Greg Brew on Surging Energy and the 'Strategic Trap' of the War in Iran

25:17They also happen to have all of the guns. So as with other authoritarian governments, not just today, but going back 50, 60 years, this is an environment, this is a political context where the mass of people don't really support the government and would love to see a different government, but it's difficult for them to implement change given the obstacles that they face. And unfortunately, January was illustrative of all of those realities. The attempt to effect change through popular demonstration was put down with overwhelming and lethal force. Just going back to Trump and potential off-ramps here.

25:56I mean, one thing we know about Trump is that he really seems to like owning stuff, right? And he seems to like taking stuff that he doesn't necessarily have explicit sovereignty over. And there have been some rumblings recently about possibly taking the Strait of Hormuz and having some sort of coalition with allies where they would control that particular passage. First of all, do you get the sense that that's actually an off-ramp that he's thinking seriously about? And And then secondly, is that realistically an option for the U.S. to do, given that its allies in particular don't seem to be particular fans of the Trump administration at this moment in time?

26:37Yeah. So on the first question, I think, again, speaking to how kind of problematic the context of this crisis is for Trump politically and strategically, if he chooses to deescalate, you know, he looks weak and he hands Iran a pretty significant win. And I also think that it's difficult for him to deescalate with the situation in Hormuz being what it is, with traffic at a standstill. And, you know, to make matters worse, the Iranians allowing certain ships through. Yeah. Right. They've been making bilateral deals with Pakistan, with India to allow a couple of ships through at a time, demonstrating for all intents and purposes that they control the Strait of Hormuz, not the United States or not anyone else.

27:14So I think it's very problematic for Trump to decide to wind down combat operations, wind down this war against Iran without having dealt with the strait in some way. The problem is there are no good ways of doing that. They're trying to degrade Iran's capabilities, bombing its drones, bombing its missiles to a point where ships will feel comfortable moving through the strait. But it's taking them a long time to do that because Iran has a lot of missiles and it has a lot of drones. And the geography of the Strait of Hormuz, parts of it are extremely mountainous. Iran has spent decades building positions to do this.

27:49I mean, again, it speaks back to their strategy. They've been preparing for this for a long time. This is a war that they've been thinking about fighting for a very long time. So it's taking the U.S. a while to weaken Iran to the point that the tankers and the other ships feel comfortable using the strait. On the question of an international coalition, bringing in more states, more countries, bringing in more ships would make this easier. The problem, of course, is that the United States, the Trump administration, doesn't have the best relationship with most of its European allies. There was an attempt initially to put together an international group to bring in the French, bring in the British, bring in others.

28:25And the Europeans were initially on board. The problem, though, is that that shifted with Trump using this maybe as a source of leverage, of trying to get the Europeans to actively join the war and bomb the Iranians, not just protect ships. Also using this to maybe move the Europeans on issues like NATO funding, on issues like Russia, Ukraine. And so the Europeans moved from saying, OK, we'll help you to you're on your own. You know, we'll come and help move ships through the strait, but only if there's de-escalation. so it's another aspect of the kind of strategic trap that the united states finds itself in it's fighting an enemy who can't really be fully deterred or degraded an enemy that is resisting being coerced or forced into capitulating an enemy that can't undergo a political change through decapitation you know like they're killing leaders but those leaders are just being replaced very often by more hardline figures.

29:24And the problems associated with reopening the strait are just proving to be, I think, far more challenging than they had expected, if they had expected to deal with this at all. There's evidence to suggest that the administration didn't really think too much about Hormuz when it launched this war.

29:40Tracy Alloway:Can you talk to us about just, I mean, you mentioned the European allies. Can you talk to us just about the future of America's relationship with some of the Gulf friends, the UAE, Saudi, et cetera, and the degree to which this could permanently alter the trajectory of that relationship? I mean, they didn't start this war and now they have all this damage to their economy. Exactly, exactly. And it also, you know, it speaks to the longer term issues that this war represents. Because if you assume that the war is going to end in some kind of limited fashion, right, the Islamic Republic is not going to collapse.

30:16There's not going to be a regime change. the war is going to end with Iran still having a couple of drones and missiles left over. Very weakened, but still there. The issue for the GCC, for the Gulf states, with that scenario is that it's extremely dangerous. They are now facing a regional power that is comfortable attacking them aggressively if it gets attacked, even if they had nothing to do with it. And again, it's part of Iran's strategy. They're trying to impose as much pain as they can on everybody in order to raise the costs of this ever happening again. They're thinking not only about this war, but they're thinking about future wars.

