Supreme Court returns Jim Crow to America

18:43Gavin Newsom:It was just looking at some new data about Florida and the fact they're starting to lose folks because of the cost of living and housing affordability or lack thereof, particularly as it relates to homeowner insurance as well. That said, we are very, very proud in this state to have just passed some of the most significant zoning reforms in not only our state's history, but we think are models for the rest of the country. It is all about zoning reform. It's all about build baby bill, not drill baby drill. It is about addressing those thickets, about time value of these investments and money dealing with nimbyism.

19:20Gavin Newsom:And let me give you a proof point. When I got here, there were 70 ,000 housing units constructed. This last year, 111 ,000. It's 59 % improvement. We've also reduced the entitlement time by 56%, which is a big damn deal. And so in both counts, we're moving in the right direction. We finally have the right housing policies. Now it's all about application implementation. And I continue to say it. Localism is determinative. Local government at the end of their state vision is realized locally. And the biggest impediment to action, what stands in the way, has been local government. And we have a new local housing accountability unit.

20:00Gavin Newsom:We're suing cities, Huntington Beach infamously. We put 46 others on notice. We have strategies to fast track the litigation in terms of ultimately adjudicating the merits of our assertions around the lack of cooperation on housing. And so it's a much more muscular approach. It's about a liberalism that builds. And that has to be front and center in terms of the Democratic Party's mindset and our policymaking. We have to own this space. We've been so damn consumed by process. This paralysis has gotten in the way of the kind of progress and a kind of proof point that we need that Democrats can govern in an effective and efficient way to address these tectonic challenges, particularly for young people, of affordability.

20:45Gavin Newsom:It is a supply demand problem, and we need to build more dam housing.

20:50Brian Tyler Cohen:Is there buy-in from the legislature?

20:52Gavin Newsom:Yeah, it was tough. Canada, because everyone's, you know, and it's not an indictment of any individual. It's an indictment of the system, which is just all these interest groups. Yeah. And so there's paralysis because people want, you know, so often we're accommodating. We're accommodating cities. We're accommodating counties. We're accommodating particular interest groups across the spectrum of issues, environmental to labor, maybe our own instincts around localism and just having neighborhoods decide for themselves. And so, again, everybody, we're all complicit. Society becomes how we behave.

21:24Gavin Newsom:This has happened on our watch over the last half century. It's hardly new. What's shifted is we've been more aggressive and every year we keep coming back more aggressively still. But last year was a breakthrough in California. And I got to say, I got to give Ezra Klein a lot of credit. His book on abundance, an abundance, not scarcity mindset. And it allowed me, honestly, that conversation carried with it this kind of weight, that I did something I'd never done before and no other governor had. I literally was going to veto the budget. I put the housing bills in the budget. It's not how the sausage is made.

22:01Gavin Newsom:Because I said, enough, I can't keep dealing with this delay and denial. And we were able to push through. And what's amazing, final point, is the mindset is shifted now. Once a mine is stretched, never goes back to the original. Now people are like, what else do we have? Now how do we deal with the cost of construction? Modular, prefab, deal with productivity gains, address the issue of impact fees. Huge issue that has to be addressed. We have a lot of new ideas on that in a couple of weeks. We'll be introducing in the budget as well. But this is, I just feel more optimism looking out the window.

22:35Gavin Newsom:But obviously in the rear view, my God, this has been the original sin in California.

22:40Brian Tyler Cohen:So I want to talk one more topic on California before we move on to national politics again. But as it relates to the entertainment industry, this is something that I'm up your ass about every time we speak. But what would you like to see, given the fact that this budget will pass, there will be a new governor of California, what would be your parting words in terms of getting more industry jobs back into this state? Because, you know, they haven't just left California. They have largely left the United States, going to places like the United Kingdom, going to places like Canada, to Bulgaria has a thriving film industry.

23:17Brian Tyler Cohen:And then even within the U.S., I mean, Netflix just built a huge soundstage in New Jersey where I had initially come from. And so what needs to be done to lure those jobs back here?

23:28Gavin Newsom:Well, number one, the president's talk to a good game hasn't delivered.

23:32Brian Tyler Cohen:In terms of a federal tax credit?

23:33Gavin Newsom:Yeah, well, you originally talked about tariffs, which is just, you know, dumb as he wants to be. I mean, just stuck on stupid. But he's finally starting to talk, at least privately. I've had a number of conversations with folks that say he's opening more and more, is more open to the idea of some federal tax credits. So that's foundational in terms of keeping American jobs and allowing this industry to thrive in the United States. And then from a state-by-state competitiveness frame, we have to deal, again, with all these thickets as it relates to just the mundane, which is parking and traffic issues, the cost of overtime, and permitting regulatory stuff at the local level.

