How a Sardine Gets From the Ocean to a Can

29:42Yeah, I mean, I think it's the same stories as like all American manufacturing stories. There were once booming canneries on either coast of the U.S. In California, probably red cannery row or on the coast of Maine. There were these bigger, more industrial canneries. And a combination of factors contributed to those shutting down. Basically, like most canneries in the U.S. shut down like 15 years ago. Now, today there are this is an estimate, but I would say like five ish in the lower 48 and then probably several more in Alaska. Alaska is where you would find some of the bigger, more industrial canneries that are doing like commodity Alaskan canned salmon, etc.

30:29But yeah, I think due to a combination of factors, I know that there were really stringent FDA rules or put in place about 15 years ago that a lot of the canneries in the US couldn't upkeep, couldn't manage. Some of the fisheries really declined. So the Pacific sardine and anchovy fisheries, there have been moments of real decline on on both the east and west coast. And with the decline of those fisheries and the shutting down of those fisheries, the canneries followed because obviously. And then having this very cheap processing available in various parts of Asia, so much of the processing moved over there, like you were saying, with the Alaskan processing that you see in China.

31:11So it's a common story and it definitely is what happened in the U.S. Sorry, just to be clear, the Moroccan sardine situation, it's not that you can't can sardines in Morocco. That's where the sardines themselves are caught and then exported to the canning places in, it seems, mostly Spain and maybe Portugal. Is that right? That is that is correct. There are there are certainly canneries and cannery infrastructure in Morocco, but so much of the of the raw material from the Moroccan sardine fishery was being exported to Spain. I think it was like 90 percent of the raw material in Spanish canneries of sardines was coming from Morocco.

31:57So, no, they have the canning infrastructure. And I think what we're seeing here is that they are preserving the raw material for their own exports because the ban is just on frozen sardine exports, not canned sardine exports. So Morocco is is protecting its raw material and is able to maintain its industry. It's very meaningful, large industry of exporting canned sardines. So has that affected Fishwife personally, I guess? It has, but not in the ways you would necessarily suspect because we have never sourced from the Moroccan sardine fishery. We have been sourcing from the Cornish sardine fishery for about five years.

32:44That at the time that we started selling sardines. Cornish, so Cornwall, England. England. It was the only MSC Marine Stewardship Council certified sustainable fishery in Europe at the time. Then MSC is the most globally recognized certifying body for wild fisheries. It's the one that Fish Wife goes by. So we were sourcing from this Cornish sardine fishery. And then the Iberian sardine fishery was actually MSC certified, I believe, last year. And so we started sourcing from that fishery as well, which is really exciting. So we're sourcing from these two MSC certified fisheries, now the only certified sustainable sardine fisheries in Europe.

33:27So we weren't affected in terms of our raw material supply being impacted. That being said, with, you know, so much inventory disappearing from the market, we saw our sardine sales starting in, I would say, December of last year, like start to go hoo-hoo bananas. I think it was kind of first two to three X velocities that we had been seeing before. And it has sustained and gone even up to, you know, four or five X, which is massive. So, you know, getting calls from buyers that are retailers saying, hey, like my sardine shelf is completely wiped out. Can you step up and step in and and supplies with sardines?

34:12And, you know, I remember having this conversation with my with my head of sales was like, we can do it. We're going to have to air freight the product in order to get it there in time. You know, we usually try to send things by, quote unquote, slow ship, which is the most economical, also the most environmentally sustainable. And, you know, we had to make the hard decision of like, OK, are we OK with our gross margin being compressed by these air shipments? As you can imagine, they are extremely expensive in order to capture the demand, maybe introduce new customers to Fishwife sardines. We did make that choice many, many times over for many retailers.

34:49And it's just been so much demand for the sardines that we just haven't seen go down. I think the crazy thing is we also saw this huge trend around sardines also kicking up at the same time. So I was going to say, in the course of my due diligence for this podcast, I went on the canned sardines subreddit, a very active subreddit. And there were a few people complaining about they couldn't find sardines at their local Trader Joe's or anything like that. And there were a bunch of posts also extolling the health benefits of sardines and making me think that maybe I need to try them.