30:51They're trying to restore deterrence. And this puts the GCC states in a very, very awkward position. On the one hand, many of them would like to see this war end more conclusively with the threat of Iran, not just degraded, but neutralized because leaving it in place is so dangerous to them. On the other hand, they likely know that that's impossible, that this isn't going to end with regime change. So what do they do? I think counterintuitively in the short term, most of them are going to pursue closer relationships with the United States because they have no other choice. They need to improve their security.

31:25Most of them right now are relying on U.S. support for their air defenses. They need the U.S. to restock their supply of interceptors. They need the U.S. to help them shoot down Iranian drones, Iranian missiles. Also, historically, all the states of the GCC depend on the United States for protection. They have their own militaries. They are generally not regarded as being extremely capable. So they do need ties to the U.S. to secure themselves. And this war has, if anything, made that relationship with the U.S. all the more important. But that's not enough, because they've now seen that if the US attacks Iran, they will be on the front lines.

32:04So they're likely going to have to balance that somehow. They're likely going to have to balance that by perhaps pursuing closer relationships with each other. You know, there was already kind of some momentum before this war on regional security relationships. Saudi and Egypt becoming closer, the UAE and Israel pursuing closer ties. Saudi and Pakistan have a mutual defense treaty now. They will come to each other's protection. They will come to each other's aid if they're attacked. Although Pakistan is not attacking Iran, even though Iran is attacking Saudi Arabia. So the full value of that agreement is maybe somewhat suspect.

32:37But that, I think, is another potential avenue that they may go down. They may look to one another to improve their security rather than depending on the United States, which is proving to be in the short term a crucial ally, but in the long term, a very problematic partner. So on that note, why did Iran actually decide to go after countries that did not attack them? You know, Gulf countries, ex-Israel and the United States. Because, again, like it's never really done this before. And the expectation certainly of people who moved to places like Dubai and Abu Dhabi, and I count myself in that bracket, was that Iran probably wasn't going to ever target them.

33:17It relates to Iran's broader strategy. not only its strategy for surviving this war, but its strategy for improving its deterrence and reducing the possibility of this happening again, of future attacks. The bigger scenario that the Iranians are more concerned about is a scenario where Iran turns into Lebanon or Iran turns into Syria, a country that you can just bomb, that Israel can just bomb whenever it wants to. They're very, very concerned about that becoming the new status quo. So that is what's driving their strategy. They want to restore deterrence. And their way of doing that is indicating to everyone, the United States, Israel, the GCC, but the entire world, that attacking us is not worth it, that we will respond by imposing more pain, more costs on you than you can impose on us.

34:09The Iranians love to demonstrate this. They love to talk about this. And I think they are illustrating it, that they are more resilient, that they can take the hit, that it doesn't matter that the US and Israel have air superiority over Iran. It doesn't matter that they're killing leaders or striking targets in the hundreds, in the thousands. That at the end of the day, the Iranian government, the Iranian military is more resilient and can outlast any of its competitors. Now, the reason why they're striking the GCC is there are two reasons for this. One, more immediately, the GCC is a more tempting target.

34:41These are soft targets. Energy infrastructure is fairly easy to do damage to a level that causes the facilities to have to be shut down. for repairs. The GCC do have air defenses, but the targets the Iranians have been going after are not hardened in the way that, you know, US bases or Israel are hardened. Israel is extremely well defended with its multi-layered air defense systems, with its civil defense, you know, systems. Israel is kind of a fortress state in many ways because it has sort of lived under the threat of outside attack for so long. The GCC isn't like that. And on top of that, it speaks directly, Tracy, to what you're saying, the Iranians are trying to show the GCC states and particularly the UAE, your model of economic development, this idea that you can turn the Gulf into an island of stability with tourism, with finance, with tech, with hotels, all of that will go away if we keep being attacked.

35:38If the US and Israel keep bombing us, we are going to turn the Gulf into a live fire zone. And eventually that will make your economic development plans impossible to achieve. So they're imposing all these pain, they're imposing all this cost. The second reason they're doing this is they are indicating to the GCC that their relationship with the United States is untenable. That so long as they allow the US to have bases in the region, so long as they allow the US to support their security, that from the point of view of Iran, they are US allies, They are U.S. instruments, and that makes them legitimate targets.