24:10Gavin Newsom:And then, yes, the states have to step up with their tax credit program. We more than doubled it last year. We've seen the fruits of that. It's literally taking shape. We're announcing almost on a weekly basis, new production, new economic opportunities, new economic development. But for the next governor, the issue of above the line has to come into it as it relates to the opportunity to expand those tax credits to get some of the larger films done. But if we can get a federal tax credit, I think we can start taking with love and respect to my friends in the UK, we can start taking those jobs back from the United Kingdom, take them back from other parts of the globe that have enjoyed the lack of investment in this space.

24:46Gavin Newsom:But look, you can't, we rested on our laurels. So typical, right? The world we invented is now competing against us. And so if you want to do well in the future, you got to invest in it. And we made the mistake over that the last few decades, but we're making up for that now. We have still new ideas that we'll be proposing in the next few weeks and the next governor administration, I think need to continue to double down on this.

25:09Brian Tyler Cohen:So I want to switch gears here. About a week ago, there was the White House Correspondents' Dinner. The shooting took place within five minutes. Trump took the opportunity to both use it as a justification to build his ballroom and to attack Jimmy Kimmel for somehow inciting violence by making a joke about how Trump is old. Old, yeah. And 25 years older than Melania. And so somehow that is an incitement to violence. Both of those obviously absurd on their face. Can I have your reaction to him using this kind of as an opportunity to really push forward his pet projects, which are silencing comedians who commit the cardinal sin, the crime of criticizing him, and also trying to push forward his ballroom so that he can have his let them eat cake moment?

25:57Gavin Newsom:Well, a hell of a way to bring the country together, as his press secretary was condemning Democrats for their rhetoric. Here's the president of the United States who has an asymmetry. It's not a partisan point. It's an institutional point. He's the president of the United States and used it to not only exploit the ballroom and to direct Brendan Carr to try to suppress, continue to suppress free speech more than that in a moment, but also to indict Comey for a beach photo. That was the aftermath of that moment. this evil act at the White House Correspondents Dinner that needs to be condemned. And by the way, violence, rhetoric, condemned on all sides.

26:40Gavin Newsom:I'm not going to all sides, both sides. But you know what? It goes in both directions, which means the solution to this also goes with accountability in both directions. But the asymmetry of the president, his ability to set the tone for the nation, he contrasts that to what he did shortly after, to your point. But here's the thing that I hope people paying attention to. What's what Brendan Carr is doing at the FCC? Because the henchman on this is Carr, who was sent out to do what he did prior, which was to celebrate and subtly, indirectly, encourage Nexstar and Sinclair to shut down Kimmel for a period of time.

27:26Gavin Newsom:Carr publicly celebrated that. Carr then, in return for that, has just signed off on a waiver for Nextstar in a merger, which is the largest broadcast merger in history, that he approved with a waiver that takes a 39 % TV household threshold statute and allows for upwards now, if this merger goes forward, Nextstar to have 80 % penetration in the market. That was the return on that original investment of suppressing free speech and free expression with Kimmel. They're going after comedians because comedians are trusted. They're shutting down Colbert. They attack Maher. They attack Stewart. They attack Kimmel.

28:11Gavin Newsom:But they're attacking free speech. And it's what's not said. It's production segments that are shut down. That's happening. I don't think it. I know it. when I announced the lawsuit against this merger, one of the major local TV stations in the Sacramento market refused to air the press conference and to show what we were doing. That suppression is already happening in the United States of America. This is a big damn deal. So we're litigating. We had a good early judicial decision on it. We're not out of the woods. These guys are not screwing around. Brendan Carr is a disgrace in what's happening in the media space in this country is so much bigger than the shiny object of what's going on with Paramount and the Warner Brothers merger.

28:55Gavin Newsom:We have to focus on what's happening at the local level, Sinclair, and focus on what's happening next star.

29:00Brian Tyler Cohen:Do you have confidence that this could be unwound if and when we have a Democratic administration that actually takes antitrust seriously, that's actually willing to push back on the censorship, the consolidation in the media space of these, you know, of right-wing voices, basically?

29:15Gavin Newsom:It's difficult. I mean, it's, you know, The damage is done with Colbert. The damage is being done in real time. Again, there's just segment producers. There's the chill of free speech and free expression. I don't think it. We have to know that comedians aren't going full throttle right now, are throttling back. Complete weaponization of the FCC. It's total corruption. It's not the corruption in Albania and Serbia. It's not the corruption in Saudi Arabia, in Dubai, in the UAE, and the Vietnam and all the golf courses and the deals that we see. It's not the meme coin, the stable coin. It's not the$400 million Qatari jet.

