In short
Dan Jones discusses Paul Greengrass’s film The Uprising (fictionalized Peasant Revolt of 1381) and explains the revolt’s causes and events: post-Black Death labor changes, reimposed hereditary serfdom, regressive poll taxes, and the rebels’ march to London, breach of the Tower, and later crackdown.
Guest backgrounds
Dan Jones is a historian, TV presenter, and bestselling author. He wrote Summer of Blood and is a medieval consultant on Greengrass’s The Uprising. His book Castles: A Fortified History of the World is due in the U.S. Nov 2, 2026.
Key claims
Poll taxes were levied per adult and involved abusive age checks (including physical manhandling of girls). Serfdom functioned like slavery—bound to land and denied legal freedoms. The revolt’s “genie” (ordinary people’s political stake) outlasted the uprising, influencing later political thinking and outlaw-ballad culture.
Notable examples
poll tax age-check scene; rebels led by John Ball and Watt Tyler; march to Blackheath; Mile End meeting with Richard II; rebels hunting “traitors” leading to Tower access; Archbishop Simon Sudbury’s beheading (head preserved in Sudbury).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOHistorical Context of the Peasants' Revolt
1:35 to 3:03
An overview of the Peasants' Revolt of 1381 and its significance.
“I am thrilled to be joined today by one of my all-time favorite historians, Dan Jones, acclaimed historian, TV presenter, bestselling author.”
The Impact of the Black Death
3:03 to 6:37
Discusses how the Black Death affected social structures in England.
“But forgive me if I'm wrong, I don't recall the Peasant Revolt of 1381 ever being put to film, despite it being a massive historical event in the history of England.”
The Build-Up to Rebellion
6:37 to 12:07
Details the events leading to the Peasants' Rebellion in 1381.
“So in the summer of 1381, there are rising movements, particularly in Southeast England, Essex, Kent, the counties around London, where the ordinary people have had enough.”
The Peasants' Revolt Unfolds
12:07 to 14:00
A detailed narrative of the Peasants' Revolt and its leaders.
“What actually happens when these groups of people begin fighting back?”
The Rebels' Communication with the King
14:00 to 15:29
The rebels communicate with London sympathizers to reach King Richard II.
“And by this stage, they're in communication with sympathetic Londoners who control access to the city via the bridge and its gates, and also with the royal court of the boy king, Richard II.”
The Rebels' Communication with the King
15:32 to 17:31
The rebels communicate with London sympathizers to reach King Richard II.
“Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch.”
Introduction to Decoding Women's Health
17:46 to 18:52
Introduction to a new podcast focusing on women's health topics.
“Elizabeth Pointer, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City.”
The Breach of the Tower of London
18:53 to 23:15
Discussion about the Peasants' Revolt and the breach of the Tower of London.
“understood about it, was that they breached the Tower of London, which to my mind was unbreachable.”
Consequences of the Peasants' Revolt
23:15 to 27:09
Exploration of the aftermath and significance of the Peasants' Revolt.
“So there's a whole sort of orgy of violence that spirals out after Richard's allowed the rebels to hunt traitors.”
Legacy of Richard II
27:09 to 28:00
Analysis of Richard II's legacy and his ranking among medieval monarchs.
“it has something to say to us in the world today as well.”
Show all 15 chapters
Reflecting on Medieval Storytelling
28:00 to 28:34
Listeners learn about the importance of reflective storytelling in historical films.
“I hope that people who go and watch this movie will not only convert to being fans of medieval history, will also just have that opportunity to reflect on our own times, wherever they sit on the political spectrum.”
The Complex Legacy of Richard II
28:34 to 29:44
The discussion dives into the controversial character of Richard II and his reign.
“At the end of his life, he's going to be framed as a tyrant when he's, spoiler alert, later in his life overthrown by the future Henry IV.”
Childhood and Tyranny: Lessons from History
29:44 to 31:01
Explores how childhood influences leadership and the implications for future rulers.
“some poisoned by their wives, some sleeping, killed or murdered.”
The Historical Significance of Castles
31:01 to 31:38
Discusses the evolution and significance of castles throughout history.
“Now, before I let you go, I want to talk very briefly about castles.”
Disneyland and Historical Narratives
31:38 to 33:19
A light-hearted conversation about the connections between castles and modern culture.
