MeatEater's Steven Rinella on the Economic History of Hunting

28:28So if we fast forward up to the Lewis and Clark expedition, here we do the Louisiana Purchase. Thomas Jefferson dispatches the Lewis and Clark expedition to go find a mostly water route to the Pacific and also to look at natural resource abundance, right? Lewis and Clark come back and they report mind-boggling numbers of beavers in the inner mountain West, all right? Right away, right on their heels goes a bunch of American trappers out to explore this land and trade beavers. A beaver pelt was, you know, going for maybe three bucks. That's more than you'd make in a day as a laborer. It was real money.

29:09But guys got onto it and they formalized it and people would go out and get investors. OK, a group would go out and get investors. Well, for instance, Aster, if you go to Aster Place in New York, Aster was America's first homemade millionaire. Aster's first business was the beaver trade. So guys would get investors. They would run advertisements to hire trappers. If you look at these really famous mountain men, like, for instance, Jim Bridger. These guys answered an ad in a newspaper. They ran an ad that was says, looking for 100 enterprising young men. And these young guys, some of them escaped indentured servants, people running away from apprenticeships, would go higher on as a fur brigade.

29:51And they would hire on as a day rate. And they would be backed by financial backers. and they would send these young men out to the Intermountain West to trap beaver as a day laborer. In time, some of these guys would spin off and do their own thing and go independent. But it was a very formalized structure that was sending these young men out to catch beaver in order to bring them back and they would be exported and turned into wool felt. If you look back to like Abe Lincoln's hat, okay, Abe Lincoln didn't wear a beaver wool felt hat. He wore a silk hat, which we'll get to. But that style of hat was the rage in Europe.

30:30All sophisticated men, many poor people who aspired to look more affluent, would wear one of these top hats. They were made from beaver wool felt. So that was a huge export industry coming out of it. And again, it became formalized. And what killed it is they were too effective. Two things killed the trade. One, they were running out of beaver anyway. And then a fashion change crashed the industry. And it was probably a good thing that it did because they may have pretty much exterminated the animals from the landscape. I probably got a little ahead of you there, but that's the story. No, that's great.

31:07That's great. And actually, the thing about the fashion change reminds me of one of my all-time favorite bubbles, market bubbles, which was the ostrich feather bubble in the 1800s, where women would want ostrich feathers for their hats, and they became really, really expensive. And then the bubble burst and all these ostrich farmers, mostly in Africa, I think, went bust. Yeah, that was, yeah, they called it the plenary trade and all kinds of shorebirds. And it's hard to picture now, but you could just, without regulation, in coastal areas of the country, go hunt herons, egrets to sell the feathers to adorn hats.

31:45Hmm. You know, it's funny when you think about like conservation efforts or you think about endangered species, all these ideas feel very modern to me. Like, you know, maybe they started thinking about this stuff in the 1970s or whatever. But obviously that's not the case. How early on in the process of the hunting or hunting history did people start becoming aware of the fact that without some sort of regulation or laws or curbs that this natural resources could be irreversibly depleted? Surprisingly early. And I'll get to some of the earliest examples. But I want to clarify what I think motivations might have been.

32:23Some of the earliest examples we see of a conservation effort would even be in the colonial period. And I was trying to put some parameters around deer hunting. Because, again, these were valuable animals for people to use for material. So when we see people trying to get to put in hunting seasons, like not to kill them when they're fawning, when they're dropping their fawns, or put in restrictions about outsiders coming in to hunt, They probably weren't motivated by some sort of environmental ethic. They were motivated by guarding and protecting a resource. When you start to see an emergence of a real, more emotional, spiritual, environmental movement is in the late 1800s.

