185. You Are Wrong About Paid Ads! Interview with Emily Lethgo

22:32Natalie Palmer:As far as one of the other things on your checklist was, you know your guest avatar right did I quote that that correctly okay so what about properties that have multiple avatars like there are some that work really well as a couples retreat but you could also bring young kids like are you guys doing two separate like ad campaigns for that and a b testing those yes so that's that's what's great about ads too because like you can get really granular really specific with every everything that you're talking about so in the copy in the creative. And then with the targeting aspect, I mean, you can get so specific and to see if it's working, to see if it's bringing in the right leads that they're actually clicking on the ad.

23:13You can do freebies as well, which were direct booking for like the property side. We love to do like a 10 % off discount or something that way they're clicking, they're filling in their name, their email, you know, possibly their phone number. If you do text message marketing. And that way we're able to see, okay, wow, we reached the right demographic here. I would say the more specific, the better that you can really hone in on things. So yeah, you would just split it apart and you would be able to do different copy for your family versus more of a couple's, even though it's the same property.

23:50Natalie Palmer:Okay. And then is that something that your agency does? Like if you see that, you know, from the couple's content, this type of ad showing a couple is doing better than just like interior shots. Are you guys then re-strategizing like let's go back to the property and shoot more like this? Or would you already have in your library and just phase out the other ad and be putting more money into showing this one? Like what is the iteration and like adjustment process look like? So for the creative, I would say it's more general, I would say like it's more property focused and more experience property focused.

24:29Now, I guess you could be really specific. Like if, if it was just a huge, like pet friendly stay and they were like all decked out with pet things, then that could be different. Or like a couple's like super romantic getaway, like one bedroom. I think it just really depends. But usually when places are that specific on their guest avatar, we're probably only creating that one ad campaign for them that's so specific. But if it's more of like families or multi-generational or, you know, friends, then we can play with the creative without changing the creative too much. It's more in the copy and then the targeting, I would say.

25:08But yeah, I think it's just so much trial and testing, especially in that beginning. And so that's where you have to be like patient with your ad spin and just hold on to that long, long-term vision of, okay, this is going to work out. We're just going to have to test it out to, to make these tweaks and adjust.

25:27Natalie Palmer:In your experience, obviously I'm sure every property and portfolio is different, but how long does it take typically to see like, okay, we finally found the ads that are really working for this property. Every time we show this one, like we get a booking, like how long does that take before it's like very calculated what you're doing? I would say I mean, yes, it really depends on the property and then the direct booking. But I would say anywhere between like 30 to 90 days is like a solid timeframe because there's just so many tweaks with every level of it, even down to the direct booking site.

26:08Like, okay, are we getting tons of traffic there? And then they're just falling off, like what's happening. We need better copy. We need a quicker, you know, button clicking, like something, something's off there. So we will try to diagnose everything that we can. But yeah, I would say like anywhere between like one month to three months, like you should definitely be getting a direct booking. Another thing I just thought of that's really cool with ads is midweek stays. I know that can be a pain point for a lot of people and trying to you could create an ad about a midweek stay. Like if you have a lot of weekend bookings, but you're lacking on those midweek, but we have to talk to that person and like, why do they, why do they want to stay?

26:52Is it a discounted rate maybe or something along those lines? You can just get so specific and then you can turn ads off. If you're good, you can turn them back on when you need them. Oh, yeah.

27:03Natalie Palmer:So you can almost pre-make like a library of different ads that get triggered, last minute cancellation ad, the midweek opening ad. Okay. And then you can just, Hey, right now we're good. We're the whole next few months are reserved, but like you can turn those on as needed. And retargeting is really key to just making sure that we are staying in front of, I know that we've all experienced that where we accidentally clicked on an ad and now we can't stop seeing it. And so we can do that with our properties of retargeting anybody that landed on our, on our booking page, but never booked, we can just keep showing up in front of them.

