King James VI's Stolen Crown (with Tracy Borman)

0:00This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules. Segregation in the day, integration at night. It was like stepping on another world. Was he a businessman? A criminal? A hero? Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. Charlie's Place, from Atlas Obscura and Visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who didn't do what John of God wanted them to do, they usually disappeared. John of God was once Brazil's most famous spiritual healer.

0:48But in this limited series podcast, we uncover the darker truth behind his global empire of faith and fear. From Exactly Right and Adonde Media, this is Two-Faced, John of God. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:26Did they just say that moments? But what's the latest rumor? I'm gay, right? First of all, if I were gay, I would be gay. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Between Us, and listen now. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Menke. Listener discretion advised. I'm so thrilled, truly over the moon excited to be talking with Tracy Borman today, chief historian of historic royal palaces, chief executive of Heritage Education Trust, chancellor and professor at Lincoln Bishop University, author of the incredible new book, The Stolen Crown, truly one of my favorite books that I've read this year so far.

2:10A new book that contains, I would say, a bombshell discovery about Elizabeth I's deathbed confirmation that the crown should go to her cousin, King James VI of Scotland. the bombshell revelation that that deathbed declaration was, let's just say, less straightforward than previously believed. We'll get into that in this conversation. But before we do, just welcome, Tracey Borman. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, thank you so much for having me back. It's always lovely chatting with you. And I'm very excited to be delving into the dark world of the Elizabethan succession. So before we talk about that famous deathbed confession, let's talk a little bit more broadly about the context.

2:57Queen Elizabeth I had decided to be the Virgin Queen, obviously a strategic decision, but one that left her with no heirs. So what did that look like throughout her life? What were the pros and cons of that decision? Yes, it was a very controversial decision. And it's one that, as you say, she made from the very beginning of her reign, declaring to her first parliament that she would live and die a virgin. And I think really, although people reacted with shock, they didn't completely believe her. They thought perhaps she's just increasing her value on the marriage market, you know, playing hard to get, if you will.

3:33But then became obvious she really did mean it. And as she declared, and this is my favourite of all Elizabeth's quotes, she said, I will have but one mistress here and no master. And she meant it. And I actually personally think that in terms of Elizabeth's own reign, it was the right call, because it would have been very hard to choose a husband that wouldn't be divisive. So her sister Mary had proved how dangerous it was to marry somebody from overseas. Her marriage to Philip of Spain had been deeply unpopular, sparking revolt and rebellion. And if she'd married an English subject, that would have been no less divisive really.

4:11And there was no simple choice. And also, I think Elizabeth had been put off marriage by the example of her mother, Anne Boleyn, and one of her stepmothers and her early sort of life. So I can't blame her. I think it was the right decision. But of course, the kind of payoff was the succession, because if she didn't marry, then who on earth was going to come to the throne after her? She was the last of Henry VIII's children and the last of the Tudors. There was nobody else. So it kind of raised the stakes early on for what on earth was going to follow. And one thing that Elizabeth did very cleverly, I would say, is sort of dangle the prospect first of marriage that she probably had no intention of ever following through on, but also who would be next in line.

5:00By not naming an heir explicitly, she was able to use that promise sort of strategically and diplomatically. So who were sort of the options that she was playing with for who would succeed her? Yeah, and she was always wonderfully ambiguous about this. I think she once said, when I am dead, they will succeed that have most right. So she didn't even commit to agenda in saying that, you know, and she was very deliberately ambiguous. Of course, there were various people with a very strong claim to her throne. If we're talking blood alone, a blood tied to the Tudor throne, then Elizabeth's early reign, then the strongest claimant was her great rival, Mary, Queen of Scots.

5:44She was descended from Henry VII's eldest daughter, Margaret. Margaret had married into the Scottish royal family. But it's really important to point out, given this is all about a stolen crown, that Henry had actually banned the Stuarts from ever inheriting the crown of England. And this was kind of glossed over when later on James VI of Scotland came to Elizabeth's throne. But he passed several different acts banning the Scots and also named different heirs in his last will and testament, the sisters of Lady Jane Grey. And in fact, they were also foremost rivals for Elizabeth's throne. So we're talking about Catherine and Mary Grey.

6:24Poor Lady Jane, of course, had been executed by Elizabeth's sister Mary. And they were descended from Henry VII's younger daughter, Mary. Now, age usually counted in the succession. So Margaret had the advantage, but the fact that Henry VIII had disinherited her descendants, meant that that younger daughter, Mary, had the advantage. And among her descendants were the sisters of Lady Jane Grey, Catherine and Mary. And there was, of course, poor Arabella as well. Poor Arabella Stuart, again, descendant of that Princess Margaret, Henry VII's daughter. But she had the advantage over Mary, Queen of Scots, and her son, James, because she was born in England.

