What the Iran War Means for Dubai's Luxury Boom

24:07So while we have seen some videos of drones hitting various buildings, it's not entirely clear, we're getting a really good sense of the situation there. What are you hearing from friends and family on the ground? So overwhelmingly, the message is that things are okay and life is moving on. I think anyone you talk to in the region has a certain, the information flow problem that you kind of alluded to, that is very much a thing. Most people are getting their news and information from social media nowadays. Social media is very tightly controlled in the UAE and in the region in general. So a lot of us who are, you know, have Dubai sort of close to their hearts from the outside end up seeing kind of more than we, more than the people back home do.

24:54Now, there have been certain things, right? There was an attack on the airport. That was major news. The government in Dubai does send, or the government in the UAE sends out alerts and all that. That's the kind of thing that they see. But in general, and I think this is going to be a broader part of our conversation, and not to make a desert pun here, but the UAE has to project an image of an oasis of common stability, right? I like to say that New York is a great city any day of the week, any weather at all times. Los Angeles has to be on its best weather behavior at all times. And there is a similar analogy to be made at the UAE.

25:30The whole game does not work unless it feels safe. That is the number one thing that the government talks about. That is the number one thing that investors tout in their materials when you're soliciting investment for the UAE or convincing someone to move your business to the UAE. Safety is the number one thing. And again, we don't know how bad this is. I think I'd like to make an example from another neighbor of the UAE, the Qatari energy minister. Did you guys see that comment? I mean, that is absolutely stunning. What do you say? So the Iranians struck an LNG facility in Qatar. Oh, this is about the repair time?

26:07No, this is about, he said that it took out 17 % of Qatar's export capacity. That is a stunning revelation to make. I think this guy, his name is Saad Al-Khabi, I think. He is a little bit more outspoken than I've seen other government ministers. But he said they might have to invoke force majeure contracts on exports to certain countries. That is the kind of thing that should give people pause. And we're going to talk about this in a second, but a lot of these countries, the UAE in particular, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, are big, big investors in the global landscape.

26:43Tracy Alloway:You mentioned, all right, you go into the nice restaurant, and maybe at this point it does have a sort of the clientele has this United Nations feel. But as Tracy mentioned, maybe the waiter is from Nepal or somewhere else in South Asia, etc. etc. Again, there's this meme in that the world is going to entering what they call the global permanent underclass. You have to buy this cryptocurrency because this is your lottery ticket out of the global permanent underclass. You have to whatever AI sort of are just talked about in the same language as crypto in that respect. From inside of Dubai, that waiter or the child of that waiter.

27:28Tracy Alloway:Is there this sense that they will always be part of that permanent underclass and that there is no relationship in a sort of societal fabric between the life of that waiter and the life of everyone that they're serving in that restaurant? Yeah, I think that that's very true. The Horatio Alger stories in Dubai tend to be the person who's come in and made the life for themselves, right? The scrappy entrepreneur who came at 30 years old with nothing and now owns a bunch of yachts. That is the kind of story. You do not typically see social mobility within the city, right? So if you are part of what you described as the social underclass, you tend to stay in that role until you leave.

28:09And you will always leave, right? That's the other part of it.

28:13Tracy Alloway:Yeah, and just on your point about business and usual, one of the things that I like to do to sort of get some perspective on an area is go to Instagram and see what the latest photos from that area are. And it's sort of like I've always found that to just be a nice way of figuring out, like, what is the vibe of this? What's going on? It's still to this day, if you look at, if you try to pull up any location in Dubai, particularly an outdoor location, there's a good chance that the only photos you're going to see are, you're going to see a lot of butts in that photo, right? You're going to see photos of women in bikinis with the Burj al-Khalifa in the background or some artificial island chain in the background, etc.

29:01Tracy Alloway:In terms of the information coming out, it is almost no different than, I believe, what gets posted on social media is almost no different than it would have been, say, a month ago. Yeah, I think your strategy works better in a country where there is a broader, sort of a more free press, etc. Right. One of the and you've you guys have probably seen the flood of op eds coming out. I think the Wall Street Journal bureau chief back there wrote a very, very spirited piece in defense of the country because it's a very easy place to take shots at. Right. And we've probably taken a couple here in this episode.

29:33It's a very easy place to take shots at because a lot of people are judging the bargain from the American lens or let's call it the lens of the depraved West. That is not the bargain. They don't care about you, Joe. on. To be honest, what they care about is like a wealthy person who does not care so much about the sort of the broader Western ideals and only cares about the Western ideal of capitalism. And then they will provide all the other things we talked about, safety, high quality of life in one sense, et cetera. So that's very much the case. I think that we tend to be, as people who've been in the West for a long time, tend to be more concerned that we don't get to see the truth as much as, you know, they don't seem to care as much.

30:16What do people really care about? Just having a safe, chill place to live. And the UAE does that better than pretty much anyone. Yeah, but I mean, there is a tension here at the moment where you could argue that if you're a citizen on the ground, like you would like to be more informed about missiles flying around. I know they have an alert system. But also, since you mentioned Instagram, I'm now thinking about geotagging. We know that a lot of the geolocation services in Dubai and Abu Dhabi aren't working at the moment because they're getting jammed because they don't want Iranian drones to know where they're going and vice versa.

30:52So like, there is this informational problem and informational control problem. But I just want to talk for a second about where Gulf money has actually been flowing externally in the world, because this has been a big story, but still an underappreciated one, I think. I think this is the defining story of the investment landscape of the last 10 years. Yeah. Okay. Talk to us about it. Okay. So just broadly, GCC sovereigns collectively, so it's called the big four, the big five, manage close to$6 trillion in AUM. That represents more than 40 % of the global sovereign wealth fund total, right? And increasingly, so I think in the 90s, they were probably mostly focused on fixed income, right?

31:36US bonds being a big part of the equation. I think starting in the 2000s and definitely in the 2020s, they've been flowing towards, let's call it more exotic alts, right? They're in crypto. They're massively invested in venture capital and at the highest, highest level. They're obviously incredibly large real estate investors, both as LP, so limited partners in deals, but also increasingly in what's known as GP staking, which is when you buy a piece of a BlackRock, let's say, right? And the PIF, who, oh yeah, so when PNC sold a$14 billion stake in BlackRock around in the pandemic at some point, the buyers were Mabadