Trump pulls most CORRUPT stunt of second term

21:19Brian Tyler Cohen:Right. Okay. Well, we will, of course, stay on top of this. Congressman, thanks so much for taking the time today. I appreciate it. Thanks, Brian. No Lies brought to you by Helix. So I was a personal trainer for about a decade before I got into politics, and I would tell people every day how to be healthy, how to exercise, how to lift properly. But nothing was more important than rest. It's actually the time off that delivers the most results. And that starts with a good night's sleep. And that starts with a good mattress. So I have the Helix Midnight Elite. I'm getting uninterrupted seven to eight hours of sleep every night, which means I'm completely set up for the next day, as opposed to feeling exhausted before I've even hit the halfway point of my day.

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22:30Brian Tyler Cohen:Go to helixsleep.com slash BTC for 20 % off site-wide. That's helixsleep.com slash BTC for 20 % off site-wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you. helixsleep.com slash BTC. I'm joined now by the host of Runaway Country, Alex Wagner. Alex, thanks for joining me. Thank you for having me, my friend. It's great to be here. So we have just watched as the Republicans finally had the ability to reign in Trump in Congress with this unpopular war, something that's been weighing not just Trump's approval ratings down, but the rest of the party's approval ratings down with this War Powers resolution.

23:07Brian Tyler Cohen:And instead of using their own autonomy to reign him in, they decided to give him control and block this vote. And so I'm just curious what your thoughts are as we as we watch the Republicans kind of say, you know what, we could have used our authority to rein Trump in, but instead we decided to to give him full reign here. And so we own this as much as he does. I just you know, I got to say that the in it that the what is it the gelding? That's the term I've been using, the castration of Republican power really, to me, reached its apex in and around this, because this is also the same week that the Cook Political Report moved four key Senate races towards the Democratic side of the ledger.

23:49And you could argue that the only reason Republicans pledge undying fealty and loyalty to Donald Trump is because they're concerned that he's the reason they remain in power. But literally everything Trump is doing right now is endangering their prospects of getting reelected to say nothing of control of Congress, right? Like, if you see, I mean, forget about the moral question, right? Like, should we even be engaged in slaughtering thousands of Iranians and Lebanese? Like, should we be doing this all in America's name with no particular achievements viable at the end of all of this? Tactically and strategically, the gas prices that are not going to come down for at least several weeks, if not months, the energy shortages, the fuel shortages that are affecting almost every sector of the global economy.

24:36All this is not good news for any Republican strategically. They were given an opportunity to say, no, we don't agree with this. And they didn't take it. Like to me, that distills the essence of the modern day Republican Party. It's not simply the naked pursuit of power. It's a cowardice that knows no basement, right? Like they are so terrified of him that they'll see not only their independent governing authority, they will see their election prospects and the ability to remain in power just so that Trump doesn't get mad at them. That is some wild shit, Brian.

25:14Brian Tyler Cohen:It is. And the part that doesn't make sense to me is like, OK, and you brought and you had just alluded to this was the reason that they're so eager to hug him is because they don't want, you know, a mean tweet, God forbid, or a primary challenger, God forbid, to emerge from his ire. But if hugging Trump in and of itself is what's dragging them down, then then like, what is the rationale for continuing to do it? I don't know. I mean, I think I think Does someone I actually keep meaning to look this up, but like, when is the last Republican primary for 2028? Because I guess the thinking is they got to get through primary season.

25:56And once they do that, maybe they can have a little more. They can establish a little bit more daylight between them and the executive branch. But I am like, don't hold your breath on that.

26:04Brian Tyler Cohen:Right. And it's and it's also so transparent what they would be trying to do. OK, so you get through the entire primary process where you become the general election nominee. And only then do you suddenly realize that, hey, maybe the maybe the war that I helped greenlight wasn't a good idea. Maybe the gas prices that surged as the result of me contracting every ounce of my autonomy over to Trump isn't a good idea. I mean, like everything you can trace back to their own unwillingness to speak up when they actually had the opportunity to do so. Totally. I mean, I think that they think they're good.

