Fox News drops BAD NEWS for Trump

22:52Brian Tyler Cohen:Donald Trump's teleprompter operator is now under investigation for, you know. Can I just say something about, as a former speechwriter, I find it so offensive that this teleprompter operator was selling, was like making money on bets on what words Trump was going to say in the speeches because he only made$100 ,000 and he should be embarrassed. I mean, I'm sorry, but you know where the ball is going to go in the roulette wheel and you only get$100 ,000? Shame on you. Donald Trump is stealing billions of dollars. You're going down for$100 ,000? What was it? There was one... Somebody kept making money thinking or betting on the fact that Trump would say praise Allah in his truth social posts.

23:41Brian Tyler Cohen:Oddly specific, and then it happened twice. Unbelievable. I don't think these betting markets are good, but that's for a different talk. Yeah. Okay. Going back to all of the corruption that we're seeing right now, look, it would be one thing if we just investigated the corruption because it's the right thing to do and it's illegal, but consider, too, the fact that this is a Republican Party that has groomed the country into recognizing that corruption at the hands of a president's family is bad and disqualifying. It was bad when Hunter Biden was doing it for like$50 ,000 paintings. But then when the Trump kids are making billions of dollars in military defense contracts and cryptocurrency, somehow that's not okay.

24:21Brian Tyler Cohen:This is a country that has been groomed to recognize that this stuff is disqualifying. If this is investigated by Congress, that also lays the foundation for a future DOJ to use that information, this fact-finding information, to begin prosecutions in the future. So let's not waste time. Let's actually do something because there's a moral imperative to do it and a legal imperative to do it.

24:47I went to a Hunter Biden art show once. Surprising amount of pathos.

24:56But moving on from that, you know, I think sometimes one thing that I've just been thinking about, especially in the second Trump administration, And I think it's something that is driving a certain subset of liberals and progressives batty, and I think with good reason, which is a lot of this is about strategizing, theorizing, plotting for how to use power in a society that doesn't seem to care enough or as much about corruption, basic democratic values, treating people with empathy and respect, not taking a shit on Nancy Pelosi's desk. I'm not saying these things are popular. I'm not saying there's a majority that cares about them.

25:41But I think they're part of the reason we're in this mess. We like to talk about the media. We talk about Republicans is this nation didn't care enough about those crimes in order to make a clear final decision on Donald Trump. And so how do you just think about like stepping back from what we're going to put on the Democrats or on the media? Yeah. Like as someone who is in the content minds every single day, like how do you think about that fundamental disconnect?

26:08Brian Tyler Cohen:That's in large part like the impetus for the book. I think I think that there is a continued insistence on thinking that you need to compromise with those people. And these are people who don't want to be compromised with and would not reciprocate when they have power and when we ask them to compromise. And so for the people who have no empathy, who don't care what happens to immigrants in this country, who want to vilify people in the LGBT community, the people who are so depraved and as such get so much of a spotlight in this country, in our media ecosystem, online, I think that the goal then is to get into office and not say, how do we give everybody on that side who's doing those things a seat at the table?

26:51Brian Tyler Cohen:is to say, look, for lack of a better term, is to say, fuck that, let's just do what we're going to do and not water down our morals and our values and what we want to see done in deference to a political party and a movement that wants to see you killed. And so I think in that sense, in that sense, you go in and you don't say, let's get 50%. You say, let's wield power like we're actually going to get something done. And, you know, the difference between Republican governance and Democratic governance is like Republicans' platonic ideal of governance is, you know, you have Trump that decides that elections are only valid if Republicans win.

27:32Brian Tyler Cohen:It's cutting all the health care that they can. It's privatizing Social Security. It is heaping money onto fossil fuel companies. It's denying the existence of climate change. It's refusing to raise any wages for any workers forever. And they do it. And when Democrats get in office, it's, okay, how can we change laws so that we can get buy-in from Republicans? If I'm not mistaken, and you can speak on this better, there was a lot of deference when Obama got elected to how to make the ACA, for example, more palatable for Republicans, and he made changes to it, and then none of them voted for it.

28:08Brian Tyler Cohen:And so I think that's instructive in saying instead of seeking compromise and being the only party seeking compromise, go in and start wielding power in very much the same way that Republicans do, but do it for virtuous reasons, not for self-enrichment, not for vanity projects, but to help people. So, yeah. Yeah, on the Obamacare front, there was a long process between the Democratic and Republican chair of one of the Senate committees that did come to nothing. But in the end, the challenge with that process slowed it down. But in the end, Obamacare was weakened by Democrats. It was weakened by Joe Lieberman, who, and actually, Joe Lieberman is often blamed for the removal of the public option.

