This Is Not a Drill: Hawaii's Text Message Debacle [from Very Special Episodes]

22:12Dana Schwartz:Unlike the others, this one is unscheduled. Second, workers are notified of the drill via telephone, not in person, also unusual. And the office is playing a recording, meaning the voice communicating the fake threat is an unfamiliar one. The person announcing the drill is supposed to say exercise three times, both before and after the command. So it might go something like, exercise, exercise, exercise. A ballistic missile is headed our way. Exercise, exercise, exercise. This is to make absolutely positively certain everyone understands it is indeed a drill. But one of the workers on shift that morning doesn't hear the word exercise over and over.

23:08Dana Schwartz:Maybe the phone connection is bad. Or perhaps someone had the person on speakerphone and then picked up a receiver cutting them off. No one is exactly sure. So this employee hovers his mouse cursor over the drop-down menu. There are two options. Click Test, and you'll satisfy the drill. Click Missile Alert, and you'll notify hundreds of thousands of people that nuclear winter is imminent. Hawaii is the only state with a pre-written alert like this, thanks to its proximity to North Korea. The employee who has not heard the word exercise, and is instead fixated on the phrase, This is not a drill, clicks the second.

23:56Dana Schwartz:There's just one safeguard. The software asks the employee if they're sure. He clicks. Yes. And suddenly, cell phones begin to vibrate. People picking them up and eyeing them with confusion, followed rapidly by fear. Inside Haima, employee cell phones begin going off, too. It's a symphony of catastrophe. Ballistic missile threat inbound to Hawaii. Secret immediate shelter. This is not a drill.

24:32Dana Schwartz:Like the others, Cynthia Lazaroff got her notice of doomsday on a cell phone. So it's kind of an interesting little sidebar here because my phone was actually on silent, but our nephew was visiting and he came running in and held his phone up and he was panting. He had run quite a distance to get to us. He had been doing, I think, yoga down near the beach and it had come through and that's how I found out about it. There's a slight delay in Cynthia and her husband, Bruce, getting the alert on their phone, which gives her a fleeting bit of hope that maybe it was a prank or hoax, but then her screen lights up.

25:18Dana Schwartz:Unlike many others, Cynthia is able to put the crisis in more context. She's a documentary filmmaker who has spent decades examining and participating in U.S. and Russia relations pertaining to nuclear weapons. She's keenly aware of the omnipresent threat of the world taking a sudden, sharp turn toward a global conflict. In fact, she had just spoken to former Secretary of Defense William Perry. And he said to me that today we're at a greater risk of some sort of a nuclear catastrophe than we were during the Cold War, and that most people are blissfully unaware of this danger. That because we don't understand the danger, he said, we make no serious attempt to repair the hostility between the United States and Russia, so we're allowing ourselves to sleepwalk into another catastrophe.

26:14We must wake up. So for me, at that moment, with my background and expertise, I realized that I'd been sleepwalking myself since the end of the Cold War. And that was a sort of devastating personal revelation for me.

26:30Dana Schwartz:Living in Kauai, the immediacy of the nuclear threat is like nothing she's ever experienced. It's largely something she's examined in the abstract. But because of her knowledge, she knows how long it might take to get a ballistic missile from North Korea to Honolulu. Friends are calling to ask her exactly that. And I said, well, I'm not sure. If it's a submarine, it could be very, nothing. I mean, we don't know. I mean, a submarine could be very fast in terms of when I spoke to them and how many minutes had already unfolded. And I said, you know, it could take 25 minutes if it's a launch from North Korea.

27:07It could take 25 minutes from the soap. It all depended on where it was coming from. But I knew that it was a matter of, you know, within that window of time, it'd been a matter of minutes. But I also lost track of time.

27:21Dana Schwartz:And she also knows about radiation. There is precious little she can do about that, but she does grab some clothing to use as protection. So I grabbed a bag, a woven bag, and I started throwing things in it. I threw in my phone, my phone charger, my computer, my computer charger, my purse, my passport. And then I grabbed a shawl to wrap around my face in case of radiation. And then a pair of leggings for the same reason. And then I thought, food and water.