33:07And its birth is this. Its birth is gentleman hunters, such as Theodore Roosevelt. You have these gentleman hunters that want to connect to this piece of American history or American culture. But they're recognizing that unregulated hunting, this unregulated market hunting that we've been discussing, is going to make hunting impossible. Because these unregulated commodity hunters are going to drive everything to extinction. So in order to save wildlife and save hunting, which they recognize as a very important piece of American culture, they needed to sort of bifurcate American hunting efforts into sport hunting, which was regulated and had an environmental ethic or a conservation ethic, and unregulated market hunting, which is what we've been discussing.

33:56One of the great ironies is this. One of the earliest conservation organizations that Theodore Roosevelt was involved in, involved in founding, involved in running, is called the Boone and Crockett Club. And they're still a major player in American conservation today. What's ironic is the names Boone and Crockett, which Americans today hear and they think of hunting. But these were just the kind of individuals that the Boone and Crockett Club needed to stop in order to save American hunting, was these market hunters who were out there doing nothing to compensate the American people for the wildlife they were taking.

34:33and they would kill it all. And once they killed it all, they'd move a little bit west and kill all of that. And they about undid American wildlife. Yeah. So there's a tragedy of the commons dynamic going on here where you have this public resource, which is animals. And if too many people tap into it, the public resource ceases to exist. Can you talk a little bit about the buffalo trade? Because I think this is probably the biggest example of that dynamic actually happening. Yeah, it's the biggest, most regrettable example. And when I say it's regrettable, it's because by this point, we knew, we meaning news reading, engaged, educated Americans knew where this was headed.

35:17Okay. And I'll back up a little bit. So if we get to the time of European contact in the new world, there were maybe the fashionable number today is somewhere around 30 to 40 million American bison or buffalo. Those words are the same thing. 40 million to 30 million buffalo on the American landscape. By the end of the Civil War, they've been removed from the eastern part of the country. So, you know, at a time there would have been buffalo in New Orleans. There would have been buffalo in present day Washington, D.C. There would have been buffalo in present day Nashville. All those had been wiped out by hunters.

35:53At the end of the Civil War, there's probably about 15 million of them on the Great Plains, which has always been the nexus of the population. That's where the bulk of the animals were. The country really turned westward after the Civil War. Once the South, you know, the Union was saved, we sent our army out to pacify hostile tribes in the West and to protect economic interests in the West. And with that shift westward, we started looking for leather resources out west, and they identified this 15 million buffalo. There was nothing special about buffalo leather. We had an insatiable appetite for leather.

36:34What became is we needed it to produce industrial belting, okay? Leather prices shot up. We were producing industrial belting to drive the industrial revolution, and the animals were just yet another source of leather, but they could be gotten for no investment. Okay. A buffalo hide, let's say it's worth$3.50,$4, where the foreman at a tannery would make $3.50 a day. But a buffalo hide hunter could kill 20 or 30 buffalo a day and sell the hides at$3.50 a piece. And he didn't have to put any money into it. You're not raising them. You're not feeding them. It's totally different than cattle. They're just out there.

37:15Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is it true that like the buffalo just stood there while the hunters shot at them? Like they didn't really understand? Okay. It's not true. They were just so good at what they did. They knew how to make that happen. Okay. This is a complicated thing you get into where you want to look at what they did and you want to look at the atrocity of what they did and what it causes people to miss is this is going to sound weird. It causes people to miss the professionalism and skillset that goes into this. Like a big part of my career is reconciling the skill set, the dedication, the bravery against the atrocity.

37:53Right. But no, they wouldn't just stand there. These guys were masters. They were experts at what they did. And they knew how to get that outcome. You would not go out and get that same outcome. You would go out and not get any. I don't mean to hack on you. No, I have no doubt I would be unable to shoot a buffalo. That's fine. Not even I don't even mean you wouldn't be able to get one because of emotional or constraints. It's just like they were so good. They were trained their whole life to do this. They were too good. And this is one of the most astounding things. When they start really getting after them around 1872, the market really opens up.