36:12Yeah, Joe, just on the UAE, I think this is a really important point to stress because I think a lot of people don't realize that they're not seeing everything that's happening in places like Dubai and Abu Dhabi at the moment because you have, you know, very strict state control on the images that are allowed to come out there. And in fact, I think we've seen at least one person arrested for sharing a photo of a drone strike or something like that. So stuff is happening there. And it's stuff that if you're an expat who came to that city thinking that it is safe and secure, you never really would have imagined.

36:48Tracy Alloway:By the way, headline breaking just now from Reuters, Iran's attacks damage 17 percent of Qatar's LNG capacity for three to five years.

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39:27Tracy Alloway:Greg, tell us about Karg Island. I'd never heard of it before a week ago. It's a place that's very close to my heart, Joe, because I researched a little bit about it when I wrote my book, which is all about, you know, the 50s, the 60s, the sort of origins of Iran's oil industry. I didn't get around to actually mentioning it, though. Unfortunately, I think I had to cut that reference for space. I hate it when that happens. Yeah. I know. It's a real bummer. So Carg Island is - I just want to say, Carg Island has the name of like a legend, like for thousands of years, invaders have tried to take Carg Island.

39:59The lost treasure of Carg Island.

40:01Tracy Alloway:Yeah, every, all the great civilizations have met their demise on Carg Island. It has that sort of sound, like great powers all like taking the knee. But anyway, tell us what Carg Island is. Oh, sure. Their ghosts haunt the beaches to this very day. So Carg Island is a very small island. It's smaller than Manhattan. It's just off the coast of Iran, about 50 miles off the coast. It's at the north end of the Persian Gulf. So a little bit close to Kuwait, that neighborhood. And it is Iran's principal oil exporting terminal. It handles around 80 to 90 percent of Iran's crude exports. Iran exports around 1.5, 1.6 million barrels a day.

40:41Almost all of it goes through CARG. And there are kind of two big reasons for that, because Iran does have other export ports that it can export crude products, LPG from. CARG is the big one. The two reasons for it is it's designed to handle VLCCs, the biggest oil tankers. It has several berths that can handle, I think, up to seven tankers at a time. So it's a very large facility. It was originally built, incidentally, it was built in the early 1960s by Western companies that were active in Iran at the time, specifically because it was favorable for birthing the largest tankers. So that's what it was originally designed for.

41:18It's also close to Iran's main oil fields. So it's fed by a number of pipelines from the coast that bring crude directly from Iran's major oil fields in the province of Khosastan in southwest Iran. So geographically, it's well positioned. The facilities there are designed to handle a lot of oil better than any other facility in Iran. And that's what makes it so important. And that's why the US is so interested in it. Because there is in a belief, there is a theory that if you seize Karg Island, or if you destroy it, but I think they're thinking more about taking it, then you have sufficient leverage over Iran that you can get them to do what you want, because you've cut off their financial lifeline.

41:59You've eliminated their ability to export oil. Ergo, they will be forced to do what you want in order to start exporting oil again. That's the thinking. The problem I have with that theory is that I don't think it's right. All right. Say more. Okay. So first of all, as I mentioned, Iran has other means of exporting oil. It has other export terminals. There's one at the town of Jask, east of the Strait of Hormuz, that the Iranians have built up precisely because they're concerned about their reliance on Karg. It's smaller, but it can still handle probably about a million barrels a day with the other terminals operating.

42:31So if they lose Karg, they can still export crude. But let's say that the US goes all out and takes out all these terminals, right? Either bombs them or sends in the Marines to storm the beaches and seize the terminals. And Iran suddenly can't export any oil from these ports. Iran still has a limited capability of exporting oil by rail. They have a rail link with Russia. They're trying to build out a rail link with China. Now they can't move much, but open source and Iranian media has revealed that they have several hundred oil tanker cars that are sufficient for moving probably the equivalent of 100 to 150 ,000 barrels of oil a day if they were running all out.