28:57And he is, but that was more like a murder on the Orient Express situation where, like, he, like, sort of nine people did it. Nine people killed it. And they were pretty thrilled that Joe Lieberman became the face of it. But what Joe Lieberman really personally killed, which is a bugaboo of mine that I bring up too frequently, given it is he's dead and we're alive, is he killed the Medicare buy-in for people below retirement age, which would have allowed the people that have to buy the most expensive insurance. How many people here are approaching Medicare age and would have fucking loved to buy into Medicare a few years early?

29:33See? See these hands? Like that hurt everybody because that would have made insurance for everybody cheaper. It would have made life better for retirees or people that are approaching Medicare age and it would have made insurance cheaper for everybody else. Democrats killed that, which goes to a broader point that you're making. So I'm taking what you're saying, and I hear you. I have a theory, you know, whatever, about what it looks like for a Republican Party that rationalizes in some way. And what it looks like is you have to beat them. You beat them. When Mitt Romney loses, it's Marco Rubio leading an effort to create a more cosmopolitan, diverse, pro-immigration GOP.

30:14It's one of the reasons he didn't make it very far in that primary because he didn't understand the kind of simmering rage going on in the Republican base. But regardless, their take on losing to Obama twice was, and failing to win the popular vote so many times, was we need to figure out a new way to broaden our coalition. Then Trump wins and says, we don't have to do that. You know, he's sort of like, forget everything you thought. we can be the worst version of ourselves. We don't have to do that. So you have to beat the Republicans that are so cynical. There are true believers in Trump, but what is his coalition?

30:47It's a mix of true believers and people that have forgotten what it is to be a moral and righteous person, not listening closely enough in church, whatever it is. There's a whole collection of reasons why people make deals with the devil. A lot of great books about it. You should see the Odyssey. It's been going on for a long time. You don't treat your neighbor like you would want to be treated? Oh no, there's a cyclops, that kind of thing.

31:12I just came from the Odyssey. But I have less of a, so you beat those people enough, the craven ones will moderate because they want power and the less craven ones will be a bit more sheepish for a while. Fascism is a demon in every heart. You fight it every 60 years. I understand that. What I understand less is not the diehards on either side, but this big group of people that determine the outcome of every single election who just are cynical. They are not paying close attention to the news. The news is not as accessible to them because it used to come to you passively. Now you must actively seek it.

31:49The degradations that we are watching are quieter and less less salient in their lives. How do we begin building what is, I think, at root, what led us here, which is a culture that just doesn't think enough, care enough, talk enough about basic democratic and moral virtues?

32:10Brian Tyler Cohen:I think in large part, that will come from a government that seeks to deliver on the things that it promised to do. You know, I think, you know, I think that is the difficult part. I mean, that is why we see the disillusionment that we see right now. I mean, people told Democrats that they wanted it in the lead up to 2024. I think, for example, the Biden plan to lower drug prices is a good example of this because it's a great idea. Obviously, the whole world, the whole industrialized world does it. We don't. We were finally going to be able to do it. We find out that it is 10 drugs. And if I'm not mistaken, it was going to be implemented 100 years into the future.

32:56Yeah, no, it was going to be a beautiful, drugs are going to be so affordable after Haley's Comet goes by.

33:03Brian Tyler Cohen:And well, well-meaning, well-intentioned, absolutely. And, and I do think, you know, it is sad that in large part, a lot of the accomplishments of the Biden era, which, which were great are going to be forgotten because they've been rolled back. But, but there was disillusionment as the result of that because this is what Democrats do. It is like the plodding bureaucratic implementation where it always seems to be done scheduled for a time when the president or the party in power will be out of office, setting up the opposition party to take all of the credit for what the previous party has done, but also done on such a small scale that it's almost impossible to feel it.

33:44Brian Tyler Cohen:Meanwhile, if Trump is able to take a shit on the toilet in the morning, he'll send you out like a$17 check and he'll put his face and his signature on it. So I think the disparity there is so great between how one party takes credit for its accomplishments and how the other party takes credit for really not accomplishing much at all. So I think that that can be instructive. But as I was saying, there is great disillusionment as the result of a failure to deliver meaningful change. And now there's disillusionment again with the right because of their refusal to deliver on meaningful change because the Trump administration just wants to heap money, power, influence, and resources onto themselves and their donors and their families.

34:24Brian Tyler Cohen:And so I think if we are in a position where, again, we get that second bite of the apple, we use it to show people that if you implement these reforms in a real meaningful way, then that's half of the battle. That does the work for you in terms of making sure that people vote for you again and recognize the importance of government. I actually think that it is the The inability, even the Trump administration's failure to deliver kind of inures to their benefit because people become disaffected in politics, disaffected in outcomes and lose their faith that government can work. And there's only one party that advocates for government to be shrunk, and that's the Republicans.

