Senator Chris Coons on How to Fix Our Response to Avian Flu

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1:15Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal. And I'm Tracy Alloway. Last summer, egg prices surged. We had the avian flu. Egg prices have since come down and I guess we've sort of forgotten about it. I haven't. I have not forgotten about avian flu. It looms large in my mind as I continue to daydream about becoming a small-scale chicken grower. Well, what is happening with that? Things have improved. I was talking to an ornithologist that I'm friendly with, and he says a lot of the infestations in wild birds seem to have subsided. And that was kind of the vector for infection.

1:52But it is interesting if you look at egg prices, egg prices now have basically normalized from the record that we saw in sort of I think it was actually December of last year. So at least from a market perspective, it has faded from recent memory. Right. And so, you know, we do all these episodes about various disruptions and things that happen and then it goes on. And it's sort of like, OK, well, like, can we do it better in the future? Right. Did we learn anything from this episode of sort of major disruptions? Is there going to be a change in the law? Is there going to be a change in logistics?

2:28Is there going to be a change in supply chains? Is there a way to avoid a disruption and an outbreak the likes of which we saw in 2022? Absolutely. And I remember we recorded that episode with Glenn Hickman, the president of Hickman Family Farms, which has a bunch of chickens. It's a chicken producer, an egg producer. and I remember he was describing the existing system for handling avian flu and we got into some of the way it works with him so he was talking about compensation for instance and from talking to him it seems like there is room for improvement there's also a larger question over whether or not the U.S.

3:07should start just vaccinating yes commercial chicken flocks you know what I didn't know until preparing for this episode I didn't know Delaware was a huge chicken Did you know that it's a huge chicken powerhouse state? No, I had no idea. I've driven through Delaware a few times, and I have to say I have not noticed a lot of chickens wandering around. But, of course, they wouldn't just be wandering around. They would be in big sort of barn-like structures. I don't know what I would have guessed if someone says, what state do you think? I don't know. Maybe I would have said Arkansas. I would have guessed Arkansas.

3:38Yeah, Arkansas, right, or maybe Texas or one of the southern states. But apparently Delaware is this huge chicken powerhouse. All right. Well, we have to dig into why Delaware is a chicken powerhouse and what we can do about future avian flu outbreaks. We do literally have the perfect guest for this episode because we are speaking with Delaware Senator Chris Coons, who is, and I didn't know this, he is the co-chair of the Senate Chicken Caucus. And he is the co-sponsor of a bill that they're trying to move forward called the Healthy Poultry Assistance and Indemnification Act, which is trying to, in some way, improve upon the existing system for compensating farmers affected by an avian flu outbreak.

4:23Gotta love the chicken caucus. Senator Coons, thank you so much for coming on Odd Lots. What happens now to farmers if they are in an area, under current law, in an area where avian flu is discovered? Well, the good news and the bad news is that as a country, we're very good at identifying high pathogenic avian influenza outbreaks or HPAI outbreaks. And what happens, frankly, is that the farmer whose flock is infected promptly gets a control order, has to depopulate, has to destroy his entire flock, and is then compensated by USDA for that. However, under current policy, all the other poultry farms in a six-mile radius or a 10-kilometer radius around that HPAI case are not allowed to bring new flocks until the virus is deemed fully contained.

5:19So let's say you're a poultry farmer and I live two, three miles away and I'm a poultry farmer and you tragically have an HPAI infection. You destroy your whole flock. You get compensated for that. But now I can't have any more turns in my chicken house. I can't bring in any more new flocks and be compensated. That's the current situation. So I remember when we spoke to Glenn Hickman, a mid-sized, well, fairly large to mid-sized poultry farmer, he was saying that the other thing that isn't covered is if you need to buy new chickens, for instance, to restock your flock. Are there other associated costs that poultry farmers just aren't compensated for?

6:06Yes, my sense is that growers undergo significant financial struggles. But there is a real gap between those who have a positive HPI case and those who aren't compensated in the same area. And I am optimistic that working with my friend and partner, Senator Wicker, and the other 15 members from across the country of our bipartisan Senate Chicken Caucus, that we're going to be successful in adding additional compensation through the Farm Bill this year. Can I say I'm already a fan of the Chicken Caucus. And I think a lot of people, when they hear that name, are sort of tickled by it. But what does the Chicken Caucus actually do?