7:08And that really mattered. Like today, we talk about the United Kingdom, England and Scotland are part of the same kingdom, but they weren't at this time. And there'd been this longstanding hostility for centuries between England and Scotland. They saw each other as foreigners. You know, the people in England called Scots people aliens. You know, they didn't want a Scot on the throne. So Arbella, yes, she was of Scottish descent, but she was born in England. So actually, she gave Mary Queen of Scots and her son James a real run for their money when it came to this race for Elizabeth's crown. And I probably shouldn't have favourites, but among the claimants to Elizabeth's throne, I think our brother has to be mine, because it's such a tragic story.

7:53Hers really shows that when it came to claimants to the throne, royal blood was far more of a curse than a blessing. And ultimately, she ends up dying a prisoner in the tower. And quite a few of the other claimants meet fairly awful ends as well, because, you know, Elizabeth keeps them close. She doesn't flinch from imprisoning them, putting them to death in some cases. So it's actually quite dangerous to have a right to the throne. I think one thing you capture in your book so well is the relationship between England and Scotland at this time. I think now many readers might not quite understand.

8:32Of course, as you said, it's the United Kingdom. What difference would it make if a Scot married an English woman or an English woman married a Scottish man or vice versa? But you capture quite well the sense that if a Scottish man were to marry an English princess or an English queen, there might be the sense that it was Scotland absorbing England and not the other way around. Can you speak to that tension a little bit? Oh, yeah, there was definitely a tension because a number of marriage alliances had been proposed over the years between England and Scotland, notably between Henry VIII's son, Edward, and the future Mary, Queen of Scots.

9:09Now, Henry VIII was quite in favor of that alliance, but the Scottish people weren't because whoever had the son, the assumption was, you know, they would be the dominant one. And then that was switched around when, of course, Henry VII's daughter, Margaret, married the King of Scots, James IV. And Henry VII had a lot of opposition from his government saying, look, what's going to happen? Are they going to be King and Queen of England? And that means that the King of Scotland really is going to be running the show. A hundred years later, how right would they be? Exactly. Exactly. This marriage is pivotal in the history of not just the Elizabethan succession, but the British monarchy as a whole.

9:47So Margaret of England married James of Scotland in the year 1503. She was just 13 years old. James was 30. And it'd be a few years before she had a child, but she gave birth to that crucial son, James V. And it was his daughter that was Mary, Queen of Scots. So you can see how close Mary, Queen of Scots, was rather to the Tudor throne. And she had a very, very good pedigree. But as I say, you know, Henry VIII didn't think so much of the Stuarts and neither did Elizabeth's subjects, really. So it was definitely not straightforward. There is nothing straightforward about the race for Elizabeth's throne.

10:25And I think that's a really crucial point as well in that for four centuries, we've been kind of sold this narrative of a smooth transition, Tudors to Stuarts. It's all very natural and predetermined. And now, of course, with this new discovery, we know it was neither of those things. So throughout Elizabeth's life, was it sort of assumed that James was the frontrunner or is that sort of retroactive history? I think it's definitely a retroactive history. He was certainly one of the lead contenders. And to be fair, Elizabeth showed him an advantage that she showed none of the other claimants at all.

11:06Being a man, I imagine that gave him an advantage as well. This is so depressing, but so true. It really counted. You know, this was not an age where women were supposed to rule. They weren't even supposed to rule their own lives, let alone a kingdom. And yet England had had three queens in succession, Lady Jane Grey, Mary, Elizabeth. And one of Elizabeth's government actually said, the people of England are wishing no more queens. So great though Elizabeth was, there was a sense that, yeah, we need a king next. So that did give James an edge. And also Elizabeth gave him an edge because, fun fact, they established a correspondence that lasted longer than any two sovereigns in the early modern period.

11:53So they wrote more letters over a longer period of time than any other two sovereigns. 30 years their correspondence endured. James was just six when he wrote his first letter to Elizabeth. And the letters are all really on a theme. I mean, there are lots of niceties and expressions of friendship, But Elizabeth is very definitely trying to help James. She's advising him how to be a good king of England, effectively. You can't help think she's kind of grooming him for the role sometimes, although she never quite commits. She'll then kind of backtrack and just casually mention Arbella or one of the other claimants, kind of leave James wondering if she really does want him as the next king.