35:04Brian Tyler Cohen:So in a weird kind of perverse way, the Republicans failing people kind of benefits, redounds to the benefit of the Republican Party because people lose full faith in government that it could ever work. And that's in Democrats and Republicans. So I think we have a vested interest in this rare moment that we will have, and I think it will happen, to make sure that we actually deliver so that we don't have this vacuum of civic participation, a vacuum in which autocracy thrives, because there's only one party that wants to embrace autocracy, and it's not the left. No Lie is brought to you by Factor.

35:39Brian Tyler Cohen:Now, I know that we've all been there where you're exhausted and starving and probably hangry. You go into the fridge and you can and should cook a healthy meal, but you don't have it in you, so you just opt for the quick junk food instead. For me, eating healthy isn't a willpower problem, it's a setup problem. Until I found Factor. Factor solves your setup problem with fully prepared meals designed by dieticians and crafted by chefs delivered right to your door. With Factor, I'm hitting my nutrition goals this season without the planning, grocery runs, or cooking. Factor has been perfect for me with their Muscle Pro Collection, which is great for after workouts, but they have meals built around whatever your goal is, whether that's weight loss, overall nutrition, more protein, or GLP-1 support.

36:21Brian Tyler Cohen:Every meal is crafted with functional ingredients. There's lean proteins, colorful veggies, whole foods, and healthy fats. Factor bans more than 175 ingredients. There's no artificial colors or sweeteners, no high fructose corn syrup, no refined seed oils, just nutrient-dense foods. It's fresh and never frozen. There are over 100 rotating weekly meals, including globally inspired flavors like Mediterranean and Asian, so there's always something new that you can look forward to. And you can now try the newly launched ready-to-eat salads with vibrant ingredients like elote corn and miso edamame, plus more than 70 add-ons to round out your nutrition, from green juices to peanut butter energy bites, all of which is ready in two minutes.

37:01Brian Tyler Cohen:Factor shops, preps, cooks, and delivers straight to your door so that you have more time for everything that you love. If you don't have the time to cook, you absolutely cannot go wrong with Factor, my go-to for prepared meals. Head to factormeals.com slash BTC50OFF and use code BTC50OFF to get 50 % off and free daily greens per box with new subscription only while supplies last until 9-27-26. See website for more details. I think about when I was a speechwriter and the level of attention that went into the words that the president uses. And we would work on a speech with a policy team, and you had a lot of confidence that those policymakers were not betting on the outcome.

37:49Among other strengths. Not the policymakers, but have you checked the teleprompter technicians? I'm also curious. I didn't dig into it because when I was in the White House, The teleprompter operators were White House military officers. It was through that. I wonder if that has changed under Trump, that he has sort of his guy do it. I think it's the guy who did the pool. Oh, it's the guy that... Yeah, that's right. Yeah, green water and teleprompter solutions.

38:20Brian Tyler Cohen:The problem with the teleprompter is there was a 350-foot gash. Right, that's right. That's right. Or 351-foot gashes. but you would work on these speeches with the smartest and best policy people then it would go through a research process and they would check every word and the lawyers would look at it and the political people would look at it and legislative affairs would look at it and go through round and round and round and it was annoying. Can I butt in and ask you a question here? What was the best joke that you ever wrote for the president? Oh, you know, it's funny, I don't it doesn't seem fit my personality but I don't really remember to take credit.

39:00But I do remember one that we cut. There's a lot of jokes we cut. Other than Pokemon Go to the Polls. Pokemon Go to the Polls was for Hillary. And again, I did not write that, but believe it was a great line.

39:16So I remember I was traveling with President Obama and he had to go to a fundraiser with Whoopi Goldberg that was going to take place after Sister Act the musical. So all these big donors were going to watch Sister Act the musical, and they were going to hear from President Obama. And I was on the trip doing a bunch of economic speech. It was sort of a trip that was somewhat political and then also had official parts to it. But he saw me, he said, oh, do you have a joke for me? And I, forgetting myself, I just like, well, let's pitch. I'm a comedy writer, I'll pitch. Should have just said, let me think about that, sir.

39:51Nope, I just opened my big stupid fucking mouth.

39:56You know, I've gone far, but man, a lot of things I flinch about walking down the street. You know, you have those things that you flinch about walking down the street. That's the price of being me. I have a lot of them. But so I said, now that you've seen Sister Act, again, just going to address the elephant in the room. I'm a Jewish guy, the president of the United States, first African-American president in American history. And I said, now that you've seen Sister Act, I have my brother act. It sucks. brutal, right? Brutal thing to say out loud. Fuck. Bad. Stupid. I confess. I say it. I reveal this to you.

40:37I know. He looks at me like...