“So looking at castles gives me the opportunity to do something I love, which is to tell big stories on a grand scale, huge narratives, sweeping kind of world history.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Dana Schwartz:This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Hi, I'm Sean Evans from Hot Ones, and I want to tell you about YouTube Premium. It has offline downloads, so you can watch without Wi-Fi. Background play, so you can lock your phone, and it still plays, baby. Oh, and it is completely ad-free. Yes, I said it, ad-free. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel any time. From Geico Subconscious News, I'm Tammy Racing Thoughts broadcasting from your brain. Tonight's top worry. If something happens to your apartment and you need to, like, stay in a hotel and pay for it, that would be crazy, right?
0:47Dana Schwartz:Art Palpitations has more. That would be crazy, Tammy, but you got surprisingly affordable renter's insurance through Geico, so it could be covered, giving you peace of mind. Aw, I love a story that ends well. Next up, love stories. Are they all they're cracked up to be? It feels good to worry less. It feels good to GEICO. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City. I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you.
1:20100 % of women go through menopause.
1:23Dana Schwartz:Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Pointer on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Erin Menke. Listener discretion advised.
1:47Dana Schwartz:I am thrilled to be joined today by one of my all-time favorite historians, Dan Jones, acclaimed historian, TV presenter, bestselling author. His newest book, Castles, A Fortified History of the World, is coming out, I believe, in the U.S. November 2nd, 2026. And he's also found time to serve as the medieval consultant on the newest Paul Greengrass film, The Uprising, which will be out September 10th. Dan, thank you so much for joining me. Well, thank you for all those accolades. To be one of your favorites is truly a life goal. So thank you, Dana. It's nice to talk to you again. Am I missing any massive accomplishments?
2:28God, there are just so many, aren't there? No, I think that'll do for now.
2:31Dana Schwartz:Have you been knighted yet? Do you know what? I haven't been knighted, but my wife has been inducted into the Order of Merit. She's just been awarded by the King of England the MBE. So she's a member of the Order of the British Empire, but she's a do-gooder. She started a charity 10 years ago, and they recognize that sort of thing in the UK with far more readiness than they do enormous sales of historical books and accomplishments in films. So good for her. She's carrying that load for us. Yeah. So I want to talk especially about the movie Uprising, which tells a fictionalized version of the Peasant Revolt of 1381.
3:10Dana Schwartz:But forgive me if I'm wrong, I don't recall the Peasant Revolt of 1381 ever being put to film, despite it being a massive historical event in the history of England. I have not seen another film about the Peasant's Revolt of 1381, and that's not for want of desire. You know, 20 years ago, I wrote a book called Summer of Blood. It was the first historical book that I wrote about this incredibly dramatic event with these extraordinary cinematic set pieces that really happened, you know, from the end of the 14th century in the aftermath of the Black Death. Yeah. And thought, as I was writing, I mean, it's a wild and sprawling story in the historical sources, but it has these extraordinary moments of drama.
3:55And the great Paul Greengrass, you know, director of Bourne Films and, you know, most recently The Lost Bus and so many other amazing movies, Captain Phillips has now turned his hands to dramatizing it. I mean, you've seen the movie. You know what it's like.
4:09Dana Schwartz:We did see it together. I didn't want to get the listeners jealous. They're already jealous enough that I get to talk to you. Okay, listeners, don't be envious, but Dana came to watch the screening of the film. You know what it's like. It's an epic. It's extraordinary. It's an epic and a shockingly relevant, the themes of peasants, the common people understanding that they've been abused by the wealthy who don't actually acknowledge them as people and rising up together. I think they're very universal themes and moments. But I want to start at the beginning for listeners who maybe aren't familiar with the Peasants' Revolt specifically.
4:46Dana Schwartz:It takes place under Richard II. For audiences who maybe know Richard I, the Lionheart, you know, we know Richard III, Shakespeare's Hunchback, but who is Richard II in the middle? Well, like many trilogies, the best one is the second. I mean, you know, Empire Strikes Back, Godfather Part II. So we're in the end of the 14th century. The Black Death has happened 1347, 8, 9. Not a happy time to be an Englishman. Well, no, no, you're either alive or dead and neither was perfect. So the calamitous 14th century, as Barbara Turchman called it, is drawing towards its end. The country's been hammered by the Black Death.