35:27Tracy Alloway:No, I think just from a health perspective, canned fish is just like a great way to get some protein. I put it in salads. I'll like put canned tuna in a salad or something like that. I'm a big advocate. First of all, I find it interesting that actually people evidently want sardines so bad they're willing to trade up. So like some like market goes away and then they'll like go to the premium. But I want to talk a little bit more about like, you know, when I think of the DTC brands that truly like grew up in the age of like the golden age of Instagram, like the 2010s, you know, it seemed like the big opportunity was find a product that's very expensive.

36:08Tracy Alloway:Let's say like a Warby Parker, you know, you don't really need to pay$350 for a pair of Luxottica glasses. We could build this for$20. We'll spend$10 on advertising, and then we'll sell the product for$100. I'm just making up these numbers. And then we make$70 in profit. And it feels like there were just tons of companies, and they came out of business school and stuff like that. And they all identified all of these opportunities to find something that was premium and then make a commodified version, cut out the middlemen, do some good branding, make it a little glossy, put it on Instagram, et cetera.

36:41Tracy Alloway:It feels like this is kind of the exact opposite where you have to invent a new category that doesn't really exist. Is this in part just like a function of like the changing – I'm interested – like the media marketplace such as that playbook? Like now if you started the Warby Parker, rather than paying$20 for the Instagram ad, you'd pay$79 and left with a dollar margin or something like that. And that you actually have to like do something totally different in order to build a DTC brand in the 2020s. Yeah. I mean, to be clear, DTC makes up about 20 % of our business. So it is a minority channel for us.

37:20All right. Even though it is incredibly, incredibly important for Fishwave, but it's certainly not the business that we're like building our economics around, you know, food businesses you're going to build in retail like that is where the volume is. That being said, I think, I mean, doesn't totally answer your question, but like people want really quality products and people are willing to pay for them. I think that's what we've seen. Yeah, I think it's some crazy stuff, like 50 percent of the spending right now is being done by like, I don't know, like five percent of our population. Something crazy like that.

37:56People are just willing to pay for a much higher quality product. First of all, I think a lot of us were honestly burned with with some of those DTC brands where they're touting themselves as a low as a lower cost, but equally high quality version as the like sort of traditional like whatever, Lake Jose, whatever, you know. Um, and maybe that didn't turn out to be the case for a lot of them. I know I bought a bed frame from one of these companies and by God, I was worse. $800 I ever spent.

38:25Tracy Alloway:Can I just make a plug for a brand though? I just like, they did something good. And so I just feel like, like 10 or 11 years ago, we bought a, uh, an away suitcase and it like started breaking down recently and the zipper broke. They replaced it for free. And so like, even though I was 10 years old, so I was like, Oh, pretty, like, I think it is probably a marginally less quality product than whatever the incumbent suitcase company was at the time. But I was pretty surprised they actually replaced a broken suitcase. I'm right there with you. I own three away suitcases and they're amazing. There's exceptions to the rule every time.

38:59And I think with Fishwife, it's like, no, we're selling a super high quality product made by multi-generational European family owned canneries. It just is as good as it should be and needs to be. And we're not like doing any highfalutin new age stuff. I'm attracted to that. I think other people are attracted to that. Just knowing like this truly is the just the highest quality product. We're not we're not cutting corners here to make a cheaper, cheaper product.

39:42Joe, you should make a way pay for their advertising. I know.

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42:27PayPal Open, built for all business. Visit PayPalOpen.com to get started. That's PayPalOpen.com. Away from personal brand preferences and just going back to the sardines for a second. So there are a bunch of different themes or keywords that I hear here. So one is more demand for sardines. Sardines are having a moment. The other one is climate change. And we talked about the shortage of plankton due to potentially warmer waters. We've also been hearing about overfishing for ages and ages and ages. And you often see these competing headlines where, you know, people say the world's fish population is in danger.

