2025 Mega Conference Championships Preview with Tom Curran and J.J. Jansen

20:22Jourdan Rodrigue:Well, I really like what you're saying on this, because if I'm Mike Rabel, I try to just make it as cloudy and confusing on the back end as possible for a quarterback who, again, yay preseason, but has not taken live reps against non-regulated, non-base defenses in many years at this point. And so I, I, their coaches talk all the time about, they don't even know year to year, what the hell they're looking at with coverage is they have to get into it. They have to, they have to see it multiple times to actually understand it. And imagine being a quarterback coming in cold against that. I just think they just make it, keep it simple up front, make it as cloudy as possible in the back.

21:01Jourdan Rodrigue:And I think Mike Vrabel And Kerr, to your point, they do have the tools and the, I know we use this word a lot, but the ability to make like a bespoke game plan in that regard. Yeah, they just got to get carried. The running game, I think, needs to be better. And the Patriots have really defended the run well in the playoffs and towards the end of the season. Since Spillane came back and since Milton Williams came back, it's really been huge. And kind of all these depth pieces are playing their part. They really look like I think Mike Braybill wanted them to look all year finally at the end of the year.

21:35So I think they can they can do a good job. We don't know if Carlton Davis is going to be available. I think they can do a good job defensively. The reason why I don't just think this is anything more than a coin flip game is like the best unit in this game should be or at least could be the Denver Broncos defense. And they they have to go out there and they have to be that team. They've been together for a while. It is a veteran Broncos defense under Vance Joseph that, you know, to my eye, maybe peaked last year. They're still very, very good, but they have had five games this year where they gave up at least 26 first downs.

22:16It's kind of like a hand-picked number. You know, I'm clearly doing that because the Patriots, for instance, they didn't have one game where they gave up that many, but that's like five different games where teams went up and down. the field. So you think about the Packers and the Jaguars and the commanders of all teams. And then the Bills laughed last week. They are such a strange team because they also don't turn the ball over almost at all, which is surprising. I think that's a little fluky. So how are they so good? And this is where the matchup against the Patriots seems to really go in their favor.

22:47They're one of the all-time teams in sacking the quarterback and hitting the quarterback. Zach Allen led the team. It led the league in quarterback hits and Drake may takes tons of sacks that two times this year that they've gone up against heavy sack teams, which was, I think the Falcons and bucks. He took a ton of sacks. And then they also are the best red zone defense in the entire NFL. And the Patriots have struggled all season in the red zone. So can you, you know, make Drake may make mistakes, fumble the ball, Patrick sack them. and then just make them kick field goals. Like, that seems like a reasonable ask for this Broncos defense to keep them in the game and maybe win, like, a lower-scoring, ugly game.

23:30Patrick Claybon:And that's the question, right? How aggressive are the Patriots going to be, considering that being aggressive both on offense and defense may be the recipe for losing the game? Like, playing into those strengths where I think this is a pass rush, much like the Texans' pass rush in the secondary, that's going to be trying to create and force these turnovers because they know they're probably going to need them. And so I can see Drake May's legs being a huge part of this game. If the edges get too deep, if the corners are in man, where it's one guy to beat, Drake May gets 20 and 30 yards. They make five or six of those plays.

24:06Patrick Claybon:That may be enough to win the game.

24:07Jourdan Rodrigue:I think, and I would say, not to go all galaxy brain here with it, but I would say maybe you try to bait that a little bit. If you're the Broncos defense, maybe you try to bait the quarterback into kind of rushing through the front of the cup, as they say, when you're rushing around the pocket. Because when you have a guy like Nick Benito, who's chasing quarterbacks down and making these splash plays and forcing turnovers, very importantly, and you have Drake May, who, yes, has had issues with ball security, with protecting the football. I do think that there's a potential, like, variance there that could be very, very significant in this game.

24:45Jourdan Rodrigue:And I wonder if you try it a couple of times, try to bait him into rushing to see how well he is protecting the ball in those moments. I mean, he fumbled six times in two weeks. It's a little bit of a fiasco for him. And it's unlike how he's been the rest of the season, which is if he makes big mistakes, he very quickly tends to kind of, you almost can see it. It's like, okay, I'm going to go to school and I'm not going to make that mistake again the next week. We've worked on it. And the fact that the Texans game and that the weather was a factor and obviously the pass rush was a factor in a couple of them.

25:22But a couple other times, you know, I think him holding on to the ball and running a little loosely was a bigger factor. The fact that he didn't kind of take that lesson of ball security away from the first playoff game is really concerning. And that's why, like, the run game to me is so important. I think you're right about the scramble because you think about Josh Allen. And I went back to watch like last week and like they're hitting them with those zone runs. And one of the reasons the Bills didn't end up winning is I think they they fell behind enough where they had to go away from the run.

25:54Not completely. The Broncos never really got James Cook in the running game under control. They didn't. And a lot of it was these zone runs where they take advantage of Zach Allen, you know, going upfield and the rushers going upfield. and they had huge holes in terms of their running game. And so Ramondre is not James Cook, but maybe Travion Henderson can pop a big one. And the Patriots, I think, all talked about how much they loved that one drive at the end of the Texans game where they got the ball deep in their end zone and they ran four straight first downs almost all over the side of Morgan Moses and Mike Owenu.

26:36And I think if they can do that, that would be the same side of the field that the bills was running against last week. Like that to me is calms everything down so that Drake may isn't in all these third and in longs last week, you know, they were in third and nine, they averaged 9.7 yards on third down for most of the game. So it's like, yeah, that's when turnovers happen. And so they need to avoid that because they couldn't run for most of the game last week.

26:59Jourdan Rodrigue:I love that point because we've talked since the preseason really about there's, there was going to be a lot of work to do for Travion Henderson in terms of It's really tough for a young running back in the first place. And then we had heard really positive commentary about his pass pro. We didn't actually really see it until late in the season. One of the most gorgeous plays he's made, by the way, in his rookie season, not an explosive play, but a blitz pickup last week. Good call. This is a potential for him because of what we know about him to be true versus some of the other backs on that roster, is that he is a home run hitter.

27:37Jourdan Rodrigue:he's not a guy that's going to rip you off a bunch of doubles or triples he is a home run hitter player and so if he has the right zone the right crease and there's a vulnerability vulnerability there there is a potential that the broncos defense that is among the best in the league at limiting explosive plays and absolutely truncates most teams down in the run game they are still susceptible to that based on what james cook was able to do the lowest success rate allowed

28:05Patrick Claybon:in terms of at least in terms of success rate, which I know. Yeah, I'm a fan of. No, I am. The Jags had the advantage of them total run defense, but this Broncos defense, 35 % success rate on the ball against them. They are a very hard team to run against, despite what we saw last week from the Bills. There has been the games that pop up. They really are a team that beat up badly on bad opponents. And like I mentioned, those five to eight games where they kind of let teams go up and down the field. They haven't, they're an interesting defense. They're a very good defense, but they're eighth right now in weighted DVOA on defense.

28:41That sounds about right to me. Like that, that, you know, that the Rams are ahead of them, that the Patriots are pretty, pretty close, that they're a defense that has such clear strengths. And that's where the Patriots can lose this game. Like Benito and Cooper and Allen and Franklin Myers, who have somehow all had at least, what, seven sacks for two straight seasons? Like, that's an outrageous combination. Going up against, you know, Will Campbell is coming off the two worst games of his career. Jared Wilson is a rookie. Garrett Bradbury is not giving me a lot of confidence. I actually feel pretty good about the right side of the Patriots line.

29:21But, like, that could be where they get you. Because even against the best, you know, offensive lines, they can just dominate.

29:28Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah. And, and Vance Joseph, you know, there are times when we've seen him really like the five man fronts and then, you know, it's just mathematical. You can load up three plus two over on the, over on that left side. And that's spells a worst case scenario. I think for that side of the Patriots offensive line and inclusive to the center, who is going to have to help Drake may understand and diagnose what he's seeing, because I don't know, there's something about this group. You you've touched on it a couple of times. Like I test and film, like not as dominant as we saw last season, but they, to me, this is a, we know exactly when to turn it on type of defense.

30:06Jourdan Rodrigue:And that is a championship caliber defense. If you saw it with the 2021 Rams, for example, with an Aaron Donald with the Von Miller, like not totally through some of that season really showing up in, in full strength, but in these key moments to make a splash play that's when they're setting up their own shots like a run stop on third on second down or third down leading to the sack on fourth down and some of the pass rush like they this is a really veteran group that understands like how heavily to turn it on and how to turn it on in a moment like this yeah they like you can as easily see who funga being a problem in a couple big plays for the Patriots as you could see him forcing a couple turnovers.

30:53Like he is a boomer bus guy. You, do you think it's Patrick Sertan traveling with Stefan digs? No,

31:01Patrick Claybon:I think between digs and booty, it's going to be Sertan over on the right side, rally Moss and the officials are going to have their particular opportunities where I think this game hinges is who Fonga and the Broncos back, like the back part of the linebacker core. I'm blanking on my favorite Broncos linebacker. Singleton? Alex Singleton. Alex Singleton, where Hunter Henry was so good on play action passes all season. You kind of have to throw the Texans game out because like Hunter Henry was just not involved in the proceedings a lot there because the Texans defense presented such a unique problem there.

