This Stove Company Wants to Change How the World Uses Energy

24:54there's kind of this like interesting gap of batteries for everyone else and for you know people doing weird things like us i have not seen the motion there yet because i think there needs to be slack capacity in the automotive space yeah but we've also been tracking what does onshoring look like what does all the other stuff look like there's a pretty clear step-by-step process that we think is going to exist and it's likely going to involve even the existing players that folks are already sourcing batteries from overseas. Speaking of policy away from energy, do you have a spreadsheet somewhere that's like the cost of manufacturing this item currently versus the cost of manufacturing this item with 20 % tariffs on imports from China?

25:37Yeah, so that's a fun one. I think there's a very funny situation from the first Trump administration, which was, oddly enough, every Apple product had an exemption. Yeah, I remember that. Like, very oddly enough, every Apple product had an exemption. And that was locked in. And so maybe there's an exemption for stoves in the future. I'm joking. I don't think I matter that much. But the point though is they did not exempt appliances in the beginning for reference. So my understanding is a more broad China tariff is something that we could potentially expect. Our playbook is we pick manufacturers that have multiple bases of operations and also are amenable to US on-shoring where relevant or Mexico, I'm sure we're relevant.

26:21So we've been from day zero, very cognizant of this. I mean, another example of this is like when the company started, you could not go to China very easily unless you did a two week plus quarantine and all this other stuff. So we've been very aware of trade barriers and potential risks while also trying to make sure that we work with the best people in the business. I have two more policy questions. One is just really straightforward. You currently, if you buy the stove, you can get a tax credit, right? Yes. And we don't know what the future of the IRA is, but at least under current law, you get, what's the price?

26:55Just - So the product is 6 ,000 bucks MSRP, which is normal for a high-end induction cooktop by itself. So like if you go buy one from one of the fancy European brands, even ones that you can buy and say Best Buy or things like that, there are stuff at that price range. But then you additionally get this 30 % tax credit because it is a home battery system And it is a full home battery system. It's got an inverter. It's able to actually do all the things that a Powerwall can do from a grid interactivity perspective. So you get that 30 % tax credit or you can – you self-submit for the 30 % tax credit.

27:29And then on top of that, there's income-based IRA rebates that kick in. So like there's an$840 one if you're switching from a gas stove to an induction stove. You can get that. It has an income limit. And then a lot of local utilities plus various local jurisdictions have a gas to electric incentive program. And those kind of vary by state and region. All right. The second one, and this is probably one of the most complicated. It's also kind of policy related. But it's also one of the most difficult things for me to wrap my head around despite having read many chat GPT outputs and talked to various guests.

28:09Something you hear from anyone who's involved in distributed energy or renewable energy in particular is that the rules of power markets, legacy rules of the grid that govern the grid, et cetera, are not ideal for a rapid rollout of some of these technologies, whether it's distributed batteries or whatever else. And so I'm curious from your perspective, and I know it's different in every state and whatever, but when you look at the rules that sort of govern how power markets work, what is either worked for you or ideally should change to sort of accelerate this process? Yeah. So people were very critical of the Texas energy markets for being kind of like a libertarian wild west.

28:51And then – But they roll it out fast. And they roll it out fast and they're installing more solar and storage than California is now. And so in some sense, I think this mirrors the Yimbyism movement in some sense where effectively there's going to be strategic deregulation because clean tech is going to win because it's cheaper now. And we need to realize that it's not going to be, hey, we're going to accidentally turn your river purple if we loosen restrictions on interconnection or whatever. It's like, no, you'll actually decrease emissions massively. So I think that there's that mindset does need to change because essentially building now is good for the environment versus in the 70s.

29:26That was not clearly the case. And I also would say that we should look at Europe as a model, which is hilarious to say as a tech guy based in San Francisco. And when I say that is so Europe has deregulated their energy markets closer to kind of what Texas is like. In response to Ukraine. In response to Ukraine. And then additionally, they have been much more lenient on distributed energy interconnection. like at the small house scale. So there's this movement started in Germany for balcony solar power. So essentially, if you have a south facing window in Germany, it's relatively northern, you know, northern latitude, you just hang a solar panel facing south on your like on your railing, and you plug it into a normal outlet.

