Trump drops clue on next steps amid Epstein fallout

26:02Kara Swisher:Thanks a lot.

26:03Brian Tyler Cohen:We have watched as this Epstein situation has kind of bubbled over into the surface. I think that in large part, Trump probably took for granted how seriously a giant faction of his base, especially the online base, took this. And so now I think he thought he can kind of skate through and just kind of avoid dealing with this whole situation altogether. To what extent do you think that this is going to have a lasting impact on his popularity with those people versus, you know, the usual thing I think we expect from Republicans, which is maybe a few days of some consternation, but ultimately everybody comes back home?

26:42Kara Swisher:That's exactly what's going to happen. I mean, the regular Republicans who are just being quizlings, who don't really like what he's doing or don't like a lot of things, but they're fearful of him, never believe this. So it wasn't really their animating factor. So they'll just stay the same. They'll stay cowardly and acquiescent forever, as long as it takes, until he doesn't have power, and then you'll see some differences, which will come. The other ones, the Roseanne Bars, the Alex Jones, the Laura Loomers, that gang, is angry. And they expected a lot more from Kash Patel, especially, and Dan Bongino, who would go on and on about this conspiracy theory.

27:19Kara Swisher:So these are the people that put these people on this almost sugar high of conspiracy theories. And now when they're like, oh, actually, they can't come off of it. Like they're deep in the hole. And so I can see why they're disappointed. as crazy as they may be, they're also disappointed. That said, they never seem to blame Trump for this. They're aiming at Gino and Bondi.

27:41Brian Tyler Cohen:It's Pam Bondi, as if Pam Bondi has shown herself to be like some neutral or independent figure. I mean, all of these people are completely under the thumb of Donald Trump.

27:51Kara Swisher:Right, exactly. I mean, and also she's just been inept. I mean, the ineptitude away from everything by putting these binders out that didn't have anything in them and then saying she had a list because she's such a thirsty person on Fox News. She's got to say something. She needs to shut up. For a lawyer, she talks too much. One of the things she should have been doing was managing expectations here and saying less. And in this case, they just kind of come out with it in a kind of random haphazard way, right? Rather than really preparing their group for, look, we looked into it. This is what it is.

28:26Kara Swisher:Let us show you. Let us walk through this. So it's kind of a ham-handed version of it. I mean, ultimately, I suspect they'll go along with Trump and the crazy ones will nurse anger quietly and it will manifest later in a sort of a giant open sore. And they'll not know where to go because where are they going to go? Once Trump's gone, the Republicans, if they ever maintain, get back control of themselves, will not have this group in there. They don't want them. So we'll see. I feel badly for Roseanne Barr today.

28:58Brian Tyler Cohen:What do you think it says more broadly about the grifter-y nature of somebody like Dan Bongino and Cash Patel, who really predicated their identities on serving this slop to their audiences, and now they are in these unique positions to be able to substantiate the very things that they were saying for years and years and years, and they've come up short. I mean, there was a clip of Kash Patel talking to somebody who works at The Blaze. I can't remember who it was, but this was in December of 2023. And he was saying that Epstein's black book was in the hands of the FBI director. This goes right up to the FBI director.

29:38Brian Tyler Cohen:That's the person who has all the power here. Dude is the FBI director right now.

29:43Kara Swisher:That's their problem. They always do that. They're like, if only someone was in power to do this, like Trump yesterday, with, you know, I would have done Doge differently. I was like, if you were in charge, and he was in charge. Like, this is one of their playbook things. I mean, they've got to be hurting because this is the gang that, first of all, they couldn't shoot straight, essentially, but they also train these people to believe in this deep state mentality. And then when it gets out of control, it gets out of control. I mean, they seem like clods and charlatans. I mean, Dan Bongino's a charlatan, really, in so many ways.

30:15Kara Swisher:He's probably going to have to be arrested next week for that, but he is. We could share a gulag somewhere.

30:20Brian Tyler Cohen:Whatever.