31:39Patrick Claybon:I think run game, play action. I know it's tough to have Drake may take his medicine against this, but it's like, I see nothing but a very boring Patriots offense doing just what it needs.

31:51Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah.

31:52Patrick Claybon:To, to make this not interesting. I tend to agree. I think it'll be interesting. I think the Broncos have a real good chance to win this game. Cause I can just see the gate afterwards, like the defense, like being, being the story that's this defense that's been around for three years, really veteran. And that they're like, this, this is their moment. Um, Drake may last week that their plan against the Texans makes me wonder though, if they'll go the opposite way. I think they were ultra aggressive almost because they didn't respect the Texans offense. And I think it actually was a smart approach because they had so many disastrous drives yet.

32:29They were really kind of going for home runs and they hit like three of them, which it's as much as an offense has scored against the Texans. Literally all year is three touchdowns. And Drake may when they went man last week, And this is a great man team, Houston. He was eight for 12 for 106 yards and three touchdowns, had his scrambles. The Broncos are one of the highest man coverage rate teams in league. I think they're second. And so I think they're going to take their shots because that's just, as you like to say, that's what Drake may likes to do is go get buckets. He's got to go down swinging.

33:01And maybe they'll think like if, if we, you know, if we have some three and outs and whatnot, like they're not going to score a million points with Stidham.

33:07Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah. And I think if you're going to go man against Drake may, your pressure better get there. And even the heaviest man teams are still zoning defenses for the most part. So you could still make things cloudy and pick your spots, maybe press a little bit tighter. But this is one of those where getting him to turn the ball over is like written on the whiteboard in every single defensive meeting room, the entire, everything, every, you know, the most important thing, you know, we've said it all year is Drake may. He is the most important thing. Two years now, two years now. He's the only thing that matters.

33:40The only thing that matters in the Broncos building,

33:43Jourdan Rodrigue:the only thing that matters is getting him to fritz out and turn the ball over as he has been in, in big fits and spurts this season. Yeah. And he, and he, and he keeps swinging. If he can get through this game, he'll do a few things that are unique. It'll be, it'll be the second youngest quarterback to ever make the Superbowl. Dan Marino being the youngest. I was like, wasn't it Roethlisberger? But Roethlisberger was like, you know, 10 months older or something like that. He was never young. Let's be. He was something like 10 years older or 10 months older than May would be. He'd also be the first Patriots quarterback to win in Denver in the playoffs.

34:17They're 0-4. There was that Jake Plummer game, which ended the three-peat bid, where he got a big victory. And then a couple Peyton Manning wins, including the last time the Broncos were in the AFC Championship, the game where it came up a two-point conversion short to Rob Gronkowski I can't wait. Yes.

34:40Jourdan Rodrigue:Where is Jake Plummer right now? These days. He's doing, I don't know, Arizona. No, he is in Colorado running a mushroom farm. Oh, wow.

34:50Patrick Claybon:Congratulations to Jake Plummer.

34:52Jourdan Rodrigue:Also trying to ease people's pain.

34:54Patrick Claybon:I want to shout out our research department. There have been 92 quarterbacks, 26 wide receivers, 11 punters, seven running backs, three tight ends, one defensive back, and one kicker who have attempted a pass since the last time Jared Stidham did.

35:09absolutely outrageous um justice for the preseason wait put his recruiting stats up again all right we're gonna take a break and uh we'll come back we're gonna talk to tom curran a little bit about these patriots uh back in a minute for adults with crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Trimphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Trimphia, proper training is required.

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37:59terms and more at applecard.com. Back on NFL Daily and welcoming in a man who has covered the Patriots for a long, long time. And a man who has impacted my career in a very positive manner. Tom Curran over at Comcast NBC in Boston. He's got the Patriots Talk podcast. It's rising the charts. Business is booming in New England. And yes, Tom, you showed me around my first Super Bowl. I ever went to the first Patriots Giants Super Bowl for an outfit called NBC Sports dot com, which no longer exists. What's up, everybody? That was that was the way you started every show. What's up, everybody? Thanks for clicking.

38:52I'm Tom Curran. And you actually introduced me to the term honking, which I've stolen from you and is still a big part of my lexicon. So for all that you do, Tom, I applaud you. What has it been like covering Mike Vrabel coming back as a player? I mean, as a coach, after after covering him as a player all those days ago. You know, it's interesting. It's interesting because you cover him as a player and you're more not in a pure situation. You need him when you need him. And he and I had a good relationship then. There was an awful lot of ball busting that went on back then. Every question posed, he always would say, nah.

39:41So there were times you'd go to his locker and you'd get questions answered. And there were times you'd go to his locker and just, you know, grab ass around. But now covering him as a coach, he is still hardwired to whatever you're asking him. It's kind of, well. So it's a different relationship. But he's been an unbelievable asset. And I think it really starts with him. When you look at these teams that start, and I'm looking at the great turnarounds this week, the 81 Niners, the 2001 Patriots, the I believe it was the Colts in in 98 they went 13 and 3 it's another team in there too that I'm forgetting which I shouldn't be forgetting because it's one of the great ones oh the Rams 99 a lot of them had to do with a coach quarterback combo and in the instances that it did that coach whether it be Dick Vermeule or Bill Belichick or Bill Walsh really carried the message and the imprint in those first years now they had unbelievable quarterbacks, Warner and Manning and Montana and Brady.

40:48Those guys later are elevated, but early on, it is the coach, the coach, the coach, and the culture he builds.

40:55Patrick Claybon:And a part of building the culture in the team is, at least from my point of view, in trying to figure out how they, to explain how all of this happened, Tom, is being able to assign the credit of who is taking part in making what decisions and how those decisions get made and I wonder in the transition from the era where you were in week five six and seven and it was difficult for you folks in Foxborough or us to hear nationally to determine who was calling defensive plays for the Patriots uh to to an area where the coach is so much more willing to be open about certain aspects but it's still kind of difficult to figure out where the the the wolf portion of the roster construction where the Vrabel portion of roster construction, is it easier nowadays or, or harder to figure out where that decision-making is made in terms of facilitating this roster that's been able to be a part of this turnaround?

41:54Yeah, it's harder. I mean, because you know, when, when Elliot Wolf was retained and I wasn't necessarily that he would be because he was part of some absolutely disastrous, horrendous decisions, really, since he rose to the level of being a collaborator with Bill. Now, Bill usually got everything dropped at his feet, but in 2021, the Patriots had a good draft. They got Mac Jones and Christian Barmore, and then they got Christian Gonzalez. But there was just a litany of first and second round picks that didn't work out. And then after Bill left, the last year's draft was horrible. The free agent class was nothing to write home about.

42:36This year had been, with the additional rank out and Mike and Elliott Wolf, more or less saying, look, I'm here to serve Mike. I'm the general manager, but what he wants is what I'll provide. He's provided them with an incredible, one of the all-time great, in terms of contributions, free agent classes. You look at four-fifths of the offensive line. So to answer your question, I don't know who pulled the trigger on. Morgan Moses and Garrett Bradbury and ultimately Jared Wilson, who was responsible for those things. Mike's not doing all the scouting on Jared Wilson, a lot on Will Campbell, I would think.

43:09Who decided Mack Hollins? It's been a collaboration. Mack Hollins was with Josh McDaniels. Carlton Davis was with Terrell Williams, the defensive coordinator who's been laid low by illness throughout the season. But all of these little links help to bring people in. So it's really been a collaboration. And I think that Mike bringing in a staff that included Doug Marone on the offensive line as a former head coach, really close with Vrabel, who, you know, meanwhile, having Josh McDaniels, the offensive coordinator, giving him the latitude to run the offense. I mean, when you really come out to it, it's unfortunate that McDaniels has those two failed coaching stints because he could arguably be the greatest offensive coordinator in the history of the league.

43:56He certainly has the greatest resume when you look at the number of games that he's coached in, the prolific nature of the offense, and the way he's changed it. So there's a lot of credit to dice up, but I think Vrabel should get the lion's share here in 2025. We talked, you know, you talk about McDaniels. And so I do want to ask because he brought Jarrett Stidham with him to Vegas. He traded for Jarrett Stidham. We talked at length about Stidham earlier, just our view of him. But you are a rare person that watched Jarrett Stidham practice in training camp for what, three seasons? And got a better feel of him.

44:33Obviously didn't play a lot for the Patriots. Like, what did you think of Stidham back then? Like, how are you taking that forward? I know it's been a minute, but what was he like? What did you think of him back then? No, it's. He's got a weapon. I mean, he can really, really throw. And that was what was said about him when he was coming out of college is if you put everybody in shorts and T-shirts and just said, throw the football, Jarrett did him jumps off the page. His arm talent is next level. So you have an opportunity when you are a backup quarterback or a team facing a backup quarterback.

45:07You might get somebody who is a stand-in and you know he can't play. And we've seen him over the years. I don't need to besmirch the names of all the backups we've seen who just had no shot. You might get a backup who's like a Jacoby Preset or a Josh Dobbs. I would say that Jarrett Stidham is the least preferable option of a backup quarterback that you would want to deal with. Because he can get hot. And that's what he would do during training camp practices. He'd sit there and go, oh, crap, nice throw. That's another nice throw. And then it would go pick, pick, ridiculous throw, pick. And you're like, okay.

