25 Players in 25 Years: Kevin Harlan on Nos. 7-4

25:53Bill Barnwell:So let's actually listen to it. Rodgers is in the shotgun, running back at his side. He gets a high snap. He's in the shotgun. He catches right on. There's a wind drive down the middle. A leaping backpedaling catch at the goal line. Falling into the end zone. Down the middle. Jennings touchdown! A 21-yard throw by quarterback Aaron Rodgers to Jennings. They beat Polamalu right down the middle, just inside the goal line. Green Bay's on top, 20-3. Great call, Kevin. And that play is so great by Rodgers because it points out to me, sometimes the best throw, there's no defense for it. You got an underneath defender.

26:31Bill Barnwell:You got another zone defender on the second level breaking in. And Polamalu is coming up. And it doesn't really matter because it's so perfectly placed with one of the biggest arms in NFL history. He had a great anticipation, too, don't you think, Greg? Like his prime, his anticipate, his anticipatory skills were just so far advanced. And getting everybody around him on that same page was was a constant chore for him. When he brought in young receivers, it took them a while to earn his trust that they would be where he wanted them to be. inside, outside the numbers, I mean, like wherever. And clearly he trusted Jennings on that play, threading the needle with three defenders converging.

27:15I mean, those plays, those are Hall of Fame legendary plays that you just embrace and think, just think of the precision. And then everything else that had to go into that, right? The blocking had to be right. The other receivers had to take as many guys away from the middle of the field as they could. there had to be a telltale as he was dropping back and looking at the route and maybe seeing a guy over here and Palomalo over here and a guy getting trailed over. And that's the thing about that position. But in particular with Rodgers, his mind being so quick, he could pick up things, decipher, process, and then act on it about as fast as any quarterback.

27:57There was no double hitch. And if there was, it was only to throw off the defense, even to buy his guy an extra five yards on a route, stem it or whatever they were going to do. I just think that it would be great to have him. I'm going to stop and put a period on that. I did a two-hour interview with the late Kobe Bryant talking about taking jump shots and positioning himself to be where he wanted to be on the floor and how even if he were an inch off or if his foot wasn't aligned the way he wanted it or if the elbow wasn't here and it wasn't flat here. I mean, like just all these things that went into a simple jump shot for Kobe Bryant, the technique and the attention to detail.

28:43We come up with that phrase again. Rodgers is as close to any NFL player, even though he's in a completely different position in sport, to, I think, embrace those things. I would love someday someone, and I think you're the perfect person to do it, to sit down with Rodgers when his days are done and talk about just what we've talked about, footwork, attention to detail, where he's placing his eyes, the double hits, the fakes, the maneuvering of guys pre-snap, what he saw as he was getting that ball and dropping back and trying to make a decision in two and a half seconds or less. You know, those are the things, his vision, and we talked about that with Ed Reed, but his vision was just unparalleled.

29:22And then you've got the God-given, uncanny, generational talent with his arm. and his ability to do what he does, sidearm, soft, it's like he's throwing darts, and he's even learned now to throw off the wrong foot, which I've watched him do in practice, and I'm just amazed that he can do all the basics and, of course, throw it forward and all those things, but when he's throwing off the wrong foot, backpedaling off of one foot, and it's the wrong foot, and these are things that are just uncanny and things that if you watch the game long enough, you really tend to appreciate and know you're seeing a one of one.

30:02Bill Barnwell:Absolutely. He had such an interesting career, because as you mentioned, he waited for Favre. And I was so impressed how he handled that 2008 season when he takes over, because as you know, that was an absolute circus that summer when they were trying to get rid of Favre, but they weren't sure. And it was all up in the air. And Rodgers came in, and I know they didn't win that much that season, but he came in and he was immediately one of the best quarterbacks in the league and just quieted that all down. He ends his career leading all time in interception percentage. So that's the fewest interceptions per throw.