30:20Kara Swisher:I don't know. Whatever. Good luck, Dan. But, you know, I think this is the problem is they predicated their success, online success. Now, if they can spin up another, once they leave here, they'll come up with another nonsensical story. You know, alligators in the toilets and Alcatraz. I don't know. You have to constantly be telling lies and coming up with new lies to leave behind the old lies. And so that's the problem. The thing is, this group, it's like soap opera. They'll take any lie and they'll move on to the next one. You know, we'll see how much they split from Trump. I mean, they're just terrible people.

30:57Kara Swisher:So they will continue to be hypocritical. And calling them out is kind of like saying, oh, look, the sky is blue.

31:04Brian Tyler Cohen:Building on this idea of these people splintering away from Trump, one avenue that they might have is that Elon Musk put forward this idea of starting a third party, and that is the America Party. And so how much political capital do you think Elon has? And I guess the more serious question is his goal is not to, like, launch the third major political party in America. He's come out and said that he wants to just maybe pick off a few house seats. He wants to be a spoiler. He doesn't want to create a party.

31:31Kara Swisher:He wants to be a spoiler. and he's just using that, his money and the name, whatever, to do so. I think the problem is what does it stand for, right? Like if it's sort of libertarian-like kind of thing, there's not much call for that. It's a very small group. If you look at any of the cutting up of the electorate, this is a very small group of people wanting what he wants, but I don't know what he wants. They haven't articulated there's no person it's built around except for him. So what are his stances? Like, I don't know, pro-mecha-Nazi?

32:02Brian Tyler Cohen:and against deficits. I think the hard part for me to reconcile is he did come in. He had full reign of government. He could have done anything. Trump isn't looking into the weeds of what he's doing. So Elon had full control. And so he came in saying that he wants to cut waste, fraud, and abuse. You have the Pentagon, which has failed seven audits, staring you right in the face, but you avoid that to go after USAID, which is one half of 1 % of the budget, and delivers soft power without shooting a single bullet. You've got the CFPB, which helps Americans who've been defrauded by banks. You go after all of these agencies that regulate Elon or have enforcement action over Elon, and you ignore the giant elephant in the room.

32:39Brian Tyler Cohen:And it goes to show that at the end of the day, this was never about waste, fraud, and abuse. This was about helping Elon's bottom line. Yeah, well, you just said it.

32:46Kara Swisher:That's it, that's it. He was going after things that helped him. He was very irritated over regulators, especially during COVID when we were speaking. A little too much. It was a little dramatic, and it was a little over the top. But, you know, he definitely thought that there was no need for regulators. And when he tangled before that with the SEC over some of the statements he made, like it's 420 or whatever. So he's always been sort of like that. And in a lot of ways, he has a point about some of it. Like some of it is onerous. If you've ever opened a small business, you know what it takes to like get all these silly placards you have to put up.

33:20Kara Swisher:And, you know, even Zoran Mandani did a whole thing of$8 halal. And a lot of it was about permitting, right? That was what that... So there is some argument to be made about making government smoother and services better and cheaper. And there is a lot of, I would say, more waste than fraud, I suspect. And not just waste, it's just inefficient. But at the same time, a lot of government, things can't be made efficient the way companies can. And by the way, not every one of his companies is as efficient as could be. They're always seeking more efficiency. Everyone is so surprised by the hypocrisy.

33:53Brian Tyler Cohen:All of these people just want to make money.

33:55Kara Swisher:They're there for the shareholders, which is largely themselves in a lot of ways, or their increasing power or their ability to push back from regulation, which is why you see Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos there. You think they like Trump? I mean, they can say that he's kind of funnier than Biden, but that's a low bar. He is.

34:15Brian Tyler Cohen:But, you know, do you think do you think that Musk and Trump reconcile, given the fact that their that their fates are so intertwined and their and the monetary incentives for them to do so are so high?

34:27Kara Swisher:What's the money? Trump's doing just fine. Grifting all the way away. I suppose he's doubled his net worth in the last like two months. The only thing is, look, Trump could do more harm to Musk than vice versa, clearly around Starlink, around X, around everything about where AI spoils are going, TikTok, like lots of things. That said, he's got a limited time period here. If he loses the midterms, it's over for Trump, right? So he could do, but he could do a lot of harm to Musk in so many, NASA, lots of things. Musk has also an ability to make a mess. What if he's keeping score on the crypto stuff?

