In short
Nightcap episode from WWE World featuring Shannon Sharpe and Chad “Ochocinco” Johnson interviewing WWE legend The Undertaker about WrestleMania’s evolution, character creation, storytelling, wrestling business/creativity, mentorship, and his retirement.
Guests (backgrounds)
- The Undertaker: WWE seven-time world champion; 27 WrestleMania appearances; 21 straight WrestleMania victories; known for the Undertaker persona and finishing move “Tombstone.”
- Shannon Sharpe: three-time Super Bowl champion; NFL Hall of Famer; co-host.
- Chad Ocho Cinco Johnson: Bengals Ring of Fame honoree; co-host.
Key claims
- WrestleMania has grown into a bigger spectacle with far more fan access than early years.
- Fan access and personality outside the ring are “almost as important as WrestleMania.”
- Undertaker’s character was built from an initial look/name concept, then personalized; success requires making it “your own.”
- Storylines must resonate but can’t be dictated solely by impatient fans.
- He retired to protect his legacy and avoid becoming a “caricature.”
Notable examples
- Ricky Steamboat suggested the “body bag” idea.
- He gave AJ Styles the Undertaker gloves from the Boneyard match; AJ gave him his gloves back.
- Favorite modern wrestler: Gunther.
- WrestleMania “Mount Rushmore” picks: WrestleMania 25 (Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels) and Hogan vs Andre.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOWWE Experience and Atmosphere
4:30 to 7:20
Hear about the electrifying atmosphere and fan access at WWE events.
“And as a wrestling fan my entire life, if somebody would have told me this is what wrestling was going to become, I wouldn't have believed it.”
Undertaker's Character Development
7:21 to 10:04
Gain insights into how the Undertaker's character was developed and embraced.
“Early on, you know, I focused on a lot of things.”
State of Wrestling on the Creative Side
10:05 to 12:25
Understand the challenges of creating wrestling content for a broad audience.
“You can have the greatest idea, the greatest look, but if you don't make it your own, these people are here.”
Mentoring the Next Generation of Wrestlers
12:26 to 14:00
Learn about the importance of mentoring younger wrestlers and teamwork.
“You can go on YouTube and watch all the wrestling matches you want.”
Embracing Change and Mentorship in Wrestling
14:00 to 15:10
Learn about the importance of veterans helping younger wrestlers progress.
“And two, while I'm on my way, how can I help the product?”
The Appeal of Gunther in Modern Wrestling
15:10 to 16:04
Discover why Gunther stands out as a favorite wrestler in today's landscape.
“Everyone here has a specific wrestler that they like and enjoy watching today.”
Transitioning to Creative Roles in Lucha Libre
16:04 to 18:32
Explore The Undertaker's new role in creative for AAA and its challenges.
“He's a throwback to a different generation.”
Storytelling in Wrestling: Building Plotlines
18:32 to 19:53
Understand how wrestling storylines are developed over time.
“Again, we're just, I tell people this all the time.”
The Final Match: The Boneyard Experience
23:35 to 28:00
Hear insights on The Undertaker's last match and its significance.
“You ain't gonna get nothing but your hands wet.”
The Legacy of The Undertaker
28:00 to 29:19
Explore The Undertaker's thoughts on his wrestling legacy and performance.
“and I didn't want to live on equity that I'd built through the last 30 years.”
Show all 22 chapters
Transitioning Beyond Wrestling
29:20 to 31:33
Discussing the challenges of finding new passions after wrestling career ends.
“Think about as long as you've been wrestling.”
The Secrets of Wrestling
31:34 to 34:21
A discussion on the importance of maintaining some mystery in wrestling.
“You said something very interesting that, you know, people see us play the game or play basketball, play baseball.”
The Art and Skill of Wrestling
34:22 to 38:18
Insights into the skill set required to be a successful wrestler.
“I just, it just, to me, it suspends everyone's sense of reality.”
The Importance of Presence in Wrestling
38:19 to 42:02
Exploring how personality and presence can define a wrestler's success.
“Like when it comes to football, you can look at somebody, just based off looking at him and say, you know what, he has the it factor.”
Transition to Wrestling Discussion
44:54 to 45:46
The conversation shifts to wrestling's performance aspects and mic skills.
The Importance of Mic Skills in Wrestling
45:46 to 47:30
Understand how mic skills contribute to a wrestler's appeal and character.
“Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.”
Trial and Error in Wrestling Characters
47:30 to 49:24
Learn how wrestlers are often trialed for roles based on audience reaction.
“And everybody usually has some type of tendency you pick up on really, really quick.”
Creating a Signature Move
49:24 to 50:46
Discover how wrestlers develop their unique signature moves.
“The plan was not for the honky-tonk man to be, you know.”
Memorable WrestleMania Matches
50:46 to 52:52
Explore the significance of iconic WrestleMania matches and their impact.
“you have to have something that is different and catches people like, oh, man, you know, it has that wow factor to it.”
The Evolution of Wrestling Matches
52:52 to 55:10
Discuss how wrestling matches have evolved with television and audience expectations.
“Now is that all this was merging together and Andre the Giant, excuse me, Hogan was going to be the guy to move it forward.”
Wrestling Content Overexposure
55:10 to 56:01
Reflect on the challenges of content saturation in modern wrestling.
“It was like whatever Andre wanted to do.”
Wrestling Content and Creative Control
56:01 to 1:01:20
Explore the evolution of wrestling content and discuss creative control in matches.
“Just like we did when it only came on once a week.”
