163. Forget Everything You Know About Sober Living Homes - Interview with Devana Cavé

27:55Natalie Palmer:Mm-hmm. And then how you would check on like what they need, like, is that the house manager reporting to this person came with no toiletries, no food? Yeah. So during their intake process, the manager would check in with them, like, do you need anything? How are you going to food? Do you have people have money and some people don't? It just depends. So if they have money, they usually are like, no, I'm good. I could get my own groceries. And if they don't, we're like, okay, let's go. We have like a whole slot full of stuff. And then we give them enough food to get in for you until they can get it.

28:28Natalie Palmer:Okay. What about parking? Like, do all of them drive? do you have a lot of people with dois who can't like i'm very curious if you're fitting 24 parked cars in front of the house smart not everyone has a car so sometimes in ways like sometimes if the girls house i'm like geez you know we have 18 girls in a house so sometimes i'm like 12 of you guys have a car and then other times it's like four have a car and other times it just depends on the group that's there at the time we live in on a street that is street parking So we have plenty of parking in our two driveways around the street. Yeah, we have plenty of parking at all the houses just in the driveways and on the streets.

29:12In my newest house, it's an acre. And it just happens to be that both my house spans across two streets. So there's two streets that come into my house. So in the back lot, we actually built like this 5 ,000 square foot parking lot area. um but just so they didn't have to park on the street but really yeah that house because there's a lot of county funded people they don't typically come in with cars and so i don't have a car that anybody see there a lot of them are now getting these electric scooters and buying's cool yeah so much cheaper than car insurance and you know all the stuff that comes with the car so they get around on some of them have really nice electric bikes that can drive on the streets okay cool

30:03Natalie Palmer:okay my next question is kind of like what do you look for in a property you own for now um what for you like what criteria do you factor in like potential parking um like what to you would make a good home if you're considering purchasing another one like what would you i don't know you know what I'm asking like what's a good investment here just how that's the location is it close to public transportation is it close to shopping close to somewhere they could get jobs easily where they could take the bus or walk or take their scoops or something um then I start looking then I kind of go down from there and I start looking at the side of the house uh and I usually tend to to go for six or more bedrooms okay and then can I add another bedroom can I um like for instance in my second house the master bedroom and well let me back up for a second so i also do six people to a bathroom so and that's like the county code in most places so it's to a bathroom you said okay you can determine how many people can be in a house so for instance if it's four bedrooms and three bathrooms then i know that only 18 people max could be in that house no matter how many people you could fit in the rooms or how big the rooms are um that doesn't mean 80 people can fit in the house because they could be smaller rooms but that's the max you could get into okay so um then i kind of go backwards from there like for instance i also think in california we we tend to build where i live a master bedroom has a bathroom in it and then maybe there's another bathroom in the hallway or something like that so i have to think well that master bedroom, at least six people could use, I mean, more than six people could use a bathroom, but that's just the ratio, right?

31:52Right. I'd have to think, I don't let people walk through other people's bedrooms. Well, only the people in that master bedroom can use that bathroom. So there are other bathrooms in the house that would fit the other people. If not, then I think of creative ways. Like in my second house, there's the bedroom next to the bathroom and then the master bedroom, and I was able to pop a door in that second one. So the two bedrooms now can use that bathroom.

32:16Natalie Palmer:So we turn it into like a Jack and Jill essentially. Okay. So I was able to do that in that one. Other houses don't have it in the master bedroom. They just have it in like two hallways. So it worked out good. So I look at things like that. If there's only two bathrooms in a house and one's in the master bedroom, that is just going to be a nightmare for me. So I always try to find three bathrooms at least one bathroom. What about like square footage? Is that something that the county cares about? No more than one person per like 150 square feet or something? Any rules around that? Yeah. So the standard is 50 square feet per bed.

32:59That's per bed. So a bunk bed counts as a bed. This is in my area. Other areas might be different. I go by the national standard because I just have really high standards with Miss Sober Living. So if I go at least a minimum of 50 per person. Okay.