43:07The other element of this is that Iran has, because it's been operating under sanction for so long, Iran, or I should say the regime, has means of moving oil that are not as easily observed. So oil gets smuggled out, particularly through Iraq. It gets loaded onto smaller tankers and smuggled out. Iran is a very, very large refining base, and it's been very profitable for groups attached to the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps to buy crude inside Iran, refine it, and then smuggle it out of the country and sell it for huge profits, because oil is subsidized inside Iran. So you can get it for virtually nothing, and then you can sell it in another.

43:47So there's other ways that they can move energy and move oil without having to rely on CARG. A lot of those ways are controlled by the IRGC, which would probably become even more powerful in the event that Iran loses CARG because suddenly they have greater control over a smaller fiscal pie. And this also speaks to the psychology of the event. The Americans, I think, assume, or perhaps elements of the Trump administration assume, oh, if we take CARG, then they have to do what we say because they're going to want to export oil again. I think that misunderstands the, let's say, psychological characteristics of not only the Islamic Republic, but also of the Iranian state, they will respond extremely negatively to US soldiers on Iranian soil.

44:29They will respond very negatively to any overt attempt to force capitulation. And I think it's certainly for the short term and probably for the medium and long term as well, they would rather live under greater financial pressure and an inability to export oil in volume than to capitulate to a U.S. pressure campaign that involves the invasion of Iranian territory. This reminds me of something that I wanted to ask exactly on this point, which is I think one of the underappreciated facts of this particular situation is that Iran's been sanctioned for a while and this gray market infrastructure already exists.

45:10And so I'm curious, but assuming that if the U.S. were to try to crack down on some of that sanctioned oil and the way it actually gets out of the country, would you expect that gray market system to start to break? Or would you expect to see it sort of like, I guess, maybe formalized to an extent or grow even stronger in the face of U.S. pressure like on Karg Island? Well, it's been a long running dilemma for the United States, which is how to make sanctions work on Iran. I mean, part of the reason why we're now in a shooting war with Iran is because sanctions didn't work. Sanctions were designed to change Iran's behavior, to force them to make concessions.

45:53Iran found ways around the sanctions, refused to make concessions, and the U.S. felt, I think, compelled to some extent to use military force, although I think there were lots of other reasons on top of that. If the U.S. were to, let's say, take CARG, but also to try to really vigorously eliminate Iran's ability to export oil. First of all, I think it would have to be pretty comprehensive, and I think it would have to be pretty aggressive, and it would have to be sustained for quite a while, right? Patrolling Iran's coastline, it's about 1 ,200 kilometers long, stopping any and all ships that are trying to exit Iran's export terminals, clamping down on overland routes.

46:31Iran smuggles oil through Iraq. It also smuggles a certain amount of oil through Turkey and into the Caucasus and into Pakistan. That trade is much more difficult for the U.S. to interdict. And that's where a lot of this illicit kind of gray market activity happens, on top of the black market activity. So I think the upshot of trying to cut off the flow of oil with the means that the U.S. has, including military force and interdiction, only incentivizes the Iranians to turn to these alternative routes. At the same time, what you're doing on the market level is you're putting more upward pressure on prices.

47:04Tracy Alloway:Yeah. Yeah. You're creating an environment of higher prices, which only further incentivizes gray and black market activity because now the profits are even better. It's interesting. Any country that has some heavily subsidized domestic price of anything, we're going to keep the domestic price of gasoline or oil well below the global market price. I mean, that's just a bonanza for smugglers, right? I mean, like that must be just like the more you press that button, the greater the incentive is for someone to find that and move it onto the world market. I mean, I think this was, of course, a story in the sort of late Soviet era.

47:39Tracy Alloway:You have these like price controls and then you have these quasi state companies just absolutely making a fortune, finding a way to like, you know, sell the locally made toaster in Europe or whatever it is, just make a fortune. I hadn't really thought about that, though, in the context of Iranian oil. All right, let's just go back to the pure energy question. I mentioned the damage that we've already seen in just a few weeks of the war to LNG exports and et cetera. There has been this obvious mismatch and expectations. A lot of people think Trump would fold. Perhaps the reason oil isn't higher currently right now is still this sort of embedded expectation that Trump can't take this much longer.