30:40Bill Barnwell:Leading all time in quarterback rating. Obviously that could change in his days coming up with the Steelers, but that's where he's at right now. Also leads in adjusted yards per attempt. He was on the all 2010 Hall of Fame team. He was the second team for pro football reference for the all 2010s behind Brady. And you mentioned just the physical skills. And that's why I struggle even putting him this low, because that throw that we showed to start the first clip of him running to his left to Jared Cook. I was in the building for that one against the Cowboys. And I really don't think there's another quarterback.

31:17Bill Barnwell:Maybe Mahomes could make it where he's sprinting to the left and he can throw a frozen rope on the line in the perfect place to win the game. Same thing with one of those Hail Marys. He was running to the left, Kevin. Just an incredible physical talent. And I know he had a lot of tough losses in the playoffs. And there were a couple of them where I'm sure the offense would have liked to have some plays back. The 49ers game in the conference championship stands out to me as one of them. But a lot of those games, whether it was the Falcons, where his defense just didn't show up. The Buccaneers game, like a lot was going on in a few of those games.

31:58Bill Barnwell:You look at his playoff record and he has 45 touchdowns and 13 interceptions and some of the greatest performances in the playoffs as well. So to me, that is not a knock to him, but certainly experience his share of heartbreak, I think no bigger than that lead that they had over the Seahawks in the NFC Championship when they had a fourth quarter 12 point lead with just five minutes to go. But again, it's a team sport. And to me, the greatest test is what you do over the course of a regular season. And he did that year after year after year in Green Bay for 15 years. He did. And we talk about Marino, one Super Bowl, Favre, two Super Bowls, one win.

32:38Rogers, one Super Bowl, one win. Sometimes the greats, for whatever reason, can't rack them up like the Bradshaws and the Bradys and Peyton Manning, who made multiple appearances and went with two different teams. It's so incredibly, as we all know, difficult to do. But it should not take away, when the story is written about Rodgers, just what he accomplished. And I began talking about the injury. You know, what he went through as a 39-year-old quarterback when he snapped his Achilles and then came back as a 40-year-old quarterback, and his numbers, considering he was only one year removed from that, at that age with all those miles on his body, I thought it was remarkable.

33:22I personally think this year for Pittsburgh, I think he's going to be terrific. I honestly got that. I think he's going to, and I would say the same thing about Kirk Cousins down in Atlanta, too. I think with that Achilles for a quarterback is so tough. It's a two-year rehab, and for someone that old, maybe even a little longer. I think the best of Rodgers at this stage of his career can still be seen, and the Steelers might be just the team to pull it off. So I'm so curious to watch what he does now. In my mind, nothing will ever take the place of some of the things I saw him do. I've still not even seen a quarterback do a lot of that.

33:58We saw some incredible Hail Marys thrown in there. The cook catch, the tight end making that grab, was just bodies are – they were doing things that should not have been able to have been pulled off. And so I'm with you, man. I'm feeling like, holy smokes, that has to be – of his top 10 throws that he could rattle off if he were joining us right now. That would have to be one of them, right? It wasn't for a score, but it was for a big play in a huge game. And, of course, they went on from there. So I respect him in so many ways. I think a lot of times we're diverted. Our minds and attention are diverted to the outside stuff with him.

34:41As a football player, as a leader, everyone's loved playing with him. He makes the room better. He made the position. He advanced the position. Manning advanced the position. Rodgers advanced. Mahomes is advancing the position. Rodgers is in that kind of conversation. I really believe it.

34:59Bill Barnwell:Yeah, I'm glad you say that because I spent too much of our time on NFL Daily and then back on Around the NFL podcast talking about the off the field stuff. And it's been annoying the last few years. But this show is about thinking about all those moments. and I think of like tough moments. You're saying coming back from an injury. There was a calf injury he had against the Lions. It was 2014. And he comes back in the middle of that game to go win the division. He had a game where he had six touchdowns in a single half. He had an opener against the Bears week one where he hurts his knee. He's knocked out of the game.