45:45So that was really in 2020 when he had the opportunity to beat out Cam Newton. The Patriots decided with Hoyer, Stidham, and Newton on their roster, it was just Hoyer and Stidham after Brady. And then at the end of June, Bill said, you know what? Cam Newton's still sitting there. He's a former MVP. Should we bring him in? Brought him in. And Stidham missed some time during that training camp early on with a hip slash knee situation. And Cam just took the job. Just flat took it. Which, you know, I thought that Stidham really just, I thought it was going to be more competitive. It was not. And then soon after he was gone.

46:27But the arm talent, I was talking to Mike Iwenu who played with Stidham during that period of time. He said, you know, he's got moxie. and that's what you don't want to deal with. An offensive line that Milt Williams said in the locker room just a few minutes ago is the best offensive line they will see. A head coach in Sean Payton who understands how to get a quarterback ready for a game, and then a guy who has a lot of talent. So it's not a – I still understand why the Patriots are favored, and they ought to be because it's a backup quarterback, but it is not going to be – I don't think Jarrett Stidham is going to be confused by the moment.

47:04Yeah, I think he's dangerous. And I made the case for that earlier. I am curious. You know, I am a regular listener to the Patriots Talk podcast. You and the senator do a great job. There's a lot of talk about dinks. That Vrabel's gotten rid of the dinks on the roster, which is another Tom Curran colloquialism that I like. But the one bone I have to pick for you, Tom, is you kind of made your name back in the day by planting your flag on Mount Tom Brady before anyone else. You were writing in the paper, this guy needs to be the guy. It's not going to be Bledsoe. Bledsoe, you called him a hood ornament.

47:41That his contract was a hood ornament. And this is at a time before anyone was making this case early on. And I think it helped your career out. It must have helped your relationship with Tom Brady out for a while. Now we get to the Drake May era and it feels like you were you were a little slow to to warm up to the fact that this guy could be a capital D like, dude, what what what about him this year? And just in his development has kind of taken you by surprise. well you know the patriots were so bad in 2023 i could not watch the ineptitude on the offensive line anymore i was sick of looking at it you can't even begin to start a team i thought without having the ability to protect a quarterback so my thought was look you got the opportunity here at number three you can trade down you can get yourself a tackle you can get yourself a J.J.

48:41McCarthy, a Bo Nix, a Michael Penix. There's quarterbacks there. But if you're going to try and walk out with a straight face and put a project quarterback, which May in many people's minds was kind of, the talent was unpleasmed, but the fundamentals, the ability to improve those fundamentals, his accuracy, those were all issues at North Carolina. So I said, why don't you kill two birds with one stone? Trade down. Take a J.J. McCarthy, take a tackle. What May has done, though, and it isn't just this year, what May did, Alex Van Pelt came in last April, or May, and started working with May and stripped him back down to zero in terms of how he wanted him to play the position, how he wanted him to throw.

49:23May was vastly different by the end of training camp in 2024. He looked robotic during minicamp. By the time he came back, he was really smooth and really accurate. So I was slow in terms of, okay, well, his fundamentals just clicked like that. Now, how will his decision-making be? Because toward the end of 2024, when he was in there, there were occasions when he would get a little bit too wild with the ball in terms of situations. and he would have picks at the beginning of the season, excuse me, during training camp, he was doing that a little bit too. He went for a long-term with no picks and then they had an in-stadium scrimmage and he threw picks at the beginning and picks at the end and then they had a preseason game and he had a strip sack, embarrassing-looking thing that was no reason for it.

50:12And then at the beginning of this year, same thing. Week one against Oakland, he has a pick coming out of halftime when they had the lead. They lose that game. They have a game against Pittsburgh. They have five turnovers, may get strip sack, make some bad decisions. So I'm like, okay, well, this is going to take some time, but he's clearly an improving player. How he has flipped guys from that guy to this guy is one of the most remarkable arcs of improvement I've ever seen. Brady didn't improve like that. I mean, Brady was really smart, took good care of the ball. He didn't have all these other abilities that May has to tap into.

50:51So Brady was just incredibly accurate, incredibly organized, incredibly competitive. May has so many skills and he harnessed them and fixed things so quickly. It's really, it's remarkable. So yeah, I thought it was going to take a lot longer. I didn't think he was going to be an outright stiff. Thought he would be an upper tier quarterback, a top 10 quarterback. but now by this time next year excuse by august of next year we're going to be or this year we're going to be talking about well is drake may the best quarterback in football and one of and that's the conversation with that yeah no no yeah i think i think you're right on i mean the next couple weeks uh hopefully for the patriots three weeks uh we'll we'll have

51:35Patrick Claybon:something to say about that but yeah yeah that's definitely the conversation for us to have but you know on the pod tom you're giving drake an f in ball security and we saw we saw them all come out uh and we just saw the for the folks watching on youtube a full couple of minute highlight package of drake may there are only four plays in that highlight package where the ball wasn't an immediate risk uh but also there's all of these i'm only counting four because two of them were against the jets and to get highlights against the 2045 jets we're just not going to count at this point tom i'm sure you're on the same page uh with that but to get those highlights you also get the ball being put in risk and i wonder at what point are you comfortable trading uh those big plays especially in the playoffs for for the quarterback who you know to to his credit is able to make those plays but he doesn't have that spatial awareness and nobody does out eight billion people on the planet that tom brady did in knowing when to be able to take those shots when the pressure's coming.

52:33Patrick Claybon:Drake Mays out there trying to get buckets. How much do you think Josh McDaniels has to pull him back from trying to acquire those buckets? I think it's time score game situation. Are you behind? Do you need a play? Is it first down or is it third down? These first down mistakes that quarterbacks sometimes make, it's mind-numbing. You don't need to try and stand there and hunt a big play. And if you look at the mistakes or not the mistakes, I mean, May was strip sack last week. Anybody would have lost the ball when they had their arm pulled as he did by Will Anderson. It's the fact that he looks like he's throwing a freaking javelin.

53:17It's clear. He's thinking he's got more time than he does. He's going against one of the best pass rushers in the league. You might not have the opportunity to javelin the ball. So he's going to get better at that. I think more disturbing was the ball security on the sneak. I mean, it's not the sneak, the scramble where it got punched out on the way down. But these guys are so good. And people here, you know, we have a show that we do every night on NBC Sports Boston. And they're like, well, has Greg may have been figured out the last two weeks by these defenses? I'm just, no, the defenses are better.

53:51They make the guys look bad. He's not been figured out. He's not coming back to earth. it's like going from seeing the jets and the dolphins at the end of the year or the giants. And again, those teams have good players, but seeing those games in which he had 125 passer rating, those are 75 mile an hour BP pitchers. This is 90 with a fleet of pitches hitting on the black. So it's, it's going to be harder for a guy to, to go three for four. Yeah. And it's like, it's why in general, playoff quarterback numbers go down because you're playing, yeah, you're playing better teams and why Patriots fans got too upset about the whole schedule thing.

54:29It wasn't that he's not playing at a high level. Like Matthew Stafford's numbers are all down. Everyone's numbers are down. By the way, the entire league of quarterbacks completion percentage in the playoffs right now is under 60%. It's weather. It's great defenses. They'll have to go through a gauntlet. You're about to go talk to that man, Drake may. So we got to let you go do your actual job, Tom Curran. But look, I was just getting itchy. I was getting itchy. I was going to say, you know, back in the day, I could count on seeing you for a full week at the Super Bowl almost every every other year or so.

55:01So, you know, for my own self-interest, I hope to see you in San Francisco in a couple of weeks. You will see me in San Francisco. It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me on today, guys. All right. See you, Tom. That was great. Tom Curran. And yes, he would always I just like took took little words from Tom. I just like the way that he speaks. But he was always talking about, you know, people are honking too much at me, and that's where honking comes from.

55:27Patrick Claybon:And that's the beautiful thing about language. We take what we can from people. We appreciate and respect, and we apply it. And it goes on. It goes forth. It changes and grows, and we love it. I tried to make Chowderhead more of a thing. That was like another Tom one. That kind of was left in Massachusetts, I guess. It seems to be New York, right? It does, but just like, you know, if someone's an idiot. He's my great. Chowda. He's a chowda head. All right, let's take a break. We're going to be back on the other side. We got a whole conference to preview. And some, if they were being disrespectful, could even call this kind of the real Super Bowl.

56:07Oh. Rams, Seahawks. Winner, our favorites for the championship. That's a safe statement. Disrespect.

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59:43Patrick Claybon:no you're into star trek no i i i contain multitudes you know i'm glad you're with me you were rocking with us back then so i understand let's try to bring it back around yeah um the los angeles rams are a very good football team i i don't know if we are comparing any of these to the second rendition of the galactic rebellion against the empire but we do have a chance to see the third rendition of this game two points separating these teams from two solid games one a rock fight one a score fest Sean McVay after getting coached up by Jordan Rodriguez on the road at the Seattle Seahawks who are a two and a half point favorite over under is 46 and a half it's Kevin it's Tom it's Aaron it's the other Tom on the call does he take what you provided Jordan and use that to power his way back to another Super Bowl.