30:07And that solar panel essentially reduces your home's electricity demand and helps the grid. And they made some very simple rules that a ton of manufacturers now follow. And this is basically just something you can buy and it pays for itself pretty quickly and it's super easy. We need solutions like that in the United States. And that sort of stuff is very, very difficult to kind of work through. I would almost call it like a thunderdome of like regulatory and compliance details because the enforcement regime in the US, there's no single jurisdiction. This is actually one of the bigger problems is There's no single jurisdiction here.

30:42Basically, individual building codes in individual cities have specific rules on what you can and can't do with electrical stuff. And they do cite national codes, like the National Electric Code. But these things are a patchwork of regulations and a patchwork of enforcement across the country versus one clean set of rules all the way across. In Europe, it's like you get this one certification and you're able to just plug in. Whereas in the US, it's not just you have to navigate a very small window of what's possible and then make sure you check all the boxes, which we're very confident we've done so.

31:19And we view that as like one of the really awesome things we've achieved as a team. But additionally, then like playing ball with every utility, which has a different set of APIs, you know, like there's no like, hey, I have a battery, like just go to this one website and like it tells you when to charge and discharge and you get paid for it. Like that doesn't exist yet. And I think that's something where if I was advocating for federal action, it's like stuff of that nature where it's like making it just much easier to control stuff from a standards perspective is going to be a big deal. What's the big risk factor when I read your inevitable IPO perspectives or I don't know, whatever document you produce to be acquired by some massive company?

32:00What are going to be the risk factors that you list? Are they on the regulatory side, on the manufacturing side? That's an interesting question because I think we've actually addressed the ambiguity on the regulatory and install side. I would argue that a big part of this is the appliance industry is this old and stayed industry. One of the big challenges is I actually see it as we're doing something a lot bigger than, hey, we're making an oven or a stove or anything like that. This is something that's much more of a like, we're fundamentally changing how every device connects to the grid by putting battery storage ingrate into it.

32:40So I would argue the risks are going to be around supply chain for batteries, the fact that we've not onshore LFP production in an appreciable way, with some specific brand-specific exceptions like Tesla. And then I would also argue you need a lot of SKUs. People have different preferences and needs and stuff like that. I want to ask a question about financing. So you've raised VC money, but because you're a company that builds physical things, I assume you need a lot of working capital to place orders and that this ties up a lot of cash, et cetera. And I don't think a lot of VCs love to invest in that sort of like pure working capital.

33:22Are there different financing streams that you need? So there's like the growth over time of Impulse Labs. Do you have other financing streams for the actual, like, placing the orders of the various parts and pieces? Yeah. So, I mean, I actually think that there's a missing gap in that space that's, like, mostly addressed by venture debt. That's the sort of canonical solution to this problem. But basically the issue is you can't finance orders for a product that hasn't sold yet, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, you can see this product and be like, this is really awesome and, like, this is going to totally sell.

33:50But, like, you actually have to kick off that process and that cold start is actually – Yeah, and I've heard this in a lot of things related to energy specific, it's come up. Well, there's like a missing middle commercialization. Well, this is also what Kickstarter was trying to do, right? And Kickstarter sort of addresses some of this as well. The other way you address this in hardware is you take orders ahead of time. Oh, yeah. Okay, right, right. Tesla did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is exactly why Tesla has some of these strategies. It's like they address these issues by virtue of essentially having a really compelling mission-driven pitch and being like, you want to be on the team.

34:26By the way, you're basically giving us a free loan. And I think it worked really well, but I don't think there's a standardized solution here beyond raise some venture debt off the tailwinds of your most recent fundraise or something like that. So we're obviously - For the zero to one side of things. So we're obviously in San Francisco and Joe and I have been talking to a lot of venture capitalists and talking to them about what it is that they offer founders and what their specific pitch is. So I'm very curious when it comes to your investors, why did you just - I think it's Lux Capital is the biggest one.