40:47Oh, and you haven't disappeared. You still seem to think you belong here. and he said no uh think of something else and so then i i full body sweat sweat through my suit completely just wet just a wet jew wandering around

41:09everyone's eating chilling because the president's like and i'm freaking out and so finally i need something that's gonna kill that it's gonna like it's gotta work it's gotta work and so So I was like, well, covent, you know, what dad of teenagers, convent, all right, I got it. And so the joke I gave him was, I have it, sir. All right, here we go. And he looked at me like, this, you better fucking, a lot of people want to sit in the chair you're on and I'll forget you. I said, I'm so glad I could be here with all of you to see Sister Act the Musical. It's a a wonderful opportunity for all of us to be together to raise money.

41:45Also, I'm doing research on the convent I want to send Sasha and Malia after high school. I would say the politics of that joke are iffy at best, but it's right in the fucking strike zone for a dad of teenage women, you know? And so he gave me a fist bump. He went out there, he did the joke, and I redeemed myself. And so that's that story. But to the serious point, those processes are annoying. They are invisible, but they're important. And they're important because they are from an institutional, they respect that the president's words have meaning and that it may be slow and stodgy, a bit technical, a bit lawyerly, but a society in which people respect that is a society that maybe moves slowly, but it moves well.

42:32And I struggle with the balance. I know, Brian, you're not advocating that we do what Donald Trump does. But at the same time, it is easy to say we have to learn the lesson of Trump and not be so bogged down by the rules when part of what we're trying to do is not just beat them in a game, but prove that the game is great. Right. Like we're trying to win. They're cheating. You know, they're they're double dribbling. I don't know. But we're trying to say, no, like basketball is not just we're not just going to win this game. We're going to make you remember how much you love basketball. And so how do you think about that?

43:06Brian Tyler Cohen:I think about that in terms of, look, we have those institutions in place and look at the position that we're in. And so clearly something isn't working. And I think it's okay to both have respect for the institution that is government while also reworking the processes that prevent government from actually delivering. And so I think that that's what we need to look for. I mean, it's okay to not have blind adherence to the filibuster if it means that we can actually deliver on climate, on health care, on the minimum wage, on all of the things that are actually preventing us from doing those things right now.

43:47Brian Tyler Cohen:There feels like there was a moment, you know, I know that everybody remembers the Kyrsten Sinema, you know, her and I think it was one other person. who mansion yes refusal to eliminate the filibuster and like we would have the freedom to vote act right now which first of all bans partisan gerrymandering nationwide so we wouldn't be in this race to the bottom uh to redraw the maps it makes election day a national holiday uh it would it would um deliver on so many of the reforms that we need to make sure the foundations of government actually work and we don't have that and now we're watching the voting rights act get gutted.

44:27Brian Tyler Cohen:We're watching every black representative in the South get drawn out of their seats. We're watching voter suppression bills take path. We're watching the administration officials refuse to rule out the prospect of ICE appearing at the polls. We're watching Donald Trump try to ban mail-in voting, try and usher through the Freedom to Vote Act, which would basically amount to a federal takeover of state-run elections. And so that's with the system in place. And so Obviously, I understand how, in theory, it makes sense to say we need these institutions in place as they are, but the institutions are in place in practice and look at the position that we find ourselves in.

45:08Yeah, I think that's right. Also, there's something else that I think underlies a lot of this, which is, yes, it's about these specific places where we can make changes. But it's also, I think, and I think that's part of the reason people are so receptive to this, is you kind of want Democrats that just have a fire in their belly. Like there has been a decadence in how Democrats approach using power, in part, I think, because of success. Right. I think one reason we've seen this rising, forget the like the MAGA base, but kind of intellectual right wing authoritarianism take hold is because they were sick of losing.

45:46right? They view it as a group. Look, I don't think it does a lot when American Airlines makes their symbol a rainbow over pride, right? But they felt as though they lost for a very long time. And we won elections. We lost elections. They took the Supreme Court. But gay marriage is legal. The social welfare state Obamacare is in place. They felt that they were losing for a long time. And so when they took power, there was a fire in their belly. and I think there's something with Democrats where it's like whether it's wanting to hold hearings on crypto scams in the next Congress or taking power and being like we have 100 days to get a bunch of stuff done that people will feel yes it's about changing rules but it's a kind of like a mode of being that we look for ways to describe in policy but in reality we know it when we see it And then when you have people like Janet Mills or Chuck Schumer or Hakeem Jeffries or some of these more establishment figures, and they're trying to figure out how to connect with the base and they're looking for specific ways to do it, at root, I think there's some feeling of like, why aren't you guys, forget the strategy, why aren't you so angry you can't stop yourself?

47:02Like, why aren't you so upset and enthusiastic and engaged in this that like that you is the hearing on on what the Trump crimes doesn't pull? Well, I don't give a fuck. We got to get to the bottom of this. Right. Like, that's the thing I think is sometimes missing in a deeper way.

