How Lenovo's CFO Is Allocating Capital During One of History's Biggest Booms

24:00and of course the chip suppliers like NVIDIA, Intel, AMD, and Qualcomm. And of course now ARM-based chips as well. And also the Chinese tech stack that's also coming up. I think from that perspective, we are there to really enable. And I think prior to this stock run, we're really not recognized by the market in terms of our ability to be partners to 2 ,000 suppliers in the tech ecosystem, driving almost$2 trillion plus of spend. and we're right in the middle of it and distributing this across the board evenly in 180 markets. So I think from that perspective, we really needed to be recognized.

24:38But at the same time, we're very humble. And I think our chairman really used that word in terms of staying humble. And I think we are because we're also micro. And from that perspective, most of the profits have been towards the IC companies, the OS companies. If you look at the PC revolution and the tech stack, the OS company is now trillion dollars. The chip companies are now crossing trillion dollars, but have before been hundreds of billions of dollars. And we only most recently became around, I think, 30 to 40 billion dollars. But before that, sub 20 billion. So I think that's the value chain that you're in.

25:12But I think we probably did not optimize it as well. And I think there's an opportune time for the device makers today to optimize. And of course, distribution is very critical. Supply chain is critical. ability to aggregate supply chain to manufacturer at scale, at cost efficiently, and deliver to your customers to be able to service it, to provide the security and trust and the aftermarket service support, that must have a value beyond what we're being recognized by the market.

25:43Tracy Alloway:I mean, I absolutely believe in that. And I think we need to drive that in terms of financial returns from that perspective. And AI wave definitely creates an opportunity for the likes of Lenovo. And I think we're the best position in this because there's no company like us from the end to end portfolio and the global manufacturing. So, you know, I think that's a very important point. And in terms of how the U.S. and Chinese tech stack today are differentiated or AI companies are differentiated today, obviously, because of the restrictions, I know that probably the most efficient compute today is probably from the U.S.

26:19chip company. So obviously the chip availability is something that the Chinese AI companies probably have to work with. But in that way, they probably managed to produce at much lower cost and very efficiently as well. So you see today a lot of chatter about the cost per token generation from the lack of a DeepSeek being. And I don't have official numbers. So this is just quoting what I've heard, like 150th of those in the US. So I think from that perspective, right, as I said, human beings or companies, and if you really think about the Darwinism in economic theories, the free markets create the toughest competitors and the most healthy competitors.

26:59So I think in China, for those that compete in such a, there's a word called involution in China. Oh, yeah, of course. Involution.

27:06Tracy Alloway:We know well. It only happens in China market. So if they can survive within their cutthroat market under the constraints of the chip supply, they are pretty strong. They are pretty strong. So I think that would be one difference I would say. I want to talk about competition. You mentioned the deep and broad relationship you have with all these suppliers across the supply chain. And when I think about competition within the server space specifically, I feel like there are two dimensions through which you could win. And one of them is, of course, like, OK, you have total supply chain mastery. You can keep inventories low because you have just in time delivery of everything.

27:51Tracy Alloway:And you just have this beautifully efficient supply chain with the world's best parts makers all around the world. And then there's another way you could win, which is your server is just more performant than a competitor's server, et cetera. And we know other competitors like like Adele or Supermicro, et cetera. Those both strike me as dimensions upon which a company could win the server market. Which to you is more important? Is it the sort of supply chain excellence or is it the quality of the server itself? I think it's not an either or question. It's fully integrated tech stack. Today, the value to a customer and a partner, and I think there are less customers today than they are really a partner because their architecture is not driven and the spend is a multi-year spend.

28:43So they're coming to you with a multi-year plan, not just a single purchase. So we take that attitude and we need to have that attitude with our suppliers as well. We have invested well over 10 years in these factories. We have 30 factories in the world, 12 in each region of the world. We can produce in Europe, in Hungary for the European market or the US market. We can produce in Mexico, in the US for the US market. We can produce in Asia for the Asian market. Now we're building that factory in the middle, in Riyadh, to produce servers also for the Middle East market. And of course, China market, we always have factories there as well for the China market and other markets.

