Zelensky dismisses Ukraine’s defence minister

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:06How did the United States build the largest soft power empire in the world with the help of some tiny metal objects? I'm Tristan Redmond, one of the hosts of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. To mark 250 years of the United States, we speak to Roman Mars of 99 % invisible. This soft power, this influence was an incredible invention. For more, listen to The Global Story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:03Hello and welcome to NewsHour live from the BBC World Service in London. I'm Rebecca Kesby and we begin the programme today in Ukraine where President Zelensky is facing severe criticism and demonstrations in the streets after his surprise decision to sack the popular defence minister, Mikhailo Fedorov. Thousands of people have taken to the streets and not just in the capital, Kyiv.

1:36That's people shouting shame there on the streets of Kiev and there have been other demonstrations in Lviv, Kharkiv and Dnipro Many protesters have been holding up placards calling for Mr Fedorov to be reinstated Stop sabotaging victory, read one What are you doing, you idiot, read another And these protesters explained why they were there In my opinion, removing a truly effective person who fought corruption, made important decisions, and strengthened Ukraine's defence capabilities is one of the worst decisions made since the beginning of the full-scale invasion. This is also reflected in the statements of military personnel and well-known Ukrainian public figures following Fedorov's dismissal.

2:25Finally, when changes began taking place in our country, I started to believe that we could win this war. I began to see the results of those changes. And now those very changes are being reversed. I believe that in just six months, Mikhail Fedorov accomplished more than the Ministry of Defence had in 35 years of Ukraine's independence. Well, Mikhail Fedorov, who's 35, has been a key figure in the successful expansion of Ukraine's drone warfare against Russia over the past six months. But it's reported that he did not have a good relationship with Ukraine's top general, the commander-in-chief, Oleksandr Sersky.

3:03And that is why President Zelensky has let him go. Well, Mr Fedorov has been speaking about it. We've voiced up some of his words, and these were his comments. We came up against the fact that all the initiatives we proposed started being blocked and the commander-in-chief of the armed forces, Oleksandr Sierski, is not ready to speak openly about the problems we talked about face-to-face. He's ready to go to private meetings, weave intrigues, think that someone has commissioned some kind of media campaign rather than seeing that the problem lies in the actions that are taking place. I don't need the post of defence minister in order to be defence minister.

3:44I need that post in order to win the war. Well, a short time ago, I spoke to a Ukrainian MP for the opposition European Solidarity Party, Volodymyr Ariev. What's his reaction to the sacking of Mikhailo Fedorov? I don't think it's a good decision. Moreover, I think that it really harms the positive changes achieved in the last half year since the time when Mr. Fedorov were appointed as Minister of Defence. And I, as a member of the opposition fraction, voted for the member of the current governmental team. I was pretty sure that Fedorov can handle all this difficult situation, and he was a game changer for many things.

4:36For instance, switching off Starlink on non-controlled territories, and it gave the Ukrainian army possibility to move on the front line. He also started reforms to make procurements more transparent and effective. And some interested persons who used the corrupted system to get personal profit were not satisfied of that. And the second was conflict between Minister of Defense and Military Commander Sersky. They had completely polar views to the reforms which are necessary for the army. Well, that does seem to have been the reason that Mr Zelensky has sacked Mr Fedorov. He said that he regretted having to choose between the two men, General Sersky being the other one.

5:36I mean, do you think he's made the right choice in terms of winning the war? No, it's completely a wrong choice. Tsursky is criticized by many MPs, and of course, his methods are likely to compare to the Soviet Union military style. But Fedorov, he is from the completely new digital generation, and he understands that the war in Ukraine now is not like Second World War. It's a war of technologies and resilience for both. And he understands the future much better. And he was two steps ahead of the Russians to impose new technologies. And it was really effective. Right. I mean, Mr. Fedorov has been speaking and has been actually quite critical of General Sersky, saying that instead of finding a way to defeat Russian asymmetrically, he's found a way of splitting our country.

6:41But he goes on to say that Mr Zelensky should hear the Ukrainian people. He knows what to do and the situation will be 100 % resolved. Do you think he's talking there about sacking General Siersky and putting him back in as defence minister? Very difficult to predict the development of the situation. If Zelensky really takes care on the success of the Ukrainian army on the battlefield, and if he understands that the vision of the future of the war is much more important to have than to have a tactic solutions with using mass stormtroopers, it will be a very clear answer. That in this case, the future has to defeat the past.

