Power Players: Patriots director of pro personnel A.J. Highsmith

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2:44Jourdan Rodrigue:Hi, everybody. This is Jordan Rodriguez. Regan. I'm excited to share another episode of NFL Daily's Power Players with you all today. As many of you know, I love football. One of my favorite things about the NFL is learning about how teams are built, how decision makers from coaches to executives to scouts to players think, and the process itself of the sport. How people do football is the coolest, and I know you think so too. So in Power Players, we're going to talk to football people and learn from them and pull back the curtain of the sport for you just a little further. We'll sprinkle these into your feed from time to time.

3:17Jourdan Rodrigue:A little surprise extra treat for our dedicated listeners. Today, I am interviewing AJ Heismith, who is the pro personnel director of the New England Patriots. And yes, Greg is very jealous that he was not a part of this. AJ is the son of Alonzo Heismith, a legendary longtime executive. And AJ talks with us today about how watching his dad scout and help build teams really sparked his interest in the craft, even though AJ himself was a player, including at the University of Miami. AJ has worked in scouting and personnel for years, including with the San Francisco 49ers, the Titans, the Bills, and now the Patriots.

3:54Jourdan Rodrigue:He's part of a core group there that has reset New England's organizational identity. And I really wanted to know how he sees all the pieces of that building coming together to build. AJ is a scout at heart, a driven personnel pro who I like on this show because, like us, he's always asking why. So let's get into it. Here's AJ Highsmith. We are so thrilled to welcome AJ Highsmith, Patriots Director of Pro Personnel to the show today. AJ, I know I'm coming to you from the Chris Wessling Podcast Studio here at NFL Network. You're coming to me from a brand new facility, right? Yes, we are. This is kind of a big deal.

4:33They got the whole setup for me. So it's been really cool to see back here behind the studio.

4:38Jourdan Rodrigue:And you've been moving offices. So I really appreciate that you've taken the time. Now, I personally, I kind of wish that we were still doing this with your draft board in the background. But that was a very subtle, good move by you to make sure that that was not the location. I had a lot of difficulties in my office. It wasn't quite the same setup we have here. It wasn't as cool. I know. You look like you're in the Avengers right now. So I'm so stoked to talk with you today. Talked with you a lot over the last couple of months just about your background, your story, and kind of what you are doing in football right now and how you do football.

5:13Jourdan Rodrigue:And you said something early on in our conversations that like really, really stuck out to me. And that is that you were raised by football. Can you explain to our listeners what you mean by that and how the sport and the people within it have shaped your background? Yeah, I think for me, you know, I was very fortunate with the family that I was born into, the experiences that I've had. And it really goes back even before my dad, my grandfather. He was a longtime coach, coached in the CFL, coached in college football. He played center in the NFL in the 60s. And that is where I really a lot of my football knowledge, I would say, comes from.

5:49And my dad, obviously, being the NFL executive, he is and a scout. So I grew up as a kid, you know, really with a front row seat to so many scouting opportunities and just seeing what that process was like. And my playing career honestly shaped me a lot. And I attribute a lot of my foot, my experiences in football and a lot of the grit that I carry with me today is a testament to the experiences that I had at the University of Miami. So those are probably the three parts, I would say, when I think of what raised me in the football world. Those are definitely the three most impactful parts of it.

6:22Jourdan Rodrigue:I'm curious about growing up as the son of an executive and obviously, you know, everybody knows though, right. And, but to see him navigate the world of, uh, you know, executive personnel and the team building aspect of it. Now, you're watching this as you're growing up, and you're also living the experience of what team building looks like in totality, which is the sport itself, playing on the field. How did you start to marry those two together? And was there ever sort of a, oh, I understand now why we do it this way because I'm feeling this when I'm out on the field? Yeah, I think, you know, he would say that I think before he knew if I wanted to be a football player, he knew I wanted to be a scout.