35:03Kara Swisher:What he could really, you know, he has means to make the Trump's family especially be very uncomfortable. Who knows if he bought the Epstein files? I don't know. Like, I don't know. Maybe there are files. Maybe there are videos. I'd be surprised if there weren't, given Jeffrey Epstein's behavior. Right. I mean, that's natural. I don't know if there are, but if there are, he could buy them. Right. So the only thing about the Epstein thing is they would have come out by now, wouldn't they have? But maybe not. I don't know. Maybe. Who knows? So I think Musk is crazy enough to do something crazy, right?

35:40Kara Swisher:And he has the means to do so. And so that's a little different than a Michael Cohen or any of the people that have tangled with Trump. This guy is ready, willing, and able to blow up rockets. And so that's where you go. And, you know, when he was fighting with Trump initially, I predicted he would. And then afterwards, he apologized. Everyone's like, oh, he's apologized. The first thing I said is, this is not sticking. This guy is like frigging Vesuvius. There's no only because I listened to him talk about deficits for years. And so I'm like, no, no, this is right at the heart of his problem with the government is the deficits.

36:15Brian Tyler Cohen:But again, like he had the opportunity to actually do something. And he looked out for himself.

36:19Kara Swisher:Did he? did he have the, he was also in the middle of like a knife fight with all the Trump people. Susie Wiles really did a number. I mean, I'm sorry. They always, that's clearly who took them down, took them out. But all of them did, like all of them did. Cause they're all, you know, those kinds of swamp creatures. But, but they, I think sure he could have done something, but he was, it was in his interest not to then. And now it's in his interest to do so. So Elon will do whatever's in his interest to do so. And so he is right about EV credits. He is right about we should be promoting EVs versus fossil fuels.

36:56Kara Swisher:There's a number of things where he's 100 % correct in terms of fiscal responsibility. And it's interesting because he did oppose it, even though it benefits him as a billionaire. So there is a modicum of he actually believes this.

37:10Brian Tyler Cohen:Well, I think he I mean, he opposed that provision if he if he could do what he did back before Trump even took office in December, December of 2024, where he was able to extract that China provision from from the budget bill that was working its way through before Trump was even before Trump was even sworn in. He was able to, you know, put so much pressure on Republicans that they took that provision out. So it's not that he that he's looking to sink the entire bill because he doesn't want a tax cut for himself. He just wants he wants everything. He wants to have his cake and eat it, too. He wants every single provision to benefit him.

37:44Kara Swisher:Speaking of cake, the problem with the bill, and I think it'll be a problem for Democrats messaging, as I just did it really had Kristen Soltis Anderson on as a Republican pollster, is that it's a cheesecake factory of a bill. Which part do you want to hit? It's like it's a it's a dessert topping. It's a floor wax. It's a it's a tax bill. It's a it's a Medicaid reform bill. It's a Medicaid cut bill. Like so there's so much in there. And they pulled a lot out, by the way, the the the the lands they were going to sell and this and that. They'll get back to that, by the way. Yeah. But, you know, it'll be the problem is how to attack it.

38:17Kara Swisher:What's the proper what it's such a ridiculous cheesecake factory of a of a of a bill, as Christine calls it.

38:24Brian Tyler Cohen:You had mentioned, you know, the Zuckerbergs of of the world and how they'll say whatever they need to say. We've seen that to a broader degree with regard to how these media outlets are capitulating to Trump. The latest to do so was CBS and Paramount for for editing for time and interview on television, which has been standard practice forever. And yet they used any opportunity they could to settle because they have this the Skydance merger that's pending. And so can I have your reaction just more broadly to this?