7:34And the changes are really, really inevitable. But we understand that also Zelensky is sometimes too stubborn in all tasks, not only in necessaries. So I understand that for a while we can stuck for some period with uncertain situation. But I think that the situation on the front will move Zelensky to do something. And society now is really fed up with the things that could be not effective. And the protests, likewise, a year ago, clearly shown to the president that society will not be calm, understanding if the will of people and the will of the president then go in different ways. Yeah, the protests do seem to be gathering momentum.

8:32I mean, ultimately, what's happening today in Kiev around the political scene is all a gift to Vladimir Putin, surely. I mean, this plays into his hands very nicely. Protests are definitely not a gift to Putin. But this scandals and ineffective military governance, yes, this is much better gift than other reflections that Ukrainian society has shown to the president. And that was an MP for the opposition European Solidarity Party, Volodymyr Ariev, speaking to us just before we came on air. So how serious is all of this politically for President Zelensky? And what will it do to the Ukrainian war effort against Russia.

9:20We're joined live now by our Eastern Europe correspondent, Sarah Rainsford, who's in Western Ukraine. Sarah, first of all, can you tell us a bit more about the significance of the contribution Mr Fedorov made and why he is so popular with the people? Yeah, I think it coincides very much, his time in the ministry coincides very much with a real campaign by Ukraine to increase the pressure on Russia. And that has been successful in terms of the long range and the mid range drone strikes. And that is part of the reason why he's so popular with many Ukrainians, because they associate him with that time when basically the first time in almost four years when they felt that they're on the front foot in their war to defend themselves against Russia's invasion.

10:06So it is fair to say that it's partly about that kind of coincidence, but I don't think that is a coincidence. So the fact is that because of the way Mikhail Fedorov has tried to reform the defence ministry, he's focused very much on cutting through bureaucracy, on getting equipment to the troops when and where they need it. So, for example, one of the things he did was to say, OK, we don't have the budget for a massive amount of drone purchasing right now, so let's take the wages that are meant to be allocated for the end of the year, let's take the money for December, worry about December when December comes, and use that money right now for the needs we have right now on the front line.

10:43So he kind of does things in an unorthodox way because he's very focused on the results. And the results for him mean the technology being in place to allow Ukraine's troops to fight a modern kind of war and to give them the best possible advantage at this point. Because the thing that I've been hearing for the last three weeks over and over again is that Ukraine doesn't want to go into another winter like the last winter. It was terrible. It was freezing cold. There was no heating. They were struggling. They want to try to push their peace talks right now. And I think that it's fair to say, Nathanael Federer's approach has been quite central to that push.

11:16So we heard there from that MP who was himself quite critical, it seems, of General Sersky, kind of implying that he's a little bit old-fashioned in his methods. What is the view of him more generally in the country? I mean, it's the view that you hear increasingly. Certainly, I think this dispute has really blown that out into the public because what the protesters have been saying is one of the chants they've been saying is we want to go forward towards Europe and not back to the USSR. And there is this kind of presentation of what's happening now as a battle between the generations. So Mikhail Fedorov, the young techie guy, the tech savvy guy on the one hand and the old old style general on the other.

11:59And the suggestion was that by trying to appoint the current interior minister to become the next defence minister, that President Zelensky was kind of playing to the old school, the old guys, and not to the new face, which is represented by Fedorov and the way he's trying to shift Ukraine and shift its defence ministry too and its military effort. So it's certainly being presented as kind of battle of the two guards by many people. Yeah, so where does this leave President Zelensky then? I mean, it can't be very comfortable having people out on the streets. I mean, as I mentioned, one person there calling him an idiot for letting this happen.

12:34Has he got to do a U-turn now or could this be politically dangerous for him? I think it is a really difficult moment. He obviously had a headache because there was quite clearly a conflict between his commander-in-chief and his defence minister. That was something that people rumoured and talked about, but not openly. And now that is out in the open. So he had that headache to deal with. But now he has another one, which is that the defence minister who he's just sacked is now openly criticising his commander-in-chief. So he needs to decide whether this is going to explode into a massive crisis of confidence in Ukraine's military effort or indeed a crisis of confidence in him and his decision making, or if somehow he's going to kind of nip this in the bud and manage what could be a blooming crisis.

13:16But I think the fact there are protesters out on the streets, the fact that these people, these specific people are making these specific allegations, it is a problem for Vladimir Zelensky. And as yet, we don't quite know how he's going to deal with it. Well, I know you'll be watching it for us and we'll be bringing us all the latest on that. Thank you so much for joining us live there from Western Ukraine. That's the BBC's Eastern Europe correspondent, Sarah Rainsford, there joining us live.