27:57Dana Schwartz:She and her husband, Bruce, also a nuclear expert, decide to seek shelter at a friend's property. That's when I began to think, well, the first thing was, well, where do we go? And we decided to meet and shelter on a neighbor's property who has a meditation cave because it was the most sealed environment that we knew we could get to quickly. And then it was, well, what do I take with me? And I looked down at my phone and it had 12 % charge and I thought, what am I going to do? Cars are speeding upwards of 100 miles an hour. Other cars cross the median. Some are pulled over. Everyone is in a hurry to get somewhere, most not knowing where that somewhere should be.

28:45Dana Schwartz:Like many others, Cynthia has family on the mainland. Her oldest daughter. Family that may not have any idea what's happening. and family that may not fully understand why she needs to speak to them for what she believes is the last time. So I parked the car as close as I could to the steps to the cave and I started running towards them. It was still ringing and ringing and just as I got to the foot of the steps to the cave, she picked up. And I said, Mackenzie, I don't know if you've heard, but we've all got this message on our cell phones that's going to be hit by a nuclear missile. and we're going to shelter in the cave if we can.

29:27And I'll call you if I can from the cave, but I just want you to know that I love you. And she said, Mom, I love you too. At that moment, time stopped for me and I just stood there frozen. It was the moment that it all became the most real for me. And I thought, am I ever going to hear her voice again?

29:53Dana Schwartz:There was another thought. If Cynthia could survive, would she want to? Today's nuclear arsenals are a thousand times more powerful than the bombs dropped in 1945. Depending on how far I would be away from the epicenter, etc., if it struck anywhere nearby, first of all, the chances of survival would be minimal. And then if I did survive, there's the understanding of based on what we know what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki just the horrors of what happened to the people who immediately survived but were suffering from radiation sickness etc. One of the Hibakusha survivors of Hiroshima, Setsuko Thurlow describes them as you know when she was a child she was a school child who survived and she saw what she thought were ghosts, you know, with skin falling off their bodies and blood.

30:50I mean, everything you can imagine, just horrific. So I thought I probably wouldn't be able to survive and that I probably wouldn't want to survive. I mean, Khrushchev, the Soviet leader, said that the living would envy the dead after a nuclear war.

31:13Dana Schwartz:At Haima, workers realize the alert has gone external. At this point, you'd think there would be something like an undo button, another single mouse click that could retract the alert and send out a notice that it was just a drill. But the software doesn't have that. There are just two options, fake alert and real alert. The employee who pressed the button or clicked the drop-down menu is frozen in place. Other employees scramble to take over his terminal. While they can't take back the message, they can prevent it from being sent out over and over again. If someone had their phone off or is out of cell range, then canceling it means they won't get the message when they turn it back on.

32:02Dana Schwartz:That's better than nothing. But actually reversing course and letting people know they're not in danger of nuclear annihilation is proving to be challenging. Within minutes, Haima is able to call the Honolulu police and notify them of the error. While that allows cops to inform people individually and through the bullhorns on their patrol cars, the police don't have enough reach on social media to spread the word quickly. 9-1-1 is overwhelmed. Instead of getting a few hundred calls that time of day, the norm, they get over 7 ,500. Instead of gushing out via a single channel, the correction trickles out, and relatively few people see it.

32:53Even when they do, how do they know what to even

32:56Dana Schwartz:believe. There's a bigger problem. HAEMA is under the impression, the mistaken impression, that they need to reach out to the Federal Emergency Management Agency, or FEMA, for guidance on releasing a retraction. There are different types of recalls, and they want to be sure they use the right one. They actually don't need to confer with FEMA on this, but they think it's the prudent thing to do. But trying to establish contact with FEMA wastes more time, which is already flying by. By the time FEMA gets on the line, it's 8.30 a.m., 23 minutes after the alert had been sent. There's social media.

33:45Dana Schwartz:State Governor David Ige opens his Twitter app, or what's now known as X. But Ige has a problem. He can't remember his password. What could be an official channel for getting the word out that the alert is false isn't going to work for another 15 minutes. Hiema employees can post to the agency's social media accounts, but not everyone is going to think to check those pages. The same holds true of local news. At 8.19, Hawaii News Now is able to confirm the message was sent out in error, but only to people with the Hawaii News Now app on their phones. It only adds to the chorus of confusion. Haima has one card left to play.