27:42Natalie Palmer:What are you doing to capture leads who come and are not ready to book beyond the retargeting and just, you know, cookies on their site that knows to show the ad again? What, what is like the funnel look like to make sure that they stay engaged? Right now, I would say the, the thing that we're seeing work the most is like a lead capture form that's built in meta. So it's super easy. I'm sure we may have all like tried this out to where you click on an ad and then it says like, do you want to auto fill your information where it's like your name and email to get like to go view the page. And so we'll see like a discount, like a 10 % off or something, whatever the owner is comfortable with doing, like maybe it's$100 off a three night stay or something like that.

28:28and then they will opt into that discount, but maybe they don't book. Well, now we have their email and we can add them to our email marketing campaigns and kind of start to, you know, just nurture them more. And then retargeting is where we'll catch them again without really knowing specifically. But if they clicked on that, we're going to keep showing them our ads.

28:51Natalie Palmer:How are you measuring a return on ad spend with this? Because, you know, I think of like an e-commerce company that's showing ads, they can tell like, hey, we put$5 ,000 into ad spend this week and we got$40 ,000 in sales. Like it's very easy to calculate. But with something like this, you might have people booking for this weekend. You might have people booking for three months from now, for six months from now. Like how are you measuring, you know, based on the amount you spent and how seasonal our industry is, how much dynamic pricing can change what people are paying? Like what's a fair way to even evaluate ROAS?

29:31Yeah, that's a great question. So I would say for just like a general example, let's say that you spent$1 ,000 on your meta ads and then that generated$5 ,000 in direct booking revenue. So that's a 5x ROAS. And so I would feel good about that. So you don't want to be able to, you don't want to say like this got a hundred thousand impressions and that you would rather be able to say this, we spent$1 ,000 and we were able to get $5 ,000 booking. And so that would be a$200 cost per booking. If we did$1 ,000 generated five bookings from that, basically you're spending$200 to get, to get a booking.

30:16And you kind of have to look at it with the whole brand building again of, you know, if you, if that is kind of where you're at, it's like, let's keep working and refining and see if we can get that cost down to keep that direct booking at the, you know, and keep increasing our ROAS. That would be a great way to do it. But yeah, I would say if you're, it's hard to say a for sure number on, you have to look at your nightly rate and what you're spending and then how much is an average booking for you. But I would say that's kind of how we start to look at it. Okay. Okay.

30:55Natalie Palmer:Yeah. I just, you know, imagine like, or I guess like one question I have with this is when you have, you know, a$20 lip gloss that like some companies selling through paid ads, it's like very easy to just see like, this is the price of the product. Maybe they do like a buy to get one free special, but like the product pretty much stays the same price. And so I think it's very easy to see like, hey, we put X amount more, we'll get X amount more. And it's just with short term rentals, like you're running ads in August for your, you know, let's say you're like a ski resort, a reservation, you're running ads in August, you might be getting a ton in bookings right now because they're pre planning for winter season.

31:38Natalie Palmer:But then in December, like nobody's booking anything for shoulder season in April. And so I just, yeah, I feel like it would be very frustrating. Like, I guess I'm asking you to like give encouragement to owners who are maybe like not sure how to track and measure this. Like it's a long game. So is it more, is it even worthwhile to be tracking your return on ad spend like quarterly or are you really like looking at it over the whole year? It's just so hard to like measure with the functionality. Yes, I would say there is, you know, I think it just takes time and takes patience to see it. But definitely, like if you've been in it, like, let's say, every quarter or every six months, you can refer back to it.

32:23But definitely from a year standpoint, that's really cool to be able to view like, okay, we spent this much, we got this much in direct bookings. and you can really see the correlation there. And then from year to year, like we have a couple of clients we've been with well over two years. And so that's our favorite like long-term clients because this is a long-term game. And so being able to see the ROAS and the changes year from year, month to month, quarter to quarter, and just really being able to track. But you'll start to see on Meta, on the dashboard, you can see the cost of the lead to get there.