33:15Natalie Palmer:50 per person, not per bed. That's a higher standard than what you have to do. Okay. And that's, so sorry. So who sets the standards? You said that there was a national like standard for sober living homes? Yeah. So the national standard is from NAR, N-A-R-R. okay and uh they have a they have like a national standards list of what they their higher expectations of what usually kidneys will ask for it so i just like to go with that standard over the normal 50 square i mean per bed okay and i just i imagine correct me if i'm wrong but that 50 square feet per person this is like for the entire house right so like a common area would be factored in or do you have to like really measure out like 50 square feet around each bed no i do a per bedroom so if there's 200 square feet in a bedroom then in my head four people could live in there comfortably okay now that might be a bunk bed i don't do regular bunk beds um a lot of people do bunk beds to fit enough people in the house my bunk beds that i do do custom built into like the whole wall with like staircases and stuff like wow wow I don't just do like the little metal bunk beds.

34:35So they're either single beds or if I have a bunk bed, it's like a, it's like a loft almost like they have curtains. It's like a staircase. It's all this thing. I get them custom built.

34:45Natalie Palmer:So people share rooms here. It's not everyone gets their own room. Could, do you have options where like someone could pay more for their own room or is it just like, this is you pay per bed and that's it. Um, I don't want an option. Maybe some people do. Uh, I just do it per bed. And then there's multiple people in rooms. There's anywhere between, this is going to sound crazy, but just hear me out. There's anywhere between two people in a room. And then my biggest room is seven people. But it's a huge room. And if you saw the bunk beds or staircases, it's super cool. And you don't even feel like there's seven people.

35:22Oh, my gosh. I mean, the ceilings are like 10 or 12 feet tall or something. So they have like really big. It's really cool. So it's not like they're shoved into this little room.

35:34Natalie Palmer:Can I ask like, how much does this cost to put in a like custom bunk bed? This sounds so cool. It's very, it's very expensive. All said and done, I think my bunk beds probably cost$10 ,000. Per? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. So when you're purchasing a property, so things that you may have to add to make it work for what you're doing would be like the Jack and Jill bathroom. So looking, is there potential to add another door? You're possibly adding more walls and more bedrooms just for more privacy. For that, I assume you would cut into like the living room. Like, do you really need common areas in your space?

36:20I do. I think they like to hang out and watch movies and stuff. Oh, yeah. Okay, great. I always like, let's see, in my big house, I have one living room, but I also turn the garage and do a whole like big TV sitting area, workout area. In my smaller house, I have two sitting areas or two like living areas. My girl's house has just one big one, but they have a salon room that they get ready in with makeup and stuff. So they're in there a lot. I make sure it's a lot of good common areas. That is just so cool.

36:57Natalie Palmer:Sorry to cut you off, but I really, my thought process would have been that a lot of people operating something like this would be almost like scared to let people get together like like i don't know i would think that there'd be fear around like oh the sense of community what are people going to talk about are they going to like encourage each other to go back to some bad behaviors but clearly you have not had anyone trash your places you've never had to evict anyone so what you're doing is working so do you see like that that having the common areas and preserving that is like part of the reason you have a high retention rate and people are staying for so long.

37:33Natalie Palmer:Yeah, I do. I think a lot of people think the problems that have addiction is sobriety, but it's actually connection. And so they survive with connection. A lot of people are like, how do you put it in their own room? That's actually detrimental because they isolate. And then that's when they get to use. It's also for safety. So if they have two people in a room, A roommate's going to pick up on something way faster than if somebody was in a room by themselves. And nobody knows that they're using drugs or drinking. A roommate could say, oh, hey, go check on him because he doesn't seem, you know, he seems like maybe something's going on.

38:07But they thrive with connection. That's the opposite of addiction. So, yeah, it's actually detrimental to just put them all in their own room when they're in a place like this where they're seeking that connection.

38:20Natalie Palmer:Sure, sure. I would think yeah it'd be so tempting to be like I can make two more bedrooms and put you know eight more beds in here and sell more spots but if that's undermining their whole success like yeah what are you even doing here yeah also the only way I take common spaces out is like like in my second house I had a dining room like which would happen like a full dining room kind of issue and then a full another dining room and so I was able to to take and put a wall up and make that normal dining room maroon without taking away a dining okay okay so if i'm an abstract kind of space where i'm like edit not really getting used two dining rooms right next to each other i can i'll do something like that but i won't take away like a full front round or something totally okay and i'll just cut you off yeah sorry you know, all my men's house have pools and stuff like that.