38:54Kara Swisher:I'm with the whole 60 Minutes team. I mean, Steve Croft was just on Jon Stewart. It's a shakedown. It's a shakedown. It's all it is. And they wanted to do the deal. Trump has said, I'll hold it up. What are you going to do? I mean, they just sit there and they go, huh, we settle now. In some cases, cases are settled as a nuisance. It's a nuisance lawsuit. And the nuisance is between Sherry Redstone and her$2.4 billion or whatever she's getting. The thing is, the price of this thing has gone down a lot. She's lost quite a few billion by just waiting to do this. She should have done it during the Biden administration, by the way, because it would have been a higher price and she wouldn't have this this situation going on.

39:33Kara Swisher:So she's stuck and she's stuck in the in having it pass. If it doesn't, it's a disaster for Paramount if it doesn't happen. So she gets it'll go from two billion to one billion to keep going down and it'll be sold for parts.

39:47Brian Tyler Cohen:And so what do you make more broadly of this idea, though, that like these are the these are these purported defenders of democracy? Like you've got Washington Post, Democracy Dies in Darkness. You've got all of these news networks, the esteemed fourth estate. And when they have the opportunity, like they can, they can, you know, stand behind these flashy slogans when none of them are challenged. But the moment they're actually challenged, the fact that they are folding one by one. We've seen ABC News. We've seen we've seen CBS and Paramount in this scenario. We've seen the L.A. Times. We've seen the Washington Post.

40:15Brian Tyler Cohen:And so, like, I mean, isn't there some major? How did none of these people who work in the news business recognize the damage that they're doing?

40:22Kara Swisher:Business people don't have control over this. Let's be clear. I mean, the only thing they can do is quit, right? And two of them did at CBS. Two big jobs. They quit big jobs. And longtime jobs, by the way. Wendy McMahon and the other guy, Bill, whatever his name is. So they quit. Like, there's no power by the journalists. They can get all angry and stamp their feet. But, you know, you're talking about Sherry Redstone and Jeff Bezos. Yeah, all of them. They don't care. They don't care. I keep – this is something I've told you a million. They don't care. They care about money. They care about getting theirs.

40:55Kara Swisher:And they don't like media in particular. You know, whenever one of them would say that to me, I'm like, get the fuck out of here. Get the fuck out of here. Like, they don't. Like, there's very few of them. Right now, I would say Lorraine Powell Jobs at The Atlantic. She's getting a lot of incoming over the work that Jeff Goldberg is helming. She's sticking to it, it looks like. We'll see. I mean, if she gets enough pressure, I suppose. But they can't pressure her as much, right? She's super rich. and she doesn't have a lot of pressure points. But if they did, they would push them, push on them.

41:26Kara Swisher:But, you know, there's certain owners that are better than others, right? And there's owners that are okay. That's been the history of media. And then there's owners like Catherine Graham of the Washington Post who was, she was wealthy, she was in society. She could have gone a totally different direction because she's a baller. She did the right thing because she cared, but she certainly could have gone in a very different direction than she did. and the only thing to do for the media people is quit right and that's where i own all my stuff i'm like who let me consult my ceo kara swisher oh yes i feel like you know like you know whatever you just say these people oh these people want sherry redstone wants her i know sherry i'm so disappointed in her i not that i thought that she was going to be that a firm supporter anyway But I think she wants hers, I guess, just like Jeff Bezos.

42:20Kara Swisher:I mean, Jeff Bezos is a perfect example. He was very much supportive of the Washington Post for many years or just didn't do anything. And he got attacked in the first Trump administration. And he said, I'm not having that happen again. And meanwhile, he has a new relationship and he's sort of changed or not. Well, whatever. He's changed. And so now he has a different attitude towards this stuff.

42:40Brian Tyler Cohen:Do you think that that? OK, so you look at a situation like CBS where, of course, they edited this interview for time. Trump did the same thing. I mean, we're talking about the Epstein stuff. Fox literally edited the question, the line of questioning for television that they gave him where they were like, are you going to release the JFK files? Are you going to release whatever the other one?

42:58Kara Swisher:They didn't make a mistake.