34:58We've interviewed Josh a couple of times. Yeah, that's right. Why did you decide to go with them versus, I assume you were courted by a bunch of others. Yeah, so I mean, one big deal here is this space, I basically would say that VC for hardware is a knife fight. There was basically a very brief window. I would call it like the 2020 to 2022 window where a ton of people raise a ton of money for a lot of different stuff. But basically I wanted to make sure that this was not, we worked with someone who's multi-stage and also has dealt with like things of this nature where this is not going to be a single interaction where then we're successful immediately.

35:35We're building a very complicated platform that happens to be delivered through a stove as the first product. And that's going to require, I would argue a combination of strategic patience, but also like depth of experience from prior hardware bets that had similar processes, basically. That was a big factor in making sure that we work with like multi-stage folks that kind of knew the game versus there were a ton of new funds spun up in that 2021 era, making sure that this wasn't like the meme of the week was hardware. Now, I guess the meme of the week is hardware again, which is great, but making sure that we've got folks that are like mission aligned through a longer process because this is not going to be a two-year-long company that gets acquired.

36:13Are you going to incorporate some AI just so you can put out the press release for your next fundraising round? I mean, okay, so this is an open invitation. If you park a humanoid robot at our office, you can do the same steak demo and we'll just film it. So any humanoid robot companies want to do a little tie-in for PR purposes, just pull up with your humanoid robot. That's my one joke. But actually, it's very interesting is we realized that actually the key product feature for the thing was the temperature sensing. And it turns out that a stove that can hold temperature accurately is just not something that exists, which is kind of a weird thing to think about.

36:49where you're like, okay, I put the pan on the stove and I set it to medium. What does medium mean? Or like you're using one of these touchscreen cooktops and you press the number eight. You're like, again, what the hell does that mean? And so that's the sort of situation where we were like, okay, we actually should do the smart thing and make it so you can say 350 degrees, just like your oven can. And that was an entire can of worms of both custom sensor design and manufacturing like down into like custom ceramic parts. We had to do some crazy magnetic engineering to make everything work too. From that all the way to algorithms that approach but maybe aren't exactly machine learning, if that makes any sense.

37:27I keep threatening to say we can put a transformer on this and make it better, but we're not going to have to do that. But we realized that there was actually some key automations that didn't exist. And it's not a robot autonomously cooking your food. It's the stove holds temperature and then suddenly your cooking workload goes down by an order of magnitude. Do you see a commercial, obviously residential, but like, you know, I imagine a big pain point for a lot of restaurants is that consistency, right? Every dish has to be identical over and over and over and over again. And that requires a lot of patience and stuff.

38:01Is that good? Do you anticipate that? It requires training. And training and someone watching it. So labor costs, et cetera. Is that something you're envisioning as part of the plan? We've gotten a lot of excitement from professional chefs. We're in touch with a couple. We actually have a partnership with Brandon Jew from Mr. Jew's in San Francisco, which we're super excited about. But basically, we're engaging professional chefs across the board on this. Obviously, the first use case is, like, get this into people's home kitchens. Yeah. Because a lot of these folks also do content at home. But the restaurant side, obviously very interested.

38:34I would say the closest analog is, like, Turbo Chef, where, like, Starbucks essentially buys tons of these machines. and there are the ovens behind the counter where they put in your quasi pre-made sandwich or whatever and they hit the red button or the green button or the blue button depending on which sandwich it is and then it comes out perfect because it's programmable. Starbucks can control that from corporate and that can be going while the barista is making your coffee, for instance. And so I can see a direct application of some of this temperature sensing technology into the stove version of some experiences like that for commercial.

