A Medievalist of the Seven Kingdoms (with Dr. Hugh Doherty)

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2:03Hi, this is Dana Schwartz, and I am so thrilled to be here today with a very special interview. I'm talking to Dr. Hugh Doherty, who's a professor at the University of East Asia. in the UK. He focuses, I think, primarily on medieval topics, your lecture in medieval subjects. But very exciting to my personal interest is he served as the historical consultant on the truly excellent television series, A Night of the Seven Kingdoms. And I just want to be very clear, this is not a sponsored episode. No one is paying me to do this. I just genuinely, personally love the television show so much. And so I'm personally so delighted to be speaking with you.

2:46Dr. Doherty, thank you for joining. It's a pleasure to be here. Just to dive right in, can you talk a little bit about your field and your subjects that you primarily focus on when you're not consulting for historical fantasies? I have an expertise in 10th and 11th and 12th century Europe. and as a result of my own choice, I wanted to teach, I'm fascinated with ancient history. So I teach a module on the Roman Empire and I also teach a module on the Hundred Years' War. So I know a little about a lot. Well, that's sort of the motto for this podcast where I've covered several thousands of years of history.

3:30What I love about A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and Game of Thrones in general is it very clearly takes place in a fantasy, but there are analogs to real British history. I think it's pretty clear that the original Game of Thrones series is a take on the Wars of the Roses in the 15th century and the House of the Dragon, sort of the prequel series, seems inspired by the anarchy, the period with Empress Metis. When does The Night of the Seven Kingdoms, I'm going to say take place again, even though it is very much a fantasy scene? I agree with everything you've said about, by the way, about The Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

4:15I've only seen the first two episodes at the moment. Oh, you got to get on it. The ending, really, they really stick the ending. I know. I just thought they were marvelous. And in fact, they were so good, they made me go back and watch the House of Dragon, which I had not seen. And I'm only sort of halfway through season one, but absolutely spellbound. And in answer to your really interesting observation and question, by noting that I think George R.R. Martin is a superb historian. He knows his stuff. It's not just he knows chronology and reigns and personalities, but he understands the operation of power in these societies like few other people do.

5:03And I think he did a fantastic job. And often, as I've said, that Game of Thrones, House of Dragon, and now Knight of the Seven Kingdoms are often more accurate in how they represent the texture of society than series and films that are allegedly about the Middle Ages. So I think that's an important point to note. And I think Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, when I talked to Ira Parker, the writer and showrunner, about the period, he'd asked George R. R. Martin what was the sort of, you know, that if he had to spin it to a particular century, which century would it be? and George R. R. Martin came back with the 14th.

5:48And that is, as you know, it is the age of the tournament and of the first two thirds of the Hundred Years' War. So how did you, obviously you know a lot about the Hundred Years' War and this period, how did you connect with Ira Parker who created the show alongside George R. R. Martin and the team at A. It's just luck. I've done this before. It all started by somebody. When I was at Oxford, I was a research fellow, and someone at the history faculty received a phone call from a film company who needed somebody to advise on something else. This is many years ago. And the person who answered the phone said, oh, I know someone.

6:33So I said yes to that, and I've been sort of picking up the phone or answering emails ever since. So it was word of mouth, essentially. So it was a great joy to be asked as a fan of Game of Thrones long before all of this. It was a great, it was an honor to be asked. And essentially it came down to Ira and myself having these interviews with Ira, I think in LA and myself here in Norwich in Norfolk in England. Just discussing tournament culture, knightly politics, warfare, Hundred Years' War. It was just fantastic because Ira wanted detail. You know, the more detail the better. And he had lots of fascinating questions.

7:23It was a real joy to sort of be engaged in the creative process at an early stage. You know, I've been on productions where I've been invited in at the very last minute. And then to some extent, everything is fixed. while with this, I could suggest things that could be then fed into the script and the writing. It's very exciting to me what this show did. And like you said, it captures the texture of the medieval world, obviously, even though it takes place in a fantasy world. But what A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms does that other Game of Thrones series don't do is it's very focused on a brief period of time rather than spanning years.

