No Such Thing As The Metal Bloke

26:33Anna Ptaszynski:Right, yeah. How old was he in 65? Very young, very young. He was 69 when he died in 2016. And I can't, I'm now struggling to do the basic mathematics. So he would have been 18, 17 or 18. Wow. So he was very young and playing with a band. And the band was called David Bowie and the Lower Third. and it doesn't sound like it was a good audition. I mean, you know, I don't think it's too... I mean, when you're 18. Exactly. I can see the picture of him. He must have been playing the sax and singing, I think, possibly. Well, they did three songs because that's what you brought to the talent selection group.

27:07Anna Ptaszynski:One of them was by Bowie himself. One of them was by James Brown. The third one was Chim Chimery from Mary Poppins, which is a rogue choice. That makes 100 % sense to me. Like, if you think about his music, It is music that exists at the intersection between James Brown and Mary Poppins. Like, actually think about it. If you really think about it, there is like this interesting combination of black American music and English whimsy. And actually there is something of both of those in Ziggy Stardust. Well, if you've been on the talent selection group, maybe it would have gone differently. Another verdict.

27:45Anna Ptaszynski:I don't think the group will get better with more rehearsals. Just devastating. One of the most withering things I've ever They give them all the time in the world They're not going to change Terrible That was terrible and you've peaked It's a bit like Simon Cowell isn't it Would you say It's that kind of slightly withering Yeah yeah yeah And I don't think it was big dogs I just think it was random producers from across the beam Who were pulled in to assess And they assessed a load of different acts They came up with various quite ropey judgements On acts who went on to be huge but it's an audition it's at the very start of your career they don't all go well you know and he took ages to get successful I hadn't realised I think by 1969 so before he was at all famous he'd already been in seven bands many of which he founded then 1969 Space Oddity was rushed out to coincide with the moon landings and was like the theme tune for that and was huge but then he disappeared again and I don't think he had another hit for about four years yeah no he didn't disappear he was just simply he was living in Bromley oh yes which is essentially the same Sorry, he was in Beckett at that point But yeah, he was sort of That period of his life after he turns 18 He kind of gets very fixated on this Mime teacher Who is like a really, really Influential person in his life But also, it's worth seeking out Some of the kind of first album Which I think is self-titled Or maybe it's called Space Oddity It is, David Bowie It's worth checking out that era of it Because it is not I say this as a very, very big fan of his you've hidden you've hidden it well sorry no problem well of course beckerman is in bromley so yeah yeah yeah it was it's bad oh wow but it's sort of bowie at this point is he sort of goes through so many different iterations and yeah he falls in with he's he he goes studies at mime school then he the first album is sort of very like flower powery like tail end of summer of love hippie stuff but then the shift between that and the man who sold the world is extraordinary right it is an incredible transition he basically really gets into the velvet underground and that is the thing that kind of unlocks he's just trying all sorts of he's trying so much out yeah can i just say one thing on the mime thing because i found out a little about this this is insane so he falls in With this mime artist Called Lindsay Kemp Right And becomes so Entranced That Bowie nearly Abandons music For interpretive dance Yeah When he was Again Not very famous yet He opened For T-Rex He supported them On You know Tour As a one man Mime act Depicting China's Invasion of Tibet Brilliant And that is a challenge Like that's a challenge Right As a one man Yeah It's my favourite It's hard enough If there are a few of you You've got to think Outside the tiny Invisible box

30:43Anna Ptaszynski:Basically the T-Rex audience hated it For two reasons One, come on, we're here to see T-Rex And secondly, a lot of them were communists And very thrown out So this was a few months before Space Oddity came out He later wrote to John Peel Who'd seen this You decided the problem was that I was doing mime You didn't like mime And until I came here to America, I never realised that you were right Nobody in the world likes mime it is an insane period and listen thank god that doesn't exist because i imagine it doesn't now look higher it looks like mickey rooney and breakfast at tiffany's i imagine i imagine but the but weirdly that's you know lindsey kent was a huge influence on him creatively and they were lovers at the time when you look at things like ziggy when you look at the video for ashes to ashes even though that was sort of because he was also falling in with the new romantics in the early 80s you still see the influence of theatre and mine oh yeah definitely yeah it was it was I mean we loved him anyway but also it was really exciting because I went to school in Orpington down the road from the school he went to but he lived in Beckham and they tried to get him to come back like in the early 2000s he was like absolutely not when he went to America in interviews he would refer to things as being so Croydon if they were bad but he was that's why you know like the Buddha of Suburbia the whole novel is really about growing up in Beckham and Bromley and feeling depressed until you realise David Bowie lived there like how that like unlocks the protagonist's creativity and sexuality I was the same with Hilda Baker the Bolton comedian from the 1950s oh yeah I think everyone from Bolton you've only just started wearing green now one of the formative moments of his life came from that time in Beckenham slash Bromley where he's, so he's famously, his eyes sort of look like the different colours, don't they?