42:59Brian Tyler Cohen:And then they said and then he said, are you going to release the Epstein files? And he goes, he goes, yeah, yeah, no, it's maybe not so much that one. But they edited that out. And so do you think that there's a world in which Democrats should, you know, sack up, start to grow a spine and say, OK, if you're going to if you're going to sue over that, why don't we have anybody coming out and suing for the same thing under the Trump rule, the Trump precedent?

43:19Kara Swisher:Well, I think that this is a quick ride to nowhere, right? And this kind of stuff. And, you know, I think if Democrats engage in that, we're going to get it for bribery. They're not. They're just not. Look, they may, but for what? For what? What purpose? Just because you win? The same thing with actually if they win the midterms. I just did a good interview with Robert Garcia, who will be the head of the oversight committee. And it's very clear they've got to look at the crypto scams that the Trump family is doing. That's very front and center. And that means a lot for all of the next president's family, the next president's family.

43:51Kara Swisher:And so that's important. But the plane, must we, like, I know a lot of liberals want to go, let's get them for that. It's like, let's, let's win. Let's not, let's, like, there's no, what is, what will be the benefit from doing that? The best case scenario is the crypto stuff, which is really problematic and corrupt. And so be very careful about, you know, I hate to tell it to all your liberal watchers, is you may not get Donald Trump. He may die with all this money and not retribution, and you're going to have to live with it and hope that somewhere he will, right? And so, you know, everyone was like, now he's going to jail.

44:30Kara Swisher:Now he didn't, right? It's Mueller time. Yeah, just, you may have to accept the fact that this guy has squirreled out of all manner of corruption and illegal behavior, including, was it sexual abuse? I want to say that correctly, right? Whatever. You may have to accept that. I know you're all going to, no, we can't. It's like, what do you want to do? Do you want to win or do you want to what?

44:55Brian Tyler Cohen:Try to seek retribution against this guy who's, you know,

44:58Kara Swisher:hopefully - Nelson Mandela could move along. The rest of us can in a lot of ways. And I'm not suggesting that because some of it, like especially the crypto stuff absolutely should be investigated. It's really squirrely and it allows foreign entities to bribe our presidents. You know, that that that we really do need to deal with that no matter who the president is.

45:17Brian Tyler Cohen:I mean, even even as Donald Trump sits down with the leaders of a few African nations, they're all they know exactly. I mean, it's so pathetic. They know exactly how to how to give him what he how to give him the pats on the head that he's looking for. They're all offering him the Nobel Peace Prize. I mean, it's so sad the extent to which it's so easy to game the president of the United States. And if the tables return, if somebody was like, if somebody, if all it took to manipulate Joe Biden was like, here's an ice cream cone and Joe Biden be like, oh, this is great. We're going to have to have to strike up some great deals with your country, with Liberia.

45:49Brian Tyler Cohen:I mean, the right would lose its collective mind.

45:51Kara Swisher:But you have to stop doing that. You know, I know Obama did that. Like, what if I did? Like, who cares? Yeah, I know. They're terrible. Like, they're terrible people. Like, what do you want? You won't do it because you're not a terrible person. And so the issue is, do you want to be right or do you want to be effective? Right. And you're right, but it doesn't really matter. Like, do you want to be indignant or do you want to be effective? You can be indignant, but what do you want? And I think that's what Democrats have to start thinking about. What do we want? Like, and what, which is power, obviously, and getting bills that they like, that the Democrats like better.

46:24Kara Swisher:And they spent all their time. I did a really interesting interview with someone I really admire, Sarah McBride, who gets like so much incoming from those terrible Nancy Mace and Marjorie, the two harpies.

46:36Brian Tyler Cohen:Has only carried herself with class and grace. Class.

46:38Kara Swisher:It says almost nothing about it because you know what? She was elected by all the people of Delaware. And therefore, that's how she behaves. If she centered everything on her trans identity, and I know a lot of trans people think she should, she's not doing the job she was voted in for. And so one of the things she said, she wasn't being a, she wasn't like compromising. What she was saying is we're going to have to have imperfect allies and you're going to have to accept that, right? You're going to have to forgive that. You know, I get a lot of incoming because I used to like Elon Musk. Well, too fucking bad.