26:32Like they have I mean, I will say they have managed to wipe their hands of any of the sort of or they have tried to wipe their hands and wipe their feet, as it were, of any of the most negative, stinky shit the Trump administration has thrown at the American public, I don't think they can do this on the war in Iran. I really don't. And I mean that because, you know, again, I'm not a CNBC analyst and I don't follow the market nor am I a petroleum engineer, but it seems to me that the effects of this war are going to be long lasting and the ultimate idiocy with which Trump has conducted himself.

27:04We're going to end up with a harder line regime in place than there was at the beginning. Iran is going to retain some control of a body of water that it had no claim to before the start of this war. And in the meantime, you know, the Philippines is on a four day work week. Like people, jet fuel prices are rising. Gas is going to be over four dollars a barrel or a gallon for the next at least into Memorial Day. Like those are tangible effects of this that the American public is not, I think, easily going to forget. In addition to the moral stain. I mean, I just go back to the bombing of that girl's school and like, God, I hope when Congress gets its balls back, we can have some real investigation into the war crimes perpetrated in our name by Hegseth and his minions.

27:48Brian Tyler Cohen:On that point, do you think the Democrats have a willingness to do that? And I ask because, like, first of all, we saw Biden come into office kind of with this idea that that his presidency would be a return to normalcy. And it was enough to get him elected, but clearly not enough to keep him in office. I mean, that gave, you know, gave rise to Trump 2.0, which was even more lawless than before. And I think a lot of that lawlessness was born out of the fact that that there were no repercussions for anything that these Republicans had done. I mean, even Trump himself for inciting an insurrection, Merrick Garland wasn't even willing to look into that for two years.

28:24Brian Tyler Cohen:And only only then did he deign to appoint a special counsel, at which point Trump had enough time to kind of wriggle out of any, you know, any charges because there was just enough delay tactics to get him to the president. Yeah, well, and announced he was running for office again. So it became impossible to actually really fall anyway. But look, I think we have seen there is some evidence that Democrats have much more of a much more gumption this time around. Number one, I think the government shutdowns are indicative of a party that's like we're going to use every level we have to stand on principle.

28:59And so far, those two principles, those two principles are real ones, right? The cost of health care, which affects 23. Oh, the cost of Obamacare. I know you cover this, like 23 million Americans know what it's like to have healthcare costs skyrocket. I interviewed someone on my show whose healthcare costs were going from$100 a month to$860 a month. I mean, that's just not tenable. Yeah. Right? Wild, wild fluctuations, right? And then the other piece was ICE. You know, I do think we talk about signal moments in administrations. And at the same time, we also talk about the way in which there's so many controversies and there's so many bad sagas in the Trump years that it becomes, you know, blurred together.

29:37But I do think the slaughter, the murder of Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole Good sticks in the mind of people. And the fact that Democrats took a stand and said, we are not going to fund the Department of Homeland Security, which remains unfunded, until we see some significant, meaningful reforms to ICE. That's, that's, the American public, we all lived through that moment. And we all saw the senseless killing of Americans on the streets by a group of militarized, you know, ICE goons and CPB goons. That's going to come back up. They may have figured out a way to make these arrests and deportations less public, but there is still horrible stuff happening in these detention centers.

30:18ICE is still doing something very wicked to the American public. And I think that Democrats, the fact that they took a principled stand and were ready to pay a political cost in the name of reform is indicative of a party that is going to fight differently if and when they get power back. I also think like the minute you draw a Trump administration official onto the Hill and ask some tough questions of him or her, I see you, Kristi Noem. They're like out. You know what I mean? Like bring pig head like if when the Democrats have control of the Oversight Committee, like bring Pete Hegseff in and ask him to explain why he needed to explode fishermen in the Caribbean.

30:57Brian Tyler Cohen:Yeah. I mean, that's where we got the the infamous the Dow is at 50 ,000 moment from Pam Bondi. Like these people crack under it. I mean, it shows why they were why they were hired. It's not because of their competence. It's because they were going to heap heap undying fealty onto Donald Trump. Like, that's why they're there. They were talking about the Dow when they were being asked about ICE arrests. I mean, it's just the level of mendacity is, but it's just, it's artless mendacity. It's so transparent. And you're right. The minute they have to open their mouths and answer a tough question, not only do they embarrass themselves, they embarrass Trump.

31:33And so what I think you could see in the interim between 2026 and 2028 is a real, the heat applied to the cabinet in a way that it certainly isn't being right now.

