Beethoven's Immortal Beloved, Part 2

0:00This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang You know when people try a new food and suddenly it's like okay, hold on I got a new favorite food That's the reaction a lot of people are having when they first try Kewpie mayo Yeah, it's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle You've probably seen it at the grocery store And this mayo is different Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs Kewpie only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor.

0:34It's smoother, deeper, almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers. Chefs use it. Restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Kewpie, the original Japanese mayonnaise. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Menke. Listener discretion advised.

1:00I weep when I think that you will probably not receive the first news of me until Saturday. As much as you love me, I love you even more deeply, but never hide yourself from me. Good night, as one bathing I must go to sleep. O God, so near, so far, is not our love a true heavenly edifice, but also firm like the firmament? This is a widely accepted translation of a piece of the second part of Beethoven's famous immortal beloved letter. This portion in particular weaves together passionate language and specific references in a way that provides context clues and, almost two centuries later, still sparks debates between musicologists, historians, and ardent Beethoven aficionados.

1:56In the spirit of classic sonata form, let's do a quick recap of what we covered in Part 1. The immortal beloved letter was found in Beethoven's Vienna estate after he died in 1827 and published in 1840 by his secretary, who likely misdated the letter and misidentified its romantic mark. Further research showed that Beethoven almost certainly wrote the letter in 1812, when he was in the Austrian resort town of Teplitz. Before arriving there, he was in Prague and probably saw his immortal beloved for one, possibly steamy, night. He also must have had an inkling she was headed to Carlsbad, another spa town.

2:47This all led several scholars, especially in the U.S., to believe that the immortal beloved was Antony Brintano. Her whereabouts lined up, but this claim raised questions about Beethoven's morals and patterns of both falling for unattainable women and ingratiating himself with prominent families. Those behavioral patterns all factor into the case for the other most widely believed immortal beloved candidate, Countess Josephine von Brunswick. Just about all biographers seem to agree that Beethoven's love for Josephine surpassed all others. But does that mean beyond a doubt she was the muse of his soulful but perplexing letter?

3:40Yet again, the potential links between Beethoven's personal life and his work are too compelling to ignore. For example, what we're listening to now, a composition for solo piano titled Andante Favori, was originally a movement for a full sonata before Beethoven pulled it out to be a standalone piece. On its own, it was purportedly intended to be a declaration of love to Josephine, and one that some musicologists claim directly connects to other works in Beethoven's repertoire, as well as to that all-important letter that stirred up the eternally beguiling story of his immortal beloved. I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is Noble Blood.

4:38In 1799, the Brunswick sisters went on an exciting trip to Vienna, where Therese and Josephine both took music lessons from Beethoven. The 28-year-old composer already had an illustrious reputation by then, and according to Therese's memoirs, became so fond of her and her sister that he came every day to teach them for the rest of their stay. Later, he jointly dedicated the work Six Variations on his Ich Dink Dine for Four Hands to both of them. A highly motivating factor in Beethoven's wanting to teach the two Brunswick sisters, for free no less, was that he supposedly became infatuated with the 20-year-old Josephine right away.

5:28It's largely accepted that Beethoven wrote and unofficially dedicated multiple works to Josephine. He likely would have officially dedicated many pieces in published form to her, if not for the sizable obstacles standing in the way of their possible romance. A monumental issue was social class. The Brunsviks, who by European nobility standards were far from the most prominent or powerful, were still reportedly firmly against Josephine marrying a commoner, even if that commoner was the Beethoven, an already renowned composer and sought-after teacher. So, tragically for Beethoven, Although Josephine was reportedly his type to a T, incredibly beautiful, engaging, musically talented, her mother set her up with someone in Vienna whom she saw as more suitably high class, a man named Joseph Count Dame.

6:34Despite Josephine being much younger than the Count, and perhaps being initially ordered into the marriage, by many accounts the relationship turned into a relatively happy one. According to some sources, Beethoven was disheartened. But his relationship with Josephine did not end. He remained close with the Brunsviks and kept giving Josephine music lessons for years. Beethoven even established a close friendship with Count Dame, which makes some of Beethoven's true intentions and romantic feelings a little tricky to infer during this period.

7:17Then, in 1804, Beethoven began making his affections very clear. While Josephine was pregnant with her fourth child, Count Dame died. In an apparent attempt to comfort the grief-stricken Josephine, Beethoven wrote her the song Andie Hoffnung, or To Hope, set to text by C.A. Tiege. In doing so, he allegedly caused a small kerfuffle when a visiting prince saw the unpublished version with Josephine's name on it. Beethoven then basically had to do damage control, as word that he was planning to officially dedicate a piece to a recently widowed countess might have caused a public scandal. Still in private, Beethoven's love steadily crescendoed once the possibility of Josephine remarrying was on the table.