7:07And maybe he was just, you know, scouting me and my skill set along the way and didn't want to tell me. But, you know, I think that my experiences were different because I always love football, but I love being around the game, not just, you know, going to the games on Saturdays or Sundays. But I like knowing about practice and I wanted to know about the draft process. And he would come home and I would, you know, read the media guides. I'd try to read his reports and find players that I liked or I wanted to know who he liked and I wanted to know why. So I'd ask him tons of questions about guys.

7:37And then from there, it kind of transitioned into, you know, I'd ask him if I could write a report. And so he gave me, you know, he gave me a piece of paper and I put on the tape and I wrote a guy and he read it. I think he was kind of caught off guard because it was he says it was really good. And I might have been, you know, nine or 10 years old at the time. And so it's always been a passion of mine. And I think learning the nuances is something that I've been passionate about. And I was fortunate because he really gave me a he never made me do it, but he gave me the seat, you know, in the in the arena to, you know, find success and have the resources to be able to grow and thrive, you know, in that space.

8:11Jourdan Rodrigue:What was it about scouting specifically to you? Because most people in football, they want to be in football. They want to be on the field or the sideline or in the headset or all these things. But I really have such an appreciation for the guys who lurk, right? The observers, the people in the weeds who are like really digging into the psychology and the scheme and how somebody potentially will grow. And I guess what was it for you that made you so interested in specifically that lane? I think I always wanted to know why or know how players were so successful. And in player success, you build it into team success.

8:49And so trying to figure out all of the reasons and different ways that you could find players and build teams was always just very interesting to me. And there are tons of different ways to do it. And I think that just learning about it. And it was really just a passion of mine from a very early age. And I always wanted to, you know, figure out what what made players tick or why certain organizations were able to have more success picking players and others. And so I think that was always just very intriguing to me, even more so than playing the actual game. So that really just became a passion of mine on that side.

9:23Jourdan Rodrigue:You know, I have to ask, do the guys you are right about stick with you as much as the guys maybe that you missed on? Everybody has hits and misses, right? I just afford the misses, the misses hurt way more. But, you know, you hope that you're right more than you're wrong because you're going to get both. But, you know, you you live and you learn a lot. And that's the thing that I try to always learn. And even when, you know, you do get one right or you get a couple of guys right or things work out. I don't just you don't just stop there and say, OK, that worked and just throw it. You know, you figure out why.

9:56And was it just luck? Was it just, you know, outside circumstances? or, you know, did you have a process as to why you were able to identify, you know, traits or qualities about a player that end up in turn allowing him to be successful? So I definitely think about the misses a lot more. I still have some that, you know, haunt me. And we always joke about it. So you only have to get the ones right that you pick. And so if they miss for someone else, then, hey, that's not, you know, it's kind of out of your control.

10:21Jourdan Rodrigue:I love that. You also set me up very nicely for my next question for you. So thank you for doing that. The scouting process, people on the outside always think that it's, they think about it as it pertains to the draft, right? The NFL draft and the area scouts and the college scouts. But what you do now in pro personnel, you carry forward, not just those evaluations, which you still do, but you carry forward into the player's entire timeline and also every other player's entire timeline. Can you explain to the listener who might not know the differences between college scouting and pro scouting and the college side and the pro personnel side?

10:59Yeah. So I think everyone's really familiar with the draft process and how that works and what that looks like. Obviously, you're watching, you know, all of the college football and on the pro side, you're really managing and helping assist with all the day to day transactions that occur on the pro level. And so everything from, you know, cutting down your roster in August and you break down the year in segments and you go through and we have kind of August and training camp and you're evaluating your own roster, trying to get the best 53 players for your team. And you're evaluating the other players around the league.

11:29We break down, you know, all the teams, you know, within our department that we have. And you try to find guys at the cut down players that, you know, get cut from someone else that you can acquire on your team. And so we go through those and we transition to our in-season process where it's a lot of advanced scouting where you're working with the coaches. And we come up with, you know, evaluating the opponents that we're going to play on a week to week basis. And we evaluate all the other teams around the league as well. So we have, you know, a group of scouts in our pro department and whichever scout is primary on the advanced that week, they kind of work with the coaching staff directly.