31:42Brian Tyler Cohen:You know, the really jaded part of me sees a lot of this stuff happening. And and in the moment, it feels like, OK, nobody could ever look away from or forget what just happened here as it relates to ICE, as it relates to these immigrant deportations, as it relates to the suspension of habeas corpus, like every moment of the Trump era, like every month has its thing. Right. And it all feels like like there is no way he can he can escape accountability for all of this. People are so angry about all of this. And so like the really jaded part of me is like, well, you know, with the speed with which this news cycle moves, I do worry that people are going to forget about what happened with ICE, going to forget what happened with the Epstein files, what happened with the Iran war, just because like, you know, days pass and there's a reversion to the mean.

32:33Brian Tyler Cohen:and, you know, and their media ecosystem is such a well-oiled machine of just being able to spew out propaganda. So, like, I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that. Do you think a lot of this stuff sticks or do you think that there is a reversion to the mean where, you know, what felt like a hurricane in one moment, you know, kind of just filters away into nothing the next? So I we began this week with a victory or an election in Hungary that I think was instructive. I mean, Hungary is the size of New Jersey. So, like, let's not draw too many parallels. But Viktor Orban's an autocrat who's ruled with like a very interesting grip on the country's media and its economy, its health care system and has done a shit job.

33:22And for a long time, you know, he this was a 16 year reign. He could get away with it. But what happened was his stewardship of the economy and the education system and the healthcare system in Hungary was so abysmal that people who would have stuck with him and let the other traumas and degradations of democracy slide by began to get restive and they began to get angry. And that, I think, is – and they voted him out of office. It was a perfect storm of years of corruption, years of mismanagement, and then a practical lived reality that was so subpar that his time was up. And I think you're seeing a faster evolution on that front here in the United States, right?

34:04Trump has grossly mismanaged the economy. The affordability question has gotten worse, not better, since he's gotten into office. And then on top of that, you lay on the war in Iran, you lay the deaths and the chaos sown by ICE. I do think on their own, each one of these things wouldn't necessarily be enough. But I think the lived experience of Americans right now is so tangibly not better. That's why you're seeing this hemorrhaging among Latino men, among the white working class. These are coalitions that were essential in bringing Trump back into office. And they are not with him. Even the stuff with Pope Leo, you saw Catholic bishops standing up to Trump.

34:43You saw Christian podcasters standing up to Trump. That's not just because they were outraged by him picking a war with the Catholic church. It's because Trump's weak. It's because he hasn't made their lives better. And now every sort of one of these things is the straw that has a potential to break the camel's back. So I think, you know, if we were talking about singular kind of events, yeah, maybe it wouldn't be enough. Maybe we would revert to the mean. But I do think because you're talking about an everyday experience in the lives of Americans that is worse under Trump, that these things hit harder and they have the potential to really move people that otherwise would not be in consideration for either staying home or voting for a Democrat.

35:25Brian Tyler Cohen:You know, what's really striking is watching these right wing podcasters. And these are people who've built their identities around their blind fealty to Trump. And even those people are speaking out. We had a pretty obvious example just about a week and a half ago where Alex Jones talked Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly. I know I'm forgetting one more, but in any case, we had a bunch of people who had come out who had come out against Trump. And, you know, I'm I wonder if there's something instructive in there because these podcasters are obviously going to their careers are going to outlast Trump's presidency.

36:01Brian Tyler Cohen:And I wonder if they're now seeing the writing on the wall in terms of how I don't know, like like how much of a failed experiment MAGA was. And they're kind of skating to where the puck is going as opposed to where it is right now and recognizing that like, OK, if they want to have some survival beyond the Trump years, they're going to have to go to where the people are. And if and if they're seeing that people are upset because Trump has lied about everything he promised when he was coming to office, whether it was lowering costs or no new foreign wars or releasing the Epstein files or bringing inflation down or protecting earned benefits, whatever it may be, that he's failed on all of those things.

36:37Brian Tyler Cohen:It's inevitable that he's going to continue purging his own supporters, that these people want to make sure that they're there to pick up those right wing audiences, even in the aftermath of Trump. Like, it's actually the people who are just blind devotees to Trump who are going to not have much of a half life because, you know, once Trump is out and he's remembered for being as poor a leader as he is right now, like those people are going to look pretty ridiculous in the aftermath of Trump 2.0. Yeah, well, it's it's there's an interview that John Allen from NBC News did with a woman at a gas station.