1:00:35Jourdan Rodrigue:Run the ball, Sean. Also, this is my Super Bowl. This is our Super Bowl. This is the Super Bowl. The Super Bowl is going to be great, but this is the two best teams in football going at it right now. And I am so stoked for this. This is a Rams team that has looked really outside of its personality, especially through the playoffs, had issues where there doesn't need to be any issues in terms of play flow and the way the game is called. And, you know, Sean McVay has been very open about that. There's been a lot of really interesting moves and counter moves. Defenses have thrown a lot at Matthew Stafford, and it has looked every bit of it.

1:01:18Jourdan Rodrigue:And on the other side, the Seahawks made such a statement of strength over, yes, a decimated 49ers team and are rolling with, I would say, probably the highest level of confidence possible into this matchup. Yeah, that fourth quarter changed so much. And if I wanted to give the Rams like the largest grace possible, it's almost been like they haven't been that team. You said the two best teams in the league. Like that's talking about resume and the team that we've seen all season. And when we look at the roster and the numbers, like I agree with all that. I've said that these are far and away the best two teams.

1:01:58since that 10 minute stretch started, basically with Sam Darnold getting picked, picked off going in for a touchdown with under 10 minutes to go down by 16 points. Like that game is over, over at that point since that moment forward, the Rams haven't been that good. They've just been, they've been okay. They've been good enough to win a couple close playoff games, but they haven't been excellent offensively, certainly. and they've been resourceful, but they've been playing, I think, down to their competition and lucky, frankly, to get past Carolina and Chicago. Now, when I'm talking about extending grace, it's almost like they had to just get through all that just to get back to where they were at that moment to correct everything and where I actually think that they might feel comfortable.

1:02:51I think this is the game they wanted, Patrick. For whatever that's worth, I know they know it's like an extremely difficult challenge, but it's one that they're familiar with and that they've gone against twice. They put up a lot of yardage, obviously, on Seattle. And I think they welcome this. And for some reason, I do believe in this ridiculous psychological trick that I just played that like now we're going to see the real Rams. Will that be enough? I don't know.

1:03:15Patrick Claybon:Yeah, no, I think I think we've been seeing the real Rams the whole time. resourceful enough to get two road playoff wins over a team that had previously beat them. And one of the hottest teams in the NFL with Caleb Williams, occasionally playing out of his mind to say, oh yeah, that's, that's it. That's the guy. And this, this team, the secondary that I was highly critical of made the plays necessary to make them not look like the team and the guy in those circumstances were. Yeah. I think the, the high variance version of the Rams we've got late this season are the Rams. And I think that's fine.

1:03:46Patrick Claybon:I think they're perfectly capable of beating the Seattle Seahawks in terms of the comeback and the late aspects of that game. I don't know that this version, and I know Sam, he was 12 of 17, I believe, against the 49ers in a home playoff win where he played through a lot. He didn't have to do much. And I think that this Rams team can force more out of him, much in the way that they force more out of Chicago and Carolina. And I know we don't think as highly of, I think, I think more highly of the bears offense than I do with the Seahawks, especially with Sam playing this way and having his body being the condition it is.

1:04:24Patrick Claybon:And so, yeah, I, I think I, I lean Rams in this matchup. Let's let's focus on, on Darnold and the Seahawks offense first, then like that matchup, because I do think like Stiddy had to lead that preview. I do think that's the number one question is can Darnold avoid the big mistake, avoid catastrophe? Because when you say these two teams were separated by two points in those two games, it's really fascinating that it was that close when they were minus six.

1:04:56Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah. In turnovers. How are you minus six in turnovers? And you're right there with the other best team in the NFL and three touchdowns in those games. So that's, you know, they would have been about 25 points apart, come directly off Sam Darnold turnovers. One was nearly a pick six. The other two were extremely short fields that the Rams cash in. So if they just take care of the ball, they kind of have looked like the better team. And so how do you think Darnold will look, Jordan? And what do you think kind of the Rams are going to do? Because I think if he plays a B plus game, they're heavy favorites.

1:05:32Yeah, they're sealing both heavy favorites. dramatic. I can already hear JB long, like texting me about it. Sorry, JB.

1:05:40Jourdan Rodrigue:I can't wait for his call by the way, too. That'll be good. Um, it's interesting because the thing that Chris Shula like butters his defensive bread on just so happens to be the thing that truly does give Sam Darnold legitimate problems. And it's okay to say it like it's facts, right? It's not even necessarily peer pressure. It's not, it's not necessarily real pressure. It's not necessarily even sacks. it's the fact that Chris Shula does not blitz yet is leading in, in pressure rate or throws affected by pressure because of the simulated pressure looks that he shows. And what that means is he is sending his defensive backs and or linebackers up to the line of scrimmage to make it look like they are going to rush the quarterback, but then dropping them more often than not way more often than not into coverage and clouding up the back end.

1:06:32Jourdan Rodrigue:that the quarterback who is preparing for a pressure to deal with pressure and to mitigate that all of a sudden sees the answers that he's already decided he's going to use to solve said pressure covered up by defenders. And when we talk about clouding up the defensive backfield, that's what we mean. They want to keep as many secondary and interior middle field defenders on the field as possible. And you absolutely want to do that against the Seahawks offense. That is when it's at its best, the most explosive attack in the league, not just from the past where it started out the season with JSN, but now and Charbonnet, you know, being hurt hurts them, but also in the run, the way that they've come along with the run game.

1:07:12Yeah, like he's owned this matchup, Chris Shula.

1:07:17Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah. I mean, Darnold has, you know, I did go back to watch that week 16 game because it just it just felt like it's so recent. This is a trilogy where they've played almost exactly like once a month for three months. And so this is the third one. And there's so much in common between those two matchups. He never really got out of it. He made a couple of great throws to help them win the game, but he always makes a couple great throws. Even within that, like come back, like he, he threw exactly one pass from scrimmage. There was a couple of two point conversions, which are really important, obviously.

1:07:53And he executed them beautifully. He threw one pass to get them from 30 to 14 to 30 all. And then they had two three and outs at the end of the fourth quarter. So he never really got over it. And last week, even against the 49ers, he was two of five for 15 yards against pressure. There was one play which got me thinking of what you were just talking about. And this is why Darnold is good and why he's risky, where you could just tell he does not see the underneath defender dropping back. And he throws it kind of blind and he gets it there. and it was a completion last week. But he's kind of got to go take those chances.

1:08:27He has the most turnovers versus pressure of any quarterback in the league. It was him and Joe Flacco. And despite Flacco not having nearly the amount of attempts as Darnold, but Darnold also didn't have nearly the amount of attempts as a lot of other quarterbacks, so they just weren't under pressure that much. He actually hasn't thrown that many passes under pressure and they haven't had to count on him volume-wise. So can they stay in a game where it's not about his instincts? Cause that's the number one thing I worry about is his instincts. When to leave the pocket, when not to, when to throw the ball, like where to go.

1:09:02We know he can throw it. We know he'll hit some nice throws as long as he's healthy. Uh, it's everything else that I think in this matchup, you got to worry about.

1:09:09Patrick Claybon:It's the health. Yeah. Well, that too. Like if you, if you turn the clock back and go back, he looked pretty good last week. I thought he did.

1:09:16Jourdan Rodrigue:I'll say I thought of you. Cause Kyle made a tour to reference. Oh yeah. I said, well, yeah, it takes a minute for the shot to kick in and you're always on shot watch.

1:09:24Patrick Claybon:Yeah. And late in the season, you know, in Sam's defense, a lot of guys are going in the tent and coming out feeling significantly better. You know, a few, you know, as Kyle points out probably 30 to 45 minutes later, but it go back earlier in the season where Sam is making these timing throws. He's stepping up, climbing the pocket. He's doing all of these things. And, and pain is obviously like, you know, we, we had this conversation offline, where people are like, pain is weakness, leaving the body, and all these other things, and you've got to be tough. It's detrimental to your performance to be hurting.

1:09:59Patrick Claybon:And I think we've seen that late in terms of what Kubiak and company are asking him to do, and not necessarily to play, but I just hate that the total view of Sam Darnold may be impacted by what he's able to do here, where, you know, the game keeps going. Stafford's going to throw for 600 yards in Week 16. and like are they going to be able to keep up if that score fest does break out if if the rams offense is on schedule and everything is operating and the finger's not an issue and the weather is also not an issue for the for the aging quarterback as we all do we're all older than we were yesterday but uh matthew stafford probably feeling a little more uh than some of the 24 25 year olds he's playing against at this point um will a not 100 sam be able to do all the things that it takes to score 28, 35 points.

1:10:51And can they just run? And Charbonnet is a big loss. I don't think it's going to kill them because they have Kenneth Walker as long as he stays healthy. The matchup that the Seahawks have clearly lost in these games, which really stood out on tape, were the interior line of the Seahawks getting bodied by Kobe Turner and Puna Ford. And it was Jake Sundell specifically and Anthony Bradford specifically, when I went back to watch it this week, they're getting beat over and over. And Sundell also got beat a couple times pretty quickly last week. Like CJ West had a quick pressure sack on Darnold. And so that's a matchup where, man, if the Rams can win the interior offensive line and just keep applying pressure, the on-off splits, next-gen stats had some great numbers of Kobe Turner.