39:20So like, and I allow even the police to come over and they're all washed and everybody's yelled up. They can have swing parties with each other. They can have barbecues. We have barbecue. Like I want them to enjoy the right. I want them to know that there's so much more than when they were using and not feeling good, right that they actually can have fun and have a place that that they can just be together and

39:48Natalie Palmer:yeah hang out this is amazing um you mentioned that you have this wait list right now how do people how do you choose who's off the wait list is it just in order of when they came or do you take applications do you interview people and make sure they're going to fit with the group that's in there currently um so and right in this moment i'll have a waitress and it's with the county so the county kind of calls and says okay this person's coming out of rehab so they get first choice i i keep it controlled and do the the interview with them first to make sure that they are a good fit for our house but not just that they're a good fit for our house i want to make sure our house is a good fit for them because i want them to be successful and i don't want to just take whoever and then knowing maybe it's above our capability of handling or maybe their adders fever for it or else for certain mental health issues because I don't want to um I want them to be successful I don't want them to come in or set them up for failure so I always want to mention our house is also a good fit is that something that you I would imagine that that took time to figure out like day one, first time filling your very first property.

41:06Natalie Palmer:What was that like? And like, what have you learned today that is a good fit for you and vice versa? That first one, I remember very distinctly. It was so nerve wracking. I was trying to think of all the questions to ask, but I think it all comes down to like gut feeling, but also not just that feeling, but really now I have my questions down so good that I can tell if I need to refer them to a different place, like a higher level of care or something like that. That doesn't happen very often. Most people I'm like, yeah, sounds like this will be great. And the lots that aren't serious about the recovery will weed themselves out on their own.

41:46like they just so it kind of is a natural thing that we that we've established um yeah i've just been doing it so long i could get on the phone and i just have my you know my little format i go through and it's a pretty quick there's it's not like an hour interview or anything like that i'm just just trying to determine do they need to go somewhere else are they going to be okay to come

42:08Natalie Palmer:to our house i know a lot of times with like midterm rentals for example or even long-term rentals, you might know who's coming in like three months. Like a corporate stay, they'll say, I need accommodations three months from now, and you can book those in advance. How does this world work? I would think if somebody's getting ready to come out of rehab, it's a pretty quick turnover. What's the placement process like? How quickly do you need to get them in so that they stay on track? Yeah, it's not too crazy. So before when they were just prior to pay, they usually went to rehab for about a month.

42:48That's an average if they're doing private insurance to go to rehab. I would always tell the rehabs because I would know all the case managers and stuff and they would call me and say, I need to place this. So I would say, as soon as you get a person, call me by the way and I'll put them on my list. So you know about 30 days in advance. Yes. I know when they're coming out, if a bed opens, I could call you and say, okay, I've got a bed open for this person. Now with county contracts, it's probably, it could be anywhere from the same day, which doesn't happen very often, but it's not been the other day where a county worker's like, do you have a bed open today?

43:25I'm like, I do. Or no, somebody was leaving. I'm like, yes, I can, I can get them in somehow. We work today. I always try to accommodate, you know, if there's something that they need, but, uh, usually it's like, okay, they're coming out on on the 20th. Like I just got one today that will be out on the 20th, but I have somebody else leaving either on the 18th, 19th or 20th. So they'll go in that bed. My turno, like I don't have beds open for two weeks while I'm waiting for somebody. It'll be that somebody is coming as soon as that person.

43:55Natalie Palmer:Okay. And that's just like, because of your, how many connections you have and the wait list that you have, that's how it's working. Would you say other sober living homes may have longer gaps or is this like pretty common yeah I think um yeah it all depends on the house and how they're ran and their reputation and and all of that the referrals and stuff like that could be it could be where people have longer gaps so I don't want to I don't want everyone to be like oh my gosh I'll have no gap if I go out do that perfect it'll all fall into place yeah the next thing I do want to say that is always important for me to stay on these things is don't get shiny object syndrome and and hear this and go oh my gosh i could go do this i of course i i'm an advocate i sit on help pains and boards of the silver living network and our coalition and stuff but advocate for quality uses if you're going to get into this do it because you want to help and you want to pay money it's great to do both but have a balance of that don't get in it to it just for the money because it will show because you won't put your heart into it you won't put an amount of money back into the house to make it stay beautiful and like like for me if the dish towel looked grungy i get new dish towels or i replace the rugs a lot of owners might not put the money back into it and then that's when the house was kind of start looking like grungy if i don't for lack of a better word um if you're gonna get into this do it because you care about addiction and possibly having a business.