37:15And she's like, I voted for him three times. I'm an asshole. You know what I'm talking about. Yes, I'm the idiot. I'm the idiot. Sorry. She said idiot, not asshole.

37:24Brian Tyler Cohen:I actually can't. No, I can't. No, I actually do. You're right. I think you're right. You're right. Well, whatever. Yeah. First of all, I think we, you know, it's much like when you get try and get someone out of a cult. It's very hard to people have to come to it on their own. And like, I think part of the reason the polling has been sort of up until now, Trump's been very resilient in the polls is because you ask a MAGA supporter, Claire McCaskill told me this, and I fully believe this. You ask a MAGA supporter if they still support Trump and it's an indictment of their own choice. And so there's a natural reluctance to say, yeah, I don't support him anymore because you're implicated.

38:02But we're we're getting beyond that point. People are really, I think, just like this woman at the gas station. She's like, yep, I'm a fucking idiot. But it's it's it's the same way that like there is a tacit understanding that there is going to be a life beyond Trump. and an tacit understanding that if you can save your, like if you can save your rep now, try to. A, I think Tucker Carlson might be running for president or some higher office at some point, which should send chills down everybody's spine. But I think that could have partially something to do with it. I think Megyn Kelly likes to insert herself as irrelevant by being sort of counter to the prevailing White House narrative.

38:40I think she likes, I think she thinks she exerts some extra power. So I think that there's a personal gain for her in that criticism. But I genuinely also think both of those two people are undying and unyielding opportunists who understand exactly the thing that you say, which is we are going to need to carry this audience with us after Trump. And the best way of doing that is separating ourselves from Trump and what we see as quite obviously his worst mistakes and retaining credibility as conservative voices. So, yeah, I think that's a huge calculation in all of this.

39:13Brian Tyler Cohen:And by the way, like, it's not just them who see the writing on the wall. You can tell that Vance does, too, because Vance keeps planting these stories. He did it in Politico first, then he did it in The New York Times just about a week ago, where he keeps where he and his team keep leaking like a faucet. This idea that he is the lone skeptic in the room as it relates to Iran. They're engaged in this Iran war right now. And so when you have the vice president, the number two in this administration, leaking to these reporters that he is against the war, that the administration is right now fighting like that.

39:46Brian Tyler Cohen:That's the writing on the wall that shows how deeply unpopular this thing is, that he's already running away from the thing that is happening in real time. But the problem for Vance, of course, is going to be, you know, he like those headlines, Vance, lone skeptic in the room, those headlines are not going to be enough to give him the plausibility, the plausible deniability that he needs, especially when you have somebody like Tucker Carlson, who right now can see the writing on the wall, he's not in the situation room. He's not plagued by by the albatross around his neck. That is, you know, being the vice president of an administration that's fighting this war.

40:22Brian Tyler Cohen:And by the way, not not, you know, he doesn't have the ability to run away from Trump because Trump will just destroy him. Tucker Carlson can. And so if there is a situation in 2028 where, you know, Tucker Carlson, God forbid, decides that he's going to run for president. Like that's a leg up that he has on J.D. Vance because he's going to be able to hammer him. And Marco Rubio. And Marco Rubio. He's going to be able to hammer these people. You're so right about the leaks. Like the New York Times had like an inside the situation room when Trump made the decision to go to war with Iran. And the two people that come out as like the skeptics in all this, the kind of semi reasonable minds in the room are Marco Rubio and J.D.

40:58Vance, which is like the biggest tell that But the information that was leaked to the press came from J.D. Vance and Marco Rubio, who are, as you say, conspicuously mum on this war or at least have more complicated, contorted positions on it because they know they're going to have to run on it. But you're right. Like I just first of all, I think Trump's going to issue blanket pardons for anybody that was in the administration because many of them could be tried for war crimes or criminal corruption. But B, like washing yourself of the stink is going to be really hard. I mean, the poor choices, the corruption, the criminality is so profound.

41:36It really makes Trump one look like child's play. And I think Democrats are going to be way more tenacious than they were the first time around. And I would assume that any Democrat who gets the nomination in 2028 is going to assure the American public that there will be a full accounting of what was done in the previous four years.