47:18Brian Tyler Cohen:And by the way, on that point, I know that people talk about like the brand of the Democratic Party. I don't think that the solution to that is taking the existing slate of people who, I don't know, maybe it's because they have D.C. brain rot, and their kids go to school with the Republicans' kids and they work out at the same Senate gym, that they don't really feel that urgency. They're certainly wealthy enough that they're going to be protected from the impacts of all of this stuff. but I don't think that the solution here is just to kind of teach an old dog new tricks. I think the solution is for those people in large part to make way for a new generation of politicians who are younger, who are more dynamic, more tech savvy, who are more progressive and can actually communicate with people in a way that people appreciate and can relate to and finally, you know, who consume information in a way that those people grew up consuming information and not trying to stick a tiny microphone in Chuck Schumer's hand, hoping that, like, that will fix all of our problems.

48:29Chuck Schumer here, fam. Do you see that Chuck Schumer farted? Can I tell you something? I mean this sincerely. First of all, did you see that? He farted while giving a speech about Iran. and this is seen as embarrassing. I actually fundamentally don't understand that. Everybody farts. And it's a funny part of our culture that if you fart in the wrong place at the wrong time, humiliation is if like, what? Everybody poops. You guys don't know, but Love It has just been... Ripping it. Ripping it up here. No, I understand where the embarrassment and shame comes from, I guess, on some level. But I feel like Schumer used to be the guy that was at the gas station every Sunday to do a press conference.

49:09That was his thing. He was relentless when he was first in the Senate in the House. And I feel like I want a Senate majority leader that calls a press conference based around the fart and saying we need to talk about the real gas crisis. And I know that sounds like a joke, but I'm not joking. And I know I'm wrong because I know what I just said is stupid, but is it?

49:38Brian Tyler Cohen:Brian, you brought up... Did you see Zoran Mamdani was giving an interview to the New York Times, and he had like a coughing fit in the middle of his interview. And he took a drink of water and said, sorry, I have a bad cold, and this is why we need Medicare for all. And so like, that is how you stay relentlessly on message. Good for him. What's so funny is, you know that if Schumer farts, the whole world's like, that goober. Mamdani farts, it's like, is farting the new cool thing?

50:09Brian Tyler Cohen:everybody's farting these days if farting is cool consider me miles davis guys get your heads out of the gutter it's a book event brian you brought up the way people are consuming information i often lovingly refer to you as youtube's best boy you're in the content trenches you you are trying to figure out how to get good information to more people mediated by algorithms that are based around engagement, endorphins. How, first of all, are you okay? And then second of all, what are some of the lessons you take away from what you've been doing by building this huge audience on YouTube? So I think in terms of like the mental health implications, what I do to keep myself okay is, uh, five milligrams of Lexapro, 25 milligrams of Xanax, and then a relentless stream of weed.

51:06Brian Tyler Cohen:Wow. Okay. And that's just breakfast. Yeah. And then he clocks in. Yeah. Then I clock in. Um, no, I mean, I, I appreciate you asking that. And, uh, and you know, that is the, I used to be really good at compartmentalizing. And I remember when I first started doing this work in 2017. I started doing video content full-time at the end of 2018, beginning of 2019. And it used to be easier. And I think slowly, as this stuff got more and more kind of entrenched and real and started impacting people's lives, and it's impossible to look at everything from the immigrant detention centers that were happening in Trump 1.0 to the ice killings that are happening now in Trump 2.0, it's impossible to look at that stuff and not have it slowly chip away at you and your mental health.

52:03Brian Tyler Cohen:And so, you know, that part is difficult. But in a way, you know, I think it underscores the need for human connection in a big way. You know, the reason that my, my podcast is, um, is hosted with, with you guys at Crooked Media. And, uh, and the reason that I did that, it actually wasn't, it wasn't like the, the, the most, it wasn't the, the best business deal for me, but, but for me to be able to have community with, with John, John and Tommy and the whole team at Crooked Media, that meant a lot to me. And so I wanted that community and that was far more important than finding the best deal for my podcast and so signed with Crooked Media and now I get to spend time at their studio and spend time with these guys who in large part inform how I do my politics and who I listened to before I even had a show.

53:03Brian Tyler Cohen:I mean, you and the guys were a huge inspiration in terms of my own politics. So first off, thank you for doing that. But it does underscore the need for community. And that's why I'm so grateful that everybody left their house in the middle of the summer, in the middle of the day, at the same time as the World Cup, to be here and partake in this conversation. I think especially as people go online more and more, it almost feels like that's a replacement for real community, but it's not. And, and I think that, um, a lot of the extremism that we're seeing right now is because, um, you know, that's what obviously proliferates online, but if there was more in-person community, people wouldn't feel the need to, to supplement, uh, supplement this stuff by, by engaging in, you know, online hate speech or whatever it may be.