29:21So I think from that perspective, we are really truly global from that perspective. Today, the bottlenecks are not only in getting supply. After you supply, can you then put it together? Do you have the production capability to be able to produce? then do you have the capability to test what is being produced? So we at Lenovo provide that end-to-end capability to our customer, and that ensures them to have the safety and one-stop shop. In fact, our SSG can actually also, so the Solutions and Services Group at Lenovo, can also build data centers. So different from our OEM-like competitors, they can actually build data centers.

30:03So today, the customers can hyperscalers and actually come to Lenovo with a plan to say, I have a plan to have this site. So people who are not even hyperscalers, people who are land owners and they have power in specific areas, they come to Lenovo and they said, help me build a data center. Because we also have a modular solution that can build this data center within nine months. in a depending on what you already have available in terms of infrastructure, we can do it as fast as six months. So that is very, very fast. And that gets the time to market and enable revenues immediately for our partners.

30:42And then in terms of that total infrastructure, plus if they have GPU compute in the local market, then of course, Lenovo can also provide that, particularly with our 11 ,000 rack liquid cooling capability to be able to service a GPU compute today. Right. And we're expanding on that capability. So today, we're the most end-to-end and relevant partner really from that domain. So it's really not from a perspective of really having the supply and having the technology. Technology is always important. But that end-to-end look, if you think about how people are affecting and enabling AI compute today, they need everything.

31:21And of course, as Tracy said earlier, I think capital is also an important part of that. And, you know, it does help that that market is starting to recognize Renovil in terms of our value.

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33:18Tracy Alloway:Tracy, I'm thinking about the difference between, you know, the server market today and say like the PC market of the 90s. And I think part of the reason we talk about and remember the red button on the laptop is simply because the companies were unable to differentiate themselves at all product wise. And it was like truly the PC market kind of killed itself because it was just so unbelievably commodified. commodified. No one really knew the difference or cared between the difference between a dull box and a compact box and a Hewlett Packard box and whatever. But it does sound listening to a Winston that like you really can, it's the partner, not the customer, you can really differentiate your offering.

34:00Yeah. I remember that environment. So I remember like you had to go to Best Buy, right? And you had to basically get a salesman to tell you what the difference was between all these different things. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Since we're on the topic of supply chains, and you mentioned data centers as well, give us some color on what it's like to try to get, I guess, when I think about constraints on the AI build out, I think about memory, GPUs, CPUs, chips, and transformers now for data centers, at least in the US. How difficult is that at the moment, getting those key things? Yeah, the market is very robust because the demand is very robust.

34:44And as we're sitting in Hong Kong today, but in the Bloomberg offices, but really, there are some really exciting IPOs coming, right? And also capital raises. We're seeing capital raises at such significant levels. And that's really all going back to AI infrastructure spend. So really, from the perspective of that component shortage or demand driven challenge on the supply chain will continue probably for at least two to three years. But we know that the supply chain is starting to invest. But in terms of some of the memory specific areas, it does take almost two to three years for a new fab to come online.

35:25So I think from that perspective, and I think you're seeing bottlenecks across the board, right? And as I said earlier, land, power, not just the transformers, but actual power from the grid. And that's why we're in the Middle East to work with the Saudi government on sustainable, but also cheap solar and much available energy in the local market. So it's very efficient there. And they have very low cost energy there that could actually support AI infrastructure from that perspective. So we really need to optimize where specifically the power is around the world, rather than just saying, hey, everything has to be generated within an area.

36:01And that area doesn't even have power. So I think we really need to be able to do that, pull the global resources together.

36:07Tracy Alloway:One of the things that we all learned during the pandemic is that, you know, and we all learned about how supply chain disruptions work and the bullwhip effect, or at least, you know, us lay people learned about these concepts for the first time. Everyone we talked to, we recently did an episode with one of the co-founders of CoreWeave, one of the NeoClouds. You know, everyone we talked to will talk about multi-year-long order books and backlogs, et cetera. And when I hear that and I started thinking back, I was like, yes, I believe you when you say that. But it could also be a bunch of players double ordering and triple ordering and trying to get ahead of themselves just because they're all aware of the shortages, et cetera.

36:51Tracy Alloway:In which case, it does seem like what looks right now like a major backlog and constraints and endless demand could not be as sustainable as people thought. Should we perhaps be worried that some of these endless order books are just, in fact, companies overordering because they see everyone else overordering? I think these are very sophisticated companies in terms of the final offtakers. And so, but I think I would point out to the fact that the duplication could happen in the pipeline. Yeah. But not necessarily in a backlog. Because I think if people have standard definitions of the backlog.