48:21Tracy Alloway:Let's just say it goes on, like how bad could this get? And do you think that still today the price of oil reflects perhaps an unrealistic expectation that this war is going to end soon? And how much do things just compound and metastasize the longer this goes on? And where might we see the price of some of this stuff? What does it look like in your crystal ball? So I think expectations are definitely shifting or have shifted to the belief that this is likely going to go on for a while and that the supply effect is now such that prices are going to stay high for the rest of this year. High relative to what we thought that they would be, right?

48:56When we entered 2026, there was this broad expectation that this was going to be a pretty soft market, that there was going to be an imbalance of supply over demand. Demand growth was going to be pretty soft, pretty sluggish. And that was going to keep prices low. It was going to keep them in the 60s, maybe in the 50s per barrel. That has all changed now. I think seeing oil prices fall below$75 a barrel by the end of the year is pretty unlikely, even if this conflict wraps up very quickly. I mean, looking at three things, the front month, the Brent front month being at about 113, 112, I think that's approaching realistic expectations because Hormuz is still closed because some amount of crude is getting out via Saudi and UAE pipelines, but those pipelines are vulnerable and they can be disrupted.

49:40And as we've seen, the Iranians have the ability to do pretty significant damage to energy infrastructure if they really go for it. I mean, Joe, you mentioned the damage done to the Qatar facility last night. That was, I believe, one missile that got through and caused enough damage that they'll have to keep the facility off for a long time and has now cut production for years to some extent. And so that's one missile. And I think they could do more if they wanted. They could go after tankers more aggressively. They're keeping their powder dry in the Strait of Hormuz for the most part. They're mostly operating off of threats.

50:11So if things were to get worse, which they very well could, prices could go higher. The other price point to look at is spot price for physical cargoes coming out of the region. If the front month is around 111, and that's the futures, the price of a barrel of Omani crude right now, you go to Oman, you buy a barrel of oil, is over$150 a barrel. That's the premium that's now being placed on Middle East production, out of Oman, out of the UAE. and those prices are coming through Asia and the Asians are now bidding up the price of oil coming from other markets. So you're gonna start seeing that reflected elsewhere, right?

50:47Oil coming out of the US is gonna start ticking up. Oil coming out of other production hubs is gonna start ticking up. The final point that I would say, the final sort of price point that I would look at is when you look at the curve, when you look at prices over the next 12 months, all of them are higher than they were a week ago and they're still coming up. They're still rising. The expectations are that this isn't going to end soon. And even if it does, the size of the physical disruption that we've seen so far is going to create constraints on supply going through the next 12 months. And that's even with releases from strategic petroleum reserves, right?

51:21The U.S. releasing oil, other IEA members releasing oil. That's going to alleviate the pressure somewhat. But at the same time, those are stockpiles that are going to have to be refilled. And I think everybody is going to be very concerned about having a low inventory of oil when this war is over, because everyone's going to be thinking about this happening again if the Iranians survive, which they are likely to. Also, doesn't it take a while for oil released from the SPR to actually get into the market, which I think is also underappreciated? Yes, it's slow. It's a slow process. The U.S. can only they say that they can release one point four million barrels a day.

51:56It's probably more like 1 million barrels a day. And it eats into U.S. crude export capacity. So if you're releasing oil from the SPR, you're kind of holding back on crude exports from commercial producers because they all come out of the same infrastructure. The SPR releases are more a signal. They're more a saying, like, the inventories, you know, here's oil that will be on the market over the next three to four months to make up for a physical shortfall, an actual shortfall of supply. Because if there weren't SPR releases and everyone was just forced to eat the supply loss, which is approximately 10 million barrels a day right now, I mean, that's 10 percent of global supply that is just not getting to where it needs to go.

52:37So I just have one last question. Since the theme of this conversation or one of the themes has been this idea of hypotheticals turning into reality, just going back to the old Strait of Hormuz closure thought experiment that probably everyone in oil and gas has dedicated some time to in recent decades. Now that it's actually happening, is there anything about the situation that has surprised you as it's been playing out? And, you know, honestly, what's been surprising to me, two things that have been surprising to me, how little the Iranians have needed to do to Hormuz to keep it shut. They've struck about a dozen tankers.

53:16They haven't sunk any as far as I know. They haven't laid more than a few mines as far as anyone is aware. Activity at Hormuz has been pretty quiet because as soon as the war began and as soon as the Iranians said straight of Hormuz is now closed, all the shippers stopped. Nothing was moving. The threat was enough to keep it closed, which I thought was surprising. The second surprising point, and this kind of feeds into the first, is that I was told, my understanding was that this was a scenario the U.S. Navy had prepared for. They had lots of plans in place. They knew what they needed to do to keep Hormuz open in the event that the Iranians tried to shut it.