54:00Brian Tyler Cohen:So I think, you know, that's, I think, uh, what, even for somebody who works online 12 to 14 hours a day, um, my goal is to try and make sure that I can, you know, if not seek out that in-person community, at least force myself to get it and plan stuff so that I'm forced to be pulled away from my computer. And I have, you know, a group of my friends here that are at the show and, you know, tell them to come over even though I'm working and it forces me out of my room. And I think that kind of stuff is important. But what do you think? Like, how have you contended with being immersed in a space that is not only, you know, toxic, but almost engineered to be toxic.

54:41Brian Tyler Cohen:I mean, the algorithms are not there to amplify moderation or measured responses. They're there to amplify or even give an instructive an incentive for you to be as, as extreme as you can. Absolutely. I, so my, what I do is I step outside of it and I have like a sort of not an ironclad rule but a rule of thumb which is I am always reading something that is out of the present in one way or another it can be a novel it can be science fiction it can be a history book but I am always consuming in my time outside of Crooked something where I'm really invested in a story that's from another era and I find that very, very helpful, and I think more people should be doing that.

55:32Yay, books! Yeah, books. Books. And so, reading a lot of history, and it's just helpful to be in history. The other part of it, too, is I think about it in terms of what we do at Crooked. When we started, we've almost been around 10 years now, which is wild, but you didn't get me a thing. but when we sure when we started when we started I we worked on a mission statement for what we were trying to do and and we really defined ourselves against the mainstream media in the sense that we felt like there's a lot of great journalism but also a lot of pretty empty analysis that treated politics like a game and there were a lot of people that were hungry for people that talked about politics more honestly more open about their point of view and that was yes serious and understood the stakes, but didn't take itself as seriously.

56:25And we defined ourselves against what we saw, the punditry on television to a large degree. And now all these years later, I feel much more like because the stakes have become about the future of democracy, it is much more about figuring out ways to build a coalition and get everybody to understand their role in it. And that does actually include a lot of mainstream journalism. That part of is, and I do think a lot of mainstream outlets have come to see their role as they are not refs in a war between Democrats and Republicans, but in fact are players on the side of democracy. And I think reminding people that is very important.

57:02Brian Tyler Cohen:What happens to a free press if you slide into autocracy where there is no deference to a free press? Right. Like you're not a ref, or if you are a ref, did you notice that you were just punched in the face by one of the other players? But then also modeling what it looks like to talk about politics and think about politics when what the internet wants you to do is become the worst version of yourself. That is what the internet wants. It wants you to become the absolute worst version of you, not a different person. And I think that's part of what makes it so tantalizing to hate people on the internet because it's not, not them.

57:39It's just the worst version of them. And I don't think it is a coincidence that Donald Trump's great skill is making the worst thing about people more true about them. And the internet's great skill is making you the worst version of yourself, that those things happened at the same time. And so my way of thinking about it is remembering, is trying my best and I do not succeed. To keep that in mind and understand that, yes, we're covering politics and we're trying to give people good information and we're trying to help people get a spotlight on the most important races. But also I think part of it is trying, especially for a younger generation of pundits or thinkers or influencers or creators, whatever, showing them that there's a way to, that long-term, there's a, I'm sorry, a siren song that you need to fight against.

58:30And that is something that gives me a little bit of a sense of purpose. And also, like the Hulk, I'm angry all the time. The whole time. I'm angry right now.

58:42all the time

58:44Brian Tyler Cohen:and the weed helps the weed does help, yes I think that's right I think in large part it's helpful to that's all I got on that that's all I got on the mental health stuff I'm looking forward to a point where I think I view my role as not taking not taking time off, which is not great, not taking time off until we've achieved some semblance of a solution to what we're doing. Because we need you on that wall. Right. You sleep soundly in your beds, protected by Brian on the content wall. He uses words like honor. These words are a joke to you. yeah that's what i got on the mental health front so but but onto the actual like what like how do you think about trying to sustainably give people good information when one aspect of what it means to get information to more people like if you go to some of the more kind of like i don't know the the the cloud chasing kind of algorithm chasing outlets If you go to their website right now, it's like Trump on the verge of total collapse.

1:00:04The end is near for Trump. Can you believe it? It's over, over and over and over again. And that, you know, hitting people with that cattle prod juices the numbers. But over time, you're trying to build something that people can trust.

1:00:16Brian Tyler Cohen:So in large part, I mean, I think there's also a separation between the packaging that gets people in the door and the content that they actually consume. There's no doubt that with the way that the internet is constructed right now, you need to have a certain degree of saucy packaging that the thumbnail or the title has to be enough to lure people in because you're going up against other content that does it. And so you can be as measured as you want, but you do it to your own detriment because somebody else who has better packaging, more inflammatory packaging is going to win. And so I think you have to both be savvy in this digital media environment to know how to get people to tune into your content.