Transcript
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2:27Paid for by Public Investing. Brokerage services by Open to the Public Investing, Member FINRA and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available Have you heard about Klarna? Klarna is an app designed to make everyday spending simpler and more transparent. It gives you flexibility to decide how you want to pay, whether that's paying right away, paying later, or spreading payments over time, depending on what works best for you.
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4:28Shannon Sharpe:What's up WWE? He gonna sit there. No, you sit over there. He gonna sit in the middle. How y 'all doing? Y 'all good? That's what's up, man. This is unbelievable. This is my first time being here, Ocho. And as a wrestling fan my entire life, if somebody would have told me this is what wrestling was going to become, I wouldn't have believed it. No, this is dope. The atmosphere has been awesome. The fans have been awesome. Being able to meet some of the wrestlers up close and personal. Oh, that's what's the best part about this. And hearing their journey and how they got here to what most would consider the finished product on why we're all fans of them, It's been really dope to experience.
5:06Shannon Sharpe:It's unbelievable. It's an unbelievable experience. I mean, they do an unbelievable job of promoting.
5:19Yeah! And I set up and torn out this stage with my own two halves. We've traveled this land packed nice minivans. And all this with a fan. Girls, out of your back. I'm playing. This is Haker.
5:38I'm a crazy badass. Watch me kick. You can roll with Roger. You can see him. I'm a world fan. I'm like amazing.
5:52Shannon Sharpe:Seven time world champion in WWE. 27 Mania appearances. He's 25 and 2. He has 21 straight WrestleMania victories. Here he is, Undertaker, but we know him as Taker. What's up, man? Taker, you were in your, hold on, 25-2, so you've been to 27 of these things. 21 straight victories. From the very first one till now, what is the biggest difference that you think in WrestleMania when you started as opposed to what it is now? Man, just the spectacle. I mean, look out here. Look at all these people. It's unbelievable, man. It's electric. This, when I started at WrestleMania 7, this did not happen. This access, the ability to come and meet superstars, take pictures, it was at a much more limited scale.
6:50Right. Just this part alone is just, it blows me away. Every year when I come and do an autograph signing or picture signing, it's incredible.
6:59Shannon Sharpe:Seems like it's getting bigger and bigger. And I think the thing is that I love most about what WWE has done is that it allowed the fans to have access. It gives you an opportunity to show your personality just outside of the ring and to get an opportunity to meet you guys. Because I don't know how much meet and greet you guys had when you first started this. Not very many. You know, we got here and just kind of focused on, well, most guys focused on their match. The match. Early on, you know, I focused on a lot of things. They didn't necessarily have the fans involved. But, again, as we grew, man, this is almost as important as WrestleMania.
7:42Yes. You know, I mean, this is an incredible opportunity for people to get really close to, you know, the people that they support.
7:52Shannon Sharpe:Help me understand this. You come and you create a character. You and the WWE create a character. How did they help you develop that character? How did you embrace that character and say, okay, I'm the Undertaker? This is what I need? Because when you think of Undertaker, you think of all black. You think of a mortician. And you think of something cold and sinister. How did they help you to develop that character, and how did you embrace it so well? I think it varies between talent to talent. Okay. For me, I was presented a look in the name. Okay. This is what we think is, you know, they needed somebody big with zero personality.
8:34And there I walked through the door. But for me, once I was given the initial image and then told me, you know, okay, this is going to be based off of an old Western Undertaker. And then the lights just kind of started going off for me. So they're in a real set pattern. Like for me, I took the ball and started running with it and figuring this thing out. You know, some guys come in and they're like, I don't know. So they need a little bit more help and direction. And, you know, you have other guys that have already been here that kind of – it's amazing the amount of input that you get from other wrestlers.
9:18Right. That, you know, they're driving up and down the roads back then and say, I'll give you an example. You know, I've heard there was a time there where I carried people. after I beat them, I put them in body bags, right? Right. And everybody thinks that's just some sinister shit, right? And of all people to give me that idea was the nicest guy in the world, which was Ricky Steamboat. The dragon. Yeah, he came up and he says, he goes, hey, you ever thought about this? And I was like, that's genius. So, you know, some guys, they need help in that development, and then other guys just take that ball and, you know, they just kind of go down that rabbit hole and figure out, okay, how am I going to make this my own?
10:04And that's the key to being successful. You can have the greatest idea, the greatest look, but if you don't make it your own, these people are here. They're not going to buy it. Right. And they're not going to invest in it. So, you know, that's the key. When you look at the state of wrestling, as great as it is now, as a product in general, internationally, globally, has your perspective changed from a business aspect now that you're on the creative side? Yeah, but you always want to have your thumb on what it is that's reaching your audience. And that becomes, it becomes difficult. Like when you do get behind the scenes, you have to remember that you're not necessarily you know, you're not necessarily creating for yourself anymore.
10:57Correct. So you're creating for the masses, so you have to not only be able to take, okay, well, this is what I like. Okay, well, that might be great, but that's only going to affect like 20 % of these people. Right. You have to be able to get your fingers out there and make it a net and get everybody what everybody wants to enjoy. So it's a pretty difficult process to do. through your Six Foot Under podcast,
11:23Shannon Sharpe:that platform, how has that allowed you to engage with your fan base on a different level than, say, you know, you going, you know, doing something like this because they get an opportunity to see you in a totally different light than what they've ever seen you before? Yeah, it's taken me a while to embrace that because I was, for so long, you know, I protected my character, right? There was nothing, there was Undertaker and there was nothing else. that's all that anybody ever got to see right and i think that that contributed to the success of it correct um but i think with the with the podcast and getting out there and hearing some of the stories that i've you know that i've that i've had with some of the guys and truth be told i don't i don't like talking about wrestling you like talking oh so what are you fishing hunting what do you know all that's good okay but as far as like with a podcast like the The best podcast episodes are when I got with my boys and we're talking about what we did after wrestling.