5:24There's an ongoing conflict, the Hundred Years' War, which has been draining public finances. The golden age of chivalry under, you know, the rebirth of chivalry under Edward III, the Black Prince, is now receding into the realm of memory because Edward III is dead, having died kind of decrepit, senile, long past his sell-by dates. The Black Prince, supposedly a successor, has now died also. And they've left as king a boy, Richard II, who's 10 years old when he becomes king in 1377. And four years later, policies enacted in his name by his sort of cohort of nobles, bishops, and officials, merchants, have pushed the burden of economic distress caused by the war further and further down the social scale until it's resting heavily on ordinary people, peasants, which is a large class, but ordinary villagers.
6:18At the same time, they've also passed a raft of laws which have prevented those ordinary people from reaping the benefits of living past the Black Death, which should have been higher wages, better conditions, freedom from serfdom. These have all been legally restricted. And what you end up with is a tinderbox. So in the summer of 1381, there are rising movements, particularly in Southeast England, Essex, Kent, the counties around London, where the ordinary people have had enough. And as we see brilliantly in Paul's movie, Andrew Garfield playing a fictionalized character called the Plowman. He snaps and he says, enough, you've taken enough from us.
7:01And that really captures, I think, the spirit of disquiet and rage that was rising amongst ordinary people in England at this time.
7:09Dana Schwartz:There's a moment early on in the film that I found very striking. At this period, as you said, restricting what should have been the advances after the Black Death with fewer workers. You know, the workers should have more bargaining power, but instead they enact higher taxes. And there's a scene early in the film where there's a poll tax for every adult, and they are physically checking women to see if they are of age. Is that something that actually occurred? Yes. As accounts of the beginning of the rebellion had it, that was one of the deplorable techniques, moves, abuses that were pulled by tax collectors going out to assess a poll tax.
7:52So the taxation that was leveled on ordinary people was known as a poll tax. There were three different versions of it. But essentially, rather than landholders being taxed for a percentage of the value of their lands, ordinary people were taxed at a fixed rate per head. So it's a regressive tax. And the tax was levied on adults. So tax collectors had a duty, but also an interest in proving that people were adult, were of age, and in the case of young girls, were past the age of puberty. And so we have these stories from the chronicles leading up to the rebellion of tax collectors going in and physically manhandling girls to check that.
8:35And that sort of event in the sources is something I think that, as you saw in the movie, it speaks volumes on screen. It's very hard in a movie to explain the intricacies of medieval tax policy. And Paul is a great filmmaker and has more sense than to try and do that, you know, through exposition. But, you know, you see tax collectors going into a village and sticking their hands up girls skirts, you know, immediately this is a system in which everything is going very badly wrong.
9:04Dana Schwartz:It's gone too far. The thing about a system of serfdom is I think people sometimes hear that, and it doesn't really sound quite as bad as it is. But what did it actually entail to sort of be fixed to land as a worker? From the time of the Norman conquest and earlier, this institution of serfdom had existed. It's not very far from slavery. So if you're a serf, if you're an unfree peasant, you are more or less bound to the land. There will be a lord who owns the land and you, the worker, will be allowed to live on that land in exchange for doing a certain amount of days labor service every year to your Lord, to paying certain taxes, usually in kind of animals or crops.
9:52There's a whole bunch of occasions and reasons why you would be asked to do that. You would give the bulk of your labor to enriching the person and the social system above you. And critically, you're not free to leave their land. You are bound to the land and so are your children. It's in perpetuity through the family. It's possible to obtain freedom, but it's very difficult. One of the other conditions of serfdom would be that you were denied access to the royal courts, to systems of lawmaking, to legal freedoms that would be available to free people. These were denied to serfs. Now, what happens after the Black Death is that serfdom, which had been gradually withering before the Black Death, and as the economy of England had become more sophisticated, peasants were being released from the conditions of serfdom and allowed to pay rents.
10:43and there was more of a cash economy. In the aftermath of the Black Death, in order that landlords should free themselves from the rising costs in a cash economy of a halving of the workforce, i.e. much higher rates for labor and collapsing rent, disaster for a landlord, they were trying to reimpose serfdom. And they were doing that by pulling out bits of paper, let's call it paper, parchment, old documents going back to the Doomsday Book that said, hang on, your great-great-great-great-grandfather was a serf at the time of William the Conqueror, that's hereditary. Get back on the land and work my land for free.
