Major update on Supreme Court EXPANSION

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1:00Brian Tyler Cohen:So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash BTC and use the code BTC at checkout for 15 % off. So we've got a bit of a different kind of podcast today. I'm actually going to do a clip of my interview with Gavin Newsom from his podcast, and I'm going to link the full episode in the show notes because there was one section in particular that garnered a lot of news. So I went on his show to discuss my new book, The Day After, which is centered around Democrats wielding power in a post-Trump world. We had a great conversation about everything from climate to the economy to Medicare for All to holding Trump and company accountable for their criminality.

1:37Brian Tyler Cohen:But one issue on which there's been some disagreement between me and Gavin Newsom in the past is this idea of Supreme Court expansion. And that's also a major focus of my new book. And that's where things got interesting. So here's that section of our conversation.

1:54Gavin Newsom:So you open up, you talk about blank checks and balances, well said. And then this notion of the untouchables. And it has been the untouchables. It's according. You, I've had this conversation. I'm kind of mixed on this. I'm open argument. I really am on this. Not an ideologue, but I have instinctual concerns about reforming the court in terms of its size. Good people argue differently. You do as well. But we agree on term limits. We agree on ethic and code of conduct reforms. You lay them out in here. You lay out the why from Alito to the Kavanaugh, the shadow docket we can get to. Obviously, what's going on with, you know, who's the other one?

2:30Gavin Newsom:Alito and, you know, the insurrectionist fag.

2:32Brian Tyler Cohen:I mean, Jesus, what the hell is going on with the Supreme Court? So let's talk about this. So my argument here is that we need court expansion. It makes sense not just from a moral perspective, which I'll get to in a moment, but also there is historical precedent for it. the number of federal court circuits have always been commensurate with the number of Supreme Court seats. We've had six in the past, I think in 1837. That's raised to nine. But now we have 13 federal court circuits and we still have nine Supreme Court justices. But from, so that's the historical argument for this. It would make sense.

3:10Brian Tyler Cohen:It's also not in the constitution that we should have nine. It's also, you know, not so sacrosanct that Republicans haven't changed that number in modern times. Again, they kept the court at eight seats because they wanted to keep Merrick Garland off the court. That was almost a year. So we have very recent precedent for Republicans changing the composition of the court to suit them politically. Now, imagine we're fortunate enough to have a Democratic president, Democratic House, Democratic Senate. We get some legislation passed, which already unto itself is a Herculean task. Now we have this rogue branch of government, which is, you know, not, look, you look at Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas.

3:51Brian Tyler Cohen:These are not, you know, these, you know, apolitical, neutral arbiters of the law. This is Jim Jordan in a suit, right? In a robe, I should say. Jim Jordan with a jacket on. Yeah, wearing something.

4:07Gavin Newsom:I assume, I mean, that would be a hell of a thing to see.

4:10Brian Tyler Cohen:So, you know, with the composition of the court as it stands right now, they have a permanent veto over any and all legislation that Democrats could put forward. And so we do all of this work and yet opt to leave in place just by virtue of our respect for norms and precedent, a 6-3 conservative court that can and absolutely will strike down anything that doesn't comport with their political ideology. I mean, this is a court that has just struck down the entirety of the Voting Rights Act. This is a court that will, in deference to their party, create provisions of the Constitution out of whole cloth, like this idea that the president can act with impunity as it relates to criminal prosecution, that will ignore the plaintext of the Constitution, like Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, that prevents someone from running for federal office again if they've engaged in or given aid or comfort to those who've engaged in insurrection.

5:09Brian Tyler Cohen:Donald Trump did that. That's not just me saying it. It is the Colorado Supreme Court, for example. And so they make it up as they go. And so while we're making this whole argument about not just sitting on our laurels and hoping that just by virtue of the arc of the moral universe bending toward justice through osmosis or whatever it is, that it's just going to happen good. Like the arc of the moral universe doesn't just bend toward justice. You have to push it. And so I think this is a perfect example of where you push it. Leaving intact this court just out of deference to stasis or the status quo gives them a permission structure to strike down anything that all of these people have worked to get by showing up and voting Democrats into office and, you know, you campaign on climate change and health care and a just economy and everything that gets people out of bed, everything that makes people believe in politics, but you know that you're just leaving intact voluntarily a veto for the other side with people who you know are not neutral arbiters of the law, people like Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas.

6:26Brian Tyler Cohen:And so if we're adhering to this vision of recognizing that we have one shot here to really deliver for people, like Republicans fumbled the ball. 2024 was an incredible reversal of not just political alignments, but culture. I mean, like when I was in college, regardless of geography, regardless of socioeconomic status, you were for Obama if you were a young person. Like it would be impossible to, it would be social suicide if you're like, oh no, I'm a John McCain guy. I'm a George W. Bush guy.

7:05Gavin Newsom:Yeah, yeah.

7:05Brian Tyler Cohen:And -

7:06Gavin Newsom:Yeah, we're not in the cool club.

7:08Brian Tyler Cohen:No. And to watch Democrats have fumbled it to the point where it actually became more, like became cooler, became more culturally beneficial to be a Republican is a coup for them. and for them to fumble the ball like they're doing right now, we have an opportunity that we shouldn't frankly have. If they weren't so fucking incompetent, they wouldn't have given us this opportunity. But we have this moment right here. It's a brief moment that we can take advantage of. And if we use that moment by thinking that we can garner all this support and get like our one last shot only to put it in the hands of a Supreme Court that we know is going to strike anything and everything down, then we are not actually committed to the outcomes that we claim to be committed to.