35:35Bill Barnwell:He's questionable. He comes out of halftime. They have a 17-point fourth quarter comeback. He won a division, Kevin, on a fourth and eight against the Bears with like 45 seconds left in the season. And he needs a first down to win it. Forget the first down. He ends up throwing for a touchdown. So he had so many great clutch moments. Last thing I'll ask you about with Rodgers, and then we'll take a break. Just what was he like when you met him? You get to talk to these players before the games or the day before the games as part of being on the broadcast cruise. What was he like? Well, I do have a lot of personal connection.

36:15My dad was with the Packers for 37 years. When Ted Thompson, he ran him, was the CEO and president. And when Ted Thompson, then the general manager, pulled my dad aside and said, I need your permission to draft Aaron Rodgers, who's fallen to, what, number 24, I said, I think we're getting the steal of the draft. My dad had to base, you know, not that it was his idea, but the buck had to stop someplace, and they were going to spend a first-round pick and reach, I guess, in some people's opinion, on Aaron Rodgers. And it turned out to be one of the great draft choices in the history of the NFL and certainly for the Packers.

36:53Same situation was true with Brett Favre. My dad had hired Ron Wolfe to be the general manager in Green Bay, and he brought him in just after Thanksgiving because he wanted Ron to be around the team, go in the locker room, travel with the team, watch practice, be in meetings, get a feel for what he was inheriting so that when the offseason came and if they made a change at coach, he could go appropriately knowing what he had to work with and how far he had to go. And the story my dad tells me is that they were going to the final game of the season at old Atlanta County, Fulton County Stadium. And my dad and Ron Wolfe always sat together in the press box.

37:36And Wolfe put down his briefcase and looked at my dad and said, I'm going to go look at their backup quarterback, and if he's as good as I remember him when I saw his pro day, I want to go after him. And my dad, so he gets out the flip card and he's looking, Brett Favre, Brett Favre, you know, who at that time in Atlanta under Jerry Glanville had really had kind of a weird presence, and it was not working out. He goes down there, watches him throw, comes back up. They fly home that night to Green Bay, and he said, that's our quarterback of the future. So they went to the executive committee, which is a seven-man committee, a couple days later, telling them what they were going to do, and the executive committee said, that's the most ridiculous thing we've ever heard.

38:20Why would you trade, our number one pick for a backup at Atlanta who doesn't play and has got a lot of things going on off the field. And my dad said, Ron, could you leave the room a second? He did. He goes, we gave this guy full control of football. If we back out now, we will never hire another quality general manager in the history of this organization. We've got to let him make this move. So he comes back in. They OK the trade. They make it with Atlanta. They get Brett Favre. And the same basic scenario happened with Rogers. And, and it's interesting. And those are back-to-back hall of fame quarterbacks.

38:55Um, so yeah, my dad and Rogers, my dad and Favre had very good relationships. And by virtue of that, whenever I came across their paths, uh, they were incredibly kind, wonderful men. I respect them both and I've really enjoyed, uh, Aaron who is, who has been just terrific for our family. And, and for the few times I've been around and me personally,

39:16Bill Barnwell:That's an incredible story. I'm really glad I asked that. And yes, there's no talking about Aaron Rodgers without talking a little bit about Brett Favre and if the listeners are interested. Yeah, I thought about Favre for this list and he was one of the quarterbacks that got cut off because ultimately those three straight MVPs are not in the last 25 years. But if you just started his career in 2000, he had a number of incredible seasons, including that dynamite one with the Vikings, but he just did not make the cut. Rodgers did. We're going to take a quick break. Two more. We're into the top five here.

39:49Bill Barnwell:The NFL Daily Best 25 Players of the Last 25 Years.