43:09And then two months later, it's like, oh, no, we figured out more sustainable ways of fishing and this demand or the supply is resilient and all of that. When you look at the sardine shortage, which of those factors matters the most to you in the current moment? I think as a headline, the frustrating thing about seafood sustainability is that it is endlessly nuanced and it's changing constantly. So even with the sardine, the Moroccan sardine situation, they started to see a decline in the catch in 2023. It was down about 46 percent. um that's only three years ago like fisheries science moves somewhat slowly doing assessments of fisheries takes a really long time so tldr everything that's being talked about all of the theories that you mentioned tracy are just that they're theories and they're also like contributing factors to you know a much bigger picture that probably all of them are contributing not a single one and it's hard to tell to what degree you're just contributing so i'll like speak to these these theories that are that are currently in the conversation sure so the first that seems most likely is climate change generally so there are warming waters in the mid-atlantic that forage fish like sardines like anchovies like mackerel are very very sensitive to water changes.

44:36So when the water temperature changes, they are likely to migrate to colder waters. So it might not even be that there are less sardines. It might simply be that the sardines have migrated somewhere that the commercial fishermen have a lot of difficulty accessing. It could be deeper in the water. It could be further in the water. They are just there. They're in a new location and it's not where where the fishermen are used to catching so that seems to be the most likely theory warmer waters can also trigger like unexpected changes in in the food web obviously everything in the ocean is connected and when you know water temperature changes it can mean also there are more predators that are actively catching fishing fishing in the area So like you said, Tracy, humans are not the only ones that are catching sardines.

45:33So are tuna and other fish. So there might just be more active predators in the area. There's also the plankton theory, which I think a lot of people are writing about, which is that the warmer water has triggered maybe less or less nutrient-dense, fatty, caloric. I hate a skinny plankton. I know. Oh, absolutely. I hate when you get served one of those. But those can lead to, you know, leaner, less fatty sardines, which are the ones that folks are looking to catch. So there are all these factors in combination, definitely all tied up in climate change. Hard to know which is contributing the most.

46:14I think one thing that's interesting in this circumstance is from what I can tell, like overfishing is not not the main culprit. So I mentioned MSC earlier. That is, you know, the certifying body that we most lean on and look to the Monterey Bay Aquarium Seafood Watch at a mouthful. They're also a very globally respected certifying body. And they're the ones that have given I think this fishery currently has a yellow rating, which is not bad. But basically, in their assessment is that the fishery is being well regulated. Strong enforcement is in place, which leads me to believe that it's less than overfishing and more of a of a climate climate issue.

47:01I think one thing that's really, really important to highlight is that when you see, you know, this is not a fishery shutdown situation. This is a like, you know, frozen sardine export ban situation. But when you do see, you know, a market being capped on a fishery, it seems a little bit scary, but that's actual responsible fisheries management in practice. That means that, you know, everyone's coming together and saying, hey, we're not seeing the amount of fish that we expected to see or not seeing the size of fish that we expected to find. We need to shut down the fishing season and allow the fishery to repopulate itself.

47:47And I think the amazing thing is there are so, so many examples of there being, you know, decline in catch, fisheries shutting down for between like three to five years. And in the span of that time, fully becoming certified sustainable again, AKA able to fully repopulate and sustain themselves year over year. So I think that's really important for people to understand is like, don't freak out when you see those empty shelves. Like be happy that like people are putting these restrictions into place.

48:22Tracy Alloway:Do you get inbound business inquiries from companies that are probably marginally or somewhat below your standards like canneries in China? etc or there's like look you can save you like your inbox flooded with different b2b suppliers at different parts of the supply chain offering yourself definitely i would say you know my more like my linkedin uh is flooded with that i feel like somehow they're still not getting my email by and large or maybe they're going straight to my spam but yes i don't spend that much time looking at them if i'm if i'm being honest what's happened to your own sardine pricing in this environment?