32:40And this has actually put me off him a bit and I messaged Dan Schreiber, cruel we're doing a podcast about David Bowie, who Dan Schreiber absolutely loves, but saying, I don't really like him. And I think it came from this. When he was 15, he had best friend George. They both fancy the same girl and George got a date with her and Bowie called George and said, listen, I've spoken to her and she doesn't want to go out with you actually, but she didn't want to say to your face. So George doesn't show up, then finds out Bowie's tricked him and then goes into school next day and Bowie's boasting about how he's now going out with this girl.

33:12So George, quite right, goes and clocks him in the face, in the playground, damages his eyeball. Said he really didn't mean to hurt him. But what meant to hurt him a bit?

33:23Anna Ptaszynski:Funny way of going about it. I meant to hurt him emotionally when I punched him in the face, yeah. Didn't mean to cause him permanent damage. But it gave him this condition called anisocoria, where one pupil is larger than the other. So his eyes aren't different colours. It's just one pupil's small, so it looks like his eyes are light coloured. And I really like this from an interview with a magazine. I think someone had written into the magazine with questions for Bowie. And one of the people said, hey, what would you say to that kid at school who punched you in the eye in case he's reading? And Bowie said, I'd probably say something along the lines of, it was great seeing you last week, George.

33:58Did I leave my lighter in your car? Because they remain very close friends That's cool That's good You said that he almost gave up to be a mime He also almost gave up to be a Buddhist monk Didn't he? Did he? Yeah And that's because he got in with some Buddhist monks In London But also he read a book The Ramper Story by Tuesday Lobsang Ramper Who Andy remembers as a friend of the podcast He's a big deal He is a big deal Because he was not a Buddhist monk He was in no way a Buddhist monk He was a plumber from Devon Who pretended to be a Buddhist monk And wrote about his life as a Tibetan monk Until people kind of came to his shows And said can you read this thing that's in Tibetan He said I can't really read Tibetan And I've never been to Tibet And he said oh it's not my fault I was possessed by the spirit of a monk When I fell out of a tree trying to photograph an owl That's right And then they said Yeah that's not true is it either And he went oh no no fine Actually it was all dictated to me By a Siamese cat called Mrs.

35:09Fifi Greywhiskers But the point is That a lot of the Buddhist Sort of things that was happening at the time And everyone getting into Buddhism Was down to this guy's book And he was completely That's amazing

35:22Anna Ptaszynski:Mrs. Fifi Greywhiskers the cat later wrote I think two of her own books Through Tuesday Lobstack Rampers and one of them is called Living with the Llama yeah yeah yeah that's true it's hard when a cat writes a book called Living with the Llama because I think you do have to clarify in brackets afterwards that you mean the llama as in religious llama you can do a lot with the cover art

35:45I'm afraid you are not getting away with a James Cameron black square on that one that it's essential that we clarify with the cover art

35:53Anna Ptaszynski:that's so funny I didn't know there was a Bowie Ramper kind of way of understanding that's amazing So what you Bowie fans, big Bowie fans, what's the view on the whole thin white duke, quite intense flirtation with fascism, Nazism, that kind of stuff? One word for the Nazi stuff. Your friend of mine, cocaine. If you watch the Alan Yentob documentary Cracked Actor, which is his US tour, I think in 76, 75, 76. You can't believe he didn't immediately drop dead. Yeah He was In a bad way The rumour is at the time That he was subsisting exclusively On a diet of cocaine and milk But he is in He is in a psych He's coped himself into a psychosis Yeah There's a bit in it Where he just starts going They're following me They're following me And he is Oh wow He is truly in A kind of psychosis Yeah I think people want To intellectualise it And say well He had this fascination With the United It's not any of that He did read a lot of books He did read a lot of books About the Nazis But he I think people want to talk about it as a kind of intellectual Like an extension of his interesting character And performance He was gapped out of his mind And I don't mean your friend Who's standing too close to you at a party And asking if everyone hates him I mean he was seeing things He was Like David Bowie was such an extreme party animal That he had to go to Berlin To clean up He had to go to Berlin To get drugs out of his system That's how many drugs he had in his system at that point.