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43:41Bill Barnwell:Let's see our next player. Number five, J.J. Watt. first and 10 Dalton throws it trying to throw it out to the right and it's intercepted J.J. Watt to the house touchdown Houston Texans for the rookie from Wisconsin he's regarded as one of the best defensive players of all time and he's sacked brought down by Watt he's a hill raiser you can't block him no sacks today third and fourth he passed on every third down today here comes Watt here goes Watt I don't think there's anybody that's ever been better at it than he is got it down what you do it all that's the type of guy you're trying to chase jj watt number five on our list yeah i could have put rogers higher what do we just want to have quarterbacks one through four i didn't want to do that when i watched jj watt in that stretch from 2012 through 2014 i decided this is the best player i have ever seen at what he does i have never seen a defensive player play at a higher level than J.J.

44:48Bill Barnwell:Watt in those seasons. He won three defensive players of the year. The only other defensive players to do that, Aaron Donald and Lawrence Taylor. Five first team all pros, obviously had some injuries in the middle of his career, but did bounce back and had one more truly standout season in 2018. He authored what I thought was the best defensive season of all time in 2014, at least that I've ever seen. When they did not give him the MVP in 2014, I said they should not be eligible, be eligible for MVPs furthermore, because if he did not win for that season, no one was ever going to win Aaron Rodgers in a great year, won that year.

45:28Bill Barnwell:Kevin, what are your first memories thinking about J.J. Watt and covering his career? Well, Jeff, he was runner up for the MVP. I had forgotten that. In addition to all of his defensive player of the year awards and all pro and pro bowl selections and complete dominations. I think he had a couple of 20 sack seasons, which had never been done before, but over 20 sacks for a couple of years. And he was so dominant that when you talk to opposing offensive coordinators, they would say it always begins with J.J. Watt. And how are we going to stop J.J. Watt? Everything tilted protection-wise of that offense to knowing where he was lined up and who was going to be on him and where that help was going to be.

46:23You would never, ever put him one-on-one with one of your tackles. You'd always have to have a chipper, running back, or a tight end, or someone to come over there and double him because he was just such a wrecking ball. And because of that, he affected offenses in a way that they couldn't operate, maybe with their full portfolio of plays, just because they knew the time wasn't going to be there to throw. You had to maybe speed up your delivery. You had to do more running, go the other direction. You couldn't go to your favorite side of the line. You had to go to the opposite side because Watt was there.

46:58His ball skills were terrific, and that probably goes back to when he was playing receiver, tight end in high school. And then, if I'm not mistaken, his first year at Central Michigan, he was a tight end. But then they switched him when he walked on at Wisconsin to defensive linemen. and that was his God-given place to be, right? That's where he was destined to go and become the player that he became. But there are a few players. Taylor was one of them, and you mentioned him, and Aaron Donald, who I got to believe is somewhere coming up. Spoiler. But J.J. Watt, the difference between what he could do to a game and what Lawrence Taylor or Aaron Donald, the difference with those three probably minuscule in how they would affect the game i mean he he did his first five years six years in the league were just like wow and then then his body failed him a little bit came back finished with arizona but but had a variety of injury and i know that he played through some significant injuries he would gut it out and the team respected him for it.

48:12All the guys we talked to with the Texans before doing one of our games for CBS would always talk about what an inspiration he was, not just in getting his body ready to play on Sunday, which in itself for all these players is a week-long process of treatment and rest and all the things that they go to just to get themselves on the field once a week, but his film study and his practice habits and and the way he led on that team he he he checked every box there was no doubt uh one of the one of the greatest linemen I've ever seen and could wreck a game on any given play and usually it was every series his fingerprints were on uh that series being a three and out or a turnover every time it was like you just watched him oh you'd almost watch him more than the quarterback and that's handsome because we're taught when we're broadcasting these games you watch the ball you watch the quarterback your eyes would always drift to see him coming and would almost like all right here comes what there goes the drop back as opposed to there he goes dropping back to throw no you would almost mention what before you'd even talk about what an offensive uh you know mechanism going on was was was and it was it was just it was so weird to switch your brain around to think that way as opposed to offense first but with him you always thought defense first because he was always affecting a play that's it right there i'm so glad

49:42Bill Barnwell:you said that so we we started the around the nfl podcast a long time ago and me and chris wessling this this studio is named for my late great friend we would say that exact thing about jj watt and i I had never, you know, I'm learning this game, but I don't know as much about it as the coaches and the players and how to watch it and everything. And Watt was transformative for me to understand how much fun it could be to watch a defensive player. He was the guy every single snap that I would keep my eyes on. And it was crazy because you never understood how he got to the 11th pick of the draft.