49:01Because as I understand it, you know, you have this premium product, which already is at a higher price point than some other equivalents. Does it go up further if people are, you know, struggling to find tin cans on the shelves of Trader Joe's or something like that? I do think that we expect our our starting prices to go up. It's like an active conversation. Again, all this is happening so quickly. But I think we can only assume that we will see um and we will see prices go up as as the two fisheries that we're sourcing from um become more and more competitive then the other thing i want to ask again as a non-fish lover will fish consumers do they trade to other types of fish if they can't get sardines yes they do i don't know if i have really good data to share on it but we are definitely seeing folks come in in retail online starting with one species um and then over time expanding to the rest of ours it's a really good question i would say like maybe not anchovies because anchovies generally aren't looked at as like the protein replacement in your meal but between sardines mackerel tuna salmon trowel we're definitely seeing trading between species so obviously like to maintain

50:20Tracy Alloway:a sort of valuable brand. You have to maintain the brand itself. Here is a question I've always wanted to ask someone this. You know, we live in this age of brand collabs, right? It'll be like, oh, like Lululemon is dropping a new limited edition with like Kraft Heinz macaroni and cheese, like, you know, yoga gear, like limited supply. I would buy that to be fair. Yeah. So like, I know you've like done some, you know, with like the olive oil company, et cetera. Are brand collabs really brand collabs like okay we're gonna send three employees of yours and three and we're gonna figure something out or it's like someone comes up with an idea and someone else writes a check and then they like co-brand a post on instagram oh my gosh they're so the former um i've never done anything like what you're describing with the second i'm like to my detriment these collabs are like so so so in depth and we spend so many months on them yeah we're about to have two huge collabs come out one is coming out tomorrow with uh whole foods we're doing a collaborative series of toast which they've never done with any brand before they were no dollars exchanged um we've been working on it for you know six months um and we're about to have i can share another one it comes out after august 11th like these collabs are so not pay to play in any way at all like our fly by jing product collab which is a very popular one?

51:44It's just, you know, we buy their sauce at a wholesale price. We put it in our products and like, that's it. It's just super clean, classic ingredient purchasing.

51:54Tracy Alloway:The other brand related question I have, rather than say DTC to describe the broader thing, it's like de novo brands, right? Coming out of nowhere, et cetera. And so, you know, over the years, I think the ones that grew up in the 2010s like paid an increasing like Instagram tax, right? To maintain that brand. I noticed on your website, you actually have a thing where influencers can email. They're like, oh, and like I will post about Fishwife and then you like arrange some deal with them. There are so many influencers out there and there's so many wannabe influencers. Do you feel that from your perspective, you have good options or are the influencers that you actually want to work with because they're aligned with your aesthetic and brand, do they grow and grow their capacity to like is there a real scarcity of the types of influencers that you would actually want to work with rather than just ones that have a high follower count i don't feel there's scarcity at all i think fishwave has a unique relationship with the influencer landscape because we really don't do any pay-to-play like every once in a while we'll have an influencer make some content and obviously we're going to compensate them for their content and then add a bump on top for their audience if it's like a collaborative post.

53:10But we really have done it less than 10 times in our life. So I think we're lucky to be a brand.

53:19Tracy Alloway:You have this affiliate program thing on your website and it says get paid when you share about Fishway. That's the commission-based program, different than a flat fee. I think basically to pay influencers flat fees to post on their Instagram, there can be truly like astronomical rates i've been quoted you know forty thousand dollars thirty thousand dollars for someone with let's say like eight hundred thousand followers like we simply can't afford that so you know we have this affiliate program influencers are in commission something that we have always invested in seeding making sure that we're getting product in their hands but yeah there is kind of like a huge leap between a commission-based program and like paying a flat fee, which a lot of them are very, very high.