12:25Right? Like, that's what everybody wants to do. You can go on YouTube and watch all the wrestling matches you want. Right. But what happened with me and the Godfather in a bar down the street.
12:36Shannon Sharpe:Right. You know, that's kind of what I think kind of peaks these people's, you know, their interest now. They get plenty of wrestling. They want the juice. As an older wrestler that doesn't do it anymore, you adopted that you're helping and bringing along this generation of wrestlers. Ocho and I, we play football, and a lot of times we try to give back. We try to mentor the younger guys and try to tell them what to expect, how to go about their business. Be professional. Be yourself, but be professional. Just remember one thing. The football team is a team. It's not always going to be about you.
13:10Shannon Sharpe:What is it for the best interest of the football team, and how can we all win, not just you? Is that something, some things that you try to share with this younger generation? Yeah, absolutely. Because as a talent, if you're fortunate enough to get on that wheel and then have that run, right? And when I say run, something that's going on with like Roman Reigns right now. He's on an incredible run. Yes. Cody Rhodes. All these guys are on a run. But it's not necessarily always going to be like that. We always use it as an analogy, the wheel, right? So you're here. That wheel's moving, right? So there's a good chance, not necessarily all the time, but there's a good chance that it's going to end up down here.
13:51Right. And you have to be able to, one, you have to figure out, okay, what do I need to do to get back up there? And two, while I'm on my way, how can I help the product? How can I help the product? Because if the product gets better, that's going to give everybody more opportunities. So you just, you got to, you got to roll with it. you can never be content in this business. As soon as you're content, you're done. Because there's always somebody coming along that's younger, faster, stronger, and more hungry. But as veterans, you have to, you say, all right, okay.
14:29Shannon Sharpe:It's my time now. I'm going to embrace it. But knowing that it might be someone else's time later, let me help them. And then when my time comes back again, I'll be ready. Yeah. Yeah, and that's the hard part is when that climb up, man, that climb up is awesome. Yeah. You feel it, right? You know it, and then you get there. Yeah. For you guys, you get that ring, right? You try to stay there as long as you possibly can. Absolutely. You scratch and claw, and you hang on to it. So, yeah, it's important for the veterans to help those guys. You know what? Being a veteran, helping some of the young fighters now that are up and coming, You know, giving them the knowledge on what it takes to be great, what it takes to be consistent, having that structure, having that discipline.
15:16Everyone here is a fan of wrestling. Everyone here has a specific wrestler that they like and enjoy watching today. So for you, in today's wrestling landscape, who is your favorite wrestler to watch? Oh, man. I tell you, because he's such an old school guy, probably won't be received real well. But I love Gunther.
15:40Shannon Sharpe:Okay. I do. I absolutely, there's no flash. There's no flash. What you get is somebody going in there and he's going to stomp your guts out. Right. He's going to chop you up. He's going to beat you up. Yeah. And, you know, he ain't flying around doing a bunch of silly stuff. He's in there. And, I mean, he's just a serious character. And he's a throwback. Yeah. He's a throwback to a different generation. Okay. And it just lets you know that, you know, what is old can be new again. Yeah. Is there anybody that in today's wrestling reminds you of Taker? No. No. No. No. No, not really. I mean, you know, Bray Wyatt was coming along before his unfortunate demise.
16:34but it, you know, he had that aura, that kind of otherworldly type character. And, you know, obviously it's a shame what happened with Bray because I think he'd only begin to scratch the surface of how great he was going to be.
16:56Shannon Sharpe:You've taken a behind-the-scenes role, if I'm not mistaken, with Triple-A, which is, if I'm not mistaken, WWE purchased it. So what does your role entail with AAA? So I don't talk about it a whole lot, but I'm down there in a creative role. Got an incredible team down there, and we are trying, you know, Lucha Libre is a wrestling style all to itself. Yes. And kind of going back to my last comment about old school. Yes. like Luke, like, like Gunther, it's kind of crazy that somebody like me isn't, is doing creative for a Lucha Libre product, right? Because they, those guys are incredible. They, I mean, they will fly and do things like you just like, how in the world did they do that?
17:52But, um, you know, we're just, what we're trying to do down there and be involved is to tell better stories yes be a little more physical and be true to to lucha libre and that's that's uh and give them some a better production value um they've been doing things for a long time down there in a very simplistic way so now we have that wwe production machine that we're implementing um You know, we've got a long way to go. Right. But I couldn't be more happy with the success that we've had so far. Again, we're just, I tell people this all the time. What we're trying to do there is I'm trying to take a step back, like a little bit of a step back in wrestling to take a step forward.
18:46And a little bit of old school mixed with the new school. Hopefully we're going to have a very unique and interesting product that not only people in Mexico want to see, but all over the world.
18:58Shannon Sharpe:It's interesting to me because when I grew up, I didn't know anything about storylines. I just thought two guys get in the ring and beat the hell out of each other. But there are storylines. How long is a storyline? Is it just for that match or two matches, or are they trying to build something for, say, a month, two months, three months? How does this work? It's up to them. Oh, okay. You can have this brilliant idea in your mind and like, oh, man, I want to see wrestler A fight wrestler B. Right. And you think this is going to be the greatest thing ever. Right. And then you kind of start looking at, well, man, I would love to get this match all the way to WrestleMania.