50:22Bill Barnwell:This is a 6 '5", 295-pound guy who is so much quicker off the ball than anyone on the inside or the out. When he was one-on-one on a guard, it was curtains. That was really just his rookie season, and then it was over. The next year, he was already the best player in the league. But when he was outside, he was stronger than those guys. He was faster than those guys. He was so versatile. He was box office. And you mentioned the hand skills, Kevin. And all those passes defensed in his career, you know, from jumping up and blocking the ball, 70 passes defense. And what makes me think of how he transformed that franchise, the very first playoff game in the history of the Houston Texans franchise, a rookie, J.J.

51:04Bill Barnwell:Watt, who only had five and a half sacks that year, was a very good rookie, but was not defensive rookie of the year. He was kind of a slow starter. He jumped up. He had a pick six in that game along with the sack. And that was kind of his coming out moment. the following week in the divisional round. He had two and a half sacks. He actually had a career high in tackles in that game as a rookie. And from then on, you realize this guy is playing the game in just a way that I personally have never seen before and haven't seen since. No, I think you've captured it right there. That story alone tells you exactly where he belongs and his effect on this game, where he stands with the greats that have ever played that position.

51:43And you also noticed being around the Texans, if you had them on a Sunday, as we often did, that that his his getting ready, his preparation, his dealing with the media, his dealing with the fans like he got it right. He understood the game. He understood how to prepare the game and how to ready himself for the game. He understood how to be a winner, how to affect the game and what he would have to do on any given day. and I'm sure there were challenges that he just savored and felt like, like this is, I want to go against the best. I need to be challenged. He never thought it was easy, clearly, but I know there were times where he said, I could have a pretty big day, but there were other times he probably said, I got my work cut out for me and thank goodness I do.

52:29These are the kinds of things that keep me sharp. But if you watched him before a game, hour and a half or so, he'd be out there and cut off t-shirt, walking around, have a football, going through the mental side of his preparation. And my guess is, and I'm thinking that if I looked in my notes, I could probably find the quote. He would say he would play out the game in his head. What a first and 10, what a second and five, what a third and long, third and short, what part of the field the offense was in, what he would need to do to help the other part of the defense succeed in stopping that play.

53:04Like, I think he thought the game through about as well as anybody at that position. Now, listen, it's a lot of God-given skill and strength and technique and arm movement. And then you talk about the ball skills. If you deflect or it was in coverage, drop back, whatever it would be. He was every place. And that's what made him so difficult. It was like having a great – and he could have played linebacker. There's no doubt in my mind. He was picking up with the ball skills that he could have played a stand-up linebacker, but they put him in a position where he was destined to go. And you mentioned the five sacks or whatever it was, his rookie.

53:41He was a slow starter in college, too. Changed positions, built up his resume at the University of Wisconsin, became the best lineman out of that conference, and then we see what he's done in the NFL. It's guys like him, guys like Reed, others you've covered, Greg, in this litany of wonderful names in recent NFL history. These guys are wired differently. They're just, they see the game, they think the game, they prepare for the game, they play the game just so differently than just your average player. And listen, it takes everything to get to that level. To be an NFL player has got to be about as hard because the competition and the numbers and like it's so intense.

54:24And but guys like him, they were just wired differently. And it shows with their performance and and what they put on film and certainly what they put on on that bus going into camp.

54:37Bill Barnwell:Yeah, he he was a player where the numbers are just outrageous. I mentioned the slow ish start as a rookie. Well, his second year, he's the defensive player of the year. He has 20 and a half sacks, leads the league, has 39 tackles for loss, which has not been topped since. For those years, and even if you just use his whole career, he led the entire league in sacks, in tackles for loss. And it's not by a little, it's by a lot. And yeah, his body betrayed him after those first five years. But this exercise to me was about who were the true greats when they were at their best. And what, five or six completely sensational years aren't enough for you?