41:55Brian Tyler Cohen:Well, you know, the interesting thing about about that is like, as it relates to poor choices and you have you have J.D. Vance, who is not able to distance himself from Trump. Like there was a moment where a reporter even asked about about his past comments on on foreign adventurism. And and like, how can you how can you how can you have that position in the past, but then hold hold, you know, be part of an administration that's engaging in exactly that behavior right now? And he was like, I see what you're trying to do. This is just another gotcha by by the media. And so he's falling into this trap that that, by the way, Kamala Harris fell into, you know, on the view when they asked, what would you what would you do to how would you differentiate yourself from Biden?

42:35Brian Tyler Cohen:What would you do differently? And she wasn't able to answer that question. And that was such a bad moment for her during this past campaign. And now J.D. Vance is doing the exact same thing. And it's so interesting because like all of we have so many instances where where everything that kind of caught up the Democrats in the lead up to 2024 is what the Republicans are contending with right now. And they should know better. Let me just say, but we're exploited it. Or worse. I mean, like we have the we have the the high prices and now prices are obviously surging under this administration. We have we have an inability of the government to recognize what like economic pain people are contending with by pointing to these macroeconomic metrics like the stock market.

43:18Brian Tyler Cohen:I mean, like this is exactly what Trump exploited in the lead up to the 2024 election. And they're just doing it. They've learned no lessons. No. Well, but, you know, like, let me just say, you know, it is complicated to criticize the president whom you serve for any vice president, right, who's currently in office. And that was certainly part of Kamala Harris's problem. But J.D. Vance is like literally on a leash. I mean, like the strange patriarchal dynamic between him and Trump is like pretty unique in American politics. I mean, they literally call him daddy. They call him daddy. Daddy. This is not an Alex Cooper plug.

43:58They call him daddy, you know, like the. And so you would imagine. And I think the same is true for Marco Rubio. They both. I'm sure part of the deal to get them in the cabinet was to promise them that they would be the inheritor of the MAGA throne. Now they have to have a succession style battle to figure out who's going to get Trump's endorsement in 2028. But, you know, these are two people who are both terrified and intrigued by the president they serve and even more so than most administration officials. So their inability to answer and distance themselves from the policies that they've helped enact is going to be massive liability for them as they launch presidential campaigns in 2028.

44:36I mean, I will relish the question and answer process on all of it because there are no good answers. They are the worst apologists for the worst, most corrupt administration in American history.

44:47Brian Tyler Cohen:And that's like the part that I actually can't wrap my head around is like you have all of these people who are, you know, you would assume that they're political animals, right? Right. Like these members of Congress, these administration officials, these senators, they all know what they're doing. They all can see the writing on the wall. And I mean, this brings us back to the very first topic that we were talking about here. But that that is the part that I have trouble reconciling is like you all. Everything that you do is for your own political survival. And yet you are right now tying your hitching your wagon to an administration that is only dimming your own electoral prospects, especially like even in these seats that would otherwise be safe.

45:24Brian Tyler Cohen:I mean, we were talking about the 2026 midterms that are coming up. I mean, the Democrats have have a better, according to the prediction markets, have a better chance of taking the Senate than even the Republicans do. And that means inherently the Democrats are right. Our favorite to win in like Ohio and Alaska and Texas and and North Carolina. I mean, it's it's just like this is it. And so to see these things happening in real time, to see Mar-a-Lago now represented by a Democrat in the state legislature, to see these swings in in, you know, South South Texas among Latino communities by like 40 to 50 points is it should be a blinking red light to people whose vision is otherwise clouded by their blind allegiance to to the God King.

46:14The sun king. Yeah, I think, you know, being part of Trump's Republican Party requires some certain suspension of disbelief, right? Yeah. You don't have, you have to believe that the laws of political gravity don't apply to him, which is why he can get away with most of the shit that he has done or promised. And so I think that's at play here, right? Like, oh, this would hurt anyone else, but it's not going to hurt Trump. And therefore it's not going to hurt us. But the miscalculation they're making, I think, is the American people see through it. I think the lived reality for Americans is way worse now than it was eight years ago.