8:07We are focused on one tournament. Can you tell us a little bit about what tournament culture was like in the 1300s? I would start by saying that there was a knightly culture that united all of Europe. So the same men who on battlefields are trying to kill each other, are on the tournament field, interacting with each other as competitors and sportsmen and as colleagues and as fellow diners and feasters. It's an aspect of elite culture that draws men and women from across Europe. So it's something that they share. So while at the same time, they're often killing each other in the great battlefields and sieges of the Hundred Years' War.

8:56At the same time, in moments of truces or peace, or sometimes interacting with these campaigns, they are also participating in these tournaments. They were splendid opportunities for the elite of Europe to gather, to show off their wealth, their accoutrements, their gear, their households. And the comparison I've always made is that tournaments were much like film festivals in that it was as much about what was happening after the film showings the soirees the dinners as as what's happening in the in the film showings and so it was as much about what's happening off the tournament field as on it there's there's no doubt that there is the principal action is the um the demonstration of skill at arms on the tournament field for all to see and then this will occupy each day and then in the evenings there'll be feasting and dancing and poetry and interaction between competitors and between women and families and households and i think that this the knight of the seven kingdoms did a brilliant job in bringing that out that that interaction that happens are off the tournament field so So there is great drama on the field.

10:16And that drama could be, you know, it could be just knights taunting against each other, but they might also reenact episodes from antiquity, from the classical world, or from the legendary world. So it develops in Spain, actually, this notion that knights would hold a bridge and would defy any other knight to cross the bridge or that they would reenact a battle of King Arthur. It's like children playing Red Rover, King of the... Absolutely. It's as much about reenactment and display. It's a celebration of the aristocratic imagination. What I always found, you brought up King Arthur, I've always found it personally fascinating that But to a modern layperson, their conception of King Arthur, if they're imagined, is in the 14th century as a knight of chivalry.

11:14When, of course, King Arthur, who didn't exist, if he did exist at all, would have been, you know, 9th century. But I find it very interesting that our popular image of this character is in the era where he was popular. Absolutely. I know of medievalists who sort of, who don't like the kind of thing I do. who, you know, laugh at or comment on sort of making a fantasy world accurate and to give it texture and so on. But I think it's what's really interesting is that the kind of world that George R. R. Martin has created is one that any 14th, 15th century audience would have loved. I mean, the tales of nightly drama, of heroes rising through the ranks.

11:59This is that world of Arthur that they love reading about, hearing about, and reenacting. So there is actually a nice continuation between, as you say, the legendary world of Arthur that they believe in and they love, and that has shaped Western culture, you know, the pre-Raphaelites, Wagner, Excalibur, up to Game of Thrones. It's part of, in a way, a shared tradition that we are still buying into. They were celebrating King Arthur as a fictional knight, the same way we're talking about Sir Duncan. Absolutely, absolutely. And in the same way that people who watch the Night of Seven Kingdoms on a Sunday evening in the States or Monday evening here would go to work the following day.

12:47Exactly. With their imaginations captured as they're on the underground or the bus or driving to work and they're thinking about tournament culture and daring do and honor and all this sort of thing. I think the 14th century audience thought exactly the same when they were on their way to church or, you know, going to see family or going to the law courts or inspecting their stables. They were also thinking about Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. So it populated their imaginative landscapes. And to be frank, and I don't want to generalize, but it does seem like for most people, being alive in the 14th century would have been quite boring and bleak and challenging and physically arduous.

13:36I imagine these tournaments were an opportunity for a chance for levity and fun and community that might not, you know, it might just be church and working in a field the rest of the year. They were immensely popular. They were great fun. I would say no age likes to think of themselves as an age of boredom. And when we have evidence, there is a lot of drinking, merrymaking, dancing in the lives of peasant farmers. I mean, that's not, there's also starvation and there is harsh justice and there is... A famine around this era. Exactly. And plague, but plague is no respecter of rank, was no respecter of rank as COVID was no respecter of rank.