38:29In American tanneries, the appetite for these buffalo hides really opens up to where they're like, we'll take as many as we can get. That hits in 1872. And it coincides, not coincides, it's subject to the fact that the railroad hits Dodge City, Kansas. Okay. So now you can load these things on a train and send them to tanneries. By 1883, 11 years later, that 15 million animals is gone. It's, it compressed everything. It took forever to almost wipe out beaver. It took for hundreds of years to almost wipe out whitetail deer. With the buffalo, they were so good at it. And the country was so primed industrially.

39:13We were so primed with railroads, with big tanneries, the tannery buildings that were, you know, a thousand yards long that we could just bam, burn through a resource with astonishing quickness. And the crazy part about it is once they shot them out, it didn't even affect leather prices. Like a buffalo hide at the peak would be worth five So you would think once they killed them all, the market should spike. Right. Like there's scarcity. The last ones were selling at the same price as the first ones, because in the end, it didn't matter. They could buy cattle in South America. They could get leather from anywhere.

39:50So we killed them all. And it wasn't like we needed them. It was a drop in the bucket for leather production. So there was no market mechanism because it was just so much abundant leather from multiple sources. there was no market mechanism curbing the hunters no it was just it's interesting they were worth what they were worth they were worth what a cowhide was worth it was just that they could get them for free and when they got them it didn't affect anything the industrial revolution and leather belting was still produced and still produced and still produced so it almost makes it seem more shameful in the end it'll be like we would have a cut like the country would have accomplished what we accomplished with the industrial revolution had we never even exploited that crazy and also Well, also, I never really thought about, I never thought about any of this.

40:34I certainly never thought about the connection between the Industrial Revolution. I just imagine these ancient factories with a bunch of wheels and these belts that are pulling the wheels and how that is connected to, I guess, something had to be turning the wheels. I just never really thought about, I never really thought about what it was. Yeah, there's a great photo. It was later, you know, it was later, but it was a great photo. And it's in a Ford manufacturing plant. And it's these lathing machines. And the photo explains that overhead of the workers are 50 miles of leather belting. And these are 16-inch belts.

41:10Wow.

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44:07FHFUR.com. What happened such that ultimately we still have bison? Because the population eventually, right, they didn't quite kill them all. And now we've rebuilt the bison stock in the country. What happened such that we didn't quite go all the way and completely make this animal extinct? I'm a little bit hesitant to say this because when it comes to the conservation history of America, it's a little bit of an anomaly. But what happened to save him is private ownership. We shot them all down to the point where there was just a couple scattered animals here and there. Even at one time, a guy named William T.

44:45Hornaday, who was a taxidermist and mammal expert. He wrote letters around the country trying to see who had a few. And there was a handful of eccentrics around the country that had managed to go out and rope some and save them, maybe even feed them off domestic cows when they were calves. And these kind of slowly got brought into little herds. Interestingly, some got brought to the Bronx Zoo. when they started trying to repopulate little protected populations in the West. Another great irony is they were moving animals from the Bronx Zoo out to Oklahoma to turn them loose. Like that's how bad it got.

45:25And even today, like we really haven't recovered. We've saved them from genetic extinction. So there's about a half million in existence. 94 % of them are privately owned. What we haven't saved them from is ecological extinction. of all American wildlife, of all Native American wildlife, grizzly bears, black bears, elk, bighorn sheep, on and on and on. The buffalo, the bison, is the only animal that does not have the rights of a wild animal. If a buffalo walks off of National Park and comes into Montana, he becomes livestock. He becomes under the authority of the Department of Livestock. We do not accept them as wild animals anymore, which in my view is a great sin.

46:07We could go for like three or four hours on this conversation. Easy, but we can't. So I'm going to take us up to, I guess, modern times. So when we were talking earlier about the long hunters, we discussed there's clearly this element of democracy and independence embedded in that particular system. And if you look at the way the modern hunting world, I guess, or system is structured, it feels like we're trying to we're trying to solve that tension between people's rights to hunt animals and the conservation public resource aspect. Is that right? Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. We live under now, when I say we in this case, I mean, American hunters, American fishermen.