19:38But then you put it out there and sometimes it ain't as good. It's just like a play call, right? Yes. You think it's going to work. At practice, it works, right? Yes. But it's the same thing. Copenhagen spit-free pouches are packed full of American-grown tobacco. Made for welders. Stuck behind masks. More mechanics. Stuck on a fused spark plug. The long-haul trucker is stuck in gridlock. For foreman working late at the field office. Or anytime there's no time or space to spit, there's Copenhagen spit-free pouches. Find them in stores today. Not all varieties available in all geographies. Warning, this product can cause mouth cancer.
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23:34But again, if your audience doesn't resonate or they don't get with it, then, you know, it's I call it pissing up a rope. You ain't gonna get nothing but your hands wet. You know what? I'm glad you said that. And obviously, it's all about the fans, obviously, knowing and understanding what they want. Always being two steps ahead, especially when it comes to creativity and storyline. When it comes to those that wrestle, it comes to those that have creative control on what the storylines are going to be. Do you pay attention to what the fans say and what they want? Well, you do. There's a lot that goes into that.
24:14Because obviously, they're not in the know of what the big picture is. And sometimes people get impatient and they don't want to wait. right and and and that's part of the storytelling aspect but you have to be able to have these beats in the story that keep them like oh okay i want to captivate it i want to see like every you know back in the day and and you know in the in the uh in the monday night war like everybody was like we would go off with a cliffhanger and everybody like and we didn't have so we didn't have as much uh cover you know you couldn't just go to youtube or whatever right you had to wait You had to wait until the next Monday night to see what was going to happen.
24:56So, you know, so, yeah, so to answer your question, I mean, you have to have good creative, and it has to resonate to a certain extent with your audience. And you have to listen, but you can't let it dictate either.
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25:13Shannon Sharpe:Right. I think that's kind of a problem. If it solely dictates on that, then you lose focus of what it is you're trying to do. AJ Styles revealed recently that you gave him the gloves in your final match, the Boneyard match, during the pandemic. How did that come about? Because I guess in wrestling, like, when you're done with it, you leave your boots in the center of the ring. And so you knew this was it for Taker. Yeah, there was no coming back from the Boneyard win, lose, or draw. That was definitely it for me. I got everything out of the sponge that I could possibly get. Right. I rung it up.
25:48So, you know, I always, my WrestleMania opponents, I've just always, you know, when the streak came into play and then just my part as WrestleMania, I always wanted to leave my opponents with something that they were going to remember that with. So at the conclusion of the Boneyard, people say I'm crazy for it, but I gave the gloves that I wore in that match to AJ Styles. And he has them. AJ has the last pair of gloves that I ever used. So, yeah, and it means the world to him. It was cool. And he gave me his. so I have his gloves that he fought in and he's got mine and it's kind of a cool deal.
26:42I can look up on the shelf and like, you know what? We tore it up that night.
26:47Shannon Sharpe:So you knew going into that match, 20 plus two decades plus, yeah, this is it for me. The ride stops here. Whether they wanted to stop or not, I'm getting off this ride. Were your body beat up? Oh my gosh, yeah. My body was beat up 10 years prior. Yeah, no, actually, that night in the boneyard, like, I was looking for one particular match that I could hang my hat on and walk away. Like, I could put my six shooters up and go home and stay. And it just happened, you know, that match was filmed all, it started at about 8 o 'clock at night, and we finished that match at some time at, like, 5 in the morning.
27:33Wow. And it was at about three in the morning when I was standing there and I was like, I had a moment. And I was like, I'm done. Right. Like there is no, this is it. And it was a moment of clarity. And it wasn't any sorrow. There wasn't any like, man, I wish I got to do this. It was as clear as day. I knew that I got everything. The desire was still there. Right. But I knew my body could not, it just couldn't deliver. and I didn't want to live on equity that I'd built through the last 30 years. You know, this is a very gracious audience, but there's at a point you've got to decide, like, my legacy becomes involved in this.
28:16And I was already skirting that. They deserve the best taker. Absolutely. I would hate it. It always would kill me to know, like, a father. And I had a lot of them today in my signing today or in my photos with their kids. And they had watched me as a kid, and they hyped me up to their kids like, man, we're going to see The Undertaker. He is so awesome, right?
28:44Shannon Sharpe:Right. And then you get there, and you're like, oh, he ain't quite what I remembered, right? But so just the thought of that, it bothered me. And I just didn't want to end up in that. I didn't want to be a caricature of my former self. So I knew it was time. And, you know, I got back. I got no regrets. And I got no regrets, no worries. And it was a moment of clarity. And I got to leave with the match that I wanted. Have you found something else to fill that void? Think about as long as you've been wrestling. That's something that you love. You get up, you're forced to want to work. It gives you inspiration.
29:30It gives you motivation. Like Unc and I, football was all we had. That was my identity. It's all I knew. So every single day, that's what I wanted to do, and I loved it. What has filled that void now that you've stopped wrestling, that you can't wait to get up for and you're excited for once again? I don't know that I have just one thing. When you're focused, to play in the NFL, Well, you have to, you have to, people just don't understand the amount that goes into that. Like they say, oh, well, man, you know, there's Ocho Cinco on the sideline with his Hall of Fame jacket on, you know, cutting up.