37:28Anna Ptaszynski:Can I just say, reading lots of books about Hitler and the Nazis is not actually a sign of anything. That's just a sign of being a middle-aged man, all right? I'm currently ploughing through the last days of Hitler, and it's terrific. That's it, really. No spoilers, please. I saw him on the last tour he did in 2004, and he had something like a kind of heart valve problem about two months later and then he never toured again. And he sort of would make like these intermittent public appearances. But I went on my own. This was in a period where I was going on my own to see a lot of gigs. And I saw him and James Brown in kind of quite quick succession.

38:10Anna Ptaszynski:Oh, and Mary Poppins, I hope. And Mary Poppins. And the David Bowie gig is the only time someone asked me if I was lost and needed help. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. The only time. Are you okay? Are you lost? And I was like, no, I'm here to see David Bowie. And I've always carried resentment towards a man who was sat two rows in front of me wearing a Lou Reed Transformer t-shirt. And I, at the time, I remain a big Lou Reed fan, but I was really a big fan of the Lou Reed album Transformer at the time. And Bowie said, we're going to do a song by the Velvet Underground. And I cheered. Bear in mind, I'm at this gig on my own.

38:46And I assumed the man in the Lou Reed t-shirt would also cheer, and he didn't. and I was like, you're a fan of only Lou Reed's solo output? You've got no time for white light, white heat? Maybe he's just not a cheerer, you know? Well, he really made me look like an absolute twerp.

39:02Anna Ptaszynski:That is, I would say, the smallest grudge I've ever heard. Carried for the longest time. Because of how long you've kept something... It's 22 years. I still think about that guy and I'm like, that's the guy in the Lou Reed t-shirt.

39:22we should move on to our final fact of the show and that is james's fact okay my fact this week is that the swedish political party called the center party and the danish political party called left are both right wing are they trying to just nab sneaky votes no not really so i was reading an article on electoralreform.org.uk and it was a list of badly named parties and basically these parties all started off kind of left of center 100 150 years ago and things change like the democrats and republicans have swapped over a couple of times i think of what they believe right and also the the what's that window called overton the overton window move so people who were a bit left-wing or a bit right-wing and now more centrist or whatever and that's what's happened with these two parties which is the swedish center party and venstra which is the danish for left and the danish one is the main rice of center party and has been for 25 years and the center party it depends on their leaders because they are a little bit centrist but at the moment they're

40:30Anna Ptaszynski:more right-wing but you can't change the name it's easier to change your opinions i guess because everyone knows what the party is everyone knows the name really tricking anyone because everyone Everyone in Denmark knows this party. I like that you say it's easier to change your opinions. You're suggesting rather than change their names, they should just become left wing. I wasn't really suggesting anything. I hadn't finished that thought. It is a bit like if Krispy Kreme Donuts were like, we're plumbers now, but we've got a really strong brand identity. You're like, well, you could just change it.

41:00No, no, Krispy Kreme it is. Listen, I will say, in terms of tailoring this podcast episode to your guest. This could not be more clearly my internet searches. Electoralreform.org, James Cameron's Wikipedia page and a video of David Bowie talking about the internet. Denmark also has the radical left party, Radicale Vonstra.

41:22Anna Ptaszynski:Where are they? Where are they at? They're on the left, but they're the least radical of all the left-wing parties. Really? Something with radical in its name. It's centrist. It's so good. It is a problem. And listen, I am painting with a broad brush here and I understand there is more nuance to these things but it is sort of the problem of talking about Scandinavian politics because you're like, these guys are really right wing, they only believe in partially comprehensive state cover for I think the thing that distinguishes them is there are parties that there are basically parties that are like, that are socialist socialists and there are parties that are nationalist socialists When you say nationalist socialists that has at least we've been a few bucks at the bottom Yeah, there's still some consensus around some economic principles.

42:11I think there's some more divergence around.

42:13Anna Ptaszynski:So we believe that everyone gets a year's maternity or paternity leave, but we do also believe in invading power. Yeah, exactly. Is that it? I believe there's an element of that. There's a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment among certain parts of Scandinavia. So there's a guy called Rasmus Paladan, who's a former member of Venstre. He's probably the most famous right-wing politician in Denmark. and he's like burned Korans and stuff like that. But there's a group called Free Jazz Against Paladin that follows him around the country and plays jazz very loudly and very badly at all of his events. Is jazz the right...