55:19Bill Barnwell:It's enough for me to put them here. So before we say goodbye to J.J. Watt, I wanted to mention Wade Phillips. After his first year, he knew, like he already said, this guy is going to have a bust in Canton someday. That was on a guy that had only five and a half sacks his rookie year. And Wade Phillips is a seer. He played in a 3-4 defense. We're actually going to listen to one more call of J.J. Watt from you, Kevin. First and ten. Here comes what? J.J. Watt. Who cares if you lose your hat? Salute him and record a sack. That's number 15 all-time record for the Houston Texans. He's something else.

55:53Bill Barnwell:Yeah, that was during that 20 and a half season. So he tacked on five more sacks that year. I liked his helmet off and came off. He had that play where he was bloody. He always had a little flair for the dramatic. Let's move on to our next player on the list. Number four. Aaron Donald. Rams creepy. They rush forward. Throw to throw for it. He's hit. He's hit. He's sacked. He throws it away. He flings it away on fourth down. Aaron Donald got there. And you can build that man's statue out SoFi Stadium right now. I mean, Aaron Donald's as good as there is probably ever played in the National Football League at D-line.

56:34He's an incredible player. Explosive, quick. powerful. It's amazing the production he has even when people are double teaming him and triple teaming him. And guess who? Number 99 again. World champions. The last team standing. We're the best in the world. That's what it's about, man. Look at this trophy right here. Look at it. This is for you guys. This is for the city of LA. We did it at home.

57:02Bill Barnwell:That's Aaron Donald. After winning the Super Bowl. I was somewhere there that day with my daughter Ellis, who's a huge Rams fan, watching that and watching them have a great time on stage. I struggled. I admit, Kevin, deciding who would be the top defensive player on this list. Initially, I had J.J. Watt there because I thought his absolute peak. I just I didn't think defense could be played at a higher level. But then I talked to more and more people and I thought it is hard to argue with Aaron Donald's career. Eight first team All-Pros. No one at defensive tackle, by the way, during his career had more than three.

57:42Bill Barnwell:Three defensive players of the year. Was in the top five four more times for defensive players of the year. And if we're picking between two players at their very heights, you could argue Watt. You could argue Donald. You could do it either way. And I didn't want to just be about longevity and yet he did it every single year of his career so that consistency of just complete excellence put him over the top uh he is the top defensive player did i get it right kevin i love donald and i i would be getting shoulder to shoulder with you in that selection i you know what certainly played a position but with a little bit more space a little bit more maneuverability think what donald did by the way in college at pit i think he won the lombardi the nagurski the outland like he won like every major award for a lineman and then carried that success to the nfl could still be playing right now i there's he's only been gone a year but i i he he could have played he got out while he was on top and he wanted he won a championship which is great the crowning glory to maybe the best interior lineman we've ever seen.

58:54But that's kind of my point, the interior line. Think of how congested it is in there, how hard it is to maneuver. And really, I think right now the badge is we'll never appreciate an interior lineman because he gets kind of swallowed up with guards and centers and just the traffic in the middle of the field. You never really see them, except for Donald. He's the one guy that would always break three. He would cause havoc. He could take a double team. He could take on a triple team, and he would always find a way to blow up the play. And we know that quarterbacks love to move up in the pocket.

59:40Donald took that away. He would press that pocket so hard, those you know, couple yards, yard and a half, whatever a quarterback would need to move up and not get pinched on the side by the J.J. Watts of the world, that's where you found, right, your refuge. You'd move up a little bit and then not with Donald. He made that whole thing just, you could not go there. And to operate and put up the kind of numbers he did and affect the game as he did at that position and to have him as your number one rated defensive player, I mean, that's just unheard of. I mean, that is, I get the linebacker, I get the safety, I get the defensive end, I get all those positions.