30:08Shannon Sharpe:Yeah. You don't just do that by chance. You have to be great. Yes. To be able to do those things. But what people don't see are you in June, in July, with your boys going and working out in the heat and all the effort and the work that goes into all that. So, you know, it does become your identity. And everything that you do is revolved around not only being on a team, but starting, being great, winning Super Bowls. It's the same thing for me. my whole identity was involved was just being the undertaker. And I don't know that I, you know, hindsight being 22, I didn't, I don't know that I built an exit strategy.
30:55I thought I was going to do it forever. Yes. Like, you know, you're not, but just in your head, you don't think about it. I said, I'm going to, I'll do this forever. And then forever got here one day. So it took me a minute to, to like, okay, well now what? Right. You know, and I love, like, I mean, I love hunting and fishing and doing all that, But, you know, you guys do a great job. Like, podcasting, I don't know that it's it. I have my moments. It's a lot of work. It is a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And, you know, I don't know that I'll ever have that thing that gets me going.
31:33Shannon Sharpe:The podcast for wrestling. You said something very interesting that, you know, people see us play the game or play basketball, play baseball. Everybody sees the destination. Nobody saw the journey. So that's the hard part. The destination is, okay, yeah, I'm here. How did he or she get there? That's the very interesting part. I heard you say on the podcast is that you, and maybe I'm paraphrasing, maybe I misheard you, but you said, man, I wish we wouldn't tell all the secrets of how the sausage is made. Yeah, I'm guilty of it too. I believe, you know, everything is open. Everything's talked about openly now.
32:14And, again, I'm as guilty as anybody about it. But I think as a whole, for the sake of the business, there needs to be a stopping point. A little secrecy. I think, I don't think you like, I don't know. I just, I could be wrong there. And, you know, in my day, obviously, I came in the generation where you don't talk about the business outside of you just don't do it. People in the business. Yeah, exactly. So obviously, you know, we're not. I just think they don't that our audience, even though they think they might want to know, I think that there was a certain amount of secrecy being able to have that.
32:56I think it would be I think the product would be more fun.
32:59Shannon Sharpe:Yes. Right. Because if you already know what's going to happen or if this is going to happen, then it's like, okay, I'm just going to wait for that part to happen. Right. Like, that was the great thing about Monday nights, again, in the attitude era. You had no clue what was going to happen. And, again, you had to wait. I think there needs to be a little bit more protection of the business. And I only use that word because, I mean, that's just the words we've always used. Right. Who revealed that secret? Because for the longest time, my grandfather would put you out if you told him wrestling was fake.
33:35Shannon Sharpe:He'd put you out of the house. You could not tell him it was. And I thought it was real, too, for the longest time. Who was the first person to appeal the layer back? It's like X, Y, and Z. Well, I don't know that there was just one person that, you know, there was the time period where Vince went and he had to, we were having to fight athletic commissions. Right. And pay an exorbitant amount of money to these athletic commissions for what? Right. So, I mean, I think everybody knows what wrestling is, but I don't think you want it thrown in your face. Right. Yeah. And it's okay. Everybody says, oh, wrestling is fake.
34:13Wrestling is not fake. It is a form of sports entertainment, and it's a specific form of sports entertainment.
34:22Shannon Sharpe:what we do is genuinely real for what it is that we do yeah well if i'm breaking bones tearing my acl and achilles that's real yes but i got i got 20 surgeries that say it's as damn as real as it needs to be i remember the first uh i don't know if you remember this taken ocho you remember what uh i think it was fox had a series where they had this guy that was revealing all the magic tricks and so you remember that and it was kind of like we knew come on yeah but i'm just like i don't even want to know i just after the first i was like i don't want to watch anymore because i still want to have the illusion exactly that he's doing something that nobody else can do that is a perfect analogy and it's the same same thing with with wrestling i just i think it's just better if you know i don't i don't want to go to i don't want to know how the trick's done i just don't I want to be entertained.
35:12I want to think about how it's done. Yeah. Right? I just, it just, to me, it suspends everyone's sense of reality. And that's a brilliant analogy. It's really good.
35:22Shannon Sharpe:Is there a lot of father-sons? Because we see in basketball father-sons, we see football father-sons, baseball father-sons. Are there a lot of father-sons in wrestling? Yes, there is. I just know Cody. I just know Cody and Dustin. Yeah, no, there's plenty. And unfortunately, I've wrestled dads, and now I've wrestled their sons. I've been around. But, yo, man, there's tons, and there's more coming. Coming, okay. Right? I'm sure that Seth and Becky's kids will probably wrestle. Yeah. You got all the damn Samoans. You know they're going to wrestle. Oh, yeah. The Uso, they're coming. I have a daughter that's ate up with it.
36:01Wow. Yeah. I think, yes, nepotism in the wrestling world is going to be. You got Rick and Charlotte. Yeah, man. It's just. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it's a. There's a long lineage of second generation, third generation. Randy Orton, third generation.
36:21Shannon Sharpe:Yeah. Cody Rhodes, I think he said Don Mysterio. He thinks he's going to be the next generational talent. He says his work ethic is unmatched. and we were talking to a lot, we were talking to Naya and Lash and even Charlotte said, you know, there are a lot of people, just because you have the talent, you know, you're athletic, you can spin, you can jump and do all these things, that doesn't necessarily equate to you being a great wrestler. No, absolutely not. No, there's a lot of great athletes that try this and just scratch their head and are befuddled. Like, I'm a world-class athlete. Why can I not do this fake thing?