33:00And so that's where we can kind of catch things. If the lead starts to go up super high, we can be like, okay, this ad is not working like we need it. And we can make pivots there. So it's not something like you're going to get down a quarter of the year and like, oh gosh, we spent all this and we didn't get any bookings.

33:20Natalie Palmer:It's been tweaked as you've been going. So fast. You know, we do want things to run a little bit of time, but not too much time where it's just like, we clearly know this isn't working and we'll turn this and we'll tweak it. So yeah, I would say that you do have reassurance in that way of knowing when you spend X amount of dollars, you should start seeing that return. You shouldn't be just spending, spending, spending and be like, oh, no clue about my direct bookings or if this is working. Right. Okay. And then it's just like, oh, well, it's not my peak season yet, but you're just like flushing money away.

33:55Natalie Palmer:Yeah. Yeah. And I would say the seasonality, I mean, I know that there's seasonality, but I do think that ads help because I feel like you don't have to be a victim of the seasonality as much. You know, when you're on these platforms, even organic social media, you're leading up to the algorithms. Same with Airbnb. It's all an algorithm that you're just hoping that you show up to the right people. and so with the ads we can really you know refine our messaging why do they want to stay there even though it's off season maybe it is a discounted stay maybe it's because oh it's like it's not as busy with people you know it's a better experience if you come on the off season so we can we can paint that picture in the ad and then direct people with the right audience with you know the location and all of that that's such a good point too because yeah when you are on just the OTAs, let's say you are a, you know, cabin in a ski resort town, you're basically waiting for people to be like, Oh yeah, it's going to be winter soon.

35:04Natalie Palmer:I should probably start looking and go to Airbnb and find what we're doing for, for winter. But if you're getting ahead of it and sending them the ads before they even thought about where they're staying for winter, you're, you're totally right with that point. Like, you know, maybe there's ways paid ads is like a way to like regain control of that and not just be victim to when it pops into your hypothetical customer's mind. Yeah, for sure. Back to the influencer marketing. I know we touched on creative and you talked about the difference between having influencers or doing user generated content.

35:37Natalie Palmer:How do you guys evaluate whether it's worth it to, well, first of all, do you pay influencers or are you only like doing free trades with them? Like how do you even approach and influence our client? So we act as the coordinator on behalf of our client. And so we will do every, cause a lot of times I've realized a lot of the hosts don't really know what they should be looking for. They get pitched a lot, you know, in the DMs or something by people, but they're like, they don't know if it will be worth it, who this person is, what they'll actually get out of it. And so we come to be kind of the matchmaker, if you will, between our client and a potential influencer content creator.

36:19And we do all the vetting and we do the contracts. We are very clear on, hey, these are the deliverables because we want to make it a great experience for the influencer too. And have them like say, this is what you're getting out of it. This is what we need. Here's the dates we agree upon. Everything is just very seamless. And how we do this is we search through different social media platforms. we check their engagement rate, but we also check manually. Like we go and look at their posts and we look at their comments. We look at how their other posts perform and who's actually engaging. One thing I've noticed that I think can be a big red flag is if you find like a travel influencer and other travel influencers are just commenting on their stuff, they're just like trying to help each other perform better, which is great.

37:15But that's not your customer. That's not who's actually going to book your stay. So you just want to be mindful, like, is the influencer having people comment on their, their content? Generally, are they people that are just like, you know, are they moms? Are they families? Are they grandparents? I think like, who are those people that are engaging? So that's a huge indicator that we look for. So sometimes our influencers will have smaller followings, but their engagement is really great. And their engagement is from people that we feel confident are actually potential bookers for our clients.

37:52And then, of course, you want to be mindful of like the demographic area too. Are they actually going to travel to the property, the people in their audience? And so we look for that. And then we'll just get really crystal clear on, you know, this is the comp to stay. That's what we try to negotiate. If the influencer has a large following that's very engaged, sometimes we'll consider paying for the stay. But we also let them know in the negotiation process, we tell the influencer, hey, this is a comp to not stay. This would cost normally this X amount of dollars, you know, the cleaning fee, the owner is going to cover that.