1:11:46It's crazy. He's amazing. It's crazy.

1:11:49Jourdan Rodrigue:All vibes. They're like by far the best defense in the league and the best pressure rate with Kobe Turner off the field. And they're not good with any off the field. And I think in this matchup like that, that's something I'm watching for. Cause that could be a weakness. Sundell is a guy they like a lot. And I think has played well in general this year. But maybe since he's come back from injury, he hasn't quite been the same. One of the things that really brought the Rams defense to life against Chicago was activating Puna Ford a little bit more in the path rush. Um, once they realized that the bears entire running, uh, strategy was developing into run around Puna Ford and Caleb Williams is going to drop back to pass.

1:12:25Jourdan Rodrigue:You mitigate some of those stretch runs in the zone runs that the bears were using. And obviously Puna is not going to be, you know, defending the run in space like that, but then they opened them up in the pass rush. He was getting into the backfield on multiple occasions, almost untouched. That's something that you have to think Seattle's coaching staff is looking at on tape because they weren't necessarily doing that through the course of the season. You saw more attention paid to Kobe. And in that regard, they started activating Puna specifically in those pass rush opportunities a little bit more.

1:12:57I'm curious, too, if they can get Rashid Jaheed involved in the offense because he's obviously been a great pickup for what they've gotten, special teams, just last week alone. but he has, do you want to guess how many yards he has over the last four games as a receiver, Patrick, it's a wild number. 36, 10, 10. He's not part of the offense. Cooper cup is coming off one of his best games of the year. Oh,

1:13:24Jourdan Rodrigue:you know, he's hungry for this one too. I try extra hard. He he's, you know, he's playing more routes certainly than Shahid. He is the two. And look, they, he was the first read on a number of plays last week and he, and he made those plays. It was really one of his best games of the season. So that's good. Because I do think of the Rams weakness, as we've talked about, are the outside corners. Shahid, in theory, and Cup, in theory, like, are there to help expose that. But are the Seahawks the team to expose it? You know, like, do we need a little Shahid in our life? I feel like for them to, like, have the depth of options.

1:13:59They are not a team that relies on depth of options. They rely on their unreal and short yardage situations. and they're unreal obviously getting into Smith and Jigba. Barner's a big factor, but they could really use Shahid and Kup especially to have a big game.

1:14:13Patrick Claybon:I think to facilitate the usage of Rashid Shahid, you're going to need to not have a Kobe Turner problem. You're going to need to have Sam be able to deliver the ball deep downfield where the Rashid Shahid 50-plus yard touchdown stat only gets more crazy after the playoffs where it's can you utilize, Like, because after the deadline, you get Darnold worn down a little bit and you don't get. They got to try. Maximum Darnold to truly take advantage of what Rashid she. Here's a stat. I won't make it a quiz, but it amazed me when I looked. Sam Darnold's only attempted four throws over 20 yards in the last three games combined.

1:14:52Hasn't hit any. So this was the best deep team in the league for about three months. Them and the Patriots. Patriots have kept it going and the Seahawks have stopped even trying to do it. So I think that's, that's a big one.

1:15:05Jourdan Rodrigue:Well, what's helped is their run game activating the way that it has. And then I wonder if the injury factors in a little bit to that recently anyway. But the funny thing about that to me is like, um, we're just hoping you forgot about this. You know, they played them three times and they're, they're sitting there like, Oh no, we lost this piece of our playbook. We're super hoping you don't remember like, but, But in all seriousness, where they still are very, very, Rams are still very, very susceptible is versus play action passing, in part because their corners are a little bit of a liability.

1:15:38Jourdan Rodrigue:Now, that said, yes, Kobe Turner, or excuse me, Kobe Durant had two interceptions on Caleb. Cam Curl had the clutch, most clutch interception of his life, essentially, against Caleb Williams as well. But on the perimeter, they do not have size in terms of length. And that could be a real problem because even, you know, they're like, even their small receivers are still big in Seattle and their tight ends are a mismatch against all of these secondary defenders. I'm convinced AJ Barner is actually like seven foot four, 460 pounds. There's just something about him that seems extremely imposing. And Quentin Lake is back, which in theory should help.

1:16:19Jourdan Rodrigue:He's sick this week, but Sean McVay says he'll be ready to go this weekend. In theory, that should help you defend defend and cloud up the middle of the field a little bit more against really, really good tight ends, but they still struggle defending tight ends. So even if your secondary perimeter receivers are not a factor here, really watch if, if, you know, you're, you're looking ahead to this game, what the Rams have done and do against tight ends, because it has been real feast or famine against those players. So like the, the first run for the Rams in the McVay era that ended in a championship, not his first run to the Super Bowl, but the 2021 run, the defense is really stepping up and getting them through these games.

1:17:02I think they've stayed at a pretty consistent level and they are maybe even peaking for the playoffs. They're playing well. The offense is where it feels like the team is different, but they found a way to get through these games. Sean McVay spoke on Wednesday about the adversity that they've overcome. I think what's been reflected in is that we've been strengthened through our scars. I mean, I think you look at it and you guys have asked me about it. There was a handful of games that we had or a few games that we had where you maintain a lead and then they come back and then you're not able to kind of make the plays that are necessary to be able to finish it.

1:17:36Well, that hasn't been the narrative in each of our first two playoff games. And so don't know exactly how this game is going to unfold. But I do think our guys have become more resilient. I think there's a resolve. I think there's a mental toughness and a fortitude that's necessary. And I've been really proud of those guys because it is about how you finish. She can't win the game until the fourth quarter and last week's instance until overtime. And so, you know, I love this group. I think they've used these scars the right way.

1:18:00Jourdan Rodrigue:I know we laugh about like the play calling and then the I know you guys referenced the fourth down decision making that I wrote about a lot a couple of years ago and all of that. But. Sean, I think, has gotten really good as a play caller in pulling himself out of a funk in game. I remember huge leads that they squandered taking their foot off the gas and they certainly have taken their foot off the gas at times all this season. But you watch like that last scoring drive that they they needed to have and the way that they drove the ball down the field to set them up for the game winning field goal and overtime as well and the balance that they finally finally started using.

1:18:40Jourdan Rodrigue:there was a time where I think he was too proud to like actually understand his hand in some of the funks that they had gotten into. And I think he's gotten a lot more. He's talking about resilience here. I think they reflect him. I think he's gotten a lot more resilient. The interesting thing about this to me is that Mike McDonald is never not like he's a robot. Like he he's, you would not know if he's in a funk because his defense does not, does not get into a funk. They keep coming at you and almost like gain strength, like a wave crashing onto the shore. He never dips. He never pauses. And this is something where I think this is a fantastic matchup because it is two play callers on either side of the ball who are perfect foils of each other.

1:19:27Jourdan Rodrigue:They're also kind of the same person and they've gone through different things in their coaching career and they are kind of showing you like who they are with how they call these games. I think his comments, yes, were about his team, but I also think they're a little bit about himself too. Yeah. And like, look, I think he will, he will love, not that he wouldn't have loved Kim Curl forever, regardless for everything Kim Curl's done for him, including a big turnover against the Seahawks earlier this season too. But that helped him get out of that funk because that game could have ended differently.

1:19:59And my lasting image would have been him completely frozen and stunned after that Caleb Williams touchdown. Just that image makes me think, oh, man, it would have been interesting if they went for two, just because I don't know if the coach would have if they would have called any play. They just would have been frozen and be like, oh, just score. We're too stunned right now. We all have regrets. And I love how he self scouted himself immediately after the game of what play calls were good, what wasn't the regrets that he had. And one regret I had driving home on Sunday night after what I think was a great show overall is we didn't really give the Devante Adams catch and throw in overtime from Matthew Stafford the love that it deserved.

1:20:40So I'm all about fixing our mistakes. Let's actually listen. I haven't heard this yet. Let's listen to our friend J.B. Long call that play, because I do think there's a way to push this forward into this week and have it apply for what they're going to need out of Matthew Stafford and Devante. Stafford to the air again, back to pass, climbs the pocket, zips one, and it is caught at the left sideline. Depontae made the catch. Yes, he did. Bears thought he was out of bounds, but Adams brings it in across midfield. Oh, only his second grab of the game after clearing the concussion protocol. Will it withstand further review?

1:21:17so that that's JB long, uh, last week on KSPN and apologies to who put this out. Cause it's so true. Matthew Stafford makes so many throws that look, you know, great on TV copy. But then when you see them the next day on the all 22 are just like, Oh, that was impossible. Like you did not have a, a total appreciation of that was a 100 out of 100 throw. Jordan wrote beautifully about it on the athletic. Everyone should, should check that out. And when I think about this week, Like, obviously, Devontae Adams is really important. I think it can't be all Puka like it was in week 16. But I do think it might just come down to, like, you know, Stafford's just got to...

1:21:58His best has to be better than their coverage. Like, he's just going to have to break a good plan with a throw that there is no defense for because that's what Matthew Stafford can do when he's at his best. So, like, we need... I think he's going to have to have more than one of, like, those types of special throws and moments to get past this.