6:50Well, the Chicken Caucus recognizes that chicken is a really important agricultural product for all of the United States. It's critical to my home state of Delaware. But across the country, there's 300 ,000 people who work in the poultry industry. It generates about$45 billion a year. And there's major operations in about 30 states. But instead of our having a common and cohesive voice in the Senate, when I got here 13 years ago, there really wasn't that. And so my dear friend, our late colleague, Senator Johnny Isakson of Georgia, Johnny and I launched the Chicken Caucus in 2013. Part of this is just good old home state interests for me.

7:36Delaware has 200 times more chickens than people. It generates about$7 billion a year in economic activity for my state. It really defines agriculture in Delaware. And in fact, this year we're celebrating the century of the broiler chicken industry in Delaware, which began with an accident. A Mrs. Cecile Steele ordered a small number of chickens through a mail order company and got hundreds of them. and then ended up actually discovering that because we are so close to New York and Philadelphia and Baltimore and Washington, that she could really make a successful business out of raising thousands of chickens a year.

8:17And now there are millions in Delaware and around the country. I view it as, in many ways, the most important animal protein in our country. And the Chicken Caucus focuses on the opportunities and challenges for export and domestically of the American chicken industry. Joe, did you know that you can still send baby chicks through the U.S. mail? I did not know that. Can I just say, so we're recording this episode a little differently, just full disclosure. We were recording the interview first and we were going to do the intro after. And this was going to be the story that I was going to tell on the intro because while doing some prep, I read about the story of the woman who meant to order 50 chickens and accidentally got 500 chickens and then started a huge industry.

9:02And I was going to ask Tracy if this is my dream. So what happened to Delaware last year during the worst of the avian flu outbreak? Well, we had some significant losses. There were poultry growers who weren't able to earn the same kind of income they historically had. We did manage to get quick and effective control of the outbreak. The University of Delaware's agriculture school has dedicated programs and trained extension agents. The Delmarva Chicken Association and our Farm Bureau have worked very closely together to make sure that everyone in our agricultural community is well aware of the risks of HPAI and how to deal with it.

9:50And it can have a real impact, both directly in terms of the loss of chickens and revenue, and indirectly in terms of socializing people visiting from one farm to another. But we've got it well underhand. We have a very talented state secretary of agriculture who is well-grounded in our poultry industry. And in the end, we've come through it, I think, stronger than ever. So walk us through the legislation that you're introducing, what it actually does, and how it would differ from the existing form of compensation, which you laid out earlier. It essentially says if you undergo the same financial struggles because of the Department of Agriculture Animal and Plant Inspection Service, the APHIS rules in terms of how you deal with HPAI, you'll get the same compensation if you're within that six mile radius and your economic activity is harmed than you would if you actually had a positive outbreak, if you had an infection in your flock.

10:49It also simplifies the way that you calculate the indemnity payments so that growers have greater security. And I'm very excited about Senator John Bozeman, the most senior Republican on the Agriculture Committee, coming to visit us in Delaware two Fridays from now. He's going to spend the day, visit with some of our producers and growers and talk to leaders in our ag industry. and we're going to be talking through exactly what this last HPAI outbreak meant for growers in Delaware and what this legislation would do for us and for all the chicken industry in the country. I am hopeful that with Senator Bozeman's leadership, it will get included in the Farm Bill later this year.

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13:08It's built to grow with your business, whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process so you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Does the bill differentiate at all between large and small farmers? Because I think a lot of people will think maybe small-scale farmers need additional support, but a large company like, say, a Pilgrim's Pride, I mean, they seem to be doing okay just looking at their share price.

13:50Tyson isn't, but I think there are some other issues there. But does it differentiate at all? Briefly, no. And let me briefly be clear, the integrated business model for growers is quite different. So the vast majority of the farmers in Delaware who are raising chicken have other jobs. and they have one or two or three chicken houses on their property. And a company like Purdue or Tyson's brings the chicks to the farm, provides them with feed, with antibiotics, with support and monitoring. And then whenever they've grown fast enough to then be taken back to be processed, they come to the farm and take them away.

14:36And so as the poultry grower, as the chicken farmer, What you really own is the house and you provide the supervision, the labor, the active maintenance of the house, and you tend the flock. That's why part of the focus of this bill is on the economic harm of not being able to have more flocks come through your houses. But there are hundreds of Delawareans who own one, two or three chicken houses. And these are assets that are, you know, 30, 50 thousand dollars. So this is really aimed at them. It is really aimed at reducing the economic harm suffered by lots of middle class working families who are chicken farmers, but who often also have other income, but where the impact to them and their family of being shut down for months at a time can be significant.