29:52Gavin Newsom:It's not the$100 ,000 watch or the$60 Bible or the sneakers. It's not all that. It's even somewhat more insidious. That's about personal benefit for Trump. This is about structurally and institutionally reducing the fabric of truth and trust and transparency in the United States of America. So I just, I hope we put more emphasis and focus on this. I've been a little bit peeved that people are more outraged by what Carr is doing, not just what Trump is doing on a daily basis, but what Carr is implementing and how he's executing.

30:24Brian Tyler Cohen:On that point, as we talk about media companies, can you give an update? Because I'm sure that a lot of folks don't know this. You have a lawsuit against Fox that's actually moving forward right now. Can you explain what that lawsuit is?

30:36Gavin Newsom:Well, this was a big deal. judge said that there's a reasonable chance that fox knowingly 43 page ruling just a day ago on a defamation lawsuit that i filed about a year ago last june against fox for knowingly lying about a phone call i had with donald trump and doing multiple segments but knowingly lying about it even by my standards with shot fox i was shocked they go after me 24 7 but this even shocked me that they were knowingly willing to spew these lies. And they were heard around the world, literally around the world. They picked up hundreds of different other publications. I got phone calls about this.

31:18Gavin Newsom:People saying, boy, why are you lying about this? And so I filed this. I didn't do it for petulant reasons. I did it because enough. I mean, these guys, the impact they're having in this country, just that, I mean, I refer to them as Pravda. It is Pravda. but they need to be held to account. They didn't learn their lesson from Dominion. We thought they would learn their lesson from Dominion. So now we're in discovery phase. They don't want to be in discovery phase. And this judge said there was enough evidence that it's likely that they knowingly have defamed me and they need to be held to account.

31:56Gavin Newsom:That's not just Trump that can play that game. Again, fight fire with fire, enough. And so I'm pleased this went forward. And, you know, it's not about the money. We said it was about the apology. Said, just apologize. Own up to your lies. And they refused. And so hopefully now it could be about some accountability. And I'm looking forward to Discovery and the transparency to understand how the sausage is made over there.

32:24Brian Tyler Cohen:Well, you know, when Discovery happened in the January 6th, the Dominion lawsuit, we saw emails from all of these Fox executives, Fox hosts, where it was clear that they knew exactly what they were talking about, but it was more important for them to be able to lie to the rubes who watch them, to the marks who watch them, than just to tell them the truth. And so these people, I mean, it would be bad enough if they were just spewing diss and misinformation, but what's worse is that they knew the truth. It was just more important for them to manipulate the people who trusted them, who made the mistake of trusting these people so that they could benefit their political party, their preferred political party.

33:00Gavin Newsom:This should infuriate everyone that watches Fox, how they treat you. This is not about the Fox viewer. Their dismissiveness. To your point, they're just a way of making a quick buck. You know, have another plane, another house in Palm Beach, you know, a whole thing. I mean, this is just bullshit. And it's got to stop. And again, the Brendan Carr, what's happening with that merger, what's happening across the spectrum as it relates to all the things that are happening in the media space consolidation we discussed and some of it getting more attention than the others but you got to be accountable on the air to truth i understand the subjectivity i understand their point of view but you can't knowingly defame someone you can't knowingly lie and if you do and you get caught you need to be held to account in the most important court and that's the court of public opinion.

33:55Brian Tyler Cohen:Last question here on that point. What would you like to see come out of this Fox lawsuit? Like what does success look like for you? What would be the biggest benefit of not just learning what we will learn in Discovery, but of winning this lawsuit?

34:11Gavin Newsom:Respect your viewers. Change. Truth. Trust. Decency. Character. Some of the old values that,

34:19Brian Tyler Cohen:you know, I thought, you know, but you know, you know full well that none of those things

34:22Gavin Newsom:Then it's about stone cold accountability. You pay the price for your lies and defamation. You pay the price for knowingly defaming other people. And you pay a price and you should pay a huge, but they paid a big price,$707 million. Apparently that was drop in the bucket. Chump change. So they need to keep paying that price until they change the way they do business. So I don't know if it's that complicated. I just wanted a simple damn apology. Own up to your lies. They refused. They tried to hide them. They thought for sure they'd get this thrown out. And this judge, in a 43-page thing, said, Hold on, boys and girls.