38:32So we try to tell them how much this stay is valued. Right. are getting that value because I know that they are working, but we also hope they'll enjoy their stay and, you know, the benefit of getting to stay at this potentially like luxurious property. And so we really help them do that. Another thing that we're implementing, I think is fun for our agency is we're going to start gifting our influencers like a little like welcome thing. So, so we're using that hospitality part and being like, thank you for getting this content. Like it's such a value to us and we want them to feel just as valued and appreciated.

39:11And so not that we don't want to pay them. It's just we want to see we want them to see their value in that call to stay. And we hope that it's just like a mutual partnership that we're able to help each other. And so we've had a lot of success with our influencer collaborations, just bringing new traction to our social media platforms. They've loved working with us. We have tons of Google reviews of how like they just really enjoyed working with Casey, our influencer coordinator. And so it's a seamless process. She's there to kind of, you know, talk them through the whole thing, get the contracts, tell them like, hey, we need the first reel posted by this date.

39:48We need these stories posted here. And then we also collect all the footage that they were able to get at Thursday where we can repurpose it. And that's huge for our clients too.

39:59Natalie Palmer:Okay. Okay. So the deliverables are very, very clear. Like first post by this date, the real needs to be X seconds long. Like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And we love to have like, they get creative control over it. Like we want them to - They need to sound authentic to what their audience will like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With, you mentioned the gifting, how are you executing that? Is that like gifting at the stay? Like it becomes like an unboxing moment or that's just like you're sending them like a thank you package after? So we just started this and we're about to do a second collaboration with one of our influencers.

40:34And so we're thinking about sending it to his home address and then having him have like, however, if he wants to show that on his social media, great. But we just wanted him to have it kind of between his collaboration. So he already completed one. And then before his second one, we want to gift him some sort of special thank you from us. Okay, okay.

40:55Natalie Palmer:I thought it was like I was like imagining like it's like becomes part of the gift experience like at this day like they're opening like a robe or something but then I fear if somebody books from that post are they going to be expecting that same treatment that is true you kind of run into like yeah I was worried if we sent it to the property but the logistics and that might yeah not work out as well as I envisioned but if it's at their home address I think we can control that a little bit better. Yeah, yeah. So that's a good point too. So when you find a really good, because I think most hosts who are entertaining an influencer collab, they're getting a DM or they're getting a message on Airbnb saying like, hey, I'm an influencer with X amount of followers.

41:40Natalie Palmer:Like, could I stay for free? And they almost like don't know what to do. But you guys are, by now it almost sounds like you have even like a few tried and true that you've had good results with. And so if you have a new client, It's like, don't even bother with those ones. I mean, maybe they can forward that inquiry to you to review it, but you guys already have ones that you've seen success with and it'll be okay. We're going to call this guy again. We already have a good relationship. And if he comes back, we know that you're going to get what you want out of it. Yes, exactly. Yeah. We, we are kind of building our Rolodex of influencers that we have on, on our like wait list.

42:14And if we need them for, if their audience, if the location, if the demographics, if all of it makes sense, then yes, we are collecting this list of, hey, they were awesome to work with. They met their deliverables. They had great results from their content. Then they're like on our list that we can call up.

42:32Natalie Palmer:Got it. Okay. So you mentioned you have Casey on your team. Who else is on your team? How are you running all of this as a mom of four with a seven-month-old? So yeah, tell us. So our team is small but mighty is what I like to say, because they really are, we're such a team of, I want it to always feel like when we have a client that they feel like they're our only client, you know, because I think that's a big thing for people hiring agencies. They're always worried they're just going to be another number, you know, and I don't, our clients don't feel like that at all. Like they have their own Slack channel and we are kind of all in there.

43:12we all have a hand in what's going on. So I have an executive assistant, which her name's Laura, and she's kind of the glue of everything. And then we've got a graphic designer, Stephanie, we have Karen and Allie who are engagement specialists. So they are the ones like logged into the client's account messaging, like doing all the DMs, comments, responding, doing it. stories. Yeah. They're like, and then, and then we have video editors as well. And those are assigned per client. So like if you, you have one editor that's kind of, you know, doing a consistent editing job for all your videos. And then, yeah, we've got McKenzie as our last one.