1:22:17Patrick Claybon:And I think that's what gets you in the funk as a play caller is the fact that you have a quarterback that can do that on any particular pass play that you call where he's going to make a no-look throw, where he's going to not be able to square his shoulders to the sideline and throw a seeing eyeball to Devontae Adams who comes back into the game after he takes a massive shot where he's sitting upright on the field for like 30 seconds. We didn't even know if Devontae was going to come back into that game where you have two players like that who can do that. Yeah. You know what? Why not? Why not completely abandon the run game on the road in the driving snow against a defense that's forced more turnovers than any other defense in football?

1:22:56Patrick Claybon:Like, I think that capacity is something, yeah, when it doesn't go right, that's how the Rams can lose. But to highlight, because, you know, as much as I love Coach McVay, as well as the 2005 Papa Roach song, Scars, it makes me think of a physical ailment. uh that's a mistake like to when you don't feel great about the plays yeah you can call them scars because you yeah there's evidence of them but it's something that's easily fixed uh not not like a quarterback having a hand issue or any sort of accumulation of hits on him where you know Matthew Stafford's not going to run all over this defense well nobody is um but being able to make those throws it is it's why he's so special and why the criticism where if Aaron Donald doesn't get through and burrow's able to get that ball to jamar chase and they don't win the super bowl somehow oh matthew staffer's not good because he can't win the big game we don't have to worry about that anymore we can just appreciate how good he is at what he does and that plays a great i want you to sing scars uh if you were before the show just do it right now no no okay uh

1:24:02Jourdan Rodrigue:famously greg does not know that song um yeah there's there's a big gap there's a gap musical knowledge in 2004 and 2005 i would i would say yeah my post-college the early aughts you know spotify wasn't on you know you didn't have a phone that spotify's on yeah it was like it was a dark time you're taking a while to get the your napster to load a time wire but you had

1:24:25Patrick Claybon:to work hard the entire lighter flick mixtape era of lil wayne yeah that was where you were that was there i missed papa roost i think you're okay i think it's okay okay so the thing about matthew

1:24:37Jourdan Rodrigue:Stafford. I love that you brought that point up, Patrick, because that's exactly what it is. Matthew Stafford is the type of quarterback, and this is why they went out and got him all those years ago. And he's addicted to the postseason now. And this is the quarterback who makes you believe that you can fly on the surface of the sun and wax on your wings will not melt. Like he makes you believe in the impossible. That throw against a six foot four with double the wingspan and then some cornerback, Nashawn Wright, had to go through the eye of a needle to stay inbounds against that corner to that receiver, who then had to drag his feet and both ankles on the frozen ground in order to actually make this catch.

1:25:21Jourdan Rodrigue:It's impossible. It's impossible. It's improbable. And because he keeps doing it, you think it's going to happen again. It can happen again. And that's where you walk this incredibly thin line against a defense as monstrously ferocious, as fundamentally sound, as aggressive, as physical, as long as they are similar. It's a field full and a Sean Wright. So it's like long, long players and in the pass rush and in the coverage. And it's why you walk that really impossible line of saying, we can, we can replicate these, the impossible. We can ask our quarterback to replicate the impossible. And when it works, this is a team that will win the Super Bowl.

1:25:59Jourdan Rodrigue:And if it doesn't work, Matthew Stafford, who got really lucky and didn't turn the ball over when he could have a couple of times in that game and had a couple of drops by receivers. If he's at his best, this team cannot be stopped. Right. And and he just hasn't been at his best for a while. Now, again, like we mentioned this in the interview with Tom, like most of the quarterbacks numbers are down. But it is interesting that the two MVP candidates, for instance, I would say they're they're most difficult. Worst two game stretches of the season are these last two, the playoff games like Stafford's numbers while pressured in the playoffs are the worst in the league, like even worse than CJ's numbers were in terms of his pass rate.

1:26:40That's been the case all year, but even his completion percentage and how it's been going for about a month now, if you go back to the Falcons game, hasn't been at his level. And you think about like, OK, I think I think that was a near death experience and somehow they're going to play better. And I just think you're going to get a better experience. Will we get it, though, like how we saw for most of the season and in that week 16 game with all the 13 personnel, 61 percent of three tight ends on the field? last time these two teams played, including all four touchdowns by the Rams. And then the last two weeks in the playoffs, they've used it almost at the lowest rate that they have all season.

1:27:21Jourdan Rodrigue:We lost the page of our playbook. Right. To mix the facts. You think, you think they'll go back to it? Like it's going to be, it's going to be all the way back and cranked up this week. I love it. And you know what, Greg, they do say about scars is that they remind us that the past is real. So the edge I give the Seahawks in spades here is on special teams, especially with Rashid Shahid being able to return punts and kicks the way that he has been. The Rams special teams unit came through in the clutch. What's the opposite of a near-death experience, I guess? Just staying alive and not being frightened.

1:27:59Jourdan Rodrigue:They've been great. It's been great. Mavis is a hero. But that's the thing. We'll talk to JJ. I don't trust the Rams special teams. as, you know, I would say as far as I could throw him, but I'm not making any sort of snide joke or anything like that. And look, Seattle's got to get a better pass rush on Stafford. He had 49 attempts in that game just a month ago. No sacks, only four quarterback hits, not a high pressure rate. Their secret sauce all season is they blitz in the bottom seven or eight of the league, and yet their pressure rates in the top five of the league. I mean, so you have all these talented guys in the back end and you always have a lot of them and they're big and they're great tacklers like it's really hard to beat that and you've seen that like I can't tell you how many different plays in that game and then the 49ers game last week there were Byron Murphy doesn't get the credit on the play but his pressure directly impacts everyone around him where someone else gets the pressure or the hit or the quarterback has to move because of him and that defensive tackle duo is just lights out, but they, they gotta be better.

1:29:05Like not just in the run game where they've been money. They're the best short yardage defense. I was looking up like in the NFL by a lot, like it is really hard to run on them on second and two, third and two, fourth and two, like all that sort of stuff. Like that could be a hinge point, but they, they need their, if we're going to talk about them as one of the best defense we've seen in a long time, they need to get more pressure on Stafford, not give up 400 yards, you know, through the air to them.

1:29:28Patrick Claybon:Yeah. And they have to get to them quick. because I think the volume of 13 personnel where you are able to get... Everybody in the pass rush can be accounted for. And Matthew Stafford is able to handle a lot of that. And I think your strength in being one of those good third and fourth, especially in the red zone areas, kind of gets nerfed when Devontae Adams is available and the goal line fade to the chagrin of the anti-goal line fade community when two Hall of Famers are involved in the process is still very effective.

1:30:01Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah, I think, too, one of my theories is that he, obviously you want Devontae and Puka both on the field as much as possible, but one of my theories about why some of that went away, that 13 went away, is because defenses were playing them differently. Dennis Allen threw the kitchen sink of blitz packages against Matthew Stafford. Matthew, Coleman Shelton, the center, both talked to me about it post-game, how confusing it was for them, how they were just toying with them, in Coleman Shelton's words. We saw a lot of pre-snap, struggles to communicate, skill players not picking up pressure the way that they would have liked them to.

1:30:32Jourdan Rodrigue:And I don't know that they trust all of those tight ends to do that. Tyler Higbee and Colby Parkinson have experience. I don't know that they trust all those tight ends. Should you need them in those types of scenarios when you want to run 13? Not sure you actually trust them against some of the pressure that you're seeing. So you can get them out of it if you throw stuff like that at them. That raises an interesting question. One that I could try to answer, but I wouldn't be as good at it as our guest who's coming up. Let's take a break. And then I will ask said question to JJ Jansen, the longtime long snapper of the Panthers who is on the field against each of these teams this year.

1:31:11Jourdan Rodrigue:Friend of the show.

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1:34:31Jourdan Rodrigue:It's the end. Our next guest was playing in these very playoffs against one of these very teams just a few weeks ago. Let's welcome in friend of the show, friend of Jordan Rodriguez. It's J.J. Jansen, long snapper of the Carolina Panthers, coming off a noteworthy birthday. So happy belated birthday and congratulations that Mike Gundy officially recognizes you as a man. Moving forward. That's right. That's right. You've been a man to us all along, JJ. Thank you. I said before the break, something popped in me. I had a question. I decided I'll just ask you. I'm going to dive into the deep end here.

1:35:15One thing I noticed last week in that Bears-Rams matchup, and you guys obviously just went against the Rams, was they did confuse Stafford and their protection plans more than once, where he seemed to like not, either it was the skill position players that were off or he had the count wrong. Like Dennis Allen had a really good day, I think against McVay and Stafford. And I guess I'm curious, like why you think that would have happened to such a veteran quarterback in that scenario? And then specifically for this matchup, like what kind of problems you think that Mike McDonald, I know they're not a heavy blitz team, but when they've done it, they've been really effective at doing it and what kind of things that they could throw at Stafford to maybe pick up on that weakness from a week ago.

1:36:03Yeah, I think one of the advantages that Seattle has, and I think you saw it a little bit last week with the Rams game versus Chicago, is in order to confuse veteran quarterbacks, which happens so infrequently, you really have to have a lot of people in your coverage, right? The ability for Seattle to get a ton of pressure with just their front four, bring only five, allows you to play with six or seven guys in the secondary change-up coverages, you know, whether it's cover two and inverting it or playing man, you can just complicate things a lot. And we're watching it right now. Like they're only rushing Purdy with four.