8:15A series of 14 love letters, he wrote to her, were found in the Brunswick family's possession and published in 1957. According to many modern historians and musicologists, these passionate messages were likely sent from 1804 up until 1809 or 1810, and Beethoven's phrasing in them is notable in relation to his immortal beloved letter. He addresses Josephine as my angel in both, and in his love letter series he makes many references to remaining faithful to her, calling her his beloved, his only J, and his beloved J. Of course, a crucial factor in all of this, and one that has spawned immense debate, is the level to which Josephine reciprocated Beethoven's feelings.

9:14Relatively little of her own writing seems to have survived, so it's tricky to gauge her emotional mindset at various points. Still, a few of Josephine's letters were ultimately unearthed. Here is a translated portion of one of her written replies to Beethoven's love letters. My soul was already enthusiastic for you even before I knew you personally. This was increased through your affection. A deep feeling in my soul, incapable of expression, made me love you. However, later in the same letter, she went on to say,

10:06Similarly, in another letter, she stated, You have long had my heart, dear Beethoven. If this assurance can give you joy, then receive it. But later clarified, I love you inexpressibly as one gentle soul to another. Are you not capable of this covenant? I am not receptive to other forms of love for the present. Some biographers have argued that, while Josephine cherished Beethoven's friendship and musical genius, she very kindly yet firmly tried to shut down his amorous overtures. Others have claimed that Josephine's true romantic inclinations are hard to ascertain since she so often had to weigh them against her financial troubles, maternal responsibilities, and family's wishes.

11:03Researchers then dialed up even more of this analytical dissonance when they eventually compiled the letters, notes, and diary fragments of Josephine's sister, Therese, and published them in 1938, long after her death. Some of these documents show that after the immortal beloved letter was published and Giulietta Giucciardi was proposed as the intended recipient, Therese doubted the mysterious letter was to Julieta. She assumed it must have been to her sister, Josephine. Although it's possible Therese's understanding of the letter's date may have still been off. In any case, here is a translation of one of Therese's entries.

11:53Beethoven, it is like a dream that he was the friend, the confident of our house. A beautiful mind. Why did not my sister Josephine, as widow Dame, take him as her husband? Josephine's soulmate, they were born for each other. The timing of the release of documents relating to the immortal beloved letter, along with the absence of some of Josephine's personal writings, does beg some questions about the Brunswick family. Did some information take a while in getting out simply because descendants and researchers needed time to comb through a large or disorganized estate? Or were members of the Brunswick family at times motivated to keep some materials out of public view?

12:46If so, was there a general fear of dirty laundry being aired? Or was there a more specific scandal? to be carefully covered up. Because, according to some scholars, there's a chance Josephine could have been in Prague on July 3, 1812. And, as the more salacious version of the theory goes, a one-night tryst with Beethoven produced a love letter and a love child. As a prelude to our celebrated composer's pivotal spa-filled summer, here's a bit more backstory, accompanied by Beethoven's piano trio in D major, Op. 70 No. 1, nicknamed the Ghost Trio. He composed it in 1808 and dedicated it to Countess Marie Erduri, who, fun fact, was another person briefly floated as the immortal beloved.

13:53While Beethoven was off courting other countesses after seemingly being rebuffed for years by Josephine, Josephine met Estonian Baron Christoph von Stackelberg in 1808. She got pregnant, and though her family was reportedly not thrilled about the match, she married Stachelberg in 1810 in a wedding with no guests. Sadly for Josephine, according to virtually all accounts, her second marriage was miserable. Stachelberg turned out to have extensive money troubles. Additionally, at that time in the Austrian Empire, aristocratic mothers were beholden to their husbands when it came to retaining custody and guardianship of their children, and Stockelberg allegedly often manipulated Josephine by threatening to take her children away from her, and often followed through.

14:54Given those familial problems, Josephine's apparent whereabouts in 1812, and her seemingly ended relationship with Beethoven at the time, many scholars ruled her out as the addressee of the immortal beloved letter. For the record, though, several did contend that Josephine was the intended recipient at different points in the 20th century. To them, the fraught but enduring romantic connection was undeniable, even if some of the logistics were difficult to explain. And over time, further examinations of Beethoven's other love letters and Therese's diary, as well as additional Brunswick family documents that have surfaced in the last 20 years, appear to have bolstered the case for Josephine, or at least weakened some arguments against her as the immortal beloved.

15:53For instance, in 2007, a Canadian musicologist found and published more documents from the Brunswick estate. Excerpts from Josephine's diary and notes left behind by her second husband, including a table of moral rules he left her to follow, make their relationship seem very rocky during the summer of 1812. They also show that Stockelberg likely left Josephine on her own that June and July. Furthermore, in a diary entry in June of 1812, Josephine expressed an intention to visit Prague. This makes it highly possible that she was in the city on July 3rd, when Beethoven potentially had a fateful romantic rendezvous prior to writing his immortal beloved letter.