37:03Right. There's so much to this. Yes, you do have to be athletic. Yes. Two, you have to have a different kind of mental toughness. And two, you have to be able, once again, you have to be able to connect. And just being a great athlete doesn't do it.
37:20Shannon Sharpe:That's not enough. I mean, in football, basketball, there's a lot of guys. Absolutely. that are just incredible. But for whatever reason, that team situation, it doesn't work out. Right. You know, and the same goes with wrestling. You have to have that thing that connects. There's a lot of guys that come along and, you know, we kind of call them ham and eggers. They're middle-of-the-road guys. It's just because they can't spark that extra interest. And that's what makes wrestling so difficult, is to have people interested in what it is that you do. I mean, the funny thing when I think about it, just being a wrestling fan over the years, it's an art.
38:07It's an art in itself. And everybody paints that picture differently. And when it comes to all the attributes and all the variables that makes a great wrestler, everybody doesn't have it. Sometimes there's an it factor. Like when it comes to football, you can look at somebody, just based off looking at him and say, you know what, he has the it factor. He passes the eye test. But when it comes to playing a position of tight end or whether it's receiver, when it's time to get out there and the lights are on, they don't show up. It's different. It's a different ballgame. It is the same. It's the same in the wrestling world.
38:41Yeah, it's just some people have it and some don't, man. And it's crazy. Like, you know, we were talking earlier about mentoring and all that different thing. It was so crazy for a young wrestler. Like, they'll come up to you and like, hey, take, you know, I got this match with so-and-so. What will you watch my match and, you know, give me some feedback? And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. And then you'll also see him going. Like, I think Shawn Michaels is somewhere here, right? So now he's got Undertaker watching. He's got Shawn Michaels watching. Maybe he's got Triple H watching. now we're all three going to watch that match and we're all three going to give you different advice and it's all right right it's all different you because you have to figure out what works for you right and what worked for me may not work for you it ain't working for sean michael sean yeah exactly and that is what makes it so difficult to be a top guy for wwe because it's just it's just you've got to have something that's different and that resonates again with your audience.
39:49Shannon Sharpe:But when you look at it, the promo is very important. You look at a guy like a Ric Flair, you look at a guy like a Dusty Rhodes, you look at a Rock, you look at a Stone Cold, they can hold this microphone, look into that camera and convince millions and millions of people to tune in and watch me kick somebody butt. You, you're like, hey, I'm not supposed to have a personality. I'm a knight. I'm an old school Western undertaker. I just come in. I just, hey, this is the body that I delivered to you. Hey, that's it. That's all I had. How is it that some guys just have that God-given ability? Ocho and I, we were best with a God-given ability to just be able to talk.
40:27Shannon Sharpe:Some people can work at it and get good at it. I think Muhammad Ali, rest his soul, he just had that God-given ability. That was just born in him. How do guys get, if you're not as gifted as some, how do you get better at it? Do you have to, like, practice like you do, like, football or basketball? Do you have to practice and practice until you get good at it? Reps. Reps. Reps, man. I mean, how many routes have you got somebody? How many routes have you run? And how many times have you figured out how to make that route better? It's the same thing. It's standing in front of a mirror. Standing in front of a mirror.
41:01Well, let me tell you something, brother. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Somebody might be doing that. Let me, you know. it's yeah i mean it just it's just time and time again until you figure out to one that you're so comfortable yeah you know like somebody i would have somebody come into the room and just throw something random out and then this is way even before undertaker it's like just give come give me a random topic and then try to riff on it and and make it like oh yeah that's that's normal like I can't even come up with really an example, but just throwing things against the wall to see what sticks, getting to a point where if you do get stuck, how to just be your way through it.
41:49Again, that's the hardest part. That's probably for me the biggest key. If I can give you a mic and you can go out there and you can captivate your audience, I can teach you to wrestle. I can teach you well enough. There's been great guys that drew a lot of money that could barely tie their... Copenhagen Spit Free packs American-grown tobacco into pouches. Made for when your elbow's deep in an engine block. They're masked up, torching deep cuts into stubborn pipes. Her helmet's on, riding deep into backcountry. When there's no time or space to spit, grab Copenhagen's spit-free pouches. Find them in stores today.
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45:45I'll see you next time. analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Shoes and not trip. But you put a microphone in their hand? Yes. Oh my God. Like I want to see that guy fight. I want to see what he's going to do to that other guy.
46:05Shannon Sharpe:Is that all a part of it also? So when you go to NXT or they come see you guys, is that all a part of it? It's just not ring work. Obviously, you have to get in front of the camera and do other things and things of that nature. So is Is that a part of the schooling process that you have to go through and not just ring and how to come off a rope or jive off a turnbuckle or something like that? Yeah, the actual in-ring stuff is probably the easiest part. Oh, okay. I mean, obviously there's guys that are so gifted that can do incredible moves and all that. But to me, watching somebody who's going to be great, the wrestling part of it is that simple.
46:48having this and being able to again keep them in the palm of your hand yep that is the gift right that i mean there's been a million guys like i'll tell you rock for instance when rock debuted in madison square garden i looked at you know he's a you know he's a second third generation as well yep and i remember him coming out and he had that ridiculous thing around him and he was going to be right and I think it was Godfather I was like oh this guy who he gonna make it man and I missed I missed but somewhere in that time period he got a hold of the mic and then he separated himself like wow yeah this guy is really talented but you have to yeah I mean if you can do it with the mic and you can make people you got to there's two that you got to make people love you you got to make them hate you right there ain't no in between and it doesn't matter right and i could care less you can love me you hate me but you have to have a feeling right if you don't if you don't feel you're you're wasting your time how do they determine
48:02Shannon Sharpe:whether you're going to be good or the heel or do you determine that how does that go how does that happen if and then how does it flip yeah a lot of times it's it's kind of trial and error okay you know some people like oh this guy looks you know he looks like this or he looks like that and you kind of got you get kind of stereotyped into a role right um and then you know i get it's it's trial and error like okay maybe he's not a you know maybe he isn't a maybe he isn't a bad guy So let's see what his tendencies are. And everybody usually has some type of tendency you pick up on really, really quick.