37:29Okay. By that time, it's actually already a signed deal. Okay, so then there's money. So, I think they wouldn't double sign with people. Yeah. Yeah. And then, of course, revenue recognition is a totally different thing. I think you have already shipped the actual product and you expect to collect on your accounts receivables. Okay. So I think from that perspective, really looking at the pipeline that is massive in the market, there is likely duplication there. And people are waiting to see who has the supply and who can deliver to you. But overall, I think the commitment that we see in the market, particularly for data center space, for equipment, for other things, is really a multi-year commitment.

38:07And I think people see this as a critical infrastructure. They learn from the internet era in terms of the cloud service providers, how much data can be generated. And this is just going to be so much more. I think it's going to be exponentially more than what it is because it will take the existing data plus generate more data. And then you need to enable that data. And that enablement, I think, needs additional compute. Lenovo has software as well, right? And you have the gaming business. Is that right? We have a we're the leading online games. Oh, sorry, the game PC company in the world. Yeah.

38:40So what do you think about the SaaSpocalypse idea? So the idea that with AI, we're going to be able to replicate whatever application we want, whether it's Microsoft Word or Excel or something like that. Would that eat into your margins or because you own the IP, can you just do it more cheaply? No, I think we are not a SaaS company by any means. But I think from the perspective of Lenovo or enterprises, I think really as it relates to what we touched upon earlier, your IT department, and I think it actually works for a company like Lenovo because we are not a software centric company. These tools now lower the bar for us.

39:20So I think our engineers or hiring engineers should be able to create certain apps that should be available or applications. So I think from that perspective, there are certain elements of applications that would be able to produce in-house and that would lower the bar because these tools are very powerful. But in terms of the SaaS copopculus, I think it's hard for me to say, but I think from that perspective, I believe there is certain data layers that are absolutely essential because enterprises almost cannot get away from this. and not know that they really want to. I think you just need the middle layer to be able to bring the data together and to be able to connect to AI.

40:02And that's one of the biggest bottlenecks for enterprises today. And whoever can do that, right, would be able to be our helper. But I think it's rather than just purely a software solution, there's probably a consultant element to that as well to help enterprise enable this function. But I think we're a long journey from that.

40:19Tracy Alloway:You know, I feel sorry for gamers Because even prior to AI gobbling up some of the GPUs, right before that, it was crypto. And I remember they used to complain that the Ethereum miners were buying up all of their NVIDIA GPUs, et cetera. But I'm curious, this is another one of the big meta themes of the time. Like in your own gaming business or in the gaming industry in general, obviously, GPUs seems like the highest marginal value you can get from them is with artificial intelligence. Do you see this continuing phenomenon where raw inputs of any sort that might have a one time go to gamers, either because just the gamers get priced out or they don't build them for gamers because you can make so much more money selling them into the ecosystem?

41:10Tracy Alloway:system? Well, we got a fantastic franchise in terms of, as you alluded to, the ThinkPad business. Yeah. It's an iconic franchise and we love it. Our customers love it. I've actually visited the R &D facility that originated actually from Japan. It's from the Yamamoto Labs of IBM. So we kept that intact also with a lot of the people from it. But I think the original So Inventor actually retired some years ago, but there's a long history that we're very proud of, and we've actually maintained that. In terms of our consumer and also as it relates specifically to the online game business, which is our Legion business, it's actually also very famous, right?

41:52It's the largest by volume, and people really like Lenovo for the price performance that we can deliver to them, and gamers really appreciate that. So these are amazing franchises that we want to be able to keep. And they are a loyal fan base. And we have the largest market share in the world. So we want to be able to protect that. We actually, rather than protect that, we want to grow that market share. So I think from that perspective, we will have to balance between the device side of our business, as well as the infrastructure side of the business, which at least they have a lot of demand today.

42:23I think it just means that we have to get more share of our supply. Talk to us about your decision to, I guess, not tie yourself to any one AI platform, because I'm sure there are some very, very big tech companies out there who would love to have exclusivity with Lenovo. And there are also broader arguments out there that eventually we're going to have one AI platform that emerges triumphant in the same way that, you know, we saw Google take over search in the early 2000s. Why did you decide to, I guess, work with a bunch of different people here? I think today what we see is that we're still in that journey of improvement.