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41:05And it won't set out a smoke alarm. And it won't set out a smoke alarm. And this was really tricky because this, the diversion is being very software defined. I got mocked relentlessly online for under-seared steaks. And then we fixed some of the software and now we're screwed. This is real technology. This is like real progress. So having watched the demonstration, part of me is very excited because this seems like a very cool product. The steak was great. The eggs were great. Part of me is also sad because I think I'm a decent cook. And one of my competitive advantages in life is my ability to cook a steak reasonably well.

41:40And now I'm kind of I'm not watching a robot come and take my job, but I'm certainly watching technology perfect that particular human skill. Yeah. Well, you're a cook guy. You like making food. Tell me why I shouldn't be slightly sad about this. It's like the joke. I keep seeing these AI references where they're like, be not afraid, you know, like human. But the point is, yeah, no. I mean, I think the point is basically like, do you want for rustic reasons to have an oven that has a low, medium, and high setting for baking? And then I think the other point is people who are good bakers are good bakers in a dimension after the temperature control portion of it.

42:17And so I think that's the other point that I'm really excited about, which is now suddenly a lot of complicated stuff that was not accessible to you is now going to be. So you don't have to worry about the cooking time and monitoring the temperature. Maybe you can spend more time on like, I don't know, the marinade or like pre-treating the meat or something like that. Pre-treating the meat or slow cooking it. Yeah. And you can – or an example is like you can free up counter space because you can cook rice on this thing without a rice cooker. Though, you know, there will be debates over which profile people select.

42:44But the idea is that is a thing that we can do because our product is fundamentally software defined for, you know, for the first time for stoves. So I just have one last question. And I don't know, cards on the table, having seen it, I'm like, oh, I kind of want to buy one of these. And I don't know. I don't know how soon I'll be in the market for stuff. Q1. Okay. But are there any safety issues with having a battery? I mean, I know it's like sometimes the batteries, people are anxious about them. The scooter batteries, of course, which I guess are different, but - That's a classic New York issue.

43:12Yeah, it's a big New York. It's a really big New York issue where I live in New York. Talk about designing with safety in mind. Yeah. So I think there's actually a couple things to think about when you think about batteries and battery safety. So as I mentioned earlier, the battery is a three kilowatt hour battery that is roughly 30 times the battery size of a 16 inch MacBook Pro. But it's a different chemistry. So first we start with a chemistry design for thermal stability and safety. So we're using lithium iron phosphate, not lithium ion. And what that means is it actually does not supply enough of its own oxygen to like sustain a fire by itself it needs external oxygen to do so which is the big difference between that and the traditional lithium ion chemistry which is like you almost can't put out a fire from a like a phone battery if it goes off in this case it's different additionally the lithium iron phosphate technology has actually advanced to such a point because the cells are so much safer they've actually been able to make bigger cells which is one of the reasons why china has been doing so well with evs because they basically said okay if if a big cell is now safe, we can make a battery pack much more easily.

44:16And so they make these car battery packs out of like very long cells. They call blade batteries that are basically like the width of a table or they're like the width of the vehicle, but like kind of like the profile of a deck of cards just stretched out over the length of a table. And so that's where the technology direction has actually been pushing towards larger, safer battery cells, which we can ride the tailwind of from a safety perspective to start. Additionally, there's a number of relevant industry standards that we're going to be abiding by as part of this so like you have to basically pass essentially like a fire test effectively to make sure that this thing is good and then the last thing which is actually the reason for the scooter story is people are getting these scooters and they're riding them like crazy because they're doing tons of delivery jobs all this other stuff yeah the battery they're actually cycling these batteries because the batteries are not very big on these scooters so like they're wearing them out pretty fast and they're the traditional lithium ion, not the iron phosphate design.

45:14So they're swapping the batteries out on the vehicles. They're also using chargers that are not matched to the battery. And so if you mismatch the charger and the battery and you swap these things out, you've now got a safety problem just by virtue of you're not using the warranty approved equipment to charge the battery. And so that's one of the exacerbating situations with these, specifically these scooter fires. The difference between that and like a stationary storage battery, like what we've got is our charger and our battery are like co-designed together. And so we do that the safety of the integrated system versus, oh, suddenly you could be using a cord that maybe isn't even rated for the right current and the cord catches on fire and then takes the battery out, for instance.