47:11Kara Swisher:He was pretty fantastic back then and now isn't. So we're going to have to like really abandon the indignance, although it definitely can power you to get to things and be more. I would I'm really fascinated by Mandan maybe because he's a very jolly fella. He doesn't feel retribution.

47:31Brian Tyler Cohen:It felt like the beginning of the first days of Kamala's campaign. And the entirety of Obama's campaign, to be honest.

47:39Kara Swisher:Right. And I think it's what, if you're going to start a war, you should dig two graves. It just is. Unfortunately, that's the situation. And then later, history will judge these people badly from Elon Musk or Donald Trump. And we will know that. And I think we've got to figure out what's effective to win the midterm elections. And then what are we going to do for the American people? That, to me, is what we have to talk about. $25 minimum wage. I met with a senator last night and I was like, you got to stop. Like, stop. Just like, what do you want to do? Let me hear what you want to do. And so I thought he was not, I would say he was not a Mandani.

48:18Kara Swisher:He's a Democrat, but not a Mandani fan. And I said, why don't you watch these? And I gave him 10 videos. And I was like, you need to see what he's doing here, which is much more effective than, you know, wringing your hands all the time.

48:30Brian Tyler Cohen:Well, to that point, and we'll finish off with this. Who are you looking at? I mean, we have we have a deep bench on the left and we need a deep bench on the left because because, you know, as we engage in what I very much hope will be an entire cycle of generational change and moving out the old guard, hopefully eliminating the gerontocracy that has completely enveloped the Democratic Party. Who's caught your eye, especially as we head toward 2020?

48:53Kara Swisher:Let's keep in mind, 70 people in Congress are over seven years older, 80, something that most of them are Democrats. Like, let's be clear. 100 percent. Yeah. So one of the things I think is important is people start to look at people who are, they don't have to be young necessarily, by the way. They just have to be effective. And I think the question is, what's really a problem is like, are we going to be left? Are we going to be right? Well, you know what? Abby Spanberger should be what's right for Virginia to be governor.

49:20Brian Tyler Cohen:I say all the time. She's not like Mondani. Jared Golden is not going to win in AOC's district and she's not going to win in his.

49:25Kara Swisher:Correct. So be who you are, where you are, and then come together and try to find common ground for the things you want to pass. But there's no way the Democrats look over, right? There's the beginning for the beginning. There's the crazy conspiracy theorists. There's the America first. There's the racists. Then there's the them, you know. And then there's Marco Rubio standing there looking like he's having an aneurysm at any moment. Yeah. So, and, you know, and willing to be a Quisling. So, which he wants because he wants to be president. Like, again, why? Everyone's like, why is Mario doing this?

49:56Kara Swisher:I'm like, he wants to be president. And they're like, but why? And I'm like, because he wants to be president. It's so simple if you just look at what they want. And in the case of Musk, he wants power. And in the case of Trump, he wants money and power. And so, you know.

50:11Brian Tyler Cohen:So going back, who are you looking at?

50:14Kara Swisher:What names interest you? You know, obviously, Wes Moore gets a lot of attention. I'm very impressed with him. I did a recent interview with him. You know, typical ones among politicians, Josh Shapiro, I suppose Pritzker, I suppose, I doubt Gretchen Whitmer will be as big a factor. I suspect Amy Klobuchar will wander around into because she really wants to run the country, I think, pretty much, which is fine. Newsom, clearly. You know, I like, you know, everyone's looking at Andy Beshear, but I was so impressed by Laura Kelly from Kansas. I don't know why. I just really liked her whole thing. And then there's all kinds of interests.

50:53Kara Swisher:I mean, AOC, you can't count her out. She's a really, she's one of the most gifted politicians in very similar similarities with Trump.

51:01Brian Tyler Cohen:Not in terms of policy, but in charisma-styled communication skills.

51:07Kara Swisher:Mandani definitely has that. Of course, he's early. He's a little early. Any non-political?

51:13Brian Tyler Cohen:Any Mark Cuban? Well, Mark Cuban.