43:04And you see improvements every few months from the likes of OpenAI or Anthropic or Gemini or whoever it might be. And so I think from that perspective, you see a lot of innovation also from the China market. So from that perspective, you really want to be able to be flexible. and we think today we're not there to bet on who is going to win. We are there to provide the AI compute. So from now, the orchestration there makes a lot of sense for us to allow our customers to be able to go through the Lenovo AI and reach what works best for them rather than them have to figure out and download multiple apps to be able to do that, right?

43:43So I think from that perspective, the orchestrator would do that for them and I think that makes it much more efficient both from a memory perspective and compute capability perspective that is on your device. So with that architecture should actually potentially optimize the performance on the device.

44:01Tracy Alloway:Should we believe these companies, let's say in Microsoft, so Microsoft recently announced their flagship model. I forget if it's pronounced like Maya or Maya or whatever, or MAI, I haven't played with it. And they're like, and it also runs best on our own custom silicon. How should we read that? Is there, in your view, a lot of juice to be squeezed from model silicon alignment? Or should we read this as at least companies would like to begin having a little bit of a wedge so that they're not so dependent on NVIDIA for their hardware needs? I think there's a lot of great things that NVIDIA is doing today.

44:44And I think a lot of people are recognizing. So their revenues are clearly growing significantly. I think they're probably at the core of driving this current and enabling this current AI wave. So I think that continues. But of course, as costs become to a level where people have to find alternatives, you're also seeing people from a cost perspective making selections, but also probably from, as you say, the flexibility of having their own architecture. But I think that's really happening with respect to the hyperscalers who have the scale and also the technological capability and the capital to be able to develop their own.

45:20Tracy Alloway:But is it about their models really will run better on these chips that they're designing? Or is it about long term strategic at least, you know, I wouldn't want to say divorce from NVIDIA, but maybe, you know, wishing they had a prenup or something like that. Just like having a little bit of like not so dependent on one company's specific chip capacity and roadmap. I can't speak for them, but just really from an external point of view. But I believe it's probably a little bit of both, right? Because if you were a corporate really deciding on your strategy, I think that's probably one where, especially given that a lot of them are also tech stack focused companies as well.

46:05So they probably want to have more control over their own tech stack. But the other one really is around the cost and also maybe future planning around what they're enabling. So probably give them more flexibility to be able to do more if they have their own chips in other areas as well. So speaking of diversification, if we were recording this episode a year or so ago, we would probably still be talking about AI. But I think we'd be talking about trade and tariffs as well. Right. Remember that, Joe?

46:36Tracy Alloway:I forgot about that story. That's right. So Lenovo obviously has a very large and complex supply chain all across the world. But how does, I guess, the general return of more trade restrictions actually impact your business? Yeah, it actually happened very interestingly on April 2nd. So I took over on the reins. Our fiscal year is April 1st. I took over on the reins on April 1st. So the second day, it was the most major event in the history of 100. I think it was 200 plus countries that were enacted on this. And we're probably in 180 of those. So I think it's a major event given the significance of our business.

47:18But it's really about enabling and providing our products at a very reasonable price to our end customers. So I think the end customer suffers if there is inefficiencies added. So I think that's the most important aspect, which is, and I think eventually, right, I think PC products were actually exempt. So I think there was a conclusion that this is something that was needed, right, for productivity, for entertainment, for a lot of things that people use devices for today. And we're one of the largest providers across the board, whether it's in your pocket every day or on your desktop or at home.

47:53So I think from that perspective, this is probably a very essential thing for consumers today. And I think that's the most important in terms of giving them that product at the lowest cost. You see that behavior really in a lot of probably third world countries or second world countries in terms of really emphasizing that. Because it's really about not leaving their citizens behind. It's really about making sure that they have access to digital information and the device is the start of that journey. Right. So that's a very critical aspect of it. So lowering the tariff barrier is actually essential to ensure that their citizens and any citizens should have the lowest cost access to technology.