54:08Just going back to the supply chain for a second. So packaging is obviously very important to Fishwife. You've got the branding aspect, but you also have the tins themselves. Everything's coming in a tin. Have you been impacted at all in recent months by tariffs on things like aluminum packaging and stuff like that the tariffs on aluminum packaging we haven't seen like directly impact our business first of all we're not taking ownership of those our canneries buy i see okay the the tins and we we haven't seen like a meaningful increase we've seen it in the course of our five years of being business that tin prices have gone up or aluminum prices have gone up but as of late especially in regards to tariffs that has not been the biggest hit But like we have had tariffs applied to the products that we're importing from Europe.

54:59Those have an impact on the business and are not ideal. Europe has a 15 percent tariff right now that was put in place in April 2025. And it sucks. It's like millions and millions of dollars. We got refunded a million and a half dollars last month, which was great. I showed up in the bank account. But now you'll have new tariffs. We now have new tariffs and now one million and a half is not even, you know, it's a percentage of what we have paid in tariffs. We've always dealt with tariffs. Like there has been a 35 percent import duty on tuna packed and olive oil since we started importing that product and the tariffs don't stack.

55:42So, like, for example, our tuna and olive oil, when the tariff curtain fell, like we didn't increase and we didn't experience incremental tariffs. But no, it sucks. It definitely like it hits gross margin and it's just feels really stupid. So I wish that we didn't have to pay those millions. I got a tariff refund recently, which I didn't really understand because I thought only businesses were receiving. But I got it for like seven dollars and 14 cents. That's fantastic. Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. Thanks.

56:14Tracy Alloway:You create a new category that's very, at least in the US, right? You create this new category of like premium tinned fish and then others. And I think you sort of alluded to this. Then others discover it. You might get other startups. Or I could imagine, but I actually didn't do any research on this particular question. I could imagine that what you might get, and I think you see this, is you have some existing company that is known for their commodity version. And then they'll come up with their equivalent of like the Starbucks Reserve. And they'll make a label that's probably like kind of a knockoff of a, you know, a fishwife label or something similar.

56:48Tracy Alloway:or other company will expand, will do a tin fish line. They'll see the opportunity that you have found. And I'm curious, like you mentioned that there was a fair degree of slack in some of these canneries in, say, 2021, where they're not doing three shifts a day, seven days a week. Do you see your demand aside more scarcity at the cannery level from companies essentially one way or another trying to get a share of your market? I would see where we're seeing scarcity. It's mostly because of the volume from Fish Wife. Oh, interesting. Not to brag, but growing so much so quickly. That's where we're seeing, you know, sort of constraints is that we're taking up so much more canning line than we thought we would be.

57:32And they thought we would be in the span of two years. Yeah, I think it's we are lucky to have established like a couple modes. I think people are willing to pay for Fish Wife because it is a really, really high quality product. and because we have been able to tell the story of why it is a high quality product over the past five and a half years we built the brand online which you know hadn't never happened in the in the can fish category before so it's it's a big leap to pay what you have to pay for a fishwife product and and to earn that pricing power i think is very challenging to be quite honest and takes a ton of brand building work.

58:17Like, yes, the product has to taste truly amazing to get people to buy it and come back and come back and come back. But that brand building work is very difficult to replicate. And then I think as you're seeing here, you have to be extremely agile on your feet in terms of supply chain. Like it is not, no business is easy to run, no global supply chain is easy to run and definitely seafood is not. So, you know, we've seen new entrants come into the category. But honestly, in terms of like categories that clearly have heat, I would say ours has had less meaningful new entrants than many. Sorry, one more sourcing question.