46:56We live under a very complex regulatory structure, which is self-made. Our community, modern American sportsmen, have built the system that we live under, a very, very tightly regulated pursuit. We've come up with this system. Earlier, we talked about how things were in Europe in colonial period. We now refer to that with some disdain as the European model, where a landowner owns the wildlife on their land. They control the wildlife on their land. We came up with a system where American wildlife is owned by the American people, administered on your behalf by fish and game agencies and by governmental entities.

47:40But American wildlife is American property. It doesn't matter whose land it's on. That has allowed us the ability to have a governing structure to control harvest for sustainability because the state, and in some cases the federal government, has authority over the animals. meaning you could have a big property and it has deer on it, but those deer are not yours to decide what you want to do with. The deer belong to the people. You own the land. You have to get permits. Yeah. Talk to us a little bit about the contemporary market. My guess is it's booming. I don't mean literally the volume of hunting that's going on, although I bet that's, but like in your industry, in your world, outdoorsman media, people buying gear for all this stuff, My gut says that this is a hot area of the economy.

48:31Oh, yeah. I mean, we have a huge economic impact. I mean, you know, you have, you know, any given year, 13 or 14 million Americans will buy a hunting license to go hunt. Over twice as many people will buy a fishing license to go fish. It generates billions of dollars in economic activity. But most of that economic activity is around gear and experiences, right? It's not economic activity about trading in deer. And it's also growing really fast, I take it? Or what kind of growth have you seen? It really spiked. No, it's remarkably stable. It really spiked during the pandemic. Obviously, as people turned to making sourdough bread and cooking venison.

49:12Back to the land. There were spikes. It's remarkably stable over the years. There are two types of Americans. There are sourdough Americans, and they live in cities. and then venison americans yeah yeah yeah so actually that reminds me so one of the things that i took from the long hunter series is that gear is really important because you guys talk so much about the gear that the colonists and pioneers actually had so i feel like there's an element of consumerism in the hunting community where people just collect guns and knives and things. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Like me and my buddies, I mean, to be honest with you, when we're sitting around, you know, and I hang out a lot of people involved in the conservation movement, me and my buddies and we're sitting around, we mostly argue about gear.

49:59I came up in media, but our company, we have a hunting apparel brand. We have a game call brand. We have a hunting decoy brand. We have a hunting accessory brand. So yeah, I mean like gear is, it can't be separated out in the same way Boone was adamant about what kind of hat he wore, I'm pretty adamant about what hat I wear. And that is like the economic activity today, you know, is in large measure equipment and gear. And what's beautiful about it, and I want to throw this in, what's beautiful about it is that's how we fund conservation. So our industry in the 30s, we put ourselves under a 13 % excise tax.

50:38So when you buy guns or ammunition, any gun purchase, guns, ammunition, sporting equipment, There's anywhere from 11 to 13 percent excise tax, which goes right into conservation spending. You go find me another industry that has anything comparable to that. It does not exist. And then our agencies that manage wildlife in America, all 50 states have a fish and wildlife agency. Their funding comes from licenses, permits and stamps paid by hunters and anglers. We're a self-funded group of Americans. Yeah, it's a rare situation. it makes sense, right? Most industries don't voluntarily want to be taxed on everything.

51:17But when you think about the fact that there needs to be some resources to sustain the possibility of hunting for generations to come, it is sort of makes sense that this would be an industry in which you want there to be some sort of price of entry. If I became a hunter this winter, would you make fun of me? Like, would I be one of those guys who it's like, okay, it's my first season hunting, I'm going to buy the most expensive rifle. I'm going to buy the most expensive hat. I'm going to buy the most expensive shoes. You must have a name like those types. And they like show up on the hunt with you.