15:29Tracy, you really could do this. I did not realize that for a lot of chickens are produced as someone's like sort of second or third form of income. Yeah, I can supplement my Bloomberg salary. Senator, just remind me, that model that you just described, is that called contract poultry farming? Yes. The integrated model where you have large processors like Tyson's or Purdue, and then hundreds and hundreds of farmers who are on contract with particular processors, has worked fairly well in Delmarva. We've got a system where the growers have options. They can switch between the five big companies in our region if they want.

16:11And the integrators are responsible for the larger, messier, more challenging, more capital intensive parts of the process, both the hatchery, the delivery, the trucking, and the processing of the chicken. And the chicken growers really are responsible for what's in their backyard, for their chicken house, how it's operated and how it's maintained. And it's worked in our region and it's worked relatively well for a century now. So just to be clear, in terms of the upgrades that your bill would propose, what is the name again, sorry, of your new bill? I think it's literally called the HPAI Act.

16:49Oh yeah. So it would compensate farmers who were affected because they couldn't introduce new chickens in the area, even if they didn't have a positive test, it would simplify the payout. On the payout, how big is the pot of money total? Is it capped or is it just however much, like if there were a big national outbreak? Is there a cap on how much would be paid out from the USDA budget? I don't know that. I don't think so. But I also, frankly, within the scope of the USDA budget would expect this would be a relatively small line item. So I know traditionally in the U.S., the way we've handled avian flu outbreaks is basically by trying to isolate the cases, destroy the affected flock, and stamp it out that way.

17:41But there's some discussion of maybe moving to a vaccine-based model. And there are other countries that have started to do this, China being a notable example. Is that a viable option for America? Should we, instead of compensating farmers for millions of dead chickens, should we perhaps be looking at mass vaccinations? Well, that is something that the USDA is currently considering. They are running HPAI vaccine trials, but there are no currently approved HPAI vaccines. And we have to be careful with this and make sure that there is a global decision about whether or not to move forward with vaccination as the means of addressing HPAI because it's a truly global market and it's a significant portion of Delaware's chicken production and of our U.S.

18:34chicken production is for the global market. So the EU, for example, is slated to start vaccinations for poultry soon, whereas the U.K. prohibits vaccinations of poultry. And I think it's critical that efforts to vaccinate American flocks don't have the unintended adverse impact of shutting off key export markets for us around the world. So there are trade relationships that we have that stipulate certain nature of the chickens that get exported, etc. And so depending on what happens with the vaccination, that could be in violation, theoretically. Is that the idea? That's right. So there are countries that I think are inappropriately using HPAI as a as an excuse to stop importing American chicken.

19:22We have long been barred from the Chinese market, for example, which is had been one of our largest, most profitable markets. Actually, ironically, less for the chicken meat than for the cause. It's something that often surprises audiences when I tell them that in some ways the most profitable part of chicken grown in Delaware is the export of their paws to the Chinese market. That's been shut off to us for a number of years. Under the flimsy excuse that HBAI, if there are outbreaks in other parts of the United States, justifies barring exports from Delaware, we've tried to get regionalization understood and accepted.

20:02If there's an HPII outbreak in Washington state, for example, to use that as an excuse to prevent Delmarva chicken from being exported into a market around the world, I think is unjustified. But we also have some countries that have said, if you begin vaccinations, we will bar your chickens from being exported into our country on that basis. Tracy, I'm a big fan of chicken feet, by the way. So am I. Yeah. They're supposed to be good for your skin, too. Lots of collagen. They're delicious. Senator, just on the vaccination point, I believe there are also medical concerns. So the worry is that if you were to vaccinate flocks, that you might still get infections, but they would just be less noticeable.

20:48The chickens wouldn't get as sick, and then they would sort of, I guess, become silent spreaders of the disease to unvaccinated birds. Dr. That's right. That's a concern with any vaccine is that if it's not sufficiently efficacious, if it doesn't have the impact of stomping out the infection, it can simply lead to it spreading more broadly, not being noticed because the carriers are asymptomatic, and then the long-term public health consequences can be significant. So I think it's important that the current vaccine trials that USDA is undergoing be allowed to be thorough and complete. It would be a big change in our policy to deal with HPAI through vaccination.