46:48And Trump is weaker and more addled as a character. And people see that. You know, the American public sees this person who does not really look to be in command of the country that he's supposed to be leading. And I think that that has really eroded confidence and given an opportunity for people who would otherwise not be critical of him, who are not in politics, to say, this guy is fucking up. So I think the pressure points are much more significant for these Republicans. I think there are earlier calculations about Trump's ability to withstand a certain amount of political chaos that would otherwise fell anyone else.

47:21I think that calculation is wrong. And I think the time for comeuppance is now. And like they really underestimate, they look at what happened in 2022 and the fact that Republicans came back, Trump came back from those midterms and won in 2024. And they assume the same is going to be true, that these special elections, off-year elections are not harbingers of what's to come, but one-offs and anomalies. And I think that's the wrong calculation to make. I think what you're seeing, to your point, is uniform disavowal of what the Republican brand has to offer. And I think that is going to be very pronounced in November.

47:56Brian Tyler Cohen:Well, that is the perfect place to leave off for everybody who is watching and listening right now. Highly, highly, highly recommend that you subscribe to Runaway Country, both anywhere you get your podcasts as well as on YouTube. So I'm going to put those links right here on the screen and also in the post description. If you're listening on the podcast, I'll throw it into the show notes. Alex, as always, it is a pleasure. Brian, you're the best. Thank you for having me on the pod. Thanks for the plug. Please come back to Runaway Country whenever your schedule allows, my friend.

48:25Brian Tyler Cohen:I'm joined now by California Attorney General Rob Bonta. Thanks so much for joining me. My pleasure, Brian. Good to see you again. So we have a huge win here, not just on behalf of the people of California, but really a bipartisan coalition. Can you explain the win that you just notched in court? Yeah, we have been in court in the Southern District of New York. we being multiple states across the country a bipartisan group of states suing Ticketmaster Live Nation for anti-competitive conduct conduct that violates antitrust law and today the verdict came in and the jury found for us on every item that was presented to them it was yes down the line on the verdict form 11 pages of yeses holding Ticketmaster Live Nation accountable holding them liable for illegal conduct.

49:16So for folks who sat at a computer and tried to buy a ticket to a concert and thought that the price was too high or something was fishy and decided to purchase it anyway, but weren't happy or decided maybe to take a pass. It wasn't just fishy what was happening. It was illegal. And so this was unlawful conduct on the part of Ticketmaster Live Nation that hurt our economy, that hurt fans and consumers, that hurt performers, that hurt other businesses. And it wasn't Ticketmaster Live Nation acting because they were better, they had a better product or a better design, it's because they cheated.

49:54They acted unlawfully, they acted illegally. That's what the jury found today. So a really important moment, and some of the backdrop is the United States Department of Justice was part of this case until they weren't. They dropped out of the case right before trial. They settled with Ticketmaster Live Nation on very weak terms. This US DOJ, this federal government is soft on corporations that act illegally to raise prices. And this is another example of it. But the states continued in our case. We went all the way through trial. We made our case to the jury and justice was done today and Ticketmaster Live Nation is being held accountable.

50:31Brian Tyler Cohen:Well, look, I know that there's a lot of people out there who have bought tickets or been forced, I should say, to buy tickets because of the monopolistic behavior of these entities, been forced to buy tickets on Ticketmaster Live Nation, paid exorbitant fees, recognizing that this conduct is now illegal. What kind of remedy is there for people who have been impacted? That's the next step. So this was the liability stage where a jury decided that Ticketmaster Live Nation was liable all across the board on all the questions presented to them. Next is the remedy phase. where a judge will decide what happens next, what remedies will match the liability found by the jury.

51:10It could take a lot of different forms. It could be money damages. It could be behavioral conditions. It could be a breakup of the monopoly, like a breakup of, we call it a divestiture, a rolling off as a separate entity of ticketmaster, for example. That's something that we have asked for. It could be some combination of those things. It could be something else as well. So we will find out in the coming weeks what the remedy is. There could be the potential for restitution for victims as well, money back in pockets. But all that is TBD still to be determined in the weeks ahead.