51:51And it's clear they like went through all the lists and just like bought the top one. Yeah. Like this sort of like wannabes. It's like their first thing. And they just go down the line and buy them deck themselves out in the top of the line gear. The name I have for those people is my buddies. I'm telling you, not a year goes by, man. Not a year goes by that I don't take out friends, family, whoever, people that are interested in hunting, curious about hunting, even sometimes uneasy with hunting, that I don't take them out and kind of explain the world. I have three young kids. I've been lucky to turn them all into, you know, avid hunters, and we share that.

52:30So no, I like sharing this world. It's a world I care a lot about. I care about how it's perceived. Most Americans don't hunt. In some states like California, New Jersey, 1 % of the population hunts. So in some ways, we live and exist with the blessing of the American public in general. So it's important to me for people to understand what we're up to, how we think, and that we're willing to recognize the sins of our forefathers and have gone out of our way to correct those sins. This is a slight tangent, but since we're on the subject of conservation, I'd be curious to get your thoughts. But what do you think about commercial hunting of endangered animals?

53:11So things like lions or, I don't know, buffalo of some sort in Africa? Because one argument I've heard is that these animals at the moment basically have negative value, right? Because they're living on land that you can't use for anything else because you have to conserve it because you need to protect the animals. But if you allow commercial hunting in a controlled way, you basically put an economic value on that animal such that, you know, it becomes something that people want to maintain and preserve and stick around. Yeah, I would first want to just clarify, I don't mean to be a difficult guest, but be careful using the word endangered because it can be, when I say that, like in the US, we have the Endangered Species act.

53:57We have a way that we formally declare things to be endangered. I think in the American imagination, Africa's far away. We hear the word endangered, and it's not really open to certain levels of nuance about where and what. For instance, elk, right? Here in the United States, we have robust populations of elk across the American West. We have hunting seasons for elk. We have open hunting seasons for elk. But elk have only been restored across about 20 % of their native range. Michigan was elk country. Wisconsin was elk country. Virginia was elk country. Elk had been wiped out of those places and not restored.

54:37So you might say, well, elk are endangered because they're not in Michigan and Wisconsin in appreciable numbers. Yet in the American West, in some places we have a problem with too many elk. So you got to be careful with words like that. But to get to the core of your question, yes, it is possible. There are places in Africa, and I'm not a subject matter expert on Africa, like I am, I'm a subject matter expert on these issues in the United States. But in Africa, there are situations where money, like value to hunters is able to put so much value on wildlife that the wildlife becomes worth protecting.

55:18Meaning people that are on the landscape will recognize the presence of wildlife generates so much economic activity that it's best not to kill it all off for use as bushmeat or other applications or because it's a crop pest or because it's dangerous to livestock. They'll recognize that, hey, that lion, that thing's worth 60 ,000 bucks. Half that money's coming to our village. Don't mess with that lion. I mean, that just happens. However you feel emotionally about the killing of lions, that's an economic reality in some places. I feel like don't mess with lions is just good advice generally right yeah i just have last one last question you mentioned bear meat um i haven't had that much wild game in my life i've had um you know sausage with venison and pork and like when i was out in jackson hole i went to some restaurant and you know tried a few different like mini steaks yeah that wasn't even wild game that's just farm-raised animals what should i try that i've probably never tried before what's i like meat a lot so what would i like out out there some of my favorites really you know mallard duck so if you're in a park you see that duck where the male has the iridescent green head when you get those that have been in one place a while and haven't migrated lately and they're getting on crops they're getting in grain fields one of my all-time favorite things this is going to sound weird but true squirrel properly done would kind of blow your mind and it's partly the fun of it like because you have a preconceived notion of what it would be like.

56:52And then when you taste it, you'd think, I cannot believe that's that. That would kind of blow you away. And I think that you would be very, very surprised if you had a bear pot roast in a classic fashion with root vegetables, you know, and a good broth. I think you would also say like, I refuse to accept that that's what it is. And I wouldn't accept it had I not seen it happen. I'd love it. I want a bear pot roast right now. I'll bring you some venison ragu. That's what I've been making so far. Although one thing I learned is that the fat content of venison is actually really low. So it's not very good for making things like burgers and stuff like that.