34:37Dana Schwartz:Create, on the fly, a retraction message in the AlertSense program. That's the channel reaching the greatest number of people and the quickest. But that message can only be drafted and sent via another portal. So Haima waits as an employee works remotely, manually programming an all-clear message. This will take a relative eternity of about 14 minutes. Across Hawaii, people are continuing to seek what shelter they can. Some are climbing into bathtubs. Others are spotting fallout shelters left over from the Cold War, wrongly assuming that they lead to safe harbor. But virtually all of those signs are relics that lead to shelters long since repurposed or closed up.

35:29Dana Schwartz:As Haima works, much of the island is wondering what to do with the few minutes they have remaining. Cynthia is one of them. She gets off the phone with her daughter. Jogging toward the cave, she sees her friend smiling. I ran up the hill to the cave. And as I got to the door of the cave, it opened. And it was my neighbor, Colleen. And she walked out smiling. And she said it was a false alarm. It took our government 38 minutes to send a message out on our cell phones announcing that it was a false alarm. In the closet, John Aaron gets the same message. We were there for like the full, you know, 30 plus minutes, just sitting and waiting to see what was going to happen.

36:18And then I don't know if someone knocked on the door or if someone all of a sudden got a little bit of cell service, but we heard, you know, hey, we got the all clear. And, you know, it was just the biggest relief washing over you after that.

36:30Dana Schwartz:And so does Holly Dubé. Then we got a text over our phone again or an alert over our phone that said, this was a false alert. There is no nuclear bomb. Repeat, there is no nuclear bomb. You're not in danger. And everybody just sort of quietly dispersed. The Hiema employee working on the message has finally succeeded. The alert read, there is no missile threat or danger to the state of Hawaii. Repeat, false alarm. Highway signs offer the same information. Missile alert in error. There is no threat. It took 38 minutes from the time the alert was sent out to the time the correction was made. 38 minutes for an untold number of people to confront their mortality, say goodbye to their families, and wait for impact.

37:25Dana Schwartz:What the people in Hawaii experienced was human error turned into human terror. But in the nuclear age, it's not unheard of. And worse, it's likely to happen again.

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40:23Dana Schwartz:Everyone knows at least something about the Cuban Missile Crisis, which brought the threat of nuclear destruction to the feet of President John F. Kennedy. This government, as promised, has maintained the closest surveillance of the Soviet military buildup on the island of Cuba. Within the past week, unmistakable evidence has established the fact that a series of offensive missile sites is now in preparation on that imprisoned island. When nuclear superpowers have very real, very human people at the helm, mistakes can be made. And when you realize that, it's almost a miracle what happened in Hawaii doesn't happen more often.

41:12And then my favorite, there was one in Chicago. The White Sox, I believe, had won the pennant. And the fire marshal was also the person in charge of the air raid siren. and he thought it would be good fun to celebrate this by setting off all the air raid sirens and indicating that nuclear attack was about to begin.

41:34Dana Schwartz:That's Alex Wellerstein. Alex is a Harvard-educated historian of science at the Stevens Institute of Technology. He's a nuclear historian. And for him, the Hawaii incident is, well, kind of inevitable. If you have a sufficiently complicated technical system and it involves humans interacting with it and it can have technical errors of any sort, especially ones that involve sensors that are pointed at the sky and things like this, it's inevitable that you'll have some level of error. In 1979, NORAD computers began lighting up with information that prompted defense workers to sweat profusely. It looked as though the Soviet Union had launched nuclear weapons directly at the U.S., seemingly intending to disable U.S.

42:33Dana Schwartz:defense capabilities. Fighter planes were launched before satellite data was retrieved, indicating it was a false alarm. Someone had mistakenly inserted a training tape into the computer systems. A similar incident took place in 1980, when U.S. defense computers warned that Russia had dispatched more nuclear missiles. Quickly, one could see a pattern in the data. It went from two missiles to 200, then zero. It was glitchy. And again, fighter planes were in the air, but it was an error, this time coming from a faulty computer chip. Russia isn't exempt from scares either. In 1983, the country's version of an early warning system detected five missiles coming from the United States.

43:25Dana Schwartz:The monitoring worker Stanislav Petrov could have acted on it and could have conceivably started a world war. But as Petrov would later explain, he didn't think the U.S. would kickstart Armageddon with only five missiles. His common sense may have spared us all. But these are examples of internal errors. Public-facing ones, like Hawaii's, are vastly different in that they cause widespread panic and misinformation. These are, thankfully, rare. But Americans have endured them before. In the late 1950s, a number of false alarms went off in American cities, including that World Series flub. In each case, only a quarter or so of people took the alerts seriously.