51:14Kara Swisher:I always bug him. I always like, are you running yet? No. He would tell me if he was. He would hedge it, but he hasn't hedged it once with me. So, I mean, he'd be a really interesting candidate. We were joking he should run as a Republican just to drive them fucking crazy.

51:29Brian Tyler Cohen:Yeah. Kara, where can folks who are watching and listening see and hear more from you?

51:33Kara Swisher:Oh, Pivot. Pivot with Scott Galloway, who is very wise too, and on with Kara Swisher.

51:39Brian Tyler Cohen:Excellent. Well, I would highly recommend it. I just listened to your latest episode of Pivot last night with Scott, and it's always wonderful. So highly recommend for anybody who's watching and listening right now.

51:48Kara Swisher:Scott's in Ibiza. I am not.

51:50Brian Tyler Cohen:Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're here with us. We appreciate it. Kara, thank you so much for taking the time. Thanks. I'm joined now by the founder of Democracy Defenders Fund, Norm Eisen. Norm, you have just proven yourself a major thorn in Donald Trump's side, blowing a huge hole in a plan that he had since day one of his administration. Can you explain what you just did in court? We just secured the certification of a nationwide class of plaintiffs and a preliminary injunction that Donald Trump's denial of the Constitution, which says that all persons born in the United States are citizen, is unconstitutional.

52:35From the beginning of his administration, the very first day, he signed an executive order saying, no, the 14th Amendment, all persons born here are citizens. that only applied to the children of slaves back when it was passed after the Civil War. No, that's not what it says at all. It says all persons born in the United States. A cornerstone of his administration and his hatred is the scapegoating. We see that with authoritarians everywhere in the world. They always pick a scapegoat. Donald Trump is targeting migrants. And together with our partners in this case, the ACLU, the nation's oldest and largest Latino civil rights group, LULAC, the NAACP, LDF, Legal Defense Fund, and so many other wonderful partners.

53:27We have secured this injunction and we've put Donald Trump back in his corner. He thought the Supreme Court let him off two weeks ago. We've shown him that still no one is above the law.

53:41Brian Tyler Cohen:So basically, this was a situation where Trump thought that he had carte blanche to be able to move forward with his unlawful plans, his unconstitutional plans, because he watched the Supreme Court say in deference to him that there can be no nationwide injunction. So one court somewhere can't look at a blatantly unlawful order handed down by the Trump administration and say, no, you can't do that. And this injunction applies to the whole country. And so he thought he got a win. But now your lawsuit basically pushed back on that and said, OK, if we can't have nationwide injunctions, we can still have class action lawsuits.

54:14Brian Tyler Cohen:And so let's find everybody impacted by birthright citizenship and say that they are part of the same class of protected people, which effectively has the exact same result as what a nationwide injunction would be. Is that correct? That's right, Brian. About two weeks ago in the CASA case, the Supreme Court closed one door and said just plain old nationwide injunctions where a judge says you violated the 14th Amendment. I'm going to issue an injunction covering the country. No. But they opened another door. They said the way to do that is to go to court, have a class that means a similarly situated representative groups, group of plaintiffs who stand for people across the country.

55:02Get your class certified. The court says, yes, that is a class. I'm accepting it. And then get a preliminary injunction that way. Well, within two hours of that Supreme Court decision, ourselves and the ACLU and LULAC and the LDF and our other wonderful partners and our wonderful clients, the children who have been born since February 20th or who are the parents of the children who are going to be born. Those are the clients here. And with our wonderful clients, we were back in court a little over two hours later. We asked the judge to go fast. He did. And here we are with this certification of our class and this injunction, just like the Supreme Court invited.

55:51Brian Tyler Cohen:Right. And it's it's also worthwhile to move quickly because otherwise you have babies born who are literally stateless. And that is not a tenable position here. So is this retroactive to are there any babies that were born before this before this court ruling was handed down that are effectively stateless who were born to undocumented immigrants that were still like under the, I guess, temporary jurisdiction of Trump's executive order? Well, there's issues about the timing of the executive order. Trump claims it doesn't kick in for 30 days after the Supreme Court decision. But the court was leaving nothing to chance.