1:01:01Brian Tyler Cohen:But then I think that the onus is on the content creator. The onus is on you and me to make sure that once people are in the door that you give them stuff worth staying for. And that's the hard part. You know, I think that in large part for some people it's enough to just do one or the other, but it's not. I mean, that's how to really, I think, succeed in this media environment, which is a little bit like behind the curtains, behind the scenes for what you have to do to make sure that people tune in. The other part of this, too, is you said you're working 12 to 14 hours a day and you're not taking vacation, which is roughly the schedule, the routine of a clothing maker in early 20th century lower Manhattan.

1:01:51How do you, like, long term, you know, we go through these cycles, right? First, things were being kind of rolled up into these giant media conglomerates. Now we have Substack. We have people like you working independently. Do you see, like, is that a good outcome? Would you like to see some of the, like, is it a better style of gathering news and media if a lot of these sub stackers all worked together for one outlet and then it was they had editors that worked on it together and published it pretty frequently but it had oversight and a kind of a

1:02:24Brian Tyler Cohen:collective view kind of a thing yeah so like we it's it's funny because like i mean you just advocate for a return to like a newsroom and then we can do that everybody works together it'd be brilliant i think we should do it um look i i will it go in cycles i don't know i i learned to stop trying to predict what the future would look like. Interestingly enough, when I first started political content online, my goal was to be on TV. I wanted my own show, probably on MSNBC, because I don't know where else I would be able to go. And that was the goal. And, you know, I did my YouTube videos at the foot of my bed and, you know, to an audience of tens and, you know, 20s of people and just kept my head down, kept doing the work, and eventually it reached critical mass.

1:03:16Brian Tyler Cohen:But that was my goal initially. And then the media landscape changed so much. And we start seeing all of these MS hosts and CNN hosts or CNN expats and MS expats and legacy media expats desperately trying to get onto YouTube. I mean, hell, we see existing MSNBC or MSNOW shows and hosts and anchors try to get onto YouTube and into the digital media space. And so it felt kind of weird because, you know, those pictures where there's a hurricane and everybody's trying to drive out of Florida and then there's like one lunatic who's driving in. I felt like the lunatic. And so I had a contributor contract with MS for 18 months.

1:03:56Brian Tyler Cohen:And when it came time to re-up, I was just like, it just doesn't feel like it's the right thing to do. I also don't like having having a boss or anybody to tell me what to say specifically the word allegedly a hundred times I would get like, I would submit my scripts for, I would do some digital content for them. And you have to submit your scripts to make sure they pass legal muster. Cause now it's not just, you're not just some punk kid on your YouTube, you're representing MSNBC and it would come back with like the word allegedly put into, put into these scripts 150 times. Good lawyering. That's Good learning.

1:04:28Brian Tyler Cohen:So, you know, eventually I bailed on that and I have nothing but love and respect for the folks who I think do great work at MS. But, you know, I don't know what the media landscape is going to look like a few years from now. I don't know if we're going to have a consortium of independent media creators who get together and basically do what you do, which is reconstitute legacy media, but it's independent legacy media. So, you know, I've learned that this whole landscape moves so quickly that it's impossible to predict what anything is going to look like. I've already seen the transition from long-form content to primarily short-form content.

1:05:10Brian Tyler Cohen:And, you know, people are watching more on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube shorts than even the eight-minute videos that I was doing on average on YouTube, much less the hour and a half videos that were big a few years ago when podcasting and RSS feeds were all the rage. So things are moving so quickly. I'm not sure what things are going to look like. I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. I just think eventually we'll get to the point where it's like, you know, people do not have the attention span for these YouTube shorts. So we've introduced a new format. It's just you get one syllable.

1:05:45It's just a guttural. It's a guttural scream. And you just scroll through and like, you know, in the same way, like right now on TikTok, you'll watch like a recipe and then a joke and then a murder. You'll get like happy scream. And that's just one video. Yeah, there's one video. It's a happy scream, sad scream. Oh, a lot of angry screams today. Something must have happened. Yeah, I don't know what's going to happen. And I think sometimes, again, like I, I struggle with it because it's how do we get like underneath all of this? Right. It's like it is obviously not good for us that we have are addling our attention spans.

1:06:23It's so seductive. It's so enjoyable. TikTok is a it's a dream. It's a pleasure to watch. It can eat a whole, you know, an hour without blinking.

1:06:32Brian Tyler Cohen:But it's on that point of like of like I actually I mean, there is there is absolutely. like a biological component to consuming this content. And the time that I realize it is, um, if I, if I do smoke weed and I start to go through Instagram reels or YouTube shorts or Tik TOK, I find myself incapable of, of putting my phone down. And so I realized like a lot of the reason I'm able to put my phone down during the day is I have some discipline. But when you, when you have, when you have these, um, you know, if, if you have something that's going to inhibit, your discipline, like, you know, just smoking, then you realize, like, at a biological level, this stuff makes you tune in.