45:28Natalie Palmer:Yeah. Yeah. I love that answer. That brings up a question I wanted to ask you because everyone's always talking about passive, passive investing and passive income. I would love to know your like honest take on how passive or not something like this is. Like once the house is full and you've got your house manager, it sounds like you're still pretty involved. Like if you find out somebody needs food, you're picking up a bag of groceries to get them through the week, or is that now the house manager's job? And then also things like placing. You said literally today, county called you and you have to get the place ready.

46:04Natalie Palmer:So what does your schedule look like operating four of these? So I have a lot of help doing this 11 years. So like I said, I have really good systems and procedures. I have nine amazing managers because that's just what I choose to have. Other people might have one per house maybe somebody just has a house lead i don't know how however other people do it differently i also have a really amazing assistant that does so much for me she's on all of our channels when the guys at the house say give up give the list of supplies for the month that they need my manager orders it has it deliberate i don't have to run around and do all that anymore that being said i did it for a long time um because i just loved being fluid of it and I loved being over there all the time.

46:50So I chose to do it. I probably could have gotten an assistant a long time. It's kind of like to be involved. Now I just so busy, I can't be as involved as I was before on like everything. But I think I choose when I want to go over now. I will say in the beginning, if you're going to start one, the first year is not going to be passive out. Like it's going to be where you need to be on top of your manager. You have to remember your managers are in recovery as well. And so you have to make sure that everything's on the up and up and everything.

47:22Natalie Palmer:I did not realize that. So your managers are all people in recovery too. You're not hiring someone like for a job that's just getting the discounted housing. I hire people who are in recovery because they know, they know the manipulation, they know the signs, they know all of that. And you can't fool them. Sure. I mean, out of business school, lots of managerial position or something. Yeah. No. And I'm sure that your tenants or what do you call the people living there? Tenants? Do you have another word for it? House guests. Oh, house guests. Okay. Your house guests. For them, they probably appreciate somebody that's been down the same path and understands the world they're coming from.

48:08Natalie Palmer:So, okay. I did not realize that. I was wondering like, where is this a job description you're posting somewhere? um so most of your house managers then have they almost like graduated from being with you at this point they lived there they came in as a house guest and now they're a manager yes i i thought in the moment was in my house no once uh maybe a manager says okay i'm ready to move out and on my own then i look for the most responsible person in the house it kind of's your train and that higher but my managers have been with me for a long time my first house I think my manager's been six and nine years like those are my managers and then my girl's house is going on five years and then my uh fourth house they've been with me yeah for three four years at my other houses and I moved to this house and then my newest managers have been with me going on like a year so okay yeah They've all been with me.

49:07Nine years.

49:09Natalie Palmer:And I have to ask, and I hope this does not come off as like an insensitive question, but in nine years, do they feel like they want to go live on their own or like they want to get married or start their life or like they just like what they found and they know that that's what's keeping them grounded? So interesting story. When he was married and he was really bad at his addiction, she actually, he wanted to end his life. She found him in the garage. so this is the same wife like he's been married through his whole oh my god wow and then got him into rehab and um and then he's only gonna be for a month and so but then after being in my house for a month he's like i'm not ready to go back but and so they worked on their marriage through the first few years of him staying there and he would go home like on the weekends and come back and it's just a great spot.

50:00They're still worried. He goes out to every other weekend. He does this quite a bit more where he helps her with the bills, but he's got a job down here and this is like his 100 % safe place. He's like, I still, every year he's like, maybe I'll double next year. And so then every year he's like, hopefully one more year I'm going to stay here. It's almost like he just, he's got, he manages, he loves the house, he loves all the guys. He loves giving back to the guys, but he also has that. but I think it's just the way they worked it out where it's nice that she gets and maybe like during the week, every other week.

50:36And then they have a great time together when he goes up there. And, uh, I mean, every year I'm expecting him to live that home.

50:44Natalie Palmer:That's going to be such a big loss when he does. I am shocked right now. So he's fully married, owns his own house and just still found a way to keep making this all work. what i didn't make our same stuff he's been tired and he his family lives up uh in the next county and every weekend he goes up there and he stays there with his wife and and she helps other kids with their grandchildren but he he always tells me he does the same thing he gives me a year he's like okay one more year i'm gonna be here and um he just loves he's he loves having this like little thing that he manages guys and has new guys coming in and he takes new meetings and he he has this whole little thing and then he gets to go home twice does he have kids or these his like de facto children now he's adopted in the house all grown like yeah they're all grown um and then i have managers that never had kids um and then i have managers who have young kids like one of them's leaving this weekend to go three hours away to visit his kids for the weekend so and they're little.