45:56So that's kind of the difference between a lot of the reports of what these fires are versus where we're operating in a much safer domain with an integrated system that we've designed for safety with a different chemistry that is also at lower risk of fire, basically. You mentioned rice earlier, and people obviously have strong opinions about food and how it should be cooked. What's been the most heated controversy that you've had to deal with in designing the stovetop? So there's a bunch of fun stuff. So I'll start with the gas stove culture war. So basically, we announced that we were up to some stove stuff in like November.

46:35to some stove stuff. 2022. Early 2023, there was a, I think it was the CPSC, one of the CPSC members said that they were evaluating banning gas stoves. And this kind of was like a trial balloon sort of thing. I'm not sure if the Biden administration was fully clued in on this, but basically like the GOP, extended GOP cinematic universe was like, okay, this is going to be some good shit. Let's, let's, let's, let's, so this, this happened. And I then decide to post an infographic that's like showing that all the gas stoves where the liberals live. Oh, yeah. It's like a funny thing. So I was in the market about a year ago for a new apartment in the East Village.

47:19Oh, you told me this. Yeah. In the East Village, which is we all know how the East Village votes. And we were looking around and our broker was showing us. And she's like, by the way, this is grandfathered so you can keep a gas stove. Like it was like, you know, because New York is past the right. But like all these buyers like actually want to make sure that they can keep their gas stoves on them. Anyway, keep going. This is correct. Yeah, so the woke mob actually is who has the gas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever you want to – whatever epithet you want to use here. So essentially I post this infographic.

47:51It goes mega viral, like millions of views or something like that. And then also people start coming at me being like with impulse behind the Rocky Mountain Institute study that showed that incidents of asthma are 42 % more higher in homes with gas stoves. I'm like, I had nothing to do with that, man. But it was definitely a fun culture war conversation where I'm like, and then there was people also getting mad being like, oh, yeah, I'm never switching to an electric stove except that one. I'm pointing at us. And so there was some of that feedback as well. That was the first thing. So that was like early 2023.

48:25Then we started getting hardware back from our manufacturer where we're like writing, putting the software together. And I'm getting to the point where I'm like, I should try to do this dry sous vide thing. And so I had this crank idea where I'm like, okay, normally with sous vide, you put a steak in a bag, you put the bag in water and you let water circulate at a set temperature with like a little circulator gadget you put in there. I was like, okay, we developed this new type of stove that can hold specific temperature on the top surface of the pan using technology we developed, which was a giant unlock.

48:57I'm going to cook a steak with it. And I'm going to do it sous vide style where I'm going to set it to like 135 degrees or something like that or 140 degrees and let it conduct through the entire bottom of the pan into the steak. So the whole steak gets cooked like medium rare and then you go and sear it at the end. So I managed to cook the steak medium rare just fine, like that conductive sous vide thing that I mentioned with no water bath, no plastic, no microplastics and all this other stuff. Works great. I then go and sear the steak. Basically, this is a very software-defined product and we've been trying to make sure that we also don't hit smoke points.

49:28in the house. So if you set, if you set the stove to 400 degrees, you can actually fry with olive oil on this thing and it won't like smoke up your kitchen. But there's this very fun, like fine line between like not doing that. And then also like under searing or under cooking the food. So I went and posted a demo video of me doing this whole thing end to end, which is on Twitter link to it or whatever. And my steak looked pathetically seared. And I just got like so much, so much. There's nothing. The two things that set people off on Twitter are being happy and experiencing joy in life and anything that would invite someone to criticize.

50:07Deviations in steak cooking. And anything opportunity for someone to tell you that you cooked the steak wrong. Those are the two things that are guaranteed to make people angry. Yeah. So I basically just got like steak Twitter just went. Yeah. So a bunch of people were like, this is cool. This is cool as all get out. This is awesome. But then another faction of people were just like, dude, what the hell is that steak? Yeah. And then, so that then kicked off a period of learning and self-discovery where, one, we've been doing our software and it's gotten more aggressive at putting the seer on without smoking up the kitchen.