1:36:39Seattle's doing this. And it just complicates what someone can see. You know, one of the things that we even had in our game, we played Stafford twice, is veteran quarterbacks can figure stuff out over the course of the game. So you have to keep them guessing. but even the best ones eventually kind of figure out your plan because there's only so much in a game plan so the advantage for seattle is they can get to the pastor with their front four and hopefully confuse stafford from their perspective the weather's not going to be nearly as bad in seattle as it was last week in chicago that's an advantage because sometimes it's how do i feel gripping the ball what's happening in front of me you're thinking about how cold you are as much as no one wants to talk about it.

1:37:21So I think the passing game can always be affected a little bit in cold weather football. Uh, it's hard to keep confusing veteran quarterbacks like Stafford over and over again, but if you're going to do it, you have to do it with a really unbelievable pass rush. And again, Seattle gets as much pressure on anybody, uh, or on quarterbacks as any other team in the league. And they don't blitz that much. So that's the recipe to really get after a quarterback.

1:37:47Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah. With Stafford, one of the things that was so interesting about what Dennis Allen decided to do, JJ, to me was, was Stafford is really good against the Blitz, but I think they capitalized on some of the noise too, that was coming from the fans and not being able to hear some of the checks and the protection changes that Stafford made. And I think some of the skill guys let him down a little bit too, in terms of being where they were supposed to be dictated by what he was seeing with the, with the protection. And he admitted he didn't pick up things as well as he could have either. But when you have a team that can drop everybody and make everything super cloudy the way the Seahawks can, cause they do get pressure with their front, their base front.

1:38:27Like, how do you get, have you seen it often this year?

1:38:31Jourdan Rodrigue:And how would you, how do you get a quarterback like Stafford? How do you bait him into making a throw he shouldn't make essentially. Yeah. I think you have, you have to keep things complicated. Where's the rush coming from? Who's, you know, like for instance, if you're running cover two, there's five underneath players that there was on the kind of the flip side, I don't mean to like get ahead, but like one of the interceptions Sam Darnold had on the flip when they played in Seattle versus the Rams, he thinks it's man coverage. All of a sudden it falls into zone, like changing the early presentation.

1:39:05And I do think on the road, it gets a little bit more complicated because the crowd noise, which you know, it's going to, you know, Seattle's the loudest place in the league. So much of the stuff really needs to be called in the huddle because audibling and checking things is so complicated, hand signals, all of those things. But then as the volume goes up and Stafford starts using hand signals, well, now that's one more thing for the defense to pick up on and disguise if they know what a certain hand signal, what route, you know, if he, if he claps his knuckles together and that is a hitch route, let's say, well, all of a sudden you start showing that time and time again, DBs can start sitting on things.

1:39:44So volume always helps the defense because it allows for nonverbal communication, which coaches and players can see. So that's, that's an added piece. It's not just how it's just not the struggle to communicate, but it's also all the other nonverbal ways that have to come into how you present a plan to the defense. So J.J., you know, he's a friend of the show. We're so comfortable with J.J. as a guest that we're actually going to throw it to sound while J.J.'s on because it's germane to this conversation. It's Mike McDonald talking about the home atmosphere in Seattle. What an atmosphere.

1:40:20Jourdan Rodrigue:Holy smokes. The 12s, you know, just our organization putting on a great setting. And it's just, you know, you do actually try to take some time and look around and just understand how incredibly blessed we are and with the best fans in the world. And it definitely made an impact, definitely to start the game. And so just want to appreciate this. That was awesome. It's freaking.

1:40:42Patrick Claybon:Mike Mack, in his feelings about a great fan base, and I'm sure he will take JJ, you know, three seconds to take a look around and then get hyper-focused back on confusing Matt Stafford and whatever he can do in this game. Because I think Stafford, well-acquainted with playing in that particular venue, did it recently. And all of this conversation about being hard to play a team this volume of times, when you come back into this particular matchup, is it really more, is it McVay and Mike Mack, or is it these guys executing at a high level that's going to determine this game? Yeah, that's a great question.

1:41:21I think it starts with the offensive play caller getting the proper types of plays and sequencing into early parts of the game so that you can begin to acquire information. The fourth quarter, I've always thought, is about the quarterbacks. Can we get into the right plays, make the right checks, find the one-on-ones? But early in the game, we've talked about it in the past, like the first 15, what's going on right there? Well, it's the beginning of the understanding one coach to the other of how things are being played so that you know what to call later in the game. You know, like they were talking about volume there and in the crowd noise.

1:41:59Like if I'm the Rams this week, I'm deferring the opening kickoff because I don't want the ball when the volume is at whatever the decibel level is in Seattle. I'd rather get the ball to start the second half. I want to be able to get as much information without the first drive is always going to be hard. But you know what the first half or the second half drive always starts? Really quiet because everyone's still getting pretzels and hot dogs and stuff. So it's always quieter. So if I'm the Rams, I don't want the ball to start the game. I want it in the second half. But I also want to be able to use the first half to begin to gain some information.

1:42:32We saw when they played in week 16. Early in the game, they went forward a few times. They were not overly proficient in the first half. effective. They scored, but it weren't dynamic. Second half is when you started seeing all the big crossing routes from Puka Nakua, the big shots, and Stafford started figuring out the defense that Seattle was presenting on that particular night. They obviously scored 37. It wasn't like Seattle stopped them really at all. I mean, if anything, they kind of stopped themselves. So until the fourth quarter, but again, that's the chess match. So, you know, I think there's a lot of layers.

1:43:08The coaches are certainly going to be dueling. At the end of the day, it's going to be Stafford, Nakua, Devontae Adams going up against that secondary. Can they stop Lawrence? Can they stop anybody on the inside? That's going to be the players are still going to determine kind of the final outcome of the game, but it's a great chess match.

1:43:28Jourdan Rodrigue:You know what, JJ? I love what you said about information gathering because against the Bears, the Rams did it more in their opening script, their first 15. They changed personnels more than I've seen them do in a long time. They were throwing in their, I call them, I'm not the, I didn't come up with this, the coaching staff did, but the half personnels. So they were throwing like their fullback receiver hybrids in to run like 11 and a half personnel or to show a 12 look, but it's really 11 concepts. And they're, they're they rotated, they subbed and subbed and subbed and subbed over more than I've seen.

1:44:01Jourdan Rodrigue:And, and they were trying to figure out what Dennis Allen was going to do to him essentially. and but against Seattle Seattle doesn't really sub they don't need to nope and they they just show you the same damn thing every single snap and so I'm kind of like how much information can you get if you are the Rams and and and follow-up question to that it's like how good is Seattle at um not showing its hand and and how much of an advantage is that for their defense Well, it reminds me of back in 13, 14 to 15 with the Panthers when we were going up against the Legion of Boom, right? It's a different style of defense.

1:44:40But the similarities of you've got these really talented pass rushers, these really talented guys in the secondary, safeties, corners that do everything well. and they don't need a lot of different personnel packages so that they can be more, you know, Nick Emanwari coming down, he can play linebacker, he can play nickel, he can play safety, he can do anything you want. So you're not getting as much information. It's harder to find the individual matchups. And I think it was kind of interesting. In the first matchup, we had seen this sort of proliferation of 13 personnel and then McVay went to 11 and just played in 11.

1:45:19Well, round two, because Devontae Adams was out, he just stayed in 13 even after all the information gathering. So at the end of the day, you're looking for one or two matchups. I don't think enough is made of how impressive Puka Nakua is in the run game. Like, we talk about it. You hear people mention it. But even one of the touchdowns in week 16, Emanwari is looking right at him because he thinks he's going to get blocked. And all of a sudden, Ferguson gets slipped to the corner. So it's a really cool matchup in that both teams have guys that can play big and little simultaneously. So you're probably going to see good on good really the whole game.

1:46:00That's awesome. And I saw a stat from our next gen stats of how Puka has the most yardage of any wide receiver this season by a lot when matched up on non-cornerbacks. So safeties and linebackers. And that specific game was the most by far any wide out has had in any game all season because McVay helped to dictate those matchups. And Puka obviously is going to win them over and over. So we know about Puka. You face these teams. You face the Rams twice in pretty short order. I want you to tell me someone that stands out to you on the Rams, maybe a little unsung, like a football player's football player.

1:46:41that has the respect that you see that has your respect certainly, but maybe isn't a huge star. Well, he's kind of a star. Braden Fisk, I had to go one-on-one against in special teams nonstop. It was me versus him. And so that was sort of a, that was like bear wrestling and I didn't do very good at it. But, you know, I went up. That's a great answer. I love it. He was sort of pass rushing me on punt for me personally. I went over to Austin Corbett, who was a longtime Ram and kind of knew all that. I said, hey, what's the pass rush plan from Fisk? Because he's swim moving me. He's ripping through.

1:47:22Like, I don't usually have to deal with that. And Corbett kind of laughed at me. He's like, well, he's going to try hard. He's going to use all the swim moves, and you're just going to have to hang on for dear life. I said, fair enough. I was like, this is what – and he kind of laughed at me. He goes, this is what we have to deal with on the O-line.