48:33Tracy Alloway:You mentioned something earlier and you're like, OK, on a per token basis, DeepSeq is significantly cheaper than, say, the most advanced models from, say, OpenAI and Anthropic. But strictly speaking, there is a wide agreement that still the flagship models from the American labs are the best models in the entire world. And I just don't think there's much dispute about that in either the U.S. or Chinese communities, at least a few months behind. And perhaps even inside Lenovo, but do you see in general, and this sort of gets back to the early part of the question about CFO decisions, people not being sophisticated about recognizing that queries don't always have to go to the most expensive, most advanced models.

49:19Tracy Alloway:And how much learning is there still yet to do about how to optimize routing of the query such that it goes to the most cost effective model rather than just slamming the frontier model? Yeah, I'm going to answer your question in how I started my morning today, because I'm in the journey of figuring this out. And I've decided to spend some money with external consultants. And so we're in that interview process. And as I said, we spent an hour and a half with the global team. And this is one of the major firms. I'm starting to get a sense from talking to various parties that everyone is new to this game.

50:02So everyone, even the advisors who are trying to earn a service fee from you, is really also learning as part of this journey. And that's what consultants do as well, right?

50:11Tracy Alloway:Do you ever ask what you're paying them for? You're like, okay, we're all learning this together. But I would not make comments about another industry. I'm sure you love them. Absolutely, absolutely. But, you know, I think from that perspective, that goes to say that if they are the specialists or those that see a lot in the market, then what about specific departments or individuals in the company? So I think from that perspective, everyone is in that journey and it's the people who can be most clear headed to learn the fastest. I think it's probably the most essential, right? So I think from that perspective, we need to be able to take out the red tape, enable the processes to work, accelerate.

50:51I think timing and speed is essential in the new AI world. And then we need to deploy that where it's sensible. And then, as you say, where do you actually allow that spending and the interaction to generate tokens to really happen? And so we're in that journey. But I think we're not alone. I think every company is the same. I'm actually going to a conference next week posted by a major consulting firm that is gathering a lot of CFOs. But in my regular dialogue with CFOs, I understand. I worry a lot, but I think we're also not alone. Joe, do you think in the future when people like meet each other, they're going to say their names and their nationality and then like declare?

51:30Yeah. Well, I was going to say declare the foundational model that like they use.

51:35Tracy Alloway:Oh, I was going to say, like, I wonder if like at bars or like women when they gossip with each other, they're like, I want a man who is like this much token spending. You know, it'll be part of their identities for sure. That's right. Well, OK, so speaking of rich men, I have to ask at least one CFO-ish question, which is when it comes to capital spend, I'm sure you could justify pretty much anything right now. And there's so much money that's actually going out on the AI build out. How are you thinking about returning capital to shareholders? Because the stock's gone up a lot, but, you know, people can always be wealthier.

52:16I'm sure they're into that. Yeah, we paid the in the last fiscal year, which just ended March 31st, we paid the highest dividend ever in the Lenovo history. So our shareholders are very happy. We share our success with our shareholders. But we also see a lot of opportunities for growth. And as you have mentioned many times on this discussion, is that there's also a lot of capital needs to fuel that growth. So we really need to strike that balance between giving our shareholders the immediate cash that they would like, but also at the same time, they want us to be able to enable the capital appreciation on the stock because the underlying fundamental of the business is growing.

52:55So we need to drive that growth. And there's definitely going to be a period where you drive that growth. At the same time, we're driving that margin expansion. But there will be quarters here and there that could potentially mismatch in terms of that growth versus the margins. But overall, the long-term trend for Lenovo is a plan to drive growth with accelerated margin expansion.

53:19Tracy Alloway:Northern Virginia in the U.S. is sort of understood to be the data center capital of America. But, you know, it's expanding. There's a lot that's sort of like off grid in Texas that's happening. And then there's also, of course, anti-data center politics in the U.S., and we don't know how that will affect the map. What is the Northern Virginia of East Asia right now? Where do you see, like, which country is it because they have the most, whether it's regulations or access to energy, Where is everyone trying to put up data centers? And I'm just curious, like anywhere in Asia, is there any sort of equivalent anti-data center politics that's emerging?

53:57Well, I think Asia tends to be a little bit more flexible from that perspective. But clearly, the best infrastructure of scale is in China. But I think from that perspective, a lot of people, due to certain regulations and policies, cannot have data centers. So you have a lot of idle resources today, whether it's power and data center, therefore accessibility and also supply chain. That's not that the world is spending additional money on in higher cost jurisdictions because of regulations that you cannot put it in China. So the world ends up having some of the inflationary effects is because you're not actually using the most efficient place in the world that you can actually do things.