44:19Dana Schwartz:Ideally, these events would not happen completely in vain. They provide priceless data on how people respond at this level of crisis. But as Alex points out, data collection around them has generally been poor. So this accident, it's not a good thing, but it does create conditions that allow us to answer questions we can't otherwise answer. Like what would happen if we sent everybody a text telling them that a nuclear missile wasn't coming? My sense is it wasn't studied as closely at the time as it should have been. Researchers did make some discoveries, like how people respond to these alerts can depend on demographics.

45:04Dana Schwartz:Younger people tend to be more likely to make assumptions about them being false or unreliable. Acting on the belief nuclear war is no longer a pressing concern. Older people might be more inclined to believe them. Education matters too. But one of the ones that fairly educated people had was they said, well, I knew that we weren't going to be at a war with North Korea at that moment, so I knew to dismiss it. And in some ways, that's the scariest response, because what do you know about what's going on in Pyongyang? Do you even know what time zone it is over there? Do you know what's going on?

45:41Dana Schwartz:False alarms introduce another problem. The prospect of nuclear war can feel so remote that when we hear of a mistake, we might be more inclined to treat the next alert, maybe a real alert, like a mistake too. In Hawaii, some people reported that they disregarded the alert because it wasn't accompanied by air sirens used for natural disasters. A pretty major assumption. Will people disregard the message, though that is something worth worrying about. But with something like the Hawaii accident, is that going to make a place like Hawaii far less likely to broadcast the message or add hesitancy if they're not sure if it's real because they realize the political consequences are potentially very high for them?

46:30Dana Schwartz:So what's the answer? Alex is an advocate of preparedness. Think Bert the Turtle, the genial character used by the Department of Defense to sell kids on the idea of Cold War drills in the 1950s. And especially in a democracy, we have some say in this. So that's my argument. Not so much that hiding under our desks is the best strategy, though in some cases it's not the worst strategy, but that this is a possible tool for thinking about nuclear weapons in a much more serious and tangible way than we tend to think about them.

47:13Dana Schwartz:The Hawaii alert was, in a way, real. It was alerting us to the fact that in the face of actual nuclear attack, most of us wouldn't know what to do, where to go, or whether it's even survivable. A survey of 2 ,000 Americans published in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists found nearly a quarter of people had given no thought to their game plan in the event of nuclear war. But what would that preparation even look like? Part of Alex's research is to look at the real-world consequences. If North Korea, or another country, had launched a nuclear strike, what would have happened? Hawaii has some unique geography.

48:00Dana Schwartz:There aren't many homes with basements that could theoretically provide some cover for one thing. Homes are usually wood construction, not concrete or brick, which makes fire a problem. The mountains would reflect much of the blast, keeping it concentrated. That's just a few of the many variables. Is it going to detonate on the ground, or is it going to detonate in the air? Are you aiming at, like, a military base, like Pearl Harbor? Are you aiming at Honolulu because you want to do the maximum damage to maximum people? For any of those scenarios, you'll get somewhat different answers. How far off from its target does the weapon detonate?

48:44Dana Schwartz:According to NukeMap, Alex's simulation of nuclear strikes, a missile launched from Pyongyang to Honolulu could conceivably kill 158 ,000 people in an instant. Many more would be injured, and others would endure, as Cynthia explained, a fairly horrific radiation-related demise. There was also this. When a false alert is dispensed, there's always a possibility it triggers reaction before retraction. What if someone in a position of power had taken the alert seriously and retaliated? This might sound far-fetched, but think about it. If a nuclear alert is triggered, our government only has a small window of time to react.

49:34Dana Schwartz:Remember that 1980 false alert? When asked if that could have conceivably started an escalation leading to World War III, Assistant Secretary of Defense Thomas Ross told reporters, I'm going to duck that question. That's not too comforting. A massive bit of misinformation like this false alarm, which could be regarded as that, could lead to escalations that would have really bad impacts. It's totally plausible. This is especially the case with systems where, for example, in the United States, the use of nuclear weapons is something that a single person, the United States president, can make the decision about that.