14:00Coming up later in the programme, after the success of this year's Artemis lunar mission, NASA's head of science tells us what's next. We will discover billions of new galaxies, almost one galaxy for every person. We will discover tens of thousands of new planets, tens of billions of new stars. I mean, that's what we're going to be doing and we're going to be studying dark energy. Fascinating conversation with NASA's head of science coming up later this hour. A reminder of our headlines. A court in Italy has given a 12-year sentence to the former motorway boss blamed for the fatal collapse of a bridge in Genoa back in 2018.

14:42We're going to come back to that story later. And as we've been hearing, Ukraine's president says he sacked his defence minister because of tension between Mikhailo Fedorov and the head of the armed forces. the dismissal has sparked public anger.

15:01This is Rebecca Kesby with NewsHour live from the BBC. Now, it's almost a week since the resumption of hostilities between the United States and Iran. Earlier this week, President Trump threatened to target Iran's energy infrastructure if it failed to return to talks. But Iran's top negotiator, Mohammed Bagar-Galabaf, said that Tehran had no reason to abide by any agreement that doesn't benefit the country. Pakistan, which has been mediating between the two countries, is appealing for both sides to return to the negotiating table. But the exchanges of fire have continued, with the US expanding its strikes right across Iran now, and Tehran hitting back with drone attacks against US military facilities in Jordan, Kuwait, also Bahrain.

15:47One woman from Tehran sent this message to the BBC, and her words have been voiced up by a colleague. Everyone in Tehran is worried and upset. Yesterday at the supermarket, someone mentioned that Abadan had been hit. Everyone was distressed and exchanged silent glances. It was as if a lump had formed in everyone's throat. Well, Barbara Plett Usher is our correspondent watching developments from Jerusalem and she joins us live. Barbara, first of all, what can you tell us about these latest strikes? They seem to be happening every night. They've been happening almost every night for about a week now and certainly five consecutive nights.

16:28The Americans said that they struck coastal defences and missile sites in the southern part of the country, which is along the Strait of Hormuz, because they said that they are trying to prevent Iran from being able to threaten shipping traffic in the strait. But Iranian media have said they went wider last night. They said that Tehran had activated its anti-aircraft defenses and also that there had been explosions heard in the north and in the west, including in the province right next to Tehran, saying that an airport, parts of an airport had been hit. Now, the Americans haven't confirmed these strikes, but that was the news that it seemed as if the strikes were expanding.

17:14And Iran has also continued to target, well, right across the region, really, as far as Jordan, Kuwait again. What can you tell us about those attacks? Iran has been almost pretty consistently attacking those three over the past week, Bahrain, Kuwait and Jordan. And what they say is that they're attacking various facilities at American military bases or bases that are used by Americans. And they're basically saying that these bases are being used to carry out, to help the Americans carry out these strikes on Iran. Today they focused in on Jordan and they specifically even said that that air base in Jordan had been used for a strike that hit near a children's cancer hospital last night, causing everyone to evacuate.

18:02Now, it's not clear if these bases are being directly used for the airstrikes. warships is a place from which we've seen the missiles and the planes launch. But I know at the beginning of the war anyway, Iran's neighbors made clear they would not allow these bases to be used in the war so that they could appear neutral. That may or may not have changed, but that is definitely what the Iranians are charging. And Barbara, in the past couple of hours or so, we've seen reports here that Iran is trying to get the Houthis to block shipping in another part of the region. This is something that's been talked about before.

18:37And would that be a major escalation if that happened? Yeah, I think it would. I mean, again, the Iranians, what they did is they threatened to attack another route used for oil and gas shipping. They didn't actually name it. But the analysis of observers was that they could be talking about using their Houthi allies to target shipping in the Red Sea, closing the Babel-Mandeb Strait, which is the gateway to the Red Sea. And that would definitely open up a new front in the energy crisis because it's a critical alternative outlet for Gulf oil and other products, especially now with Hormuz closed.

19:13You had, for example, Saudi Arabia has been diverting more than 70 % of its normal crude exports to the Red Sea since this conflict began. So it would have a big impact. Barbara, good to speak to you. Thank you so much for joining us live there. That's the BBC's Barbara Plets Usher.

19:33Next, the port of Rotterdam is Europe's largest freight hub built on land reclaimed from the North Sea and long powered by fossil fuels. The port hosts some of Europe's biggest oil chemicals and container terminals, but now it pitches itself as a laboratory for green ports with a climate plan that promises to slash its own direct and purchased energy emissions by 90 % by 2030 and move towards climate neutrality by mid-century. But the sprawling industrial hub faces a new climate lawsuit that questions whether a port of this scale can ever truly go green. Our Netherlands correspondent Anna Holligan has been given special access to the port and the people shaping its future.

