has been moderately cooperative on some counterterrorism common interests. So that suggests that there is some kind of relationship happening, but very difficult to engage with a government that has completely erased women from the public space in Afghanistan and has other policies that are dramatically in violation of human rights. That's Laurel Miller, the president of the Asia Foundation in the States and a congressionally appointed member of the bipartisan US-Afghan War Commission.

25:55To Ukraine next, where July was one of the deadliest months for civilians since the full-scale Russian invasion began in February 2022, with Russia launching daily drone and missile attacks across the country. Ukraine has responded with its own campaign of long-range strikes inside Russia, targeting oil refineries, export terminals and logistics hubs. Last week, Russia's defence ministry said it had intercepted hundreds of Ukrainian drones across 19 regions. So what does all this mean for everyday life in Russia? The BBC's James Beardsworth has been speaking to Russian civilians to get their take, and we've changed their names to protect their anonymity.

26:46In the city of Electrostel, 60 kilometres east of Moscow, a Ukrainian drone crashes into a warehouse of the Russian retailer Wildberries. The explosions and resulting fires, which burnt for three days, so large they could be seen from space, destroyed tens of millions of dollars worth of goods. The warehouse burned down, and we were told that all of our products, everything we had stored there, was lost. Margarita owns a small business selling confectionery across Russia. The strikes on the electrostyle plant cost her business thousands of dollars. Wildberries became one of our main sales channels.

27:28Our suites can be shipped to different cities across Russia and to neighbouring countries. But now we need to change our approach due to recent events. The strikes on the retailer, Russia's equivalent of Amazon, are part of a recent Ukrainian campaign of long-range drone strikes targeting critical infrastructure deep inside Russia. A plan, President Zelensky says, that is aimed at bringing the war back to Russia. Often thousands of kilometres from the front lines, the drone attacks have disrupted daily life and remind Russians of a war that Moscow launched over four years ago. Polina is a teacher in Moscow.

28:13Now that we know that a drone can hit our apartments, we feel scared for us, for our lives, for our relatives, you know. And we feel that the war is closer than ever. Though the strikes are much less frequent than Russia's daily drone and missile attacks across Ukraine, where civilian deaths in July were at their highest since the first few months of the war, Polina said the situation in the Russian capital is becoming more and more difficult. In Russia's Kursk region, closer to the Ukrainian border, the situation is far more perilous. People drive around at 150 km per hour, even though the speed limit on most roads is 90, because it's believed that driving that fast can reduce the probability of a drone hitting your car.