11:19Now, the re-imposition of serfdom, understandably, irked a lot of people and went alongside things like regressive poll taxes. You end up with a situation, and this is probably somewhat analogous or feel somewhat analogous to the world today, you end up with a situation where the mass of ordinary people feel like the whole system is rigged against them. And there's a wealthy elite at the top who control everything, who control the tax system, who control politics, who control the law, who control the direction of travel, who control the conversation of the country. The whole thing is loaded to an elite who are actively out to do down and oppress the ordinary people.
12:01That's the feeling that's building in the 1370s and in the years that lead up to the Peasants' Revolt.
12:06Dana Schwartz:So we understand sort of the tinder. What actually happens when these groups of people begin fighting back? What actually happens in the 1381 Peasants' Rebellion? Well, it begins in the late spring to early summer of 1381. And tax collectors go out into the shires of England to investigate tax evasion of the most recent coal tax. And they try, as we've discussed, and as Paul brilliantly shows in the movie, they use pretty heavy-handed tactics. And finally, they push the ordinary people too far. And there are, in a number of villages across Essex and Kent in particular, there is spontaneous but somewhat organized resistance.
12:56So villagers snap, they refuse to pay the tax. And then there's an organization, there's a coordination of villages around that area where this village says we're not paying, the next village says we're not paying. And suddenly there's this groundswell of anti-government, anti-tax, anti-oligarch feeling. and the movement starts to build. And through networks of, particularly of traveling priests in the mold of, and most famously led by John Ball, who's brilliantly played by Jamie Bell in the movie, there's coordination. There are a lot of military veterans, such as Watt Tyler, maybe the most famous name from the Peasants' Revolt, who've had lots of military experience fighting in the King's Wars in France and Scotland, who take up military leadership.
13:41And by the time you get to late May into early June of 1381, There are, if we believe the chroniclers, tens of thousands, maybe as many as 100 ,000, that's probably a high estimate, but there are tens of thousands of people marching towards England's capital, London. They basically follow the River Thames upriver, which takes you on the south side of it to a place called Blackheath, a large open space where the rebels camp. And by this stage, they're in communication with sympathetic Londoners who control access to the city via the bridge and its gates, and also with the royal court of the boy king, Richard II.
14:20And what the rebels want, and Paul shows us in the film more than anything else, is to talk to the king. Because this is a boy king, a teenager, he's 14 years old. And the whole country has been encouraged since the start of his reign to invest their hopes in this sort of...
14:34Dana Schwartz:Messianic figure. Messianic figure, that's exactly right, Dana. And they want to meet with the king and they believe with a touching, but in some senses harrowing, it's not a peasant pun, harrowing naivety that if they can just talk to the king, he will understand that he's been led astray by corrupt officials and he will restore justice where the law has failed. And so that's the setup we have by the time we get to Corpus Christi weekend, a sort of a big festival weekend in London in the second week of June, 1981.
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17:31Dana Schwartz:Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash noble. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash noble. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you. 100 % of women go through menopause. it can be such a struggle for our quality of life but even if it's natural why should we suffer through it?
18:21The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything I never used to forget things they're concerned that one they have dementia and the other one is do I have ADHD?
18:31Dana Schwartz:There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood and also to have better day-to-day life. Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Poyner on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now.
18:52Dana Schwartz:What I always found fascinating about the Peasants' Revolt, and I think kind of the main thing I understood about it, was that they breached the Tower of London, which to my mind was unbreachable. How does that happen? That's a great historical question, which again, I think Paul answers definitively and convincingly, and in accordance with the historical sources in the movie. So the rebels gain access to London because there are sympathetic Londoners who allow them across London Bridge, which was controlled by gates and a drawbridge. That's opened, the rebels get into London. When that happens, Richard II, the Boy Kings, advisors, suggest that he does meet the rebels, which he does just outside the city walls to the east in a place called Mile End.