48:38Like, you know, he didn't like losing. He doesn't like doing that. He's a baby face. He's a good guy. Okay. And this guy, he'll, you know, he'll put his thumb in your eyeball. He's a little more edgy. So, again, and again, I remember back in the day when the honky-tonk man came in. And they built Honky Tonk Man up like he was going to be the biggest good guy that ever came down the pipe. And the audience absolutely just destroyed him. They booed him so badly, and he turned into an incredible heel intercontinental champion. So again, a lot of it relies on your audience. And that was not the plan.
49:25Right. The plan was not for the honky-tonk man to be, you know. He's supposed to be the good guy. Yeah, he's going to be a good guy. And so you just have to, sometimes you can't fight it. You just got to go with it and make the most of it.
49:39Shannon Sharpe:Signature move. How do you get a signature move? I mean, do you have to have a signature move? I mean, some people have the figure four and some people have the sleeper hole or the full Nelson, Van Rompreski had the claw. How do you develop a signature move or do they say, okay, this is going to be your signature move? Well, a lot of guys that come in and they've already kind of got a move set and things that they've been doing. Okay. One, hopefully you're fortunate enough to be in a situation where you have to have a finishing move, right? You come in and they don't care, well, you're going to be in trouble.
50:15So, yeah, so then you want to, you got to have something that kind of resonates with your character. Right. Like, obviously, mine being the tombstone. Right. You know, in my head, I envisioned, well, this old undertaker was picking up the tombstone, and he was, you know, he was planting it at the grave. Right. So it made sense. Right. But, yeah, it's just, one, you got to do something different. Mm-hmm. You know, and think about all the wrestlers doing all these different, you have to have something that is different and catches people like, oh, man, you know, it has that wow factor to it. Right.
50:55Shannon Sharpe:Of all the WrestleManias, if I said, okay, Taker, give me your Mount Rushmore WrestleManias, the matches, who would you say is the four best WrestleManias out of, here we are, what, 42 now? Your four best, if you can recall.
51:14Twice. And I'm definitely not one to. So, WrestleMania 25, Undertaker versus Shawn Michaels. Okay. If I was going to show a young kid that's coming up in the business what our business is supposed to be about, it's that match. That's the one. It encapsulates athleticism, story, character, years of feuding. I think it encapsulated all of those things into one match. What? Another one. What?
52:04You know, Hogan and Andre. You know, I mean, that was so significant.
52:10Shannon Sharpe:That was the passing. Because Andre, really, that was the, he started out, I remember Andre in Georgia Championship Wrestling. I remember seeing him in Savannah Civic Center, and I saw him in Vidalia, Georgia. Back then, a lot of times, you guys were, I don't know if you were way back then, Taker, but they was wrestling in high school gyms. They was wrestling in really, really small venues. Maybe 100 people. Maybe 200 people would be. If that many. And so he was like the old, and here come Hogan. Right. And like I said, wrestling used to be very, very regional. You had Georgia Championship Wrestling.
52:43Shannon Sharpe:You had Florida. You had Mid-Atlantic. You had the North Atlantic. You had the Midwest. And so now here was the combination and McMahon and what they were able to do now, the WWF, WWE. Now is that all this was merging together and Andre the Giant, excuse me, Hogan was going to be the guy to move it forward. Yes, and that was the significance of their WrestleMania match. It was Andre moving aside. You know, Andre was the first global superstar of a wrestler. So he went from territory to territory. Like he would be in this territory for a couple of days, and he would go. I mean, he was a global attraction.
53:23Shannon Sharpe:Yes. And just incredible. And then, again, so Vince has taken over, and he's gone to cable television, and, you know, Hogan was his guy. So a lot of people don't realize the significance of that match just for the sake of the industry. And Andre did. So that's why Andre did business. Because if Andre didn't want to, he didn't have to. You know what? Hogan and Vince were saying, I think it was a documentary or something, and they were saying Andre could barely walk. At that point in time, his body had betrayed him. He's so big. He's 500 pounds. He's 7 foot tall. And now all of a sudden, his body has started to betray him.
54:05Shannon Sharpe:They brought him out on like a scaffolding. And they drove him down to the ring. and the guys get in the ring and they're going through it and all of a sudden he tells Hogan, slam. Yeah. Which means, okay, body slamming. Okay, not a leg. And Hogan's like, already? Okay, this is what he asked for. Boom, boom, and the match is over. Yep. I didn't realize, like, and I was talking to Lash and Nia yesterday, it's like, sometimes you forget the sequence. And, you know, you gather and they're talking and you have a referee that has the producer. Not back then, but yes. You did. So you so basically you had to memorize kind of like an Easter speech.