50:36So that's been a big improvement and, like, very excited to shift that to people very soon. But then the second piece was I went on YouTube and I actually followed Chris Young, who makes the Combustion Ink thermometer. And he has, like, this instruction on how to cook a steak perfectly. So I basically just went to Steak University, followed his stuff. And then the videos just started improving. The pictures started just improving time and time again. You rehabilitated yourself. I hopefully did. Hopefully did. It's a really good steak. Sam D 'Amico, thank you so much. This was so much fun. It really lived up to the hype.

51:07Thanks for coming by.

51:22I do love how this story of the stove touches on so many of our themes. Genuinely, I was skeptical when you were like, let's go interview the stove company. Let's talk about, so there's like power markets. There's international trade. Batteries. There's batteries and the attempt by the U.S. manufacturing them. There's a few other ones. Plus there's steak, Joe. Plus there's steak. There's food. Oh, funding. venture funding and working capital and the missing middle for ramping up energy. There is something about this stove that it's like, it's a Trojan horse for talking about topics. And by design, it's a Trojan horse for this vision of like what a different sort of structure of power markets could look like.

52:07It's true. I just realized today's been a big day for me in terms of technological awakenings, because to get to the stove company, we took a Waymo and it was the first time I've ever - And it lived up to the hype, right? Yeah, it was great. So I'm very into driverless cars right now. I'm very into cool electric stoves with battery storage. This is why it's good for us to come out to the West Coast. San Francisco specifically. I like LA. I don't leave with a sense of like, I've seen the future the same way. It's very nice and the weather is good. But you do sort of come to San Francisco. We held a live event here.

52:41You meet a lot of interesting people doing really interesting stuff here. It's kind of cool. Yeah, we met a quantum computer guy last night too. We met a quantum computer guy. We met chips people. I feel a little bit more optimistic about the technologist future, but I guess, well, we'll see. We'll see how these things turn out. Are you actually anxious? Like, I hadn't thought about that element of there are certain skill, pan skills, and tilting the pan in. I mean, the essence of cooking is like responding to the process that's happening in front of you. And so it's funny because I know if I was cooking on that stove, my impulse, my instinct would be to like move the pan around and like flip the steak over more times than it actually needs to be flipped.

53:27Yeah. So like when I, you know, I've never like cooked a perfect egg in my life. And then I cooked a perfect egg on that stove because there was literally nothing to it. And I didn't have to worry about it burning or getting stuck because of how consistent that temperature was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so we're now on equal footing, even though I've been working so hard to develop my skill set at cooking on mediocre stovetops. Oh, well. Shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. All right. This has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

53:57And I'm Jill Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow Sam D 'Amico. He's at S. D 'Amico. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armand, Dasho Bennett at Dashpot, and Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks. Thank you to our producer, Moses Andam. For more OddLots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash OddLots. We have transcripts, a blog, and a newsletter. And you can chat about all of these topics 24-7 in our Discord. You can talk about it in the HGTV channel in the Discord, right? For sure. Discord.gg slash OddLots. And if you enjoy OddLots, if you like it when we talk about the latest in consumer appliance technology, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform.

54:38And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad-free. All you need to do is connect your Bloomberg account with Apple Podcasts. To do that, just find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

55:26How many vendors does it take to meet all your organization's food needs? Just one. EasyCater, the workplace food platform that lets teams order from a huge variety of restaurants over 100 ,000 nationwide, all through a single vendor. In addition to all that variety, Easy Cater also gives you full visibility of your organization's food spend with invoicing, centralized reporting, and seamless integration with expense management systems, all on one platform. Easy Cater, your business tool for food. To learn more, visit easycater.com slash podcast. This is Tom Keen inviting you to join me for the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast.

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