19:35Dana Schwartz:Seems like the least he could do. You've got to do something, right? You've got to do something. And they have this moment, again, depicted brilliantly in the film, where there's a question asked, do we use the king as bait? To what extent is the king actually interested in meeting these people? He's a boy. He can hear them chanting his name, as it were, from within the Tower of London, the most secure fortress in London, but in the southeast corner of the city. So they send the king out to meet rebels at Mile End. and the rebels present him with a petition that says we'd like, you know, there's a whole range of demands, but they want charters of freedom, charters of manumission, charters that guarantee that they're not going to be, you know, reduced to the condition of serfs anymore, what rents are going to be on their land.
20:20And there's a moment at Mile End where the rebels, and led by in the movie by John Ball, say, we want permission to go hunt the traitors, the people around the king who have been responsible for all of these terribly damaging policies. And Richard critically says, okay, you can. Now, at that point, the rebels return to London with this message. The king has said we can hunt traitors and somehow gain access to the Tower of London. Now, the Tower of London, then as now, is not easy to storm. So I think it's almost certain that sympathizers within the Tower let the rebels in. and it feels like, you know, this is a revolution.
21:07The spirit of revolution is absolutely upon the country and it feels in that moment, this is it. The thing is actually happening. So with someone within the Tower of London, we don't know who, opens the gates, I think, and I know this is the way that's depicted in the movie. And once the rebels get into the Tower, all hell breaks loose and they lay hands on the Archbishop of Canterbury, who's also the Lord Chancellor, effectively the Prime Minister of the day, Simon Sudbury. Sidebar, within the movie, there are some heads locked off. And I think Paul really captures the spiraling bloody violence of the time.
21:41Sidebar, anyone who goes to see the movie and wonders what happens to the Archbishop of Canterbury's head, well, in Sudbury, which is a village in North Essex, it's in the church. And if you ring up the verger of the church in Sudbury and say, hey, can I come see Simon Sudbury's head? You can see the head that was chopped off in June 1381. They keep it in the little box. I've seen it.
22:02Dana Schwartz:They keep the head in the box? What has kept it? How is it preserved? What is happening with this head? It's without question a head. As I recall, it's, I mean, God, it was when I was writing the books, it's nearly 20 years ago since I last went to see the head and I haven't revisited. I'm overdue a visit back. You have to pay your respects. It's a medieval skull. I think it's got scraps of skin left on it, but don't take my word for it. If you Google this, you can see it. And there was some work done in the last decade or so on the skull. I think you knew that when I was gripping your shoulder during the bloody bits, I'm not going to Google this skull.
Read the full transcript
22:39Let me just very briefly tell you, there was some work done 10 or so years ago, you know, when they scanned the skull, they did it with Richard III, and then rebuild what Simon Sudbury would have looked like. There's a non-severed version of Sudbury's head, which was reconstructed by academics working on from the skull.
22:55Dana Schwartz:Fascinating. So the king possibly gives the rebels permission to breach the tower, to take revenge on the traitors. But ultimately, and not to spoil history, these peasants don't get everything they want. This rebellion, like so many medieval peasant rebellions, is ultimately put down. And how does that go? Yes. So there's a whole sort of orgy of violence that spirals out after Richard's allowed the rebels to hunt traitors. Subsequent to that, there's another meeting set up at Smithfield, in which Richard will once again go and meet the rebels, and they're going to present him with even more demands.
23:33This time, an extremely radical set that says, we're going to do away with all lords, all bishops. There's just going to be the commons, the true commons, and the king, and that's going to be it. But this time, the grown-ups around the king, led by the mayor of London, an extremely wealthy oligarch called William Walworth, dastardly character, as portrayed in the uprising in the movie, they've got a plan and it's an ambush. And the rebels are led out to see their king. They sort of fall to the knees in wonder. And I suspect they're also extremely hungover and exhausted when they see him. But then they're ambushed by troops and they're led away from London.
24:08In the weeks and months that follow, there's a violent and bloody crackdown on the rebellion. Now, in Paul's movie, this is compressed into the actions that follow from Smithfield onwards. I mean, and it's very well done. He gets the spirit of the ambush, the betrayal of the rebellion by the king, who has flipped from saying, yes, you can hunt traitors to, yes, we're going to string you all up. I hesitate to say the death of the dream, but the rebellion is squashed. But what's interesting about the Peasants' Revolt is that the genie is out of the box, as it were, the bottle. Genies don't live in boxes, do they?
24:44They live in bottles.