51:45Brian Tyler Cohen:Now, interestingly, this case was initially being spearheaded by the Department of Justice. If I'm not mistaken, this started in the Biden Department of Justice under... Okay, so this This initially, you know, launched from the Biden DOJ, Trump's team will talk about what Trump's team opted to do and why the onus ultimately fell to you and a bipartisan coalition of attorneys general. Yeah, you know, it's been, unfortunately, the brand of this United States Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission, the two entities in the federal government that do antitrust work, to depart and to retreat from the typical traditional role of those entities to do, you know, fair, firm, objective antitrust enforcement.

52:33That's been what multiple administrations, both Republican and Democrat, have done over many, many decades. But this administration is different. They are not enforcing antitrust law. They are picking winners and losers. They're trying to allow deals to go through when it helps their friends, their favorites. There's a specific case, HP Juniper, where we think there was improper, corrupt lobbying and other behavior that was involved. So here the United States DOJ on the eve of trial decided to settle. They settled on terms that we thought were weak. It was a combination of monetary damages and some behavioral changes.

53:09And we thought it just wasn't acceptable, that it wasn't close to what Ticketmaster Live Nation should be required to do. And so we decided to forge ahead, go to trial. Now we have this historical, groundbreaking jury verdict. And next we'll have to get the remedy that matches that liability.

53:27Brian Tyler Cohen:You know, you had mentioned that this was a bipartisan coalition of attorneys general. What does it say that even some of these, you know, diehard right wing AGs decided to join in on this case, even when, you know, when Trump's DOJ wouldn't? What does that say about where this DOJ is trying to put itself? and look you know to that point some of these republican ags we became aware that they were under pressure from the white house you know from trump to not continue with the case but to your point they continued anyway despite the political pressure because they thought that it was so clear uh it was so egregious that the illegal conduct was was so reprehensible that ticketmaster live nation was involved in that they had they had to continue on in the case and And not many things are unfortunately bipartisan these days.

54:17I wish more were. We are bipartisan with our Republican colleagues when it comes to the mental health harms of social media platforms. And we still are in some of the antitrust cases, not all. This is one of them. So I'm glad we were able to work together. But this is a case in which Ticketmaster Live Nation executives were literally laughing at consumers, saying that they were robbing them blind and that these people are so stupid as they jacked up their prices and really deteriorated their quality and their experience. And they took people's money to the bank. They acted illegally. They took advantage of them.

54:53They ripped people off. It was big corporations ripping people off, doing it unlawfully. It was wrong. They deserve to be held accountable. And today they were.

55:02Brian Tyler Cohen:What could the punishment for Ticketmaster Live Nation look like? And I'm not talking about a remedy for the consumers. I'm talking about like, you know, we've heard about the prospect of breaking this company up. You know, it might be too soon for you to answer this question, or you might not be able to do it because, you know, this is still all ongoing litigation and prosecution. But in this kind of a scenario, what could be on the table? A couple different things. And so the Ticketmaster Live Nation business model involves promoting performers, representing venues, and then also selling tickets through Ticketmaster.

55:43And they generally try to tie all those things together and leverage one with the other. Right.

55:49Brian Tyler Cohen:And just basically become completely vertically integrated. Absolutely. And so if you're a performer, they'll say, you have to use us to promote you if you want access to all these great venues that we have. Or if you're a venue, they say, if you want this you know, class A, highly sought after performer, we'll get you that performer, but then you got to use Ticketmaster. Part of the remedy can be they cannot require that anymore. They can't have those tying arrangements, those conditions, those requirements in their business dealings. It could also be a breakup, having Ticketmaster roll off of the Ticketmaster Live Nation business entity and be a separate entity.

56:29There could be non-exclusive arrangements where not just Ticketmaster selling tickets for a concert, but others are as well. SeatGeek and others can compete and be part of the ticket sales so that everyday people aren't forced to pay these sky-high prices with really terrible experiences. And there's the monetary damages as well. So a whole sort of menu of options that we're going to put before the judge. We think some combination of those, maybe all of those, are appropriate. based on what Ticketmaster Live Nation decided to do in terms of their illegal conduct.

57:08Brian Tyler Cohen:Thanks again to Jared Moskowitz, Alex Wagner, and Rob Bonta. That's it for this episode. Talk to you on Wednesday. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesley, and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five-star rating and a review. And as always, you can find me at Brian Tyler Cohen on all of my other channels, or you can go to BrianTylerCohen.com to learn more.