12:03And the other group, the four or five of us, we're still evaluating all the other teams and upcoming free agents around the NFL. And once the season comes to an end, kind of in that December, January area, we were lucky this year to keep going. And so we had the fortunate but unfortunate hassle of evaluating free agency through the Super Bowl in February. And usually that's when it all goes together. And that was a really unique process. I got to learn a lot because that was the first time that I've been a part of that, you know, through the extended season. And I had a couple of years where I've been in the playoffs, but never to that extent.

12:35And so that was really cool to see that process all the way through and kind of have to go through the logistical hurdles, you know, trying to evaluate and get the free agent process right while we're still getting ready, you know, for the Super Bowl.

12:47Jourdan Rodrigue:Yeah, kind of had a lot going on at that moment, I would say. And a lot of good, good first world problems for sure. Do you think there's something that people don't know still about scouting or the calendar of pro and college and how everything has to sort of mesh together in a big puzzle? I think, you know, just how much goes into all of the decisions that are made. I think everyone knows the talent and you see the talent because you see like the players, they get picked at the top of the draft or the free agents that make, you know, 20 and 30 and 40 million dollars. Those are kind of the one-offs and the easy ones.

13:22But I think, you know, the long hours of meetings and the collaborating with the coaches, and there's so many different opinions and there's so much information that we go through, you know, to make the right decision. And I almost talk about it like when you're buying a house, like you don't just walk up with a check and just hand it over. You want to know the background, the history, all of the circumstances, you know, who built the house, what are the things that go into it? What's the longevity going to be like? Is it right for your team today? Is it right for your team long term? And so there's a lot of different questions and thoughts, you know, that, you know, go into a lot of conversations that have to be had from top to bottom.

13:57That, you know, it's a lot more than just identifying if a guy's a good player and, you know, can he help you?

14:02Jourdan Rodrigue:And then if you're in Los Angeles, you rent until you die. So good, good metaphor. Other than that, too. Yeah. Other than the other than my L.A. people who are listening. You know, AJ, you guys, we love, we talked about this all the time on NFL Daily this year. You guys did such a really good job of resetting the floor of this roster when this new regime came in. And a lot of that was rebuilding through what you do in pro personnel and figuring out how to complement what you hope to do in the draft with those sort of floor raising and ceiling raising people that build this puzzle. to do that you also have to really be locked in with the coaching staff and your communication with them and the intricacies of specifically how they want that puzzle to form out but they also have to know your methods and your plans of hey we can do this and this will lift our floor this much we can't we're not at the phase yet or we can do this other thing so how do you how do you communicate with coaches what's that like for you because again it is something you lived and learned your entire life, but how do you do it now as the pro personnel director?

15:13It's a great process here. I think, you know, I've been fortunate to be at a few places where we have gone through the transition and turn things around. And the one thing that I love here between Elliot and Coach Rabes, like they do a great job of, I would say, identifying what's important. And I've got to learn a lot, you know, being here because I came in kind of as the new guy and I came after the free agency process a year ago. And so I really got to see and reap a lot of the benefits that, you know, they built like prior to me being here. And I think the one, the one cool thing about our process is we all speak the same language.

15:46It's really about adding good people, whether that's in personnel or the players to the locker room. And we talk about building an identity and building players that are going to add to that. And I think when you learn and you've seen it so many different ways, the one thing I feel through my playing experience that has helped me is I can really understand what they're trying to build, whether that's a scheme that we're trying to run or adapting to the types of players that we're going to add, whether it's here versus my time when I was in San Francisco. Every scheme's a little different. But I think the first thing you have to do is you try to come in and learn everything going on around you, like what makes, you know, what type of players are going to make the New England Patriots the most successful.

16:25And so I spent a lot of my time doing that and learning kind of what we're building here and how we're going to be built and what type of identity we're going to have. And they make it a very easy process to be a part of because the vision is very clear. I think everyone knows what types of players that we want. And then obviously what we're trying to build in terms of the floor and ceiling of guys that we had.