1:00:23You're talking about a guy in the middle who's disrupting getting doubled every single play. Maybe the only guy, except for an elite receiver that's going to draw coverage in the secondary by multiple guys, maybe the only guy on the defense that is constantly facing at least two guys that are going to try to block him and stop him every single snap.

1:00:43Bill Barnwell:So we have stats to back that up in the next gen stats era, and they can keep track of this. He was indeed double teamed at a higher percentage, more than any player in the NFL. And despite that, in his 10 seasons, he had more sacks than anyone by 10 sacks. And so that's including all the great edge rushers. He still had more sacks than them by 10, despite playing on the inside. But then the numbers get crazy. He has more quarterback hits than anyone in the NFL, despite all those double teams by 51. He has more quarterback pressures than anyone in those 10 years by 124 and the most tackles for loss by anyone in those 10 years by 40.

1:01:25Bill Barnwell:So I started thinking about it, Kevin, and this is a guy who people would always say, well, the stats, you know, he's even better than the stats show. Well, the stats say he's the greatest player maybe of all time at that position. So if anything, I feel bad having him four and you got to call his crowning moment. That also helps put him over the top. Let's actually listen to Kevin Harlan's call of Aaron Donald calling game in the Super Bowl. Burrow will look at it. Three wide from the 49 of the Rams. Fourth and one. Shotgun snap low. Picks it up. Left tackle block. Here comes Donald. And he spins Burrow around.

1:02:06He then tried to throw it away. the Rams celebrating on the near side on downs it goes to LA only one timeout for the Bengals and that made to it that made to it and the defense stands tough for LA

1:02:26Bill Barnwell:that gives me goosebumps uh what do you think listening to that Kevin I love that play and that was Donald right when you needed the biggest play from your defense of the afternoon he pressured the the terrific joe burrow and and he spun him around and the ball flies out and he's trying to make a miraculous throw or or do whatever to you know maybe hoping that a penalty has been called with a hold down field or something and uh and that was it that closed the door and donald realized it and pointed to his finger i'm gonna get my ring um i can't think of a better guy to be the number one defensive player on your list great quite frankly i i just When you watched him, you just knew you were watching something that is not common, once in a lifetime, generational, and I think he's placed perfectly.

1:03:18I always – I root for players that are at that stage of their career who have had such great individual decoration but have not gotten the team's success. When he got that, it just felt like it was Stafford. I mean, it felt right. Here are guys that have put their imprint on this league, and they were able to get that championship. Feel bad for the guys that didn't. Marino never got it, and we can go down the list. But for Donald, being the best defensive player that I've ever seen, and I love Lawrence Taylor, and I called some of his games, not in his prime, but later on. He was great, and there's no denying he's one of the top two, three defensive players ever.

1:04:01We probably actually, in this conversation, talked about the guys that I would put exactly. Reed did what he did on the back end. Watt was terrific. But Donald, Aaron Donald, he was special. And the fact that the multiple all-pro selections, which is really the defining measure of these guys. Pro Bowls are great. All-star, I get all that. But that all-pro designation puts you in a category. And when he'd rack up as many as he did, it's a testament to his career and how we've only he's again, one of one.

1:04:39Bill Barnwell:He made first team all pro, Kevin, every first team. Every single year of his career, except for two. Now, here are the other two. He was a rookie who won defensive rookie of the year. And it was in St. Louis. That team stunk. It was a sad season. And I remember talking to people that year, the way he finished that season among ball knowers, there was a lot of support for him that he should have actually been first team all pro that year. He was that good already. So that's one of the years. The other year was his ninth year in the league where he got hurt at the end of the year, missed five games.

1:05:16Bill Barnwell:Before that, he essentially didn't miss a single game for injury, missed a couple late in another season. But he was a guy who you look at the playoff runs, he's playing 85, 95 percent snaps. So he reminds me if I had to come up with a comp for him just in terms of career, Jim Brown might be the guy I think of because every single season of Jim Brown's career, he was essentially the best at what he did and retired the best to ever do it. I think you can say that about Aaron Donald and that Super Bowl run. That wasn't the only game winning pressure he had. He had one against Jimmy Garoppolo, too.