58:55And again, as a non-fish person, I don't really get a lot of these distinctions. But I'm looking at some of your smoked salmon. Smoked salmon with fly by Jing chili crisp. It sounds good. to try that. Sounds good. It says that the salmon comes from, it's farm salmon, not wild caught. How do you make the decision between wild caught and farmed? And what are the distinctions? I never really understood this. I would say it started as a little bit of a happenstance of trying to figure out supply chain. And I really, really struggled to stand up a wild Alaskan salmon supply chain. I just could not get in touch with the canneries I would get in touch with one like one supplier one other supplier and they were sourcing different species of salmon and they didn't want to didn't want them to mix like i could not figure out how to scale it firm salmon makes up between 70 to 80 percent of the salmon that we're eating globally like if you're eating salmon odds are you're eating farm salmon it is a much much more manageable supply chain first of all there's so much of it and it freezes really well it travels really really well and you are not having to deal with seasonal purchasing which as you can imagine you know can necessitate the outlay of of enormous amounts of cash with farms they are producing throughout the year harvesting harvesting throughout the year so it's a much is a much less lumpy cash outlay which makes it just a much easier supply chain to navigate there are fluctuations in pricing for farm salmon for sure, but slightly less volatile than wild.

1:00:35I think we're going to leave it there, but thank you so much for answering all of our fish-related questions, Becca. Really appreciate it. Truly a pleasure to really, really get into it. I appreciate the opportunity.

1:00:59be so there's a lot to pick out from that conversation i mean i hadn't again i don't think about salmon that often but i hadn't realized that yeah if you're if you're doing wild caught salmon and you can only buy at certain times of the year then you are going to lay out like a huge amount of money because everyone's trying to do the same thing at the same time.

1:01:18Tracy Alloway:No, it totally makes sense that it would be as the tech exists to farm salmon, that that would be a lot more appealing and you get all kinds of stability and stuff like that. I really enjoyed that conversation. There's so many like interesting strands there. I think it's interesting that like it's, you know, so you see a headline like the catch in Morocco is down significantly. Lee. And how that like, we might not actually fully have the answers that like, you know, people are trying to piece together, oh, maybe it's something to do with the plankton. Maybe it's something to do with overfishing.

1:01:50Tracy Alloway:Maybe it's something to do with water temperature, et cetera, that we don't really know. Well, I also find the connection there really interesting because like, okay, something might be happening in the waters off Morocco. Maybe they're warming up. Maybe the plankton aren't as fat or as bountiful as they used to be. But suddenly that becomes not just Morocco's problem, but another country's problem in the form of Spain. So it seems like the Moroccan sardine export ban is now becoming a diplomatic issue with the Spanish because now there are attempts to get to for Spain to take Morocco to the negotiating table and actually get them to like call off the export ban.

1:02:28Tracy Alloway:Yeah, it's wild. And the fact that like there is actually quite a big market for trading ups. I mean, I guess like if you need sardine, you need sardine and another fish isn't going to work. And so the idea that like, OK, now there is suddenly, you know, even if it's like a very different supply chain at first, that the impairment of the sort of commodity supply chain will invariably affect the premium supply chain. I honestly think the trading up phenomenon when it comes to food inflation is a real thing. so you know people are thinking well if i'm gonna have to pay twenty dollars for a pack of ground beef i might as well spend thirty dollars and get some steaks or something like that in fact i had that conversation with a woman in a supermarket the other day also can i just say i know i just spent the whole episode talking about how i don't like fish yes but i was at a dinner party last weekend and a former teak wood supplier who we should get on the podcast he's now an organic farmer he made candied salmon oh yeah and it was so good i've never had it before and it was actually delicious and i ate the whole thing no that is uh that's really tasty yeah that's a good entree into like maybe more uh exploration on your part well no i mean there's all kinds of fish that theoretically you might like i like a lot of stuff i like sea urchin i love raw sea urchin i love oysters i love a lot of that stuff but i don't know just like cooked no i get it anyway should Leave it there.

1:03:51Tracy Alloway:Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow Becca Milstein on Instagram at BB Milstein. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armand. Dashiell Bennett at Dashbot. Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks. And Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And for more All Thoughts content, you should check out our daily newsletter. You can find that at Bloomberg.com forward slash All Thoughts. And you can chat about all of these topics 24-7 in our Discord, discord.gg.

1:04:23And if you enjoy Odd Lots, if you want to see us do more food episodes or even more seafood episodes, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad-free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

1:04:50Thank you.

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