54:45Shannon Sharpe:You had to memorize Easter speech taker. Well, sort of. So back in the day when when wrestling was kind of at its purest art form. Yes. Is everything was more ad libbed. OK. Right. OK. It was it was kind of on the spot kind of a deal. OK. TV came along and you had to hit breaks and live TV. So the product kind of changed then. But, yeah, there wasn't anything really to remember back then. It was like whatever Andre wanted to do. And that was what Hogan was going to do, whatever Andre told him. And Andre knew that they were selling quality, not quantity. And when it's time, that's a problem that you have to be able to, you have to know when to go sometimes, when to go home.
55:36Shannon Sharpe:Right. You can go out there like, well, I got six more moves that I haven't done yet. Right. You don't need to get the whole hit record in there. You just got to get the key points. Take a – look, when I was a kid, wrestling came on once a week. It came on Saturday nights. It came on really, really late. Yep. What's so hard for me to fathom is that it comes on – you might – you're able to see it three nights a week, and the fans are still craving it. Just like we did when it only came on once a week. And now you get an opportunity to see and you see Raw and you see SmackDown and you get these manias.
56:13Shannon Sharpe:And it's just it's still the same. Yeah, it's crazy because the the amount of content that's out there. Yes, it's it's incredible. I've always and have for many years like, man, are we overexposing ourselves? but that comes from decisions farther up the pay grade than what I'm doing. But you have to, again, if you're not, you know, the crowds are full, if you're not putting it out there and they want it, they want it. They want good. They want good wrestling. Now that I think about it, too, being a wrestling fan for so long, watching it over the years, myself, you being on the creative side, I want you to think about this.
57:01Now you have creative control. Uncle and I, tag team partners.
57:09Who are we wrestling? Like right now. And we really want to make this come into fruition. Uncle and I want to wrestle.
57:18Shannon Sharpe:Okay. Uncle don't want to wrestle. No. One match. We want to relive our childhood dream. I want to be Bobby the Brain Heenan. I want to be Paul Heyman. I want to be somebody like that. You want to talk. You don't want to take no bumps. I want to talk. You want to talk? No bumps. Tag team. Who are you putting up against? Modern day? Right now. That's what I'm saying. Tag teams are out there now? Let me think. Let's see.
57:48You got definitely baby faces, right?
57:52Shannon Sharpe:Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We'd be good guys. We'd be good guys. No, we got to be the heels.
58:02See, we already got dissension. Y 'all ain't wrestling one match and y 'all are already going at it. I think we're going to book one-on-one, lose or leave. I like that.
58:13Shannon Sharpe:I want a Texas bull rope match. No, you don't. Those are fun. That bull rope's real, believe me. But there used to be a lot of matches. You know, Texas death match. You had a steel cage match. and you had, you know, wrap the hands up and all kind of. You guys have kind of gotten away. Are they still steel cage matches? So occasionally they'll do a steel cage. I think we have war games. I guess it's kind of considered, you know, a cage match. But then you have, you've got Hell in a Cell. Okay. And then you have, what's the other one in February? Chamber, yeah. Chamber. Punchy. The bumps are real.
58:59Yeah. Yeah, so we have those themed matches. Yes. And occasionally something will happen through the course of a storyline where you'll lock them up. It's a different vibe these days, but that used to be the be-all to end-all was going to Steel Cage. Yeah. You knew you were going to get blood and it was going to be a violent.
59:26Shannon Sharpe:Nobody can bleed like Ric Flair. Nobody can bleed like Dusty. Dusty. Dusty Flair. Yeah, hey, yeah. Those are probably two of the best bleeders. Wildfire Tommy Rich. Yeah. He was a good bleeder. The fabulous Freebird. Do you, if I'm not mistaken, I think Rey Mysterio might be the only one that still wears a mask. You know, back then, they used to have a lot of guys, Mr. Wrestling No. 1 and 2, the Super Destroyers. There are a lot of guys that had masks on. You guys don't have guys with masks very much other than Mysterio, right? Well, we've got Dragon Lee. Oh. Yeah. We got, hey, if you want mask guys, come down to AAA.
1:00:12We got lots of mask guys down there. Libre. Lucha Libre, brother. Yes, yes. But, yeah, you know, the thing with wearing a mask, and a lot of people don't really think about this is you can't see their face. You can't see their face, right? That might have been the most silly thing that I've said. But when you watch something, when you watch wrestling, you kind of key in on the face. Yes. The face tells the whole story. Yes. The face tells you whether you're happy, whether you're sad, whether you're pissed off, whether you're hurt, whether you're happy to see the other guy hurt. So you lose a lot of storytelling ability when you wear a mask.
1:00:50Shannon Sharpe:Okay. And that's a lot of people don't think about that. I used to love when they tried to take the mask off in the ring. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's big business down south of AAA, man. We got a huge mask coming up. A huge mask match coming up. Mask versus mask. Right. The El Grandes. You guys have been, yep. Thank you guys so much. Here he is, The Undertaker.
1:01:21Oh, man.
1:02:00We'll be right back.
1:02:20Or anytime there's no time or space to spit, there's Copenhagen spit-free pouches. Find them in stores today. Not all varieties available in all geographies. Warning, this product can cause mouth cancer. When it comes to advancing your education, you have more options than you think. At Rasmussen University, we find ways to remove barriers, not build them. Like a new laptop if you're eligible and enroll in select online or on-campus programs. That means flexible and engaging online courses and resources, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support, and much more. Online nationally or check out their 20 campuses across six states.
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Shannon Sharpe and Chad “Ochocinco” Johnson are LIVE from WWE World in Las Vegas for WrestleMania 42 featuring The Undertaker. Undertaker breaks down his WWE legacy, AAA booking, favorite matches in history, and much more!
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