1:05:52Bill Barnwell:So he came through in the absolute biggest moments. I, I don't know. Now I'm now I'm every one of these guys. I feel bad. I don't even rank them a little bit higher, but he, he is one of one, as you mentioned. And Greg, as you've, you've covered the league for so long, um, you know, just sitting here talking with you and all the games you've seen practices, players, you've interviewed stories you've written and things you've talked about. Um, it, it, it, it gives you a moment of pause, doesn't it? When you, when you talk about the breath, we're talking about, you know, 2000 to now and all the great players.

1:06:24Listen, if we went pre that, that's a whole other conversation with the greatest of that position. But I think both of us could honestly say, if you took the greatest single player in the history of pro football at every position, quarterback, receiver, running back, and in the middle of the line, defensive tackle, however you want to, whatever you want to call him, Donald would be on that group of 22. He would be one of the 11 greatest of all time defensive players. Not saying that Watt or Reed or Rodgers or anybody else we've talked about couldn't be under consideration. I feel pretty confident.

1:07:05I would think you would too. And you just rattled off the incredible 10-year running Super Bowl champion. To me, he is one of the best 22 players ever to play this game. And that's a lot of players and a lot of great players that have played on defense.

1:07:21Bill Barnwell:Yeah. And very unique, too. You know, it's one of the reasons I think he fell in the draft to 13th, because you mentioned the honors he had in college. But shorter for a defensive lineman. Yes. Said he played at 260 pounds later in his career. And yet, you know, we know he was the quickest guy out there. He was just he was just too quick for everyone to handle. But despite being only, you know, 265 to 280 pounds, he was the strongest guy out there. Like he wasn't as physically imposing until you saw him with a shirt off. And then it was just outrageous. Well, I was first on NFL broadcast in 1981.

1:07:59Play by play began in 85. He is the best interior defensive lineman I've ever seen. And not that my word carries anything, but I've seen a lot of guys, a lot of games voted. And I just off the top of my head, I mean, we could probably have a whole nother show on pre 2000 players. I don't know that anybody affected a game, played it at a higher level and was as revered and decorated in every aspect than Aaron Donald. I just I have the highest regard. I've never, I've talked to him one time on a Zoom when we had the Rams back in the day. I've never met him in person, but my respect for him is boundless.

1:08:43And some guys are just the greatest 22, the top 22 players of all time. Aaron Donald's name is on that list. And I have a feeling your number one guy is probably on that list too as quarterback. But they mentioned Jim Brown. Jim Brown may be the greatest. I never called any of his games, but in a short – Gale Sayers, for that five or six years that he was healthy before he blew the knee, he may have been in that Brown conversation. But it's just how lucky have we been to see players like that and in the four players here we've talked about in this segment with the quarterback Rodgers and J.J. Watt and Ed Reed and finishing up with Aaron Donald.

1:09:29Bill Barnwell:Appreciate you, Kevin Harlan. And you're like, who am I to be ranking these guys? You've seen more of these games than anyone. You are the guest. My son was most excited when I told him that you're coming on the show today. My son Walker was like, what? Do you have Kevin Harlan on? I was like, yeah, it's going to be pretty cool. And your enthusiasm, your love for the game really comes through, too, talking about these players, but also in the game. So I thank you for our listeners, for my son, too, of just helping our enjoyment of watching it. Really appreciate you, Kevin. Well, thank you, Greg.

1:09:59Big honor to be on with you. A privilege to be a part of this great listing of the most wonderful players here in this quarter century.

1:10:07Bill Barnwell:Yes, and it's not over yet. Our next episode will be the series finale. We are ranking the top three players. Yes, it's been 25 players in 25 years, only three to go. And really looking forward to that finale. For Kevin Harlan, I'm Greg Rosenthal. We'll see you next time.

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