24:45Dana Schwartz:Heads live in boxes, Dan. Heads live in boxes, genies live in bottles. They've both come out. The spirit of the ordinary people having a stake and a say in politics, or at least being a consideration in politics, has entered discourse now. The poet John Gower says, writing around this time, there are three things that you have to beware of, because when they get out of control, you're in big trouble. The first is a raging fire. The second is a flood of water. And the third is the common people, because once provoked, they can't be stopped by reason or discipline. So it now becomes a sort of heuristic of medieval politics that if you push the ordinary people too far, you are in big trouble.
25:30And we see it.
25:31Dana Schwartz:I mean, throughout the Hundred Years' War, there's going to be opportunities, I'm sure, that kings would want to raise taxes. Right. But it has now been definitively proven that if you've got to beware levying a poll tax. I mean, I remember growing up in the UK, certainly in the 80s and early 90s, Margaret Thatcher levied a poll tax and the same thing happened. There were riots in London. She had to roll back the policy. So it's become axiomatic in British politics since 1381. Do not levy poll taxes on the ordinary people. But I think beyond that, and this is another thing that The Uprising shows, you know, without, I think, too much of a spoiler, as well as politically, there's a cultural survival of this idea that exists through the genre of outlaw ballads, outlaw literature, that rises at exactly the same time as The Peasants' Revolt.
26:18And that's stories, there's one called Gamelin, one called Adam Bell, one called Clim of the Clough, but the most famous is Robin Hood. and the medieval Robin Hood who emerges in the late 14th century just as the Peasants' Revolt is happening is a character who could have stepped from Tyler's army, who could easily have walked shoulder to shoulder with Andrew Garfield as ploughman. He's a violent yeoman who has been pushed to the edge of society and the end of his tether by the unjust royal officials. And so it's no coincidence these two things rise out of the post-Black Death world, I think.
26:57Dana Schwartz:It's very well said. So even though the uprising itself might not have had a happy ending, its impact could be felt literally for centuries throughout English politics. Yeah, that's true. And I think that like the best historical stories, it has something to say to us in the world today as well. And although we're 700 years removed and, you know, sitting here on the west coast of the United States, 6 ,000 miles removed from these little villages of Essex and Kent. This idea that ordinary people pushed to the limit will take matters into their own hands and will unite under the banner of justice and a better world, that has been a part of the Western tradition for the last 700 years.
27:45And this phrase, to return to Barbara Churchman, and it's a distant mirror for us to reflect on our own times. And I think Paul is such a brilliant filmmaker. The movie that he's made is not polemic and it's not dogmatic. It's an exciting two hours, edge of your seat, historical epic. But fundamentally, it's entertaining. It's drawn out of history. I hope that people who go and watch this movie will not only convert to being fans of medieval history, will also just have that opportunity to reflect on our own times, wherever they sit on the political spectrum. And I think that one of the great things he's done with this movie is to invite people to reflect without telling them what to think.
28:27And that is the mark of a really sophisticated and brilliant storyteller.
28:32Dana Schwartz:Incredibly well said. Richard II, I find, a very interesting figure. At the end of his life, he's going to be framed as a tyrant when he's, spoiler alert, later in his life overthrown by the future Henry IV. But where do you rank Richard II among medieval monarchs? The worst and the best. And the worst in the sense that he was the one who most comprehensively, and I think knowingly and willingly, subverted everything that one was supposed to do as king. You know, where kings were supposed to be militaristic, he was pacifistic. where they're supposed to be fair-minded. He was violently partisan.
29:11Where they're supposed to be public-spirited, he was private-minded and had a sort of private army. He was a tyrant. He was a lunatic. He was the product of inbreeding. He was a great example of everything you shouldn't do in making and then maintaining a king. And he lost the crown and ultimately began the Wars of the Roses. He was self-pitying. You know, Shakespeare gets him bang to rights. Bang to rights in the Richard II play where he has Richard sort of flounce and throw himself to the ground and say, for God's sake, let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings, how some have been deposed, some slain in war, some haunted by the ghosts they have deposed, some poisoned by their wives, some sleeping, killed or murdered.