12:36And of course, there was the slight damper of the fact that she had to execute his mother, Mary Queen of Scots. Yeah, it's the elephant in the room, isn't it? The fact that she orders his mother's beheading. And that definitely challenges this friendly relationship that, you know, had endured for many years up until this point, until 1587 when Mary was executed. And it was really fascinating actually reading their correspondence at this point, because first of all, Elizabeth tries to avoid the blame for this, saying anything from, oh, I didn't realise it was the warrant I was signing, the execution warrant.

13:15And then saying, yeah, but I didn't mean it to be issued. And I never gave the order for that. Actually, she was on shore ground with that. She never did give the order for the execution warrant to be issued. But by then, her exasperated counsellors like, just send the thing to Fotheringay and let it be done, because they'd waited so long for Elizabeth to act against Mary. So she apologizes to James, but she also tries to free herself of blame. James, now you might think he's going to be furious with Elizabeth, and his subjects certainly are. In fact, half of Scotland is calling on James to go to war against England to avenge his mother's execution.

13:53But James doesn't really want to, because he grew up not knowing his mother. He was just months old when she fled to England and he took over the crown of Scotland. And he was raised by men very hostile to Mary. Protestant men. And that's really important to point out, thank you, because of course, Mary is a great Catholic figurehead. One of the reasons she's so dangerous to Elizabeth for so many years is Elizabeth Protestant. So any English Catholics look to Mary and they plot against Elizabeth to put Mary on the throne. But now there's this difficult situation because James, personally speaking, doesn't have a strong connection to his now dead mother.

14:35And yet his subjects are calling on him to go to war. But he also doesn't really want to rock the boat because he desperately wants Elizabeth to name him her heir. So there's this kind of little dance that takes place in letter form between Elizabeth, who's kind of going down on bended knees, begging his forgiveness, and James, who has to kind of appear a little bit cross that she's accidentally chopped his mother's head off, but then remarkably quickly forgives her rather for the whole thing. And they both sort of agree, water under the bridge, it's all in the past, we won't talk about it. And let's just go back to our friendly letters.

15:14And that's exactly what they did. Neither of them referred to it ever again. Well, let's let bygones be bygones. What's a little execution between friends? Another thing that you make very clear in your book is that the throne of England really was a prize, especially compared to the throne of Scotland. I think people hear, well, if you're a king, you're a king. But as you mentioned in the book, I think I have in front of me that it was the income of the English monarchy was 19 times the income of the Scottish king. England was far more cosmopolitan, many more cities. It was a real prize that King James was fighting for.

15:55He really wanted England. He really wanted England. It was the superior kingdom. I'm not saying that from an Anglo-centric point of view. Obviously, I live in England, but it was superior in wealth, in its position in Europe, in being the envy of Europe in terms of this kind of glittering court that Elizabeth had established. So it was a real player on the world stage in a way that Scotland wasn't. And it had riches, as you say, 19 times the income of the Scottish crown. So no wonder James was rather keen to get his hands on that English crown. And he wasn't terribly subtle about it. He was constantly in these letters that passed between London and Edinburgh pleading with Elizabeth, look, just name me your heir.

16:43Let's just settle this once and for all. And Elizabeth was brilliant at what her contemporaries called answers answerless. So, you know, she sent back this reply that was kind of an answer, but actually didn't really give him what he wanted. And she would always use the prospect that she might name him heir as like a carrot that she would dangle in front of him to sort of make him behave, to make him a good ally to England. So he was always very, very conscious that he couldn't really upset that delicate balance with Elizabeth. And of course, he wouldn't want any physical harm to come to her because, you know, once he was named heir, then, you know, heaven forbid, if anything should happen to her, it would be his for the taking right then.

17:31That's funny you should say that. Because in 1598, so Elizabeth's well into her 60s by now, there's a sense that she's living on borrowed time. But to James, it seems like the Queen of England is just going on forever. She's never going to die. And still, she hasn't named him her successor. And there is a little hint, more than a hint, that actually in 1598, James lost patience. Because in that year, a man with the wonderful and almost false name of Valentine Thomas, pretty sure it's a false name, he was arrested on the Scottish border. And he was arrested for stealing horses. But when the English authorities questioned him.

18:16They got more than they bargained for because Valentine Thomas attested that he'd had several meetings with the King of Scots in Edinburgh, during which he had agreed to James's request that he ride south to England and he murder Elizabeth and he would be paid very handsomely for it. Well, Elizabeth was told of Valentine Thomas's confession and she chose not to believe it. And whether or not she actually did, but she chose not to. But as a courtesy, she wrote to James just to kind of inform him of the whole thing. But she said, look, I'm going to cover it all up. Don't worry. Valentine Thomas is in prison.