42:48Anna Ptaszynski:I'm not saying they're doing it badly, but is jazz the right genre of music to... I suppose it's quite surprising, you know, it goes in new directions, which is quite useful. Famously anti-communist jazz, wasn't it? It was pushed by America to kind of stop communists from liking communism. Was that? Well, and also the musicians themselves were not aware sometimes, genuinely not aware. Nina Simone died without ever knowing that she - She was a CIA asset. Yeah, that an African tour of hers. Oh, God. What? Guys, you've got to watch a movie called Soundtrack to a Coup d 'Etat. Soundtrack to a Coup d 'Etat is an incredible film about these American state funded operations to send jazz musicians as kind of soft power missions around the world.

43:33It's one of the best documentaries I've ever seen. And they didn't know that they were being, they were pawns. Yeah, they didn't know where the money was coming from. But also, you know, a lot of the...

43:45Anna Ptaszynski:We've had another$300 million in the account. No one likes jazz. Sorry, what's the reasoning that the CIA stopped people liking communism? Specifically in the African continent, sometimes there were cover operations for the sort of traveling State Department delegations that would go out with them. But also a lot of these musicians did not have rights in their own country. And there's some really heartbreaking stuff in the documentary about Louis Armstrong and the kind of disgust that he feels. Because he does understand that he's being used as propaganda for a white government that is not giving him rights in his own country.

44:22It is really, really brilliant and sinister. And what was done to Lumumba in that country by Western governments in service of the mining companies, because they might have liberated these countries, but they did not take the huge mining companies out of those countries. And the cobalt in bones still comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo. And there are still Western countries that might not have colonized them in the conventional sense. but the large corporations that are exploiting these countries for their mineral resources are effectively financially colonizing them. And now this podcast has really taken the full Kumar turn.

44:59That's an exciting ride. But in the Soviet Union, the idea was that they had certain approved musicians and approved literature and approved all this kind of stuff. So if you shove in some jazz singers, some surrealist art, stuff like that, then people will start thinking in a non-communist way. That sort of freedom. Freedom.

45:21Anna Ptaszynski:Jackson Pollock, was he? Yeah, he was. They just wanted to get rid of him. That was very interesting. Some more weird names in politics. Have you guys heard or have we ever talked about the tiny Indian state of Meghalaya? Meghalaya? Meghalaya. This place is extraordinary. So there's a weird trend for weird names there. Like loads of people there call their kids weird names. No one really knows where it came from, just like people from this Indian state call their kids strange names. which means that people who run for political office often have weird names. So people who've run for political office there include Frankenstein Momin, Field Marshal Maupiang, as in first name Field, second name Marshal.

45:58Great. That's good. Billy Kidd Sangmar. And someone who's gained office there is Adolf Lou Hitler Rangsak Marak, who's an Indian politician of the National Congress Party. He was a minister in their government. He was asked if he felt awkward about it. and he said, I am aware at one point in time, Adolf Hitler was the most hated person on earth, but my father added Lou in between the Adolf and the Hitler, so that's why I am different. Andy, you were very disappointed when you got his biography, weren't you?

46:28Anna Ptaszynski:A lot more regional Indian politics than I had really bargained for. And the cover was just a black square. We really could have done with the clarification of some cover art there. I think it's interesting how political parties arose in the first place. I think they were invented in Britain. Certainly in Britain, it was the Whigs and the Tories. And that was the end of the 17th century. And it was all to do with the question of Catholic succession, which was a big deal for a long time. And it was very controversial. And the Whigs wanted that. It was about the Duke of York, actually. Should the Duke of York be in the line of succession?

47:01Anna Ptaszynski:And what do we think now? It's a debate that rages on. The Whigs are coming back going, I told you!

47:12Anna Ptaszynski:Yeah, Wiggs wanted him out and Tories were much more arch traditionalists and they wanted to preserve the succession. So what they were trying to conserve was the Catholic line of succession. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's maybe a bit upside down from what we think today. Were they called the Tories? They were called the Tories and not the Conservatives at that time. Tories was originally an insult. It's a kind of Irish bandit. And I think Wiggs is also a kind of insult. Every party name starts off as an insult and then devolves into actual name. A stupid douchebag poop party. Yeah, exactly.

47:43you've got to be careful the insults you embrace and the insults you cast aside but yeah and actually because we were talking about swedish politics um sweden was dominated by the hats and the caps for about 100 years they were the two parties and the caps were it was an insult so the hats were meant to be the like strong militaristic they were named after the big tricorn hats that like proper posh people had members of government military and then they said are you cat unite caps and they were referring to the you know this floppy like We really want to keep nightcaps. Really? And did they wear them?