16:53Deeper analysis also revealed that Josephine possibly had plans to go to Carlsbad. Currently, there's no proof she went, but her intention to go could have been enough for Beethoven to consider sending his letter to K. And her then not going to Carlsbad, after all, might have been a reason he never sent it. Here, things become more speculative in several historians' claims. Some argue that Beethoven and Josephine met in Prague, and, due to her unhappy and unfulfilling marriage, and perhaps even as the culmination of years of secretive longing, the two shared a night of passionate intimacy. Backers of this theory often point out the suspicious timing of the birth of Josephine's daughter, Minona, nine months after her apparent separation from Stockelburg, as well as remarks people made about how Minona looked very different from her siblings.

18:04A child born out of wedlock would also help to explain some of the Brunswick's later inter-family conflicts and Beethoven's cryptic messages. All that said, critics of this idea tend to dismiss it as pure sensationalism. And similar to there being skepticism about the other main candidate we covered, Antoni Brintano, there are vastly differing opinions on Josephine as the immortal beloved. Some scholars assert that Josephine clearly dashed Beethoven's romantic hopes and cut him off several years before 1812, while others maintain that Beethoven kept up his relationship, or some form of communication, with Josephine and her siblings.

18:56Some say Josephine couldn't have been the immortal beloved because of the conversation referenced in Fanny Giantaccio's 1816 diary entry, in which Beethoven said he'd gotten to know a woman five years before and that it was the greatest happiness of his life. Other question that diary's possible bias, since Fanny herself was supposedly enamored with Beethoven, and her father was sussing out whether the composer might want to marry her. Of the many researchers who do accept the entry's account, some still interpret the five years comment Fanny made in different ways. Maybe it was a rough estimate by Fanny.

19:46Was it when Beethoven met a certain woman for the first time? Or could it have been when he got to know someone more intimately? This brings us back to the subjectivity of such personal documents, and leads us to the case for one last immortal beloved candidate. Bettina von Arnim, formerly Brentano. Bettina has not gained quite the same level of scholarly support as Antony or Josephine, but she's recently garnered increased interest. She was the half-sister of Franz Brentano, who married Antony, and many of the same parameters that contributed to the argument for Antony seemingly also applied to her.

20:40Bettina also met Beethoven in 1810, thus fulfilling the rough window of Fanny's diary entry. By 1812, she was married, hence the hypothetical need for secrecy. Bettina also intended to go to Carlsbad in the summer of 1812, then supposedly changed her plans and went to Teplitz, where Beethoven wrote his letter, which would readily explain why he didn't need to send it. Bettina was also an exceedingly accomplished singer, pianist, and composer, which possibly made her especially attractive to Beethoven. Again, his romantic feelings allegedly hinged on many traits. It is interesting, though that some of his strongest infatuations did seem to involve many women who were themselves terrific musicians.

21:39One further link is that among Beethoven's surviving letters, there appeared to be only two in which he used the informal German du form of you when writing to a woman. One was his immortal beloved letter. The other was a letter he sent to Bettina a year earlier. Still, like any other immortal beloved candidacy, Bettina has detractors and possible holes. Some musicologists and German-speaking biographers claim the way Beethoven used the second person due form in his letter to Bettina seems more friendly than romantic, and that his love letters to Josephine utilized phrases that also implied an informal and coy tone.

22:33Bettina's case also took hits over the years, since she allegedly had a habit of embellishing stories, including ones involving Beethoven interacting with another famous friend, writer Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. Bettina also published letters that she initially claimed to have been written by Beethoven, that many historians subsequently discounted as forgeries, which diminished her overall credibility in certain scholarly circles. The reality is, probably no piece of evidence will appear that irrevocably proves the identity of Beethoven's immortal beloved. And maybe that's part of the enduring fascination.

23:20The letter is a romantic riddle that keeps everyone from professional musicologists to casual fans of classical music guessing and debating. And in many ways, the sheer divisiveness of various theories and staunch loyalty of certain camps speaks to the letter's incredible lasting impact. In addition to what it conveys to a possible recipient, and what it says about Beethoven, the letter also reveals a great deal about us, those who dig into its mystery. Perhaps it's easy to emotionally invest in certain speculations and candidates because it's easy to project personal feelings and experiences onto Beethoven, his fraught personal life, and the individual who earned his undying love, whoever they were.

24:17For those who have suffered through heartfelt longing and heartbreak, the way in which Beethoven closes his immortal beloved letter is often as relatable as it is raw. Be calm. Only through quiet contemplation of our existence can we reach our goal to live together. Be patient. Love me today, yesterday. What longing with tears for you. You, you, my love, my all. Farewell. Oh, continue to love me. Never misjudge the most faithful heart of your beloved. L. Forever yours, forever mine, forever us.