50:16There are not a lot of safeguards there. So I'm not saying it's something where you should be worried about this as the number one worry on your list of worries. But if you're asking, is it possible? Is it plausible? Sure, it's totally possible and plausible. Do I think that it's super likely?

50:33Dana Schwartz:No, not super likely. And we know it sounds sensationalist, very TV movie of the week. But that's the point. If we don't confront the horror of nuclear fallout by confronting the devastating consequences, then we risk becoming numb to the idea. So how do we prevent it from happening again? There were, of course, state and FCC investigations into the hows and whys of the Hawaii alert. Haima called it a combination of human error and inadequate safeguards. The drill took place during a shift change, the agency said, confusing workers. The head of Haima resigned, as did the executive officer. The employee who selected the nuclear option was first reassigned and then fired.

51:32Dana Schwartz:Some employees alleged the man, who had worked at Haima for over a decade, had made mistakes before, confusing fake alerts for real ones, an accusation the employee disputed. While he said he hadn't heard the word exercise, other employees said they had. Speaking to the press, he insisted he hadn't made a mistake, That he heard the words, this is not a drill, and nothing else. He did as he was trained. He thought a nuclear missile really was coming to Hawaii. He remained anonymous out of fear some angry locals might seek retribution. This was probably a good decision. One man who managed to get through to 911 told a dispatcher that someone, quote, deserved a beating for the mistake.

52:27Dana Schwartz:Another Haima employee had his photo taken by the Associated Press standing next to a computer monitor that ran with stories about the mistake. Some readers inferred he was the employee at fault and sent him death threats. He actually wasn't even in the office that day. In the end, only four medical events connected to the alert were officially reported. This included one elderly man who fell, one minor car accident, and someone who phoned 911 out of anxiety. No surprise there. The man who suffered a heart attack lived to sue and settled with the state in 2025 for$275 ,000. In July 2025, Haima sent out another emergency alert via phone notification.

53:19Dana Schwartz:This one was clearly marked, this is only a test. The Hawaii false missile alert was an exercise in a certain kind of psychological experiment it would be impossible to ever replicate. For nearly 40 minutes, people believed that their time was coming to an end. It was a kind of near-death experience, though one that had implications for the entire world. So what happens after? How does that kind of event change how you live a life you didn't think you'd even have? For John Aaron, it meant realizing you could count on your brand new spouse. It was just like you'd been hit by a truck, you know, and you were just dealing with the aftermath.

54:11Yeah, no, I think it showed that we could trust each other implicitly and that we can work as a team. Like I told you, she told me to get my butt in gear and get out of the hotel room when I was taking too long. I told her, we need to get down, we need to get lower, and she followed my lead on that. So, you know, I think it was a good give and take, and I think we knew that we could go through a really tricky situation together without melting down at each other, without, you know, getting caught up in nonsensical stuff.

54:40Dana Schwartz:For Cynthia, it was about recommitting to the idea of disarmament, part of her life's work. We've been so lucky. And I think people just need to understand that this isn't a dinosaur issue that went away at the end of the Cold War. That it's not something that's in the past. That it's right here and now. So that's, I think, the first thing is to wake people up. The days following were interesting. It was an apocalypse that didn't happen. And, you know, it was an Armageddon that didn't begin. And so for me, I decided pretty much in that moment, I mean, I got home and the other thing that was going on for me is that my senses were all enhanced.

55:25It was like I was a child again. I have a crown flower bush. I'm looking at it right now outside my front door. and the colors were all more vibrant than I'd ever seen them before. The greens, the purples, there were butterflies dancing and flying everywhere. And I just stood there and stared. And I'd never done that before.

55:46Dana Schwartz:Like a child would do at the wonder of life. But something else surprised her. Even knowing the effects of radiation sickness, even after hearing about the suffering of survivors, when the moment came, she wanted to live. I found myself thinking, oh, I didn't do what I was supposed to do. I didn't think I could survive. I didn't think I'd want to survive for the reasons that I've mentioned. And now I'm in this moment, and I want to try.

56:19Dana Schwartz:For Holly Dubé, it meant marrying her skills as a songwriter with her need to process what had happened. After getting back from Hawaii, she remained in bed for two weeks. the post-traumatic stress of the situation, leaving her exhausted. I would say it was really life-changing. So I think going through that made me look at my life differently in that I kind of took on the philosophy of if not now, when? Am I waiting to do anything that I've wanted to do? Am I showing enough love to the people that I love? Am I being who I want to be? Am I doing everything I should be doing? So it gave me, in a way, I would say a sense of abandon about holding back for anything.