48:14Like, did they embrace it and wear them on the campaign trail? I don't think they actually went into the trouble of sourcing nightcaps and embracing them. But they embraced their names, the caps, and they were like, they were the wigs and the Tories.

48:23Anna Ptaszynski:Are they still worn, would you say, nightcaps? You obviously do wear one. Well, I've got one, yeah, yeah. But I just want to know if anyone, I would be curious if anyone wears a nightcap. People wear bonnets to help manage curly hair. Yes, that's true. Bonnets are still used. Are they called nightcaps? I don't know. They're normally known as bonnets. Were they used to keep your head warm? Is that the point of them? I assume so, yeah. Because it's so much colder back in the day. I would assume that it is. The little ice age. If you still wear a nightcap to bed, podcast.qi.com. Absolutely. Send Andy a picture.

48:56If anyone's still wearing a nightcap, with love, they are listening to this one. Let's be honest. A big Ebenezer Scrooge number. That's one I want. That's one I want.

49:07Anna Ptaszynski:Do you want to come on upstairs for a nightcap? just two people sat in hats one of them looking confused and disappointed I'll get the warming pan I do like a frivolous party oh yeah I'm a big fan of the occasional protest parties one of them I mean the Wikipedia of frivolous political parties is terrific if you just want to read through so many places that have frivolous parties it's beer related very interesting as the Friends of Beer Czech Belarus Beer Lovers Party austria beer party australia lower excise fuel and beer party i just goes on germany norway poland romania ukraine they've all got a beer lovers party or a beer party there was definitely a light beer versus dark beer uh political rivalry as well i think in the late 19th century yeah um but i like in in denmark the union of conscientiously work shy elements which i don't think we've actually mentioned before founded by jacob howard in 1979 and so he they were demanding lots of mad stuff and it was a complete joke like better Christmas presents for everyone, Nutella for all army field rations, better weather, tailwinds on all bike cars.

50:14Better weather. It's Denmark. More Renaissance furniture in Ikea. Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course, you'd back it, Andy. But in 1994, he was elected, how God was elected, unexpectedly, really didn't expect to be, got 23 ,000 votes and it was a hung parliament. So suddenly he was in this extraordinary position of having the deciding vote in a lot of situations. So when the Lib Dems came in and did a coalition with the Tories, they said, well, we will do it if we can have one of our policies, which is proportional representation. Yeah. Which one did he go for? They genuinely did introduce Nartella into army elections for a while.

50:56Very good. That's amazing. I think it doesn't exist anymore. The Lib Dems didn't get PR over the line yet. So these guys are still technically one up on the Lib Dems. did they have a referendum about the Nutella it's an easier one to win isn't it he did say in a moment of foresight he made a portrait of him he got a portrait done of him and had it hung in parliament and he said he commissioned it to warn people that any crazy populist moron could get elected and this was in the early 90s

51:25Anna Ptaszynski:we learned a lesson we learned it too late there was a survey this year of places in the North Caucasus. And they asked for people who you think would be a good person who your leader espouses their views. And a lot of people went for Stalin. In fact, I think Stalin might have been the top respondent. But 4 % of people said that they wanted their leader to be like T-800 from the Terminator movie. And we're back. Wow. And we're back. And he, is that the baddie? Or is this the second Terminator? Well, this is the thing. He's the baddie in the first one and the goodie in the second one. He gets reprogrammed and he goes from being a baddie to a goodie.

52:08He's like Nick Clegg. I see, but the reverse. It's the old reverse Clegg. It's the old reverse Clegg. In the first one, he's trying to get people to go into the metaverse and in the second one, he's promising to get rid of student debt.

52:26The old reverse Cleggie.

52:33okay we should wrap up on that thank you so much for listening uh we have been no such thing as a fish and thank you to my co-podcasters james harkin andrew hunter murray and nish kumar nish kumar if people want to contact you where can they do it you can uh find me at nishkumar.co.uk and i'm mr nish kumar on instagram and some other platforms i think but um you can watch me doing 97 minutes of stand-up if that's something that you'd be interested in on YouTube or you can buy tickets for my tour or you can do both. No such thing as a niche. Thank you. Lovely stuff. And Andy and James, you also have social media profiles which we've mentioned lots of times before so I'm sure you all know them and you can contact the podcast by emailing podcast at qi.com or go to at nosuchthing on Instagram and if you want access to our secret special club which has lots of extra content we release our duel which is our listener feedback episodes on there and other exciting things as they come along just go to patreon.com slash clubfish to find out more about that but for now we will see you again next week goodbye