53:51And then the Iranians shut the Strait of Hormuz, and the U.S. response has been insufficient. It's not only that they haven't done enough to open the strait, It's that they didn't seem to have expected this at all, that the Iranians would respond to this kind of an attack by playing their principal Trump card. So between the effectiveness of the Iranian strategy and the lack of a strong U.S. response, a strong U.S. effective response has been really surprising to me.

54:21Tracy Alloway:Greg Brew, fascinating conversation. Love catching up with you. Truly the perfect guest. Thank you so much for coming back on Appa. Thank you so much for having me back.

54:43Tracy Alloway:Greg's just the best. So good. He's so good. I mean, you know, all of our guests are perfect guests. That's right. That's right. But Greg is a Greg is a perfect guest. Truly the perfect. No, that was a fascinating conversation. I mean, I think he laid out very clearly the strategic difficulties that the U.S. now faces. And actually, you know, you mentioned Carg Island sounding like, you know, a place where great powers. Julius Caesar met his demise at Carg Island. Alexander the Great, you know, whatever. So I was thinking, like, one of the things that still amazes me is that geography still matters in the world, right?

55:19Like you have all this high-tech, high-tech missiles, high-tech drones. But actually, we're still limited by geography in many ways.

55:27Tracy Alloway:I had that thought when he mentioned how mountainous the areas were around the Strait of Hormuz. And it's like, OK, why can't the U.S. simply take out Iran's capacity to fire drones and missiles at the ships going through? Well, it's heavily fortified deep in the mountains in the area. Not easy to spot, not easy to target, et cetera. So, yes, geography, geology, et cetera. Extremely important to this question. The other thing I was thinking, this is a very serious conversation and this is not a very serious comment, but, you know, he mentioned very large crude carriers, BLCCs. I love how literal that name is.

56:04Whenever I hear anyone mention that, I just think like there was a guy one day who invented the ship and he was like, you know what, we're not going to call it like a brig or a schooner or something. We're just going to call it what it is, a very large crude carrier.

56:18Tracy Alloway:That is very funny, actually. Look, there was a lot there. The other thing, and I think it was the last point, is this idea that, and it's sort of ominous, which is everyone sort of assumed that the Navy would have had a straight-form moves plan, given the amount of time and energy that's been thought about contingencies and what a disaster this would be. And yet. And then it closes, and then it's like, oh, what? What are we doing? We're going to have a plan. You know, it's very, everything felt so far is we are planning to have a plan and so forth. And so the idea that you'd start this war with at least the possibility of the strait being closed and then it's closed and you basically do nothing and nothing passes at all.

56:59Tracy Alloway:Pretty worrisome on, I suppose, both a sort of immediate and long term level about what the state of planning and then the state of military capacity for what should have been at least a possibility understood from the very beginning. Yes. And also there's just an asymmetry at play here, which is like every day that goes on that sees some significant energy asset, whether it's in Iran or in Qatar or elsewhere in the Gulf region. That like echoes for months. Right. Like the daily time frame for those assets getting destroyed is very short. So just in two or three weeks, we've seen a lot of stuff get damaged.

57:41But the time frame for the actual impacts of all of that to come to fruition and ripple throughout the economy are very, very long. And so I just think like with every day this goes on, with every additional bit of infrastructure damage, it just gets worse and worse.

58:00Tracy Alloway:It gets worse and worse. And as you said, there's one missile, right, in some of these instances. And you're talking about years of damage to infrastructure, which is pretty ominous for any sort of expectation that, again, Trump could taco. Right. He could declare war and still talk about years of repercussions from this. So, yes, pretty serious consequences to all of this. All right. On that note, shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart.

58:32Tracy Alloway:Follow our guests, Gregory Brew at GBrew24. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at CarmenArmond, Dasho Bennett at Dashbot, and Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks. And for more OddLots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash OddLots. We have a daily newsletter on all of our episodes. And you can chat about all these topics 24-7 in our Discord, discord.gg slash OddLots. And if you enjoy OddLots, if you like it, when we continue to roll out these emergency episodes, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad-free.

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