56:30It did issue a retroactive injunction that goes back to the end of that original 30-day period, which is February 20th. So the injunction is for all children born after February 20th, 2025. If I've coast to coast who are born of where one parent was a an undocumented migrant, the other parent might have citizenship, but perhaps not permanent citizenship. Any child where there could be a question, do they have birthright citizenship? They are protected by this injunction. Now we're going to have to continue to fight appeals. But as you know, we can't have a crazy quilt that a baby in one county is protected because a judge there happened to issue an injunction.

57:20And then next door, a baby is born that's not protected. We need a uniform plan. Brian, I certainly haven't agreed with everything this Roberts court has done. But there's a consistent pattern where they close one door and they open another one. They make it a little tougher, but with hard work, you're able to deliver for the Constitution, for the clients. For example, remember the Abrego Garcia case? Lower court judge said the government must facilitate and effectuate the return of Abrego. No, the Supreme Court said you must facilitate, effectuate. That's too much. They compromised. Well, guess what?

58:03Abrego's lawyers had to work a little hard. The Trump administration said, oh, we're never bringing him back today. Abrego is back on U.S. soil and fighting, utilizing the courts, utilizing his due process rights. So same thing here. The court made it a little tougher. Roberts court made it a little tougher. But they did open that door. We walked through it. In fact, two hours after the Supreme Court's ruling, we ran through that door to protect the rights of these babies. All babies born in the United States are citizens of the United States. My parents were migrants. Every person here comes of migrant stock except for the Native Americans.

58:49And so this is the idea of America in action. And we're very proud that we secured that first injunction.

58:59Brian Tyler Cohen:Now, Norm, it's worth asking here that normally when you have a federal district court, their rulings don't establish any precedent. But isn't it true that now that we have a now that this is a class action lawsuit, the only people impacted are not those who are in this specific case. This is class action. And so this is the entire country. Everybody who who falls into this this class across the entirety of the United States is protected by this ruling. Is that correct? That's exactly right, Brian. Normally, when a federal district court, the trial court rules, that binds that individual judge and other judges in that district may or may not agree with that first opinion.

59:43It's not until the appellate courts and ultimately the Supreme Court get involved that precedent is more broadly binding. But this is following what the Supreme Court said less than two weeks ago, making such news in the CASA case, that the way to get a nationwide injunction and bind everyone in the country, every baby born here in the period the judge applied this to after February 20th, is through class action. And that's what we did. We got the class certified. That means the judge said, yes, it's a proper class. It represents all the babies. And and we got the injunction based on that class certification.

1:00:27Now we'll have appeals here. But we think we're on firm footing. We did what the Supreme Court asked. Donald Trump's reading of the Constitution on birthright citizenship is ridiculous. He says it only applies to the children of slaves. It says very clearly all persons. This is an originalist court. They say, follow the words and the original meaning. That is clearly the meaning. The court has held as much for the entire history of this 14th Amendment. And we're confident that we are going to succeed on appeal.

1:01:03Brian Tyler Cohen:Well, look, I will always give, happy to give a platform to the people who are fighting, especially those who are fighting on the front lines. And you and your team at Democracy Defenders Fund and all of the other groups and other co-council that were involved in this case are chief among them. So highly recommend for anybody watching, if you're looking to support the work that Democracy Defenders Fund is doing, which is fighting this battle on the front lines, I'll put the link to that right here on the screen and also in the post description of this video. If you're listening on the podcast, it'll be in the show notes.

1:01:30Brian Tyler Cohen:Norm, appreciate the work that you're doing and the time that you have today. Brian, it's been so meaningful to me as you and I have traveled on this journey of Trump's autocratic overreach, but the pushback, including in the courts and by the rule of law. We've had so many of these conversations with your wonderful viewers and listeners, and we're on this journey together. We're going to protect the Constitution. We're going to protect all the American babies, and we're going to end this autocratic nightmare together. Norm, thanks again. Thanks again to Jamie Raskin, Kara Swisher, and Norm Eisen.

1:02:11Brian Tyler Cohen:That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week.

1:02:37We'll see you next time.