14:21And it's also been pointed out the number of saints days. Saints days are holidays and there are so many saints days, it's sometimes difficult to say how many days these farmers are actually working. They got more time off than most Americans. Absolutely. But having said all that, there is no doubt that tournaments were an immense draw for all different sections of society. I think what we also have to remember is that it was talked about. So even if people weren't there, it was talked about and listened to in the weeks and months afterwards. And that was, I remember being in a restaurant and listening to an account of a football match at another table.

15:08And more or less, all of the restaurant was gripped by the discussion of this match that only that table had seen. So the same, I think, was true in the Middle Ages, even more true in the Middle Ages, that it was topic of discussion. And you can imagine how the stories got better in the telling. So in a real tournament in the 14th century, if I were a knight or a nobleman competing, what would be at stake? Not your life. Not your life. So it's very rare for knights to be killed. Now they sometimes were, sometimes as a result because it's a danger sport, and sometimes because there is suspicion of murder.

15:49They use a lance they shouldn't have done. The lances were meant to have this sort of non-lethal end, but that could sometimes be altered, so it was lethal. There are deaths, but they would, above what was at stake, honour, glory, above all. It's slightly different from the tournament of the 12th and 13th century where you could make your fortune by capturing other knights and then selling off their horses, their armor, and even ransoming them. When you say capturing other knights, do you mean just beating them in a jacket? Yeah, unhorsing them. And then as it were, so the 12th century and 13th century tournaments weren't as we imagine them as they became in the 14th century.

16:39They were sort of pitched battles where killing wasn't the objective, capture was. And they were fought over large sort of football fields. so these huge battles taking place where they're not killing each other just trying to capture each other and then you could sell off your captives to make a nice fortune it alters so in the 13th and then the 14th century it becomes much more a display of arms and a quest for honor and glory and and it's about it's just about as you know make an impression on all of the glamorous people, the men and the women as much as the men who are present, and for showing off, you know, your horsemanship, your skill at arms, that's what's at stake.

17:26And we can't underestimate the importance of honor for these men and women.

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20:21Episodes of our new series run from January 20th through February 17th, with new episodes every Tuesday on the Exactly Right Network. Listen to This Podcast Will Kill You as part of the Exactly Right Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something I sort of have imagined from popular culture is a knight extending his lance and getting the favor of a woman, her maybe tying a ribbon to the end of the lance. Was that something that actually? Yes, absolutely. In fact, it's even more, our evidence is even richer and more complex. We have high status women decided who was the champion after so many days of fighting.

21:00And it wasn't just simply about calculating points and scoring victories, but a noblewoman might often be entrusted with deciding who was the bravest, the most skillful knight or dispensing with a range of prizes or giving the prize. It might even be a wild animal. We know of one tournament where the prize being competed for was a bear. What would you do with a bear if you won? Is it bear baiting? Is that the answer? I don't know. I mean, Henry II has a bear in the 12th century. I think bears would do tricks. And I think it was just such a large and hungry beast to feed that it was kind of a demonstration of wealth and power.

21:48So you come home from the tournament and you bring back a bear. I can't imagine anyone's wife being too pleased about that. No, though it's a noblewoman, according to this evidence, who gave the bear away, who was in charge of the bear and gave it as the gift to the victor. Though when Henry, Earl of Derby in the 1390s, he went to join the Teutonic Knights in one of their campaigns and he goes twice. And on the second time, he misses them. They've already campaigned in the summer against the Lithuanians. So he goes on it because he's got money. This is the future Henry IV. He goes on a kind of great pilgrimage to Jerusalem and around Europe and he picks up all these gifts and he comes back with a leopard.