35:04Gavin Newsom:Save your emails. Lawyer up. And let's get ready for discovery. And we're going to discover a lot more about how Fox is really run and the lies and the mistruths and how it's organized and how it's delivered and weaponized 24-7. And that is a very healthy thing for our democracy.

35:25Brian Tyler Cohen:Perfect place to leave off.

35:27Gavin Newsom:Governor Newsom, I appreciate the time. Good to be back.

35:31Brian Tyler Cohen:No Lie is brought to you by DonorsChoose. Teachers are supporting students in their classrooms every day. But how many schools lack the resources to make sure our kids reach their full potential? And look, I have many teachers in my family, including my grandma, who taught for about 50 years. I myself taught for two years after college. I know how underpaid teachers are, how underfunded education is, and how important it is to funnel dollars into classrooms. DonorsChoose is a national nonprofit that makes it easy for anyone to donate directly to a classroom. You can give any amount, and once the teacher's request meets its fundraising goal, DonorsChoose purchases the supplies and sends them directly to that classroom.

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36:44Brian Tyler Cohen:For a limited time, your gift will be matched to help students and teachers who need our support. Go to donorschoose.org slash Brian Tyler Cohen, all one word, to find a classroom near you and have your gift match today. Donorschoose.org slash Brian Tyler Cohen. I'm joined now by national voting rights correspondent at Mother Jones and the author of the book Minority Rule, Ari Berman. Ari, thanks for joining me again. Hey, Brian, great to talk to you again. So obviously we're talking in the aftermath of the Supreme Court handing down the Calais decision, which guts Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act.

37:16Brian Tyler Cohen:So I think in large part we anticipated this move, But from your vantage as somebody who is a longtime expert on voting rights, on, well, your aptly titled book, Minority Rule, how much of a blinking red light is this for Democrats recognizing that Republicans now have carte blanche to redraw any maps that have black opportunity districts? It's a flashing red light for democracy. It's an emergency for democracy because the Supreme Court not only gutted the Voting Rights Act for the third time, I might add, but they also did it in a way that allows some states a very narrow window to redraw their districts for 2026.

37:58I thought the justices would at least have the decency to wait until this cycle of redistricting is over. But as always, the Roberts court showed how nakedly partisan it is. So they not just completely gutted the Voting Rights Act, they actually gave some states the opportunity to redraw their maps this cycle. And the larger context of this is Democrats had basically fought Republicans to a draw in the gerrymandering arms race that Trump launched. Now, if all of these Southern states, or at least some of them, are able to redraw and And Democrats can't. That's going to put Democrats at a disadvantage heading into 2026.

38:35They might be able to overcome it. Obviously, if there's a wave election, they will be able to overcome it. But this decision just shows how nakedly partisan the Roberts Court has been. They basically say you shouldn't change election laws in the middle of an election. Then they completely rewrite the Voting Rights Act in the middle of an election season.

38:54Brian Tyler Cohen:So what states are you looking at right now? Obviously, in the immediate aftermath of this move, Louisiana has already called to cancel their primaries so that they can redraw their maps. But what other states are you looking at right now? I'm looking at states where the primaries haven't happened yet. So Louisiana is one of them. South Carolina is another. Tennessee is another. Obviously, Florida already redrew. But they feel like maybe they're on firmer ground now with this decision. I'm not actually sure it's true. So I think maybe you're talking about four to five seats potentially shifting.

39:26We'll see what happens. The Supreme Court's opinion was not a model of clarity. And so it made it clear that drawing new districts to try to advantage minority voters is unconstitutional. Leave aside the fact they said it was legal in Alabama two years ago, and that's why Louisiana did this. So they're already contradicting their own rulings from two years ago. But it's also not clear if states can just rush in and dismantle districts that have existed for decades, like in Mississippi, like in South Carolina, like in Tennessee. So this issue is headed before the courts again, certainly the lower court and potentially the Supreme Court before the election.

40:02Brian Tyler Cohen:So if you're the Democrats and you're watching this take place right now, what are the first moves that the left makes in response to this? Well, the left is going to have to have a plan to redraw in 2028. It's going to be hard for them to redraw in any more states in 2026. But certainly in 2028, you're going to have to have the blue states that didn't do it for one reason or another. There are some states that couldn't do it under their state constitutions, like New York and Colorado, that could redraw in 2028. There's other states that could have done it, like Illinois, like Maryland, that chose not to.

40:36I think the pressure is going to be on every single blue state to do this because if every red state redraws to not just pick up seats for partisan advantage but to wipe away gains of advances for minority voters in the civil rights movement, then it's really a moral of imperative for blue states to respond to level the playing field. In the immediate though, I think that Democrats are going to have to organize in some of these states. Obviously, if you dismantle districts that are held by black members of Congress, black voters still have to go somewhere. They can't just be completely wiped off the map.