43:54She's our strategist. And so me and her work closely together to develop strategies and to, you know, she'll, she's on the strategy calls and we kind of bounce ideas off of each other. But what I love is we meet every week as a team and we're always like collectively collaborating on all the clients. Like, oh, did you see that posted really well? Like, how can we tweak this? And so it's just a great team. I've always hired based on like people I like and enjoy being around. And you feel that. I think when you come on as a client of ours, we all just love working together and love working on short-term rental client accounts.

44:30And so that's kind of, that's the whole team.

44:33Natalie Palmer:What does your schedule look like? Like Monday through Friday, how are you spending time between like family and work obligations, even delegating? It's still a lot being the one, you know, calling the shots. Yeah. Yeah. I've always said, like, I feel like I have been forced to delegate way sooner than like most people would feel comfortable, like hiring people and all of that. Like I hire well before it like makes sense maybe, but it's because of having four kids. It's like I just I have to delegate and learn to kind of stay in my sweet spot. And then everything that I can delegate, I should because they can probably do it better, you know, and and it's just off my plate.

45:14And then I can focus on the most important things for me to focus on. And so like my schedule, I'm also homeschooling part time. Wait, you know, I homeschool too.

45:25Natalie Palmer:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we're starting our co-op in a couple of weeks. Okay. Okay. I don't know. A girl. I need to talk to you on how this is. So I started, I tried to homeschool full time. And what I realized, I tell people, I'm like, I, I realized like, I love, I wanted to homeschool because I wanted more time with my kids. Yeah. But I don't really like teaching them. So I realized that pretty quickly. And so we've joined a hybrid homeschool program. So basically they go to school three days a week and then two days they're at home and I homeschool. But at school they have their teacher and their teacher develops all the lesson plans.

46:06Like she sends home everything that I have to do with them at home. So it feels very doable. It feels like there's already a plan in place and I'm kind of following a checklist. And then, you know, we still have lots of flexibility. My husband, he's off on Fridays. So we get more family time that way. So I would say for my calendar, I pretty much like my team knows Tuesdays are kind of like I'm not as available. I'm with the kids like doing homeschool stuff. And then while they're at school, I'm really like locked in focus. I still have my baby at home with me. But, you know, during naps, it's like, okay, I'm just, I feel like very productive because I'm like, I use the toggle app and it's like, it times me on tasks.

46:50I'm like, okay, go. I got to like walk this lot really fast. I would say calls are challenging, but I just, I always try to make sure I have like a sitter that can come by if I have a longer call. And then we've got our team meetings. All of us have young kids. And so, you know, we try our best to like show up on our team call undistracted. But a lot of times somebody will have a baby in the background. And I honestly, I love that. Like that's what I've built is to have moms being able to have that flexibility and be more present with their kids and, but still have an income, you know?

47:25Natalie Palmer:It's funny you say this because I have the same thing. There are certain calls where I'm like, okay, my mom needs to come over or like somebody has to be here. Like this call, I cannot have a kid in the background. but then like our level up team calls like oh god yesterday we had a level up team call and I'm potty training Grayson right now and so he's just been running around the house naked and it's just like on the call it was like he started to pee on the floor and I was like run to the floor you know and like Tatiana's just like laughing and like the rest of our team all has young kids too so like it wasn't a big deal but it's just I'm like wow like this would not fly with like certain calls like I have a threshold in my head of like can I bring a kid onto this one yeah and this one like absolutely not yes lock the doors be in another room yeah yes that is so so my life too right now oh my gosh okay I need to talk to you more I didn't realize you were homeschooling as well but yeah so we're starting a co-op so it'll be really similar like Tuesdays and Thursdays will be at that.