1:07:13Brian Tyler Cohen:And it's hard to put it away. It's a little bit like when you've had an edible, and you're in a really gluttonous mindset. Let's say you'll have, like, a bag of chips and Oreos in front of you. And you'll have an Oreo, and then you'll have a potato chip. And you'll be like, wait, I have an idea.

1:07:35And then you'll put two together and you'll be like, that is excellent. You've done it again. What about two chips, two Oreos or two chips, one Oreo with more frosting, whatever. And you're trying to build some imaginary perfect bite that's going to be the ultimate satiating bite of food. But you're only hungrier once you've had the next one. And I sometimes feel with those, like, when are you going to stop scrolling? It's like after you've gotten to that perfect thing, that perfect feeling, but of course there's no such thing. And so you just sort of eventually kind of like put the phone down and like squeeze your eyes shut and then wonder why your dreams are weird.

1:08:14Brian Tyler Cohen:Does anybody else have the child timers on their apps that they just click ignore for today over and over on a daily basis? Just me? I have. well well that must explain all of the lexapro yeah and yeah no great shout out shout out lexapro so before we go before we wrap up this wonderful conversation obviously it's a dark time i joke about being angry all the time i guess uh but like i think a lot of people do feel anxiety and a kind of sense of uncertainty about whether any of this effort is worth it? How do you keep yourself motivated? Like, how do you keep yourself believing that there is value to what we're doing?

1:09:05Brian Tyler Cohen:I think in large part in this moment, there are a million reasons to check out. And, you know, it's not just despair. It's engineered despair. I mean, Steve Bannon says that his strategy is to flood the zone with shit. And that is to make us feel like we are completely helpless, like the only option here is to throw up our hands. And there's no way that we would be able to contend with the behemoth that is not only the federal government, but a federal government unmoored by any, again, norms, traditions, laws, the constitution, you name it. But I think even in spite of that, whether we have moments like the No King protest or moments like this right here, where in the middle of the summer, you can get a group of people together who are still willing to fight for the future of this country.

1:09:56Brian Tyler Cohen:I think that is in large part that even in front of the worst of conditions, in what I think might be one of the darkest moments in our history, the fact that we can have so many people still willing to fight for what's right, I think that is in large part what gives me hope in this moment.

1:10:20So, you want to take it? Yeah, I often feel too like how do we get people to kind of clock back in and re-engage even, like I think because of a lot of our audience, they've been knocking on doors, they've been doing this for a very long time. And part of it to me, you know, often we'll go on the road and we'll be doing a show in, you know, Madison, Wisconsin, or we'll be in whatever, Minneapolis, and somebody will have a question and I'll say, oh, where are you from? And they'll be like, oh, I'm from Ohio. And the audience will boo the ever-loving fuck out of that person. No, there's nothing wrong with Ohio.

1:11:03There's nothing wrong with Ohio. Because what I'm getting at is there's a nice agent in every heart. Uh, Oh, you don't like to hear it. You don't like to hear it, but that we are like, we're, we are as a culture, we've like removed a lot of the moral language and a lot of the values language. And maybe it is because I'm, I try to step out of this a lot to try to kind of get my head into something a little bit more longer everlasting, like part of, I think what makes this moment hard is we all, what is, I think compels people to be involved is a, it's a moral, it's a moral compulsion. It's a, it's a values thing.

1:11:43That's, that's the reason you're here. And I've come to appreciate the value that came from inspiration in politics when I was never motivated by that, as I've said, I'm motivated by rage. But that if Trump appeals to the worst in people, like inspiration calls on people to make the better parts of themselves more true. And those aspects have won out just as many times as they have lost. And when things feel dark, I remember that, that at root, we are in a battle against people that are appealing to their worst instincts, but people have good instincts too, even people who feel we may feel have been lost.

1:12:19And as long as we don't forget that and put that in the context of a long history in which we have made a lot of progress, I think in the end we'll be okay. Brian Tyler Cohen everybody you should buy the book because honestly one way in which we beat right wing media is by proving that there is an audience for progressive news, progressive coverage that putting this book up on the bestseller list against the right wing books and all the people that bought Joe Biden's book I think would be a helpful thing to do, sorry to bring it down at the end Brian Tyler Cohen.

1:12:57Brian Tyler Cohen:Thank you. I want to thank a big thank you to the team at Writer's Block, including Andrea. A big thank you to John Lovett and his whole team at Crooked Media. And a huge thank you to everybody here, again, who took time out of your busy schedules to be here and to be part of the fight. We are going to win midterms. We're going to get the House and the Senate. And it's in large part owed to this kind of participation. So thank you. Thanks again to John Lovett. That's it for this episode. Talk to you on Sunday. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen. Produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesley, and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera.

1:13:35Brian Tyler Cohen:If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five-star rating and a review. And as always, you can find me at Brian Tyler Cohen on all of my other channels, or you can go to briantylercohen.com to learn more.