54:37But having said that, I think other countries are actually catching up very fast as well. So we're seeing, even if it's a supply chain area, slightly lower cost. But in terms of the data center aspect and where the power, Southeast Asia has been very good. And I think what we're seeing in this part of the world, clearly in places like Malaysia and Indonesia, I think those are natural places where people have really been looking into. I mean, even Hong Kong these days, I think there's plans from the government, you would think. and also Singapore. So some of these smaller land mass areas, but I think also have plans.

55:12And I think right here in town, there's also a dedicated few players as well. And they have to be creative in terms of putting data centers in these higher elevated structures. But there's all sort of creativity. And I think Hong Kong has a mixed use in terms of that power generation. But again, that's a small area, but I think it's just giving a data set of examples. People are also doing it in Japan. Japan is also another one from a regulatory perspective. But cost-wise and also policy-wise in terms of getting necessary permits may not be the fastest. Tracy spent a long time there, so may have some knowledge about this.

55:49But I think it really depends on where you can have trust and partnership with the local government because it involves land, it involves power, it involves imports of specific goods. And I think that part really depends on a lot of the local efficiencies. Joe, we got to go visit a data center in Hong Kong.

56:11Tracy Alloway:I was going to say Hong Kong actually to me makes a lot of sense as a data center location, because if there's one thing I know about Hong Kong, it's there's plenty of cheap real estate here and there's more than enough space. And we know that people are very happy with the price of how affordable the residence is here, etc so it makes sense that you know there is actually a lot of land you just can't build on it you just can't build on it right yeah so all right Winston Chang thank you so much for coming on all thoughts really appreciate it thank you Tracy thank you Joe

56:56Joe, that was a lot of fun. Yeah. I feel like we haven't actually spoken about AI from the perspective of a company like Lenovo. No, we haven't. Like we've never done that before. Yeah.

57:07Tracy Alloway:No, we haven't. And that was really nice. And look, I would say two things about AI, which is we're doing a lot of AI episodes. And I would say there's two reasons for that. One is because, I mean, it's just the biggest thing of our lives, probably, in terms of the significance and everyone's trying to wrap their heads around it. So there's a lot to learn. But it also is in our wheelhouse because it's so physical and because it interacts with supply chains. And so you think like, OK, a company like Lenovo, a server company that also happens to offer the ability to build complete data centers, not just the servers, who therefore is then interacting with all types of players is almost like the perfect sweet spot for like an odd lots guest, even among all of our perfect guests.

57:53Tracy Alloway:Someone who has that visibility on both sides is really someone interesting to talk to. Yeah, I think I've said before, there's such a weird tension between these sort of bodiless, faceless AI interface. And then when you think about all the actual physical infrastructure that supports it. Totally. It's why I think it's so interesting. The other thing, too, that I think is interesting about hearing from a Lenovo, and again, hearing from a CFO of Lenovo, is like, look, they're not a hyperscaler. I'm sure they're investing a ton of money and building out their capabilities, etc. But they're not one of these companies that announces big things like, we're going to be spending$500 billion next year on building out data centers.

58:36Tracy Alloway:So they really do have that dimension where they have to figure out the Googles and et cetera and the open AIs. They're talking about CapEx. And the Lenovo's of the world also have to think a lot more about OpEx. And the OpEx component of the conversation, as he said, whether it's with fellow CFOs or the consultant community, it doesn't sound like it feels like it's in day one of figuring it out. Yeah, everything's up for grabs. I also thought the the involution point was was interesting when we were talking about the key differences between China and U.S. And the idea that because competition is so cutthroat in China that it just drives your costs down and down and down.

59:21So that, like, even if you're not that competitive in China, you would still be competitive compared to. Yeah, exactly.

59:27Tracy Alloway:It's kind of funny to think about. Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. All right. Shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Allaway. You can follow me at Tracy Allaway. And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armin, Dashiell Bennett at Dashbot, Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks, and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And for more Odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash Odd Lots, where we have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about all these topics 24-7 in our Discord, discord.gg slash oddlots.

1:00:03And if you enjoy oddlots, if you like it when you hear from the perspective of Chinese tech companies, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

1:00:34Thank you.

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