20:17The port of Rotterdam has a problem. Our current emissions are 29 million tonnes of CO2. The equivalent of? 60 ,000 return flights from Amsterdam to Los Angeles. We're driving through the vast industrial site with Mark Van Dyke, head of external relations at the Port of Rotterdam Authority. It's not very good. Sometimes we are just waiting till there is one magic solution that suddenly solves all the climate emissions. Well, I can promise you that won't be there. Standing on the edge of a grassy verge, The horizon is dominated by cranes, bulk carriers and container stacks. The visible parts of a vast energy and chemicals hub.

21:04Just step down a little bit because we don't need to be in this. Sheltering from the wind. Director of the environmental group, Advocates for the Future, Michael van Vissen. We are not asking to shut down the port immediately. This is a really big industry. We are still, as a society, very dependent on it. He's launched a lawsuit to compel the port to reach its own climate targets faster. Among other things, the port is developing a hydrogen hub, investing in on - and offshore power, and there's also an effort to mitigate CO2 emissions with carbon capture and storage. So do you think those innovations that they're working on will have any real impact?

21:47To be honest, no.

21:51we've just boarded a gleaming white yacht have to get my sea legs back on hi you're on the boats of the port of rotterdam oscar van veen is the port's director of innovation we try to work together with the polluters and slowly face them out all right as fast as possible of course. It's such a challenge when the core business is so fossil fuel intensive. We say we'd rather have it grey here than black elsewhere, so find innovative ways to phase it out and phase the new energy carriers in. What do you think will make the biggest difference? As Europe, we have to create a level of playing field.

22:37We want our part to be greener. Do you see innovations being capable of getting to the point where the people who are working in the fossil fuel industry now will have been redeployed into something that's cleaner and greener? Absolutely. There still be factories, only what we call coals anymore, but it will be on hydrogen. Also with the digital transition, with every new technology, people were afraid of their jobs, but that it resulted in more jobs, only different. For instance, also AI. It can help us do our job better. But many of the biggest emitters in this port answer to headquarters in the US or China.

23:18If the rules in Rotterdam become too tight, they can simply move. And a contrast in legislation sharpens Rotterdam's concern and the activists resolve. If we can get a court to say you really need to do something against climate change, that can set the precedent not only for the Netherlands, but for the world as a whole. The ports insist they are heading in the same direction. The disagreement is over how fast and how radically to change. That report complete with seagulls by the BBC's Anna Holligan there in the Netherlands. Stay with us, you're with NewsHour from the BBC.

24:03The CIA has been carrying out covert operations around the world for decades. How has it shaped how people feel about the U.S.? I'm Asma Khalid. And I'm Tristan Redman. And together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As part of our series to mark the United States' 250th birthday, we're exploring the CIA's hidden history. Do you think the word of the United States will be trusted in years to come? For more, check out The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

24:58United States build the largest soft power empire in the world with the help of some tiny metal objects. I'm Tristan Redmond, one of the hosts of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. To mark 250 years of the United States, we speak to Roman Mars of 99 % invisible. This soft power, this influence was an incredible invention. For more, listen to The Global Story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

25:29Now, take a listen to this.

25:40That is the sound of a new species of monkey discovered by researchers in the forests of the Democratic Republic of Congo. Colobus congoensis, to give it black-furred little primate its full Latin name, is part of a wider grouping of colobus monkeys, which are herbivores. They live high up in the tree canopy of the Lumami National Park in central DRC. But it's only the fifth monkey species to be discovered in Africa in the past 75 years. Scientists embarked on this mission to find the orange-lipped monkey based on a blurry photo taken of one from nearly 20 years ago. And some local people also knew of the monkey's existence, but they rather call it its common name, Likweli.

26:25Professor Kate Detweiler and PhD student Junia Mbokul from Florida Atlantic University both played key roles in its discovery. The new colobus liquele is a medium-sized monkey, but it's the smallest colobus, and it's covered in dark hair, and then on its face it's got this really magnificent orange cream-coloured lips and area under the nose that sticks out, especially when it roars, and then it's got this spiky black hair around the side of the face and on the top of the head. It's not easy. The Lomami National Park is a very remote place, difficult to access and high, and probably this is why it took a long time to actually discover the species and also collect more data on it.