7:57Gavin Newsom:So you're talking about expanding to 13, and it's interesting. I mean, it is a great historical, and people forget it. The last time it was done, again, was under Lincoln. There's no constitutional constraints on this.

8:09Brian Tyler Cohen:I would argue last time it was done, it was done under Mitch McConnell.

8:12Gavin Newsom:I love the Merrick Garland point. That's an interesting and powerful point.

8:15Brian Tyler Cohen:Supreme Court went down from nine to eight for a year. They changed the number of justices.

8:19Gavin Newsom:He did not screw around. So nor can we. Now let's get to the other two component parts. Code of conduct, which is all the stuff with Thomas is off the charts.

8:28Brian Tyler Cohen:Before we go there, I need to know if I convinced you.

8:31Gavin Newsom:Before we get to the code of conduct. I'm going to conclude with one. Because I'm going to then fill in additional. We're going to create. We're adding more ingredients to the overall reform here. So your code of conduct, that just seems to be a no damn brainer. Right? Code of ethics. Absolutely. More transparency, et cetera. that this notion of term limits um eight years you call for yeah others have said 18 why eight um i think you know look i'm i'm open to i'm open oh interesting now you're open argument you know i think you might say more like i think we can both uh it's a give and take here i think

9:06Brian Tyler Cohen:um you know just with the way that that these presidential administrations uh work i think it's It takes a lot of the eventfulness of Supreme Court retirements out of the equation if they're done with more frequency.

9:25Gavin Newsom:And you expect one or two retirements in the next days, weeks, even before the publication of your book?

9:34Brian Tyler Cohen:You know, I am holding my breath. every day that we don't have the announcement of, of one of these Supreme court justices stepping down. It's not even something that, that I often want to talk about because I don't even want to put it in the zeitgeist. Um, we can, we can keep it in for the, for the pod, but like, but like, you know, look, I am, I am holding my breath. We have God willing, uh, Democrats take control of the Senate in 2026. And then it's not something that we have to worry about. Uh, Unless, of course, there is some - They move ASAP and they go. Unless, correct. And frankly, they could.

10:11Brian Tyler Cohen:And I would be surprised if they didn't. But we'll see how committed they are to trying to do that. Again, they have a majority. And so I'm hoping and praying that it doesn't happen. But that's, again, another - That should be another impetus to take serious reforms. because otherwise we're looking at a Supreme Court that is not just 6-3, but 6-3 where we have a bunch of 40-year-old justices.

10:38Gavin Newsom:So here's my prediction. You will be on this book tour, and this will be the most focused part of your conversation with folks this chapter.

10:46Brian Tyler Cohen:I've been asked what is the first thing that the left needs to do when it takes power again. And I have said the first thing that needs to happen is court reform and court expansion.

10:56Gavin Newsom:Yeah, look, you're getting me closer to your point of view. And you challenged me. I know we were talking, I was on your pod down in LA a few months ago, and this notion of 13 and then just looking at the district courts as that framework sort of anchor the old school, the ember of a traditional, you know.

11:14Brian Tyler Cohen:I mean, look, for a guy who recognized the urgency of the moment with Prop 50, and in fact, the only democratic state to have successfully redrawn its maps ahead of 2026, that is what I think is the natural evolution for somebody like you. I'm with you.

11:35Gavin Newsom:I'm done winning arguments. We got to win. And we got to consolidate power. And again, this book is about power. The subheadline, again, how to wait. I mean, this is it. wield power. Without it, it's all bullshit. I mean, it's academic bullshit.

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13:42Brian Tyler Cohen:See website for more details. So that was a section of my conversation with Gavin Newsom. Here's where I think things get a little bit meta. So the new book, The Day After, is literally about pushing Democrats to fight harder on a range of topics. In a conversation about the book, seeking to get Democrats to fight harder, I got to make the case to a very prominent Democrat who may even be the Democratic nominee for president one day about Supreme Court expansion to the point that Newsom says, quote, I'm with you. I'm done winning arguments. We got to win. So if that's not a testament to the potency of the book, I don't know what is.

14:17Brian Tyler Cohen:I mean, that is the lesson of the book playing out in real time. In an interview about a book seeking to get Democrats to fight, it sounds like I got buy in from one very prominent Democrat to fight. In other words, the blueprint works. So look, I'm going to ask here that if you think that this was an effective strategy, that you please grab a copy of this book, which is available right now for pre-order. Here's my case to you. The more books that I can sell, the more attention it gets, obviously. The more attention it gets, the more I'll be able to make the case to more Democrats about the importance of wielding power.

14:47Brian Tyler Cohen:You already saw in just one interview what it looks like when I can make the case to one politician, the governor of California. I want to be able to do that with everyone. Because frankly, we don't have the luxury of having these debates once we're back in power. Because when that moment arrives, and it will arrive, we need to move fast. We should spend this moment making the case so that when we win the election, we use that time to actually wield power, to pass legislation, to fix our broken healthcare system, to usher in a just economy, to take strong action on climate, to pass voting rights legislation and shore up our democracy, to hold criminals to account for their corruption, and yes, to expand the court.

15:25Brian Tyler Cohen:So I'm going to put a link to pre-order the day after in the show notes of this episode, or you can go to briantylercohen.com slash book. There you can grab the hardcover or the audio version. And importantly, at the same link is tickets to my book tour. So if you live in or around New York, DC or LA, please come see me mid-July in person. I'll be in DC July 14th, New York July 15th and LA July 18th. Those tickets are selling fast, so please grab yours while they're still available. I'm going to wrap up here with another segment from my interview with Gavin Newsom from his podcast, which is called This is Gavin Newsom.