41:10And so that means that there has to be efforts to contest these seats in southern states. And there's some evidence already that the gerrymandered maps that were drawn in places like Texas and places like Florida might not be as secure as Republicans thought they would be, and that there's also possibilities for pickup opportunities in some red states like Tennessee, for example. And so Democrats need a long term strategy to try to counteract what Republicans are doing. But in the short term, they also just need to take advantage of a political climate in which Trump and Republicans are unpopular to contest every seat possible, including in the South and expand the map.

41:48Brian Tyler Cohen:So on that point of Democrats taking a long term strategy, I've been thinking about this a lot because, you know, I think from the activist front, we advocate for Democrats to retake control of the House, the Senate, the White House, pass good voting rights legislation. You know, the John R. Lewis Voting Rights Act, the Freedom to Vote Act that was H.R.1 during the Biden era. Even if these laws get passed, we now see that there is a rogue branch of government that's always going to strike it down. This Supreme Court will not let a Voting Rights Act, whether it comes from 1965 or 2029 stand, at least under the ideological breakdown that they have right now.

42:30Brian Tyler Cohen:And so what is the solution longer term than even just retaking full control of government, recognizing that it's always just going to be a battle back and forth where Democrats can pass voting rights legislation and then Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito and the rest of these right wingers in the Supreme Court will strike it down. And so nothing is permanent in that sense. Yeah, that's why reforming the Supreme Court has to be the number one priority of the progressive movement. Otherwise, basically every progressive idea is going to die at the court. And the court has elevated itself over the other branches of government.

43:06I mean, they just completely, in the Kalei decision, they completely overruled the 1982 reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act that was passed overwhelmingly by the Congress. And normally the courts were supposed to defer to the Congress. And they have basically said, when it comes to these kind of issues, we are the final word. In some cases, they say Congress can legislate. It's not even clear in this case Congress can legislate because basically they're saying we're the only people that can enforce the 15th Amendment, the only people that can understand the 15th Amendment. goes without saying they completely turned the 15th Amendment on its head by basically saying that a law that was meant to give black men the right to vote and to get rid of the vestiges of slavery is now something where you can find districts that were drawn to help the descendants of slavery that's unconstitutional.

43:57So they've completely turned the 15th Amendment on its head. They've completely overruled the will of Congress. And that's why I think it's not enough to ban partisan gerrymandering or make it easier to vote, if you don't change the composition of the Supreme Court, which I believe was illegally constructed in terms of how they did it, in terms of stealing seats and other hardball measures they used, then really all of your other priorities are not going to ultimately survive.

44:22Brian Tyler Cohen:Do you have confidence that this Democratic Party or what new iteration comes, you know, in 2026 and 2028 will have the spine to do that? because this is not a Democratic Party that's known for upending norms, for making uncomfortable the institutions of government. I mean, so often we see a blind deference to the institutions as they stand. I mean, the filibuster has this sacrosanctity. The parliamentarian has this sacrosanctity when it comes to Democrats who are largely institutionalists. But the reality is, I mean, you and I both just explained it, Like no voting rights legislation, really no progressive legislation will stand with the Supreme Court as it stands right now.

45:05Brian Tyler Cohen:And so everything as it relates to the court is foundational. But that's a big swing for a Democratic Party that will often let the smallest roadblock stand in their way when it comes to, you know, either upending some norm versus actually getting legislation through by any means necessary, a la Mitch McConnell. So what do you think about, you know, the stomach of this Democratic Party as we move forward to actually get some of this stuff done? Well, I think they have to have the stomach for it. I think the people that have the stomach for it are going to merge as the leaders of the party, particularly in 2028.

45:36There's no way there's going to be a Democratic nominee for president who doesn't support strongly reforming the Supreme Court. This is not going to be Biden kind of flirting with Supreme Court reform. They're going to have to tackle this issue head on and understand that the Supreme Court is the greatest impediment to progressive politics in America right now. And so I think that the circumstances are changing in the Democratic Party. They understand that the court is going to just keep going further and further and further in terms of what they're going to do on the Voting Rights Act. I mean, just think about this, Brian.

46:11The Supreme Court gutted the heart of the Voting Rights Act in 2013 by ruling that states with long history of discrimination no longer had to approve their voting changes with the federal government. But they said, oh, we're not touching that other part of the Voting Rights Act, Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act. Then, eight years later, they severely weakened Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act and made it very hard to strike down discriminatory voting laws. Then, five years after that, they gut the Voting Rights Act again and basically say that you can no longer police racial gerrymandering and redistricting, that you can no longer protect decades of advances for minority voters.