25:05The original pages of the Immortal Beloved letter now reside in the Berlin State Library, and its contents continue to fuel research, articles, and ample scholarly squabbling. The letter even inspired the 1994 movie Immortal Beloved that erroneously depicted Beethoven's sister-in-law, Johanna von Beethoven, as the addressee. Speaking of more improbable candidates, we are now listening to Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 28 in A Major, Op. 101, which he composed in 1815 and 1816 and dedicated to Countess Dorothea Ertmann, another pianist, around the time he was reportedly looking back on his time spent with his immortal beloved.

26:02Fascinatingly, in addition to leaving behind its own complex legacy, the immortal beloved letter might have inspired other similar love letters. Composer Richard Wagner, known to be very familiar and very enamored with Beethoven's life and work, became infatuated with a married woman and wrote her an impassioned final letter that, according to some biographers, has a striking resemblance to Beethoven's famous enigmatic message. Wagner apparently wrote his letter on the same date that Beethoven began drafting his, July 6th. It contains similar phrases, and it even seems to clearly reference specific passages Beethoven's secretary wrote about Beethoven's love life.

26:53Then, get this, Wagner's tragic love letter seemingly inspired Austrian composer Alben Berg, a big Wagner fan, to write a similar-sounding letter to the unattainable love of his life. It's worth noting that it can be difficult to delineate between composers' personal feelings, their public personas, and some of the creative trappings and tropes of the burgeoning romantic movement in Western Europe. Specifically, the notion of pining away for an unattainable love became a fashionable theme and an undercurrent of many artists' work across multiple mediums. Relatedly, there has been substantial debate over historians' and critics' shifting views on the relationship between a composer's music and their biography.

27:51Scholarly opinions vary massively on how readily we should accept musical works as outpourings of a composer's inner self. That said, this is a podcast. It would seem a missed opportunity to feature some of classical music's most timeless pieces without highlighting at least a few more possible romantic connections using Beethoven's own auditory love language. Searching for secret, musically encoded messages can certainly go too far, but there is also a humorous irony in the most narrow quests to parse every last phrase of Beethoven's letter when he often called out his own limitations with language, claiming, quote,

28:45So let's close by letting Beethoven's compositions do most of the talking. Many musicologists have pointed out links between specific Beethoven pieces and the immortal beloved letter. The music theory can get granular, and in some cases even obsessive. But three related works that frequently come up as having demonstrably similar themes are Andante Favori, written for Josephine in 1803 and 1804, which we heard in Part 1.

29:34Song number six of the To the Distant Beloved Song Cycle, op. 98, composed 1816 and set to poetry by Alois Gichlet. According to some musicologists, this was Beethoven calling out to the same Beloved, whom he told in his immortal Beloved letter, quote, I have resolved to stray about in the distance. And it contains a very similar specific musical phrase to Andante Favori. And finally, the third movement, Andante Molto Cantibile ed Espressivo of Piano Sonata No. 30, Op. 109.

30:32If you remember, this was the sonata we previously heard that was dedicated to Antony's daughter, Maximilian. But was Beethoven also using a theme originally, and maybe still, meant for Josephine? Let's hear each excerpt one more time, and then you can judge. Were these merely cases of a master leaning on a favorite motif? An emotional composer leaning into the artistic ideals of his era? A cheeky interloper hoping his beloved would hear his musical messaging? A heartbroken romantic lamenting a love that could never be? And or are these just some pieces of immortally moving music? In her mind.

31:41That's part two of the perpetually gripping story of Beethoven's immortal beloved. but stick around after a brief sponsor break to learn a little bit more about Beethoven's other famous unsent letter.

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32:52Never tried it? Grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're at the store. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Kewpie, the original Japanese mayonnaise. This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. You know when people try a new food and suddenly it's like, okay, hold on, I got a new favorite food. That's the reaction a lot of people are having when they first try Kewpie mayo. Yeah, it's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it at the grocery store.

33:22And this mayo is different. Mm-hmm. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Kewpie only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers. Chefs use it. Restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Kewpie, the original Japanese mayonnaise.

33:49When the immortal beloved letter was found at Beethoven's estate, so was one other crucial unsent document. The Heiligenstadt Testament was a message Beethoven drafted to his brothers in 1802 about his struggles with his hearing loss, depression, and related grappling over whether to commit suicide or to continue to live on for the sake of producing more music. It is tough to fully fathom the pain and isolation Beethoven endured during vast periods of his life, and his plight brings up many complicated questions regarding how his suffering inhibited or fueled his genius. One thing is for sure, though.