1:47:36Jourdan Rodrigue:So, um, turn it into a lesson for you, JJ. That's what these guys have to deal with. 18 years. I'm still learning stuff, but, um, you know, Nate Landman hit me right in the side of the head as far as anybody has ever hit me. Wow. So, so in Carolina, we do a lot of kind of funky alternative formations on punts. So what teams basically started doing was just playing their defense. So these guys on defense don't know the intricacies of special teams, but they're there because they can mess some stuff up in a big hurry. And so as I'm bear wrestling Fisk, Nate Landman comes out of the post and hits me dead in the side of the head.

1:48:18And I was like, I didn't sign up for this, guys. It's fourth down. I'm 40. But you're occupying two good rounds. Yeah.

1:48:29Patrick Claybon:It took two good rounds to handle you, JJ. So credit to you. Yeah, trust me. I didn't make the play. So they did more than did their job.

1:48:39Jourdan Rodrigue:What about like who sticks out to you on tape when you I know you've watched a lot of Seattle this year. You and Greg Olson have been fascinated by the Seattle Seahawks team and kind of all the different ways they're doing things on offense, but also the way they're sort of neutralizing personnel on defense, too. But who sticks out to you that could really be an edge in this game? You and I have talked about special teams and Rashid Shahid being a factor potentially here. But I wonder, like in your study, like who really sticks out as a possible like swing point for this game that maybe we aren't talking about?

1:49:12Well, I would say Rashid Shahid. Like we've played against him in New Orleans for the last four years. When he got traded, I was thrilled because we still had the Saints on the schedule two more times. Then I found out he was traded at Seahawks. I was like, oh, we're going to have to play him. because what they're really doing is they're utilizing him not only in the return game, and we could talk about that for a long, long period of time, but they're using him in the pass game, right? So Jackson Smith and Jigba got all the highlights, all the notoriety, and rightfully so. But what makes a team like Seattle the way they want to play so explosive is the middle part of the field gets exposed because you're simultaneously playing the run.

1:49:55And if you have a guy like Shahid that can take the top off run by you, well, there naturally becomes these voids in the middle of the field. And that's where Jackson Smith and Jigba can light it up, right? It's where, you know, the Rams, that's where Puka Nakua does all of his damage. So as you're seeing it right here, all of a sudden you're getting your best player running through the middle of the field with a lot of freedom. But that really works when you have your run game with like Kenneth Walker going and someone like Shahid running past everybody. You have to honor that speed. And certainly when Shahid was in New Orleans with Clint Kubiak last year before Derek Carr got hurt, they were hitting everybody on bombs and throwing the ball over the head.

1:50:35They did it to us in week one in 2024. So, you know, that was – I thought at the time that was the best trade of the trade deadline, a fourth and a fifth from a team that was rebuilding in New Orleans. They send Shahid to a team that's going to be in the playoffs, and that fits their style. They'll run, play action, and they really want to hurt you on the play action pass. That's the way they're designed. That's the way Kubiak had it in New Orleans, again, before Carr got hurt. You could just see it coming. And, I mean, that's not even talking about Shahid. The thing he does best, which is return kicks.

1:51:11And we saw it last week versus San Francisco. And my old buddy, Eddie Pinera, tried to slide kick him. Didn't work. Shahid's going to run right past everybody. he's the best in the game and so they also have an offensive role for him which makes him a perfect fit there in Seattle

1:51:29Patrick Claybon:JJ I need to ask you this because it's been a long held belief of mine that special teams coaches can get scapegoated and head coaches sometimes rage quit on them you played the Rams in the Chase Blackburn era and then after the Chase Blackburn era you were there Where, you know, with Coach Rivera, when he parted ways with the special teams coordinator, does it do anything other than alter your life as a special teams player? And what are we to take? Was there a difference in the Rams on special teams with and without their special teams coordinator? Yeah, we didn't see a dramatic difference in how they played.

1:52:13Um, certainly there, there was not a huge difference from week 16 to effectively week 19. You can only do so much as a coach, right? You have basically the same players strategically. It looked like they were playing more defensive safe, uh, putting their big eyes on the field in terms of punt return. Uh, so much of special teams also comes down to the specialist. A lot was made obviously of, of Josh Cardy missing a bunch of kicks. Is that the special teams coach? Is that the kicker? Is that just a stroke of bad luck? I think that happens more than we care to admit. Like I've known Chase Blackburn in particular for 14 years.

1:52:51I played with him. He was our personal protector. I played next to him. He's been my coach. He's been in, he's done everything. I think he's one of the best teachers of football that I've ever been around, but the Rams have struggled on special teams and they've really struggled for quite a while in large part because their team is built with a ton of really good football players. And sometimes special teams kind of requires the athletic freaks that don't have natural positions. And the Rams prioritize on their team really good football players. They might not be the most athletic team at every position, but a ton of really smart guys that know their role.

1:53:26And that's how the teams build. And it's also kind of built around don't mess it up. Like you can just tell on tape, get the ball back to Stafford, right? Let our pass rush get after them. That's kind of how they're built, right? And so philosophically, that is always going to be a little bit of a problem. Now, Harrison Mavis, who was here in Carolina last year as an undrafted rookie, he's calmed down a ton of the stuff on the field goal side. I think he's missed one time. He obviously hit the game winner last week. That sort of calms some stuff down. Jake McQuaid, another long snapper, old head, has calmed everything down.

1:54:02And they're playing more conservative. You're not going to see a ball in play this week from the Rams to Shahid. They're just going to hit a touchback on every time. Boring. And it's going to be boring.

1:54:12Jourdan Rodrigue:Scared to compete. Yeah. Not exactly the dynamic kickoff that everyone had in mind. But, again, I think a lot of teams are kicking away from Shahid after last week. But, you know, he has three. I think he has three returns since he got to Seattle. But yeah, that's – Seattle's different. They've built a lot around their special teams. And I think that's also a little bit of the difference between an offensive head coach and a defensive head coach. Defensive head coaches are just naturally a little bit more aggressive on teams. Offensive coaches are going to be a little bit more conservative because most of the big plays are – we're trying to get the ball back.

1:54:48And so you see that across all the teams. I think you're just seeing it a little bit more on display with McVay versus, you know, McDonald. I love the perspective. J.J. Jansen has been in the NFL long enough that his rookie season, his quarterback was Jake DeLome. He was with the Jake DeLome era, Jimmy Clawson era, through the Cam Newton heydays. He was there for the Darnold Baker year. I sort of memory hold that there was a Teddy Bridgewater year, which was very near and dear to my heart. I thought he played better that year. There was a Kyle Allen year. There was a Kyle Allen year. I was there watching you in person in a seven interception game in London with Kyle Allen and Jameis Winston.

1:55:34A lot of good times. Jameis threw touchdowns to everybody, both teams that day. Roll it. It was an exciting day for the fans overseas. I'm going to put you on the spot. Again, we're comfortable. JJ's part of the team here. We're going to end the show with you. But before we do that, I'm going to go around and get everyone's picks because we didn't earlier. And Jordan doesn't like to make picks.

1:55:54Jourdan Rodrigue:I don't. Famously. So I'm going to start with you and not even let you marinate on them. You have to make your picks. Great. You love hurting me, Greg. No. I have to pick the Rams. I picked the Rams all year. Team near and dear to my heart. Okay. And the AFC, too. We skipped the AFC. Oh, I'm picking the Broncos. I pick the Broncos if the Broncos defense scores a touchdown. Well, what is that? I learned from the best. That's not a prediction. I learned from the best. Hedging. Hedging. I learned from the best. I would say that of every team that's playing this weekend. You know, you give me a touchdown off the bat.

1:56:27Jourdan Rodrigue:No, the Broncos defense specifically has to make up for Jared Stidham, your hero, on this entire. Okay, so if the Broncos defense scores a touchdown, I am picking the Broncos. Okay, and if they don't score a touchdown, you're picking the Patriots. Yes, I am. Okay. I'll accept that. That's specific.

1:56:43Patrick Claybon:Yeah, no conditions. Super Bowl rematch, Rams-Patriots. Okay, we're getting a potential Super Bowl rematch almost in any scenario. And then, JJ, how about you? If the Rams offense scores five touchdowns, I'm picking the Rams. Can I do that? That's good because it makes fun of Jordan and that is what I'm looking for. I like the Rams and the Patriots. I think Stidham's actually going to play well, but I think the Patriots are the more complete team. So I got Rams Patriots. I don't feel confident in the Patriots. And yet I'm never going to pick against them in this spot. He's got the fan. And I took the Rams before the playoffs started.

1:57:23My head says Seahawks. And yet I do think that somehow we're going to get the best effort out of the Rams in this game. The effort we really haven't seen since the first three quarters in Seattle. But who knows? These are great, great games. Thank you so much, JJ, for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. We'll release you into the Carolina night to celebrate your birthday. And we'll release our listeners, too. It's been a long one. We appreciate you. It's been a great week of shows, but we're not done yet. We will be back. I'm trying to do the days in my head. Friday morning, you're going to get the picks from myself and Cynthia Freeland.

1:58:02And knowing how this coaching carousel has been going, we might do some coaching news as well. We'll see you then.

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2:00:41Jourdan Rodrigue:This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.