46:45So they're not stopping. The point is they're not moderating. Yeah, they moderate on some cases where the Federalist Society opposes things that Trump does, like on tariffs. They're not even taking an anti-conservative position. They're just taking a position where there are some factions of the Republican Party that don't like what Trump is doing. But when it comes to things like the advances of the civil rights movement, progressive policy is more broadly. This is a court that is extremely hostile to basically the civil rights revolution of the 1960s. And I don't know how you legislate against that other than changing the composition of the court itself.

47:22Brian Tyler Cohen:And it makes sense to do so. I mean, the first Supreme Court had six justices. There were six federal court circuits. After that, the court grew to seven. when there was another court circuit that was added. So it has always been in line with the number of federal court circuits, but it stopped at nine. And now we have 13 federal court circuits. And so it would make sense even unto itself. Like if you want to defer to norms, this is actually the norm that the number of Supreme Court seats is compliant with the number of federal court circuits. Yeah, and of course, there are certain things that are built into the Constitution in terms of the Supreme Court, But there's lots of things that you could do that are different with the Supreme Court.

48:04There's also courts that function other ways. I think we like to think that the Supreme Court, every court functions like the Supreme Court. There are lots of state Supreme Courts that, for example, justices are elected. They have term limits. They have strict ethics codes. They're beholden to the public in ways that this current Supreme Court is not. And I mean, you had a situation where the majority decision in Clay was written by Samuel Alito. A night before that decision, he was at a Trump state dinner. This is a guy whose wife flew an insurrection flag, okay? I mean, there are a lot of red flags here in terms of just the actions of Alito, not to mention how Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Barrett were put on the court in the first place, right?

48:52I mean, you have one justice who occupies a stolen seat, another justice who had a FBI investigation swept totally under the rug, another justice who was confirmed eight days before the election when they blocked someone eight months before the election. I mean, so there's so many irregularities in terms of democratic norms that this court has been constituted. Not to mention then it's a product of a lot of anti-democratic actions. And then through its opinions, it then deepens the crisis in democracy by doing things like gutting the Voting Rights Act.

49:32Brian Tyler Cohen:Ari, your book is called Minority Rule. It was it was an excellent read. But as we look at the moment that we're in right now, it's hard to feel like that exact phenomenon isn't being entrenched when you have a Republican Party that despite its unpopularity, despite the fact that they're actually losing elections when when when voters have the ability to vote directly on those representatives or on those candidates, we are seeing a consolidation of power on on the right. and frankly as we move forward a lot of things have to go perfectly for the left like the left has to get full control of government to be able to push anything forward the left has to have a big enough margin that the filibuster is eliminated then the left has to have the stomach to do something that they've not had the stomach to do which is to actually expand the court to get it done technically speaking so that they can actually see this thing through and then they have to pass this legislation, past these processes to expand the court.

50:29Brian Tyler Cohen:So everything has to go perfectly. What level of confidence do you have, you know, as somebody who's been talking about the issue of minority rule for so long that in this subsequent Congress, if Democrats do have full control, they can get it done and kind of stem this this tidal wave of anti-democratic authoritarian moves by a Republican Party that relies on entrenching minority rule? Well, there's going to have to be a lot of pressure on them to do so. And just I take the example of the gerrymandering arms race. When Texas redrew its districts, based on pressure from Trump, there was the expectation that Republicans would just go state by state by state and do this.

51:08And Democrats wouldn't be able to fight back because they were too invested in good government or they were too hamstrung by laws in their states. And the fact that you had California fight back, you had Virginia fight back, I mean, that gave Democrats a spine. And things that seemed impossible suddenly became possible. And then we need that same kind of thing here. It's not just about winning elections and the Democratic Party is in a much better position to win elections in 2026 than they were before, but then it's following through on winning those elections. And that's why I think we need a popular movement to do this.

51:41And Supreme Court reform has to go beyond just the circle of good government types in Washington, D.C. It has to be a mobilizing issue for people that whatever issue you care about, it is threatened by this current iteration of the Supreme Court. I do think that is happening more and more, though. Dobbs really was a breaking point for a lot of people. There have been a series of decisions since Dobbs. I think the VRA decision has really crystallized the threat to democracy that we're facing. And so I think more and more people care about reforming the Supreme Court. More and more people have a negative opinion of the Supreme Court.