18:57Nothing's going to come of this. And this is one of many occasions when James really should have listened to Elizabeth's advice because he never did. And I should have made that clear. All of those letters really were in vain. James just thought, what does she know? She's just a woman. So he kind of besieged Elizabeth with letter after letter, outraged that he'd be named in this plot and protesting too blooming much that he had had nothing to do with it and saying, no, no, wasn't me and never met the man. And he did it so many times that Elizabeth got really suspicious of him and thought, why is he doing this?

19:35And then James went even further and he insisted that Elizabeth publish a proclamation to the people of England, clearing his name of the Valentine Thomas assassination plot. But of course, all this did was to make the people of England aware of the plot and to make them suspect that James really had been involved. It's a Tudor example of the Barbra Streisand effect. Don't draw people's attention to this. Exactly. If you don't want them to know about it, really don't protest about it. It's exactly the Barbra Streisand effect. I thought of that very thing when I was writing the book. It's like, come on, James.

20:14Ah, just listen to Elizabeth. And it really did damage his standing in England and with Elizabeth. And I think Elizabeth was just, whether or not she was really suspicious of him, she was exasperated with him. She's like, just come on. This needs to just go away. But James wouldn't let it go away. And it was to his cost.

20:38For decades, people traveled across the world to see John of God, desperate for cures no doctor could offer. And when they arrived, they saw things they couldn't explain. This is real. This guy's actually doing surgery, and it's a miracle. I never believed that miracles were real until that point. But behind those adoring crowds was something much darker. One of the reasons why I never went to the police is because I saw at least five or six men with guns everywhere he went. That was clear to me, like, close your mouth, don't open your mouth, don't say anything. I'm your host, Martina Castro. And in the podcast Two-Faced, John of God, we'll look back on a man who claimed he could perform miracles and got people from all around the world to believe him.

21:27From Exactly Right and Adonde Miria, this is Two-Faced, John of God. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

22:02Equal parts smart, funny, and a little bit scandalous. Every week, Heather will bring you an unapologetic take on the headlines, the trends, and the cultural moments everyone's texting about. And Terry will deliver insider beauty, health, and wellness insights you won't find on TikTok. Together, we'll tell the stories, spill the secrets, and share the hacks that keep life, marriage, and everything in between feeling fresh and fun. We may live in a gated community, but there's zero gatekeeping here. And plenty of, did they just say that moments? Listen to Between Us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

22:38Segregation in the day, integration at night. When segregation was the law, one mysterious Black club owner had his own rules. We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world. Inside Charlie's Place, Black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it. You saw the KKK? Yeah, they were dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and Visit Myrtle Beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time.

23:27Until now. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

23:38For decades, people traveled across the world to see John of God, desperate for cures no doctor could offer. And when they arrived, they saw things they couldn't explain. This is real. This guy's actually doing surgery, and it's a miracle. I never believed that miracles were real until that point. But behind those adoring crowds was something much darker. One of the reasons why I never went to the police is because I saw at least five or six men with guns everywhere he went. That was clear to me, like, close your mouth, don't open your mouth, don't say anything. I'm your host, Martina Castro. And in the podcast Two-Faced, John of God, we'll look back on a man who claimed he could perform miracles and got people from all around the world to believe him.

24:27From Exactly Right and Adonde Media, this is Two-Faced, John of God. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Almost 30 years together, four kids and some of reality TV's most unforgettable moments, we know a thing or two about living life out loud. We're taking you behind the scenes in our new podcast, Between Us, with me, Heather Dubrow. And me, Terry Dubrow. Between Us isn't about perfect lighting or curated Instagram grids. It's the unfiltered, behind-closed-doors conversations you wish you could eavesdrop on. Equal parts smart, funny, and a little bit scandalous.

25:05Every week, Heather will bring you an unapologetic take on the headlines, the trends, and the cultural moments everyone's texting about. And Terry will deliver insider beauty, health, and wellness insights you won't find on TikTok. Together, we'll tell the stories, spill the secrets, and share the hacks that keep life, marriage, and everything in between feeling fresh and fun. We may live in a gated community, but there's zero gatekeeping here. And plenty of, did they just say that moments? Listen to Between Us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Segregation in the day, integration at night.

25:43When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules. We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world. Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it. You saw the KKK? Yeah, they were dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and Visit Myrtle Beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

26:38Skipping forward just a little bit to Elizabeth's deathbed. The story, as it's been popularly understood, largely from an account by a man named William Camden, is that on Elizabeth's deathbed, she pretty explicitly named James as her heir. But as you reveal in this book, that might not have exactly been the case. That's exactly so. Now, there's fascinating new research by a student called Helena Rotowska, working with the British Library. And she was studying the original manuscript of William Camden's Annals of Elizabeth, his History of Elizabeth, which runs into several volumes, by the way.