48:26Natalie Palmer:And then I'm going to try. Do you feel like you need to homeschool two full days with them being in school three? Because I was hoping to only homeschool Mondays and Fridays. And then my in-laws take the kids Wednesday. So that's like my one day to like shower through work and then co-op Tuesday, Thursday. So I was like, maybe I can get away with four days a week total. Yes, I think you definitely could. We were kind of doing that when I was full on homeschooling and me planning the curriculum and everything, we were able to do it in less days. And like, even on the Tuesdays, it takes, I like to spend more time like one-on-one with each kid.

49:05Otherwise I get like overwhelmed when I'm trying to do it all of them at once because I've got third grade, first grade and kindergarten. And so I, it took us about like, I would say around two and a half hours on Tuesday, like just sitting down knocking it all out but then it's so much fun because there's flexibility like I took Kate to piano lessons and you can just you know have more flexibility in that way I really enjoyed it especially like what you're saying with the co-op like just getting plugged in with community and stuff like that and having that flexibility is so awesome and leaning into what the child is interested in and what their strengths are and like focusing more on that is really awesome too.

49:49Natalie Palmer:Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm so excited to start all of that, but it's going to be a very like new adjustment. So yeah. Just how do you like plan your year, I guess? Like at this point, are your like hybrid days like pretty set? I feel like I've, you know, with like maternity leave and like we both have, what are our babies are like 10 days apart. Yeah. It's like so hard for me to even just like plan out my year. Like I feel like things change. And Noah, the moment I get into a schedule, it's like a new thing has shown up and it all shifts again. Noah, my baby, he's like refusing a bottle completely right now.

50:29So just nursing a hundred percent. And so we've had to cancel so many trips or just been like, okay, he's going to go with us on this one. And so I've definitely felt that this year already. So the school, the program is like very kind of more on a school system. So I do have that calendar and that schedule, but everything else is very like, I would say planning maybe a couple of months. Like there's an event coming up in Colorado that I'm like, Ooh, I'd really love to go out there. And it's just kind of like in my mind, but it's like, I've got to get closer to the date to actually see if That's unrealistic.

51:08Natalie Palmer:Yep. Yep. Yep. Such is life right now. Yep. Oh, my gosh. Okay. You know, that's what I've reminded myself because we thought we were done and then we had our fourth baby. And so we were kind of we had trips planned and all that. And then it's like, oh, okay. Like, we're going to restart everything. Yeah. But it's been such a blessing. And, you know, it goes by so fast. And so I'm like, you know, in a few years, we're going to be right back at kind of more ready to travel and do more things. Yeah. It's all like so temporary. Yeah. Even just what both our babies are seven months old. And I'm like, I can't believe like two, what, five months ago, I was like not sleeping through the night, you know, and now it's like, okay, like everyone's sleeping.

51:53Natalie Palmer:Like we never routine. Yeah. It changes so fast. Like when you're in the thick of it, it's very hard to see through the, through the haze, but yeah, you're giving me an idea, Emily. I, if anybody would possibly want like a motherhood workshop or panel at Level Up, send me an email because I feel like, you know, do you know Rose Tipka? I think, yeah, like she homeschooled like six kids. One of my friends, Lisa, homeschooled like nine kids. Like it doesn't have to be a homeschooling panel, but just how the heck are these women like building these businesses with so many kids running around? So I know not everyone attending is a mom.

52:31Natalie Palmer:So maybe we'll make it like a breakout workshop. But if something like that would be interesting, send an email or like DM me and maybe we can put something like that together. Yeah, I would love that. That would be amazing. Okay, Emily, how can people get in touch with you if they if they want to work with you or just learn more tips and stuff from your socials? Yeah, you can follow me anywhere at Emily Lethko. And then visit matchpointsocials.com. Everything is there for you to find more information. wonderful we will link all of that below and thanks so much emily thank you and with that it is now checkout time thanks for listening and i'll see you back here next week lastly as airbnb hosts we all can appreciate a good five-star review so you already know a great review on this podcast would mean so much to me please subscribe review share and connect with me in the show notes below bye

53:30Thank you.