52:19More and more people realize how nakedly partisan this court is. And I believe that Democratic activists, the Democratic base, people in general just have to keep pushing Democratic leaders on this. Very rarely does change happen from the top in the Democratic Party. It happens with people pushing. And this is an issue that people are going to have to continue to push on.

52:41Brian Tyler Cohen:Well, look, you have been a champion for this issue for years and years and years before it was, you know, the thing that we're talking about right now. So highly recommend for everybody who's watching and listening. If you haven't yet had the opportunity to grab a copy of Minority Rule, I'm going to put that link right here on the screen and also in the post description. If you're listening on the podcast, I'm going to throw it into the show notes. Ari, as always, thanks for the work you're doing. Thanks for taking the time today. Always great to talk to you, Brian. Keep up the great work as well.

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54:16Brian Tyler Cohen:You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10 % off at betterhelp.com slash nolie. That's betterhelp.com slash no lie. I'm joined now by All Rise News' Adam Klassfeld. Adam, we have major news that's going to impact the entire country as it relates to mifepristone, which is the abortion drug, which had been available by mail. Can you explain what this ruling is? The Fifth Circuit, one of the most conservative judicial circuits in the country, an all-republican panel essentially blocked regulations by the Biden administration that made Mifepristone available to anyone by mail through telemedicine.

55:00It essentially, in pausing a regulation, reverts to the old regulation where you had to arrive in person. And to give a little bit of perspective here, Mifepristone is used in two-thirds of abortions in the United States. So this is a ruling with widespread nationwide ramifications. It's not only a ruling that in a case this particular case was brought by Louisiana, but it doesn't affect Louisiana only. It affects the whole country.

55:31Brian Tyler Cohen:So is there an impact on states, for example, where abortion is still legal? Does this just impact the states where abortion is illegal? I'm just trying to like suss out who's going to be most impacted here. Or is it everybody? And even if you're trying to order Mifepristone via mail in California, you'll be impacted. That's exactly right, Brian. It affects the entire country because it reimposes the restrictions that the medication needs to be picked up in person. So if you're in a rural county in California and it's not so easy to go somewhere in person or if you're a victim of domestic violence and you – it's not easy to go someplace where you have to go face-to-face with a doctor and you don't have the option as a result of this ruling to go by mail.

56:25Brian Tyler Cohen:So can you explain why, if this is a ruling that's contained within the Fifth Circuit, it has nationwide implications? Because this is a ruling that's attacking the underlying regulation. You had essentially the state of Louisiana filing a lawsuit in the wake of the Dobbs ruling saying that Louisiana, for folks who don't know, has one of the most restrictive abortion bans that have been on the books since Roe v. Wade was overturned. So they sued, the state sued, to block access to mythopristone by mail, saying that that was being used to circumvent their ban. And this was a three-judge panel. As I said earlier, it was a three-judge panel of all Republican appointees, two Trump appointees, written by a Trump appointee, and it was a unanimous ruling by that court.

57:19Brian Tyler Cohen:Now, how quickly do you anticipate there is going to be an appeal up to the U.S. Supreme Court? And the follow up to that, is there anything that you can read from the tea leaves that might suggest where the U.S. Supreme Court's position is on this issue, other than the fact that this is a 6-3, ideologically aligned with the Republican Party bench full of justices who sit on the court? Well, I would expect this is going to be appealed quite quickly just because of the fact that as we went over this as a nationwide impact. It's a major ruling that's going to affect the entire country. But as you said, this is a 6-3 ideologically aligned court.

58:01We've seen that in very recent rulings. In the Mifepristone case in particular, we do have to remember it wasn't that long ago that there was a 9-0 ruling of the Supreme Court upholding access to Mifepristone. But that particular legal challenge was thrown out on standing grounds. It was a ruling that was authored by Brett Kavanaugh. So it was a recent ruling where we could see, well, the court did preserve in that case access to the drug. But this is a very different set of facts. This is the state bringing the case. In the other Supreme Court case, you had certain anti-abortion-oriented doctors challenging it, and they didn't have standing to go up against the FDA.

58:50It could be a very difficult – I wouldn't bet on the courts to protect access to this drug right now, but we'll see what happens. It's hard to predict.

59:03Brian Tyler Cohen:Adam, what kind of an impact is this going to have on Americans who are seeking to exercise some autonomy over their reproductive rights? This is going to have a huge effect. This is a major victory for anti-abortion movement in the United States because it is a blow against access to a drug used in two-thirds of abortions in the United States. And that percentage went up dramatically after the overturning of Roe versus Wade. So the impacts are going to be deep. If you live in a rural area, as I said a little bit earlier, if you're the victim of domestic violence and telemedicine is a way that you can avoid detection in an abusive relationship, this is a type of thing where this ruling could have a dramatic impact.