51:54So they're all in different spaces of life.

51:59Natalie Palmer:Yeah. For you, I know you said a lot of them, maybe it's typical to have a shorter lease with something like this, but you have people staying two to three even longer years. What is your goal? Is it your hope to see them graduate and leave? Or are you just thinking, as long as they need me, I'll be there for them, whatever that timeline is? well for like i would say the first nine years that was my thought process like it's not my space to say when you need to leave or when you don't need this anymore um but the last couple years with things changing with the county and different contracts it was brought to my attention and i in so now i'm kind of like i struggle with this uh i'm like that i like i don't know if i want to get into where they have a time limit right like six months or something like that because it's really hard for me to start thriving in my house.

52:50I find that. But somebody said, yeah, but you get to help so many more people. And we have so many resources that you can help. You can help so many more people than if you had just 10 people in a house for five years, which makes sense to me, right? But it's really hard when they do have that time limit. I'm like, oh, I wish you could get such a great garden loss. You're thriving and now it's time to move on. So I have to look at it in both ways. some of them need that extra time um but then also what i noticed is when they are there for a year two years or three years they're working and just living there and and they could go it's just their comfort zone so i find it's like i'm not to make that decision this year to be like okay guys you guys are people you guys are ready to go and we're gonna bring in some new people that need it today.

53:41Natalie Palmer:It's got to be hard today. That's like a parent, right? I mean, my kids are young, but I'm like, oh, the day they leave is going to be heartbreaking. But that's how I'll know I've done my job. So I'm sure it feels similar. Devana, I absolutely love this episode. This is so different from, you know, usually what we talk about wallpaper and like crazy stuff with short term rentals. But I wanted to bring you on because I think what you're doing is still tying in hospitality and guest experience within this niche. I really want to link the resources that you mentioned. So NAR was one of them, N-A-R-R.

54:17Natalie Palmer:And then you also mentioned you're on the, did I catch that right? You're on the board of like a sober living. What is that? Like any resources for somebody who wants to get into this? I'd love to link all of that in the show notes. Yeah. The sober living, that's a national organization. I sit on the executive board of that and then uh um my website is uh the house of courage.com the house of courage house of courage.com that doesn't sound right i don't know that sounds very nice right um instagram is uh devonna invests it's devonna it's another of the most things about the houses there um but yeah it's an interesting thing it's not for everybody but if you have more helping people or having a business at the same time it's amazing this is fascinating and yeah I'm sure people have so many questions this is again such a new world from what we've talked about and we've barely scratched the surface so I encourage people to go follow Devon on Instagram and then I'll link all those other resources you mentioned but thank you so much for just being such an open book about all of this yeah I want to say this too just to tie the hospitality in to to uh when they come into my house i want them to feel like they're coming into like a hotel or like a airbnb or a short-term renting uh their bed's made they have some stuff waiting on their bed for them i want to say what because then everybody will go like john our bed it's like chancing them all the lenders will be like do they have i'm like yes when they come their bed has to be made they have to have their pocket down their bed and i want them to just go okay they still sleep and then i can be somewhere i don't have to worry the next however many months for years whatever so even even that is like just above and beyond like what you're investing in the bunks and like this custom experience you've figured out um i don't know every like every detail you put so much thought into i'm still amazed that you do one fridge per four people.

56:24Natalie Palmer:I lived in a sorority house and we had one fridge for like 16 of us. So God bless you just on that alone. Yeah. Thank you. Don't do some stuff like that. I just get like a bunk bed and put it in there. Mine and have like a whole contractor. It's a whole design we designed. It's like a, it's a big project, but for me, it's worth it because I like aesthetically, I just like to walk into my houses and, and I just love the aesthetic part of it as well. So yeah, it's way different than most of them. You clearly take so much pride in all of this. So yeah, everyone go follow her on Instagram, check out her website, and you'll be able to see kind of what you've done with all the properties too.

57:03Natalie Palmer:All right. Thank you again, Devana. We'll put all those links below. Okay. Thanks, Natalie. Bye. And with that, it is now checkout time. Thanks for listening and I'll see you back here next week. Lastly, as Airbnb hosts, we all can appreciate a good five-star review. So you already know a great review on this podcast would mean so much to me. Please subscribe, review, share, and connect with me in the show notes below. Bye.

57:47you