22:38And so you could, you know, the menageries of these aristocrats at these tournaments could be quite spectacular. I mean, that sounds spectacular. Who in general is funding these tournaments? Is it always the king, local nobles? Is there a system? It's largely paid for out of the noblemen. The noblemen, if they want a tournament, they pay for it. there are some tournaments where because there it's quite a high profile tournament kings get involved and they'll they'll fund it they'll pay for the whole thing because it it you know there's a very famous tournament in france in 1390 in which three great french knights challenge all of europe to battle them and it takes place over a really significant minute something like 30 days of fighting as a demonstration of endurance.

23:35It's very impressive. It's paid for by the French king because it's bringing great honor and glory to the French kingdom. It didn't start with him, but once he hears about it, he wants to sort of support it. So he funds it. I mean, that makes sense. 30 days also seems like such a long time where that's like, don't Don't you have jobs to do? Aren't there any wars to fight? Absolutely. The fascinating thing is a recent study of this particular tournament demonstrates that it's happening up the road from where the negotiations were being conducted between the French and English delegations, trying to thrash out a peace.

24:15So it looks like there's actually overlap. People are moving from powerful negotiating to the tournament field so that at the tournament itself, you know, over the drinks and the feasting at night, they're also talking about how they can work out a lasting peace, which is very interesting. I mean, that is, that's such an interesting contrast that there's this lasting peace and then this faux battle juxtaposed literally right next door. Absolutely. And these are men, the three knights are all involved in the Hundred Years' War. One of them, in fact, would be captured, what, 25 years later at Agincourt.

24:58So it's really fascinating how these individuals turn up in all of these different campaigns and tournaments. You mentioned earlier that their lives wouldn't necessarily be at risk in these tournaments, which are not intended to be deadly. But of course, accidents do happen. I mean, a few centuries after the period that we're talking about, the King of France, who was Henry II, will die in a jousting accident. That's right. Were there any notable tragedies that come to mind for you? In particular, in the 13th century, there are a number of high-ranking casualties who are killed in tournaments.

25:37And in both cases, murder is suspected. Interesting. As in people wanted to sort of use the cover of the tournament to kill people that they actually wanted to kill. Absolutely. So there is aristocratic feuding and they want to settle scores. There are, of course, jewels to the death, a bit like your cat in that microphone. You know, one of the most famous jewels is fought at the French court and was the subject of that very good film, The Last Jewel, about a charge of rape. And that is to the death. So there are these incidents. I mean, Henry Earl of Derby, who I've just mentioned, was compelled to fight a duel with Thomas Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk, over charges of treason in 1399 before he was exiled by Richard II.

26:36The duel was never fought at Coventry, but it came very close to being waged and then was stopped by the king. The Last Duel, which Ridley Scott made a film of, a phenomenal film, I thought. I thought it was excellent. That also captured what a duel to the death was like. So they do occur, but the duels are separate from the tournaments. One other thing that occurs in the television show Night of the Seven Kingdoms is a trial by combat. They end up doing a trial where it's seven against seven. I hope I'm not spoiling anything. I won't reveal any outcomes. But is a trial by combat something that actually occurred during this period?

27:19Ed? Absolutely. And it had been a part of elite culture and justice from a very early date. I mean, from a sort of post-Roman date, late antiquity, the evidence from among those who settled in the Roman Empire from the 5th and 6th century of this kind of means of resolving feud of fighting jewels so it goes from being part it seems of a of pagan germanic elite culture to being something within the christian fold that jewels are fought often as a result of charges of treason um in the 11th and 12th century so when men are charged with treason they deny it and then they have to fight to defend their position.

28:11And there we have an account from a duel that is fought in Flanders in the summer of 1127. And it's horrific. It's just like the duel in Game of Thrones where the chap's eyes are pulled out or squashed out. And there's something not quite the same, but something similar. We have an account of it. It takes place after the assassination of the Count of Flanders in 1127 that sets off a chain of events that leads to civil war in Flanders. And there is this duel about charges of complicity in the assassination. And we have an eyewitness account of the duel in which one sort of one of the knights against another more or less disembowels the opponent.