57:33It's very waxy. It melts differently than beef fat. So it sets up in the inside of your mouth and it doesn't freeze well. So if you want to freeze, when you get your venison from your hunter and you want to enjoy it for the next year, trim the fat away, trim the tallow away. And if you do that, it's basically archival once you put it in your freezer. If you leave that tallow on it, it's not. That tallow will turn even in your freezer. Okay, my last question is, what would you recommend I make with venison? I would start out by making the things that you like the most that are easiest to make. Like you mentioned.

58:09Ragu. Ragu. Yeah. Making hamburgers. Making things that you're comfortable making that aren't overly complex, don't have too many steps. just so you can go and find these kind of like points of comparison. If you and your family, if in the summer you like to grill burgers, like you like to grill up beef burgers, grill up a venison burger. Follow the same basic steps and just kind of get comfortable with the way it's a little different. And when you do that enough, you'll come to prefer it. My wife, like my wife doesn't hunt, man. My wife doesn't like domestic meat. She doesn't like the taste of domestic meat because for the last 20 years, she's eaten nothing but game meat.

58:45She's gotten where she don't like it. She doesn't want to eat it. We're going to have to wrap this conversation up, even though, as we mentioned before, we could go on for hours. I have to say, I hope my husband isn't listening to this because I am planning on getting one of Steve's cookbooks for Christmas. I would love to sign a form. If you want to reach out, I will send you. Oh, that'd be amazing. I'll send him a whole box of stuff if you reach out. Oh, OK. I might. Well, of nominal value. Of nominal value. You guys are actual journalists. A book would be nice for sure. I know a lot of journalists, but not the kind like that.

59:23Steve Rinella, thank you so much for coming on Odd Lots. That was a blast. That was really fun. Hey, thank you for having us. A blast. Appreciate it. Thank you.

59:44Joe, that was so fun. That was so fun. I don't know anything about that, but like we could have talked for three hours. There's so many things I'm curious about now. It is underappreciated, I think, the role of hunting in America's economic development. And it's intertwining, I didn't even know this, with the Industrial Revolution. I didn't know about that either. It's exactly what I was going to say. I would have had no idea. And it's always sort of fascinating to think like you can't run a big factory if you don't have belts. Now, granted, according to Stephen, there were other sources of leather.

1:00:14But it's so interesting to think about, like, here's this thing that if you don't have an access to like one commodity or whatever. You know, there's a new book, by the way, out about rope that I want to have. And it's like a similar story about how crucial rope was. Anyway, it was so fascinating. You know, he mentioned squirrel meat at the end. So, again, I'm just throwing out tidbits that I learned from his series. But, you know, you can't really shoot a squirrel if you're going to eat it because they're so small. The bullet like rips off all the meat. So the way the pioneers used to do it, apparently, is they would shoot at the tree that the squirrel was on and sort of like shock the squirrel to death and it would fall out of the tree and then you can eat it.

1:00:58Wait, Tracy, can I ask you a question that is sort of non-politically correct? Is it true the Germans can't pronounce the word squirrel? Yes. Yes. OK. I've heard this before. My personal experience when I was a kid, I used to ask my uncle to say squirrel all the time just for laughs. And the way he says it is squirrel. And yeah, he struggles with it. I just want an excuse to see if this was confirmed or denied. OK, now that we're talking about squirrels, shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. All right. This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

1:01:32And I'm Jill Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our guest, Stephen Ranella. He's at Stephen Ranella. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armand, Dashiell Bennett at Dashbot, and Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks. For more Odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash Odd Lots. We have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about all of these topics 24-7 in our Discord, discord.gg slash Odd Lots. And if you enjoyed this conversation, if you like it when we look into the economic history of the U.S., then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform.

1:02:05And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad-free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

1:02:27Thank you.

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