59:53Brian Tyler Cohen:Is there any way to circumvent this ruling if, for example, you are a legislator or a governor in a blue state who recognizes the importance of making sure that women have access to this type of medication? You know, one of the things that's interesting to note here is that I believe the Republicans understand that this is a very unpopular policy to restrict access to this drug. This was something, and there's signs of it even in this litigation. Right now, you have Trump's FDA doing a review of mifepristone, and undoubtedly this review by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s Department of Health and Human Services, and within that the FDA, is going to come up with some excuse to put some restrictions on this medication.

1:00:49But it's interesting because in this case, the Trump Department of Justice wanted to pause this litigation. We are in a midterm season. And it might be worth noting that perhaps the administration is slow walking this, trying to kick the can down the road because they understand that this is a political loser. Correct.

1:01:15Brian Tyler Cohen:And I mean, we have seen this on top of other political losers as of late. We have a failure to release the Epstein files despite repeated calls by virtually everybody who makes up this administration in the campaign. We have seen an engagement in, you know, a degree of foreign adventurism that we haven't seen in quite a long time, including an ongoing war in Iran. And this is at the hands of people who beat their chest about no new foreign wars, no new wars in the Middle East. We also were told that this administration was going to be America first. Meanwhile, we've seen Medicaid cut from 17 million Americans.

1:01:50Brian Tyler Cohen:We've seen ACA subsidies cut from 24 million Americans. We've seen food assistance cut to the tune of$186 billion. Thanks to Trump's trade war, the cost of everything has surged. We have gas now at its highest price in years, virtually at its highest price ever. And this administration keeps piling on this stuff onto Americans, which would be bad enough unto itself, but even worse, given the fact that they came into office under this pretext that they would be looking out for Americans. They would promote this America first agenda. And we've got an administration full of people who can't stop raising prices, can't stop taking health care away from people, can't stop taking food assistance away from people, can't stop siding with this criminal cabal of pedophiles.

1:02:33Brian Tyler Cohen:And this now would be just the latest, iteration, the latest blow on top of all of that, where yet again, they're engaging in this political loser where they attack reproductive rights and abortion rights. Absolutely. I mean, this could wind up being a dog that caught the car, that after succeeding in overturning Roe versus Wade, you have certain parts of the country that have supported Trump demanding policies that are vastly unpopular. And it seems like this is happening now. And I think that this case and the fact that this ruling has been put out by one of the most conservative circuits in the country by a two-Trump appointee, all-conservative appointee panel, it really ratchets up the stakes.

1:03:24It casts things into stark relief. And people can see that potentially, at least on this issue, yes, this is going to be appealed very likely to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will have to issue a ruling, but the court might not particularly save access to this drug that is relied upon by people across the country. And so it shows the limits of that and the importance of political engagement and engagement writ large. All right.

1:03:58Brian Tyler Cohen:One last question here, Adam. I want to take like a 30 ,000 foot view of this. Let's say the Democrats are able to retake the White House in the 2020 election, take office in 2029. We have a Democratic FDA administrator in place. Is there a world where this could be undone? This action could be rolled back if we have someone in that position who recognizes the importance of mail-in mifepristone or abortion medication? Absolutely, Brian. I mean, if in that world that you're describing, we could have codified protections for abortion access. In that world that you're describing, one could have a different FDA there who are conducting studies based on sound science that put together regulations that's based on that science rather than this pre-ordained conclusion.

1:04:47So that's a very different world. It's a very different set of facts and it's less dependent on what happens on a certain court on a certain day.

1:04:57Brian Tyler Cohen:All right. Well, we will, of course, stay on top of this issue. For those who are watching right now, if you're looking to support fearless independent media, there is no better outlet than All Rise News. That is Adams Outlet covers all of these legal ins and outs on a daily basis on his own dime, often flying around the country. So if you're looking again to support an independent media outlet that you can trust 100%. There's, again, no better choice than All Rise News. So I'm going to put that link right here on the screen and also in the post description of this video. Adam, as always, thanks so much for the time.

1:05:27Thank you so much, Brian.

1:05:30Brian Tyler Cohen:Thanks again to Gavin Newsom, Ari Berman, and Adam Klassfeld. That's it for this episode. Talk to you on Wednesday. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen. Produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesley, and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five-star rating and a review. And as always, you can find me at BrianTylerCohen on all of my other channels, or you can go to BrianTylerCohen.com to learn more.