16:46Jourdan Rodrigue:I do love to though, when coaches get so excited about this stuff and they, they want to invest and they want to, you know, why can't we do this? Or let's, you know, let's put all, and, and because they're so excited at first, what they just saw on the field and experience with these players, but then also what the potential could be moving forward. And you said two things to me. I actually wrote them down on a post-it because I think key phrases that I learned from league people, I save them on posts in my house. You said consistency and objectivity and maintaining that combination through everything you do.

17:21Jourdan Rodrigue:You have to sort of walk in both of those worlds and maintain, be like a guidepost, maintaining those two qualities. How do you do that? And what do those words mean to you? Yeah, I think that to me is how you build credibility. And, you know, like I've, when I started, I was, I've been through a lot of transitions with staffs. And so there's a lot of times where your scheme can change, the type of team you're on can change, even within the season, your team changes and your goal may change or how you're building your team changes, depending on the type of season you're having. And so the one thing I think that always gives you credibility, especially with coaches, especially with your staff.

18:00And even when you're building a roster is when you're very consistent and you're very objective. And I think to me, it sounds simple, but it's hard sometimes to stick to because of the emotions that come with it. And a lot of times that means having tough conversations, making tough decisions. They're not always fun and, you know, it's not always easy, but I think it goes a long way. And I think people respect it and I think they understand it. And when you're, you know, when you have to talk to four different coaches, you know, sometimes in the same week or you get a new coach and something changes or I change and I go to a new place.

18:32The one thing that can be very consistent is the way that I see the players and how I communicate it to them. And I think they understand it and they respect it a lot, you know, when you can prove to be that way, you know, over time.

18:42Jourdan Rodrigue:But you also have a like a method that you do too. You like to ask questions that lead somebody to reach and answer themselves. How did you refine that technique? And do you have an example of some type of question or a way you would ask somebody something that would maybe lead to an answer that maybe they didn't have when they first were talking about the subject? I think I've learned to ask questions. And I think as I've grown and reflecting some, I think when I was young, I was always very passionate. I've never been afraid to share my thoughts or give my opinion when I was asked. And I think I learned early on that it didn't always go over well.

19:19And I've tried to figure out, like, I was just, you know, trying to be objective and trying to be very clear or try to be very direct. And the one thing I learned was, I think just with age, you get a little more graceful. And as opposed to, you know, trying to prove the room wrong or trying to say that, you know, I don't think it's always about proving who's right and who's wrong. It's really just trying to get it right, you know, for our team and for the group on that, you know, whatever that discussion is. And so sometimes instead of saying, hey, I think all of you guys are looking at this wrong, this is what the right answer is.

19:50And this is why sometimes I think it goes a lot further and it's received a lot better when you can just ask hey like how many guys under 510 have success at this level in the NFL and so that way it comes across and it's like I don't seem like the big bad I'm not giving the I'm not the bear bad news but it's also it sparks the conversation it comes from a little different perspective it makes everyone kind of think and give their opinion about you know that particular player and so I do that a lot now where and sometimes just to get the right answer and other times it is just to get perspective in the room and say you know we're trying to build our team you know with a certain identity or a certain type of player you know does this guy fit or does he have enough traits even if he's missing something whether it's a 40 time or he may be too tall or too short for the position but if they have enough other qualities then I think we can have that conversation and see if we can get to

20:42Jourdan Rodrigue:you know ultimately the right answer I think it portrays flexibility too you you just hit on it where we have these traits that are plus traits for this player, and maybe he's average or deficient in this trait, but we have to be flexible because we're looking at this as a giant puzzle. So maybe we have a plus trait somewhere else with somebody who could complement him in a way that, I guess, lifts the bar for what that combined trait is. I'm curious, do you have a favorite question that you like to ask your scouts and your coaches? Like a sarcastic question or a real question? How about both?