57:07And it's actually been lovely and wonderful.

57:10Dana Schwartz:Later in 2018, she began processing that trauma through her own unique lens, one that was formed by songwriting. I felt better after two weeks. But after that, and kind of after digesting that whole experience and so forth, I felt like in one of those old movies, I'm going to write a musical about that. This Is Not a Drill had its off-Broadway premiere in late 2025. It's about what happens when people are faced with their mortality as the seconds tick down. I would say that to anyone, whether or not you had thought you were going to get blown up by a nuclear bomb. Do what you want to do. Don't be afraid.

57:54You know, explore your creativity. Ask for that new job. Ask for a raise. Go ahead and do it. Because none of us gets out of here alive, right?

58:09Dana Schwartz:I just have to say, I find this episode so viscerally scary. I feel like I was scared for days after. Just like the horror of having to look your own mortality in the face. It like this truly is my nightmare situation. And it's also honestly a nightmare situation for the guy who messed up at work, like imagining screwing up that badly. Oh, yeah. I've thought since we first recorded this, like, OK, who do you call with that last call? If you're with your family, do you still call? I call my mom. Do I try to post something on social media that more people will see? Do I try to capture? Always thinking if we get out of this, it would be good to have some contemporaneous audio of the event just in case.

58:53Yeah, I think I go full journalist at that point and just start recording sound on my phone so I could have the document and then hopefully they either find my phone or I survive and I can be like, this is what it was like. Yeah. When we're thinking about very special character, I think it's Holly who is in the moment thinking about, well, how are they going to identify us if we're blown up here? Cynthia looking down and seeing like, oh, man, my phone's only at 12 percent. That is like almost as terrifying to me as the text itself. Yeah, that is 100 percent how I would be in a nuclear Armageddon.

59:25Like right now, my phone's at 14 percent. So I'm just that person. I was like, that's so real. Aaron, there are a lot of characters in this one. I was able to cast him. You were. All right. Yes. I went through and I thought for John Aaron, the morning news anchor, the birthday boy, I thought Aaron Eckhart. I just felt like he had that kind of like morning news anchor in Hawaii kind of thing.

59:46Dana Schwartz:Yeah. He has that chin. Yes. Right. And then for his wife, Natalia, Aaron, I thought Rachel McAdams. I may be like, you know, swept up by the recent movies she's been in. But for Holly Dubé, I was thinking Olivia Colman. I I just thought because she seems both practical, but also somebody who could say the word torso and make it really hit. And then for the nuclear experts, Cynthia Lazaroff and Bruce Lazaroff. I love, by the way, that they go to a meditation cave. That detail is amazing. So I wanted to make them a real life married couple. So I picked Rachel Weitz and Daniel Craig. I could just somehow see the two of them both being nuclear experts.

1:00:19They're just so smart. This is another one that I'm surprised to see. It doesn't appear to have been made into a movie yet.

1:00:25Dana Schwartz:Great. Although there is that movie that Catherine Bigelow just made that I can't remember the name of that's about like countdown to a nuclear disaster. Yes, I saw that. It's pretty harrowing. Yeah, it makes you realize like it's just a matter of pushing buttons and people panicking. And like also speaking of pushing buttons and people panicking, how does the system not have a let's undo this notice or send out a second notice? Like how do you design the program and not have like another button to push? Yeah, I think they probably revised the system. Or how about the governor who can't remember his Twitter password, like, or his X password?

1:00:58I thought that was amazing. But David E.K., I was like, are you kidding me? Once again, very relatable. Very special episodes is made by some very special people. This show is hosted by Dana Schwartz, Zarin Burnett, and Jason English. Our senior producer is Josh Fisher. Today's episode was written by Jake Rossum. Editing and sound design by Chris Childs. Mixing and mastering by Josh Fisher. Additional editing by Mary Dew. Original music by Elise McCoy Show logo by Lucy Quintanilla Social clips by Yarberry Media Executive producer is Jason English If you ever want to email the show, you can hit us up at veryspecialepisodes at gmail.com Very Special Episodes is a production of iHeart Podcasts

1:02:14We'll see you next time.

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