21:38And if that comes to pass, we want to make sure that it's medically sound, that it's sound as a matter of public health, and that it's sound as a matter of its potential impact on our poultry industry. Forgive me for asking what may be sort of a politics question, but you talk about your work with the late Senator Johnny Isakson. In this case, you're working alongside the senator from Mississippi, Senator Wicker. You know, we're used to, as consumers of news, hearing about these like huge pitched battles in D.C. that always come down to the last second. In areas like this, chicken farming, something like this, is there more of this activity, bipartisan consensus activity than maybe the general public realizes?

22:22Yes, Joe, there is. And frankly, that's one of the reasons I was attracted to forming the Chicken Caucus with Johnny and to continuing to sustain it and lead it, is that it's something that helps pull together senators from across the country and from different backgrounds. And look, that's part of the history of the Farm Bill, is that the Farm Bill has long been broadly bipartisan. The Farm Bill in 2018 got 87 votes. And my hope is that Chair Stabenow and Ranking Member Bozeman will get that strong a support with this legislation this year. And adding this piece, the HPAI Act, to the Farm Bill would help secure some additional support from around the country.

23:05Within my own state, I'm really struck at how organizations that don't necessarily or always support every legislative initiative I take, like the American Farm Bureau Federation or the egg producers or the Delmarva Chicken Association, they're enthusiastically in support of this legislation. At the end of the day, each of us as senators comes here to advance the interests and concerns of our constituents and comes here with some, you know, ideological or philosophical bans. I have enjoyed and benefited from finding core concerns of my constituents, like the vibrancy of our poultry industry, that really aren't ideological, that really don't have a Republican or Democratic tinge to them.

23:50and then finding friends and partners I can work with on things like this. Roger and I, Senator Wicker and I, have worked on a range of different things, from national service to neglected tropical diseases to the chicken caucus. And that has helped us to find our way towards legislating together on other topics.

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25:57Since Joe asked about bipartisan support, let me ask the devil's advocate question, which is, why do farmers get extra support for this type of crop or poultry or animal loss? I mean, other people start businesses, if there's an act of God of some sort, maybe they have insurance for it. Maybe they don't. They have to take on those costs themselves. Why do farmers deserve government support? Tracy, your question presumes that we don't provide billions in subsidies for coastlines that, frankly, we have to pay out every time there's a hurricane season or that we don't provide billions in disaster relief every time there's a tornado or a wildfire or a drought.

26:40and the reality is that we do. Farming is very difficult. It is unpredictable. It is dependent on the weather. It's dependent on the markets. And as you well know, we have the most productive agricultural sector on the planet. And as I have spent time in the developing world in the global south, visiting with smallholder farmers whose yields are a tenth of what ours are, I have come to appreciate the broad and the deep history and the infrastructure here around supporting agriculture. Crop insurance, programs for youth like Future Farmers of America and 4-H, financing, access to credit, infrastructure, investments in hybrids, developing new seeds and new strains.

27:29Our support federally for agriculture is really remarkable. And that's why we have the safest, most secure, most productive agricultural system in the world. And it's why we not only have enough to feed every American, but we send commodity agricultural products from the United States to feed the hungry and the starving around the world. Just a few weeks ago, I was with a bipartisan delegation through the Aspen Institute in Kenya, and we visited both a refugee camp in the far northwest, a remote and difficult and harsh place where there's a quarter million refugees from Sudan being sustained and fed through the World Food Program.

28:11And I got to visit a new factory in Nairobi where they're manufacturing something that really was initially piloted here in the United States in factories in Georgia and in Rhode Island that takes peanuts and milk solids and vegetable oil and micronutrients and makes a nearly miraculous paste called Clumpy Nut. Clumpy Nut. Literally, Clumpy Nut. And if you want to do a show on Clumpy Nut, I would be excited. It has the technical term RUTF, or Ready to Use Therapeutic Food, an acronym only a bureaucrat could love. But Johnny was very passionate about Clumpy Nut. I first heard about it from him because Georgia peanut farmers are so supportive of this critical life-saving paste.

28:58And I got to visit a pediatric ward in a clinic at this refugee camp where tragically children on the edge of starvation were being nursed back to health through medical interventions. But when Plumpy Nut is available, and it is in that refugee camp available, it can help revive children and adults who've been severely and acutely malnourished. So I think it's important for us to recognize that some of the interventions we're providing, like these payments to poultry growers, don't just help sustain our poultry economy, don't just help sustain farmers in the United States, but help sustain us as the reserve provider of nutrition to a lot of the world.