29:50Dana Schwartz:And he's doing this off the cuff for the record. He's not reading his big Shakespearean tome while he quotes this, just so the listeners know. I've probably slightly got some of that wrong. But, you know, he says, for within the hollow crown that bounds the mortal temples of a king keeps death his court. He blames the crown. He blames the country. He's always blaming somebody else. He's not only a tyrant, but a pathetic figure. That's the worst. That's the worst. The reason I think he's the best is because aren't we just captivated by the nutters? Like, it's so exciting. It's so dramatic. He's so extra.
30:25He does all this in the fanciest costumes.
30:28Dana Schwartz:And he was a child for so much of this. Gosh, you are such a mother, aren't you? Yes. He was a child. He was 10. It's a great example of how not to raise a child. Yes, this is a good reminder. I do have a son. You have a son. Do not let him believe he is the Messiah, Dana, because I'm telling you, he'll grow up to be a tyrant. Well, he's a toddler, so I am working on that. You've got to start early. Yeah. You've got to impose the lessons I'm telling you, both as a historian and as a parent. Thank you. Now, before I let you go, I want to talk very briefly about castles. Why did you choose to make the focus of your book, Castles?
31:08It connects to the Peasants' Revolt, right? What's the greatest historical site in London? It's the Tower of London.
31:14Dana Schwartz:The near impregnable Tower of London. Nearly impregnable. And look, castles are these iconic buildings from the Middle Ages, but they have this big history that takes us all the way back to the Bronze Age to Troy, you know, the emergence of castles in Bronze Age citadels, and come all the way forward to the US Civil War, you know, the third system fortresses, which were sort of blown to bits with the arrival of rifle cannon, and then to nuclear bunkers. So looking at castles gives me the opportunity to do something I love, which is to tell big stories on a grand scale, huge narratives, sweeping kind of world history.
31:49But it also, a kind of emotional touch point with them, I believe, which is why have people built these monumental fortresses over the years to protect things that they love? and what those things have been has changed and what the function of the castle is has changed. It used to be militaristic, but now if you think, I mean, Disneyland, it's the dream guardian of the great American project and the American dream. So castles is a sort of path to go wandering through the greatest eras of human history.
32:21Dana Schwartz:Have you been to Disneyland yet? Okay, here's a lesson. Have you ever been to Disneyland? No, Dana, I've never been to Disneyland. And actually, like really shamefully, and I do regret this, I always refuse to take my kids because I just, I can't. Don't be that. Do take your son to Disneyland. I'm just saying you're writing about castles. You're in Los Angeles. I should go, shouldn't I? If you're going to go see Sudbury's head, you should at least go see a castle. Do you want to make a deal? Yeah, what's the deal? I'll go to Disneyland if you go see Archbishop Simon Sudbury's head from the Peasants' Revolt.
32:57Dana Schwartz:Well, I'm going to York in the spring, so that will absolutely happen. We're going to do this. Fine. We're going to do it. It's a deal. I'll be back in the U.S. in November, so this is all going to work out nicely. Dan, thank you so much for joining me. I won't take up. I know you have a very busy day talking about the Peasants' Rebellion of 1381. The Uprising, starring Andrew Garfield, is out September 10th. Pre-order Dan's new book. He's just a treasure, the most readable historian I think we have. Thank you so much for joining us. See you at Disneyland. Thank you, Dan.
33:56Dana Schwartz:Paul Jaffe, Natasha Lasky, and me, Dana Schwartz. The show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk and Noam Scrippen, with supervising producer Rima Ilkayali, and executive producers Aaron Menke, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Saving money on everything you need for your next project at Menards. Add energy efficiency to your home with Johns Manville Foam Board Insulation. These panels combine a reflective basing with high-performance foam that creates the ultimate layer of insulation around your home to save on energy bills.
34:41Dana Schwartz:Save big on all insulation products now at Menards. Plus, check out our weekly flyer on Menards.com for more great deals happening now. Save big money at Menards. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City. I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you. 100 % of women go through menopause. Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Pointer on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
35:46You better be not just good.
35:47Dana Schwartz:You better be great. Listen to rock solid on black effect podcast network. I heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you stream podcast. This is an I heart podcast guaranteed human.
From the publisher
In the new film Uprising, a ploughman played by Andrew Garfield joins in the 1381 Peasants' Revolt against Richard II of England. Historian Dan Jones served as the medieval consultant on the film, and joins us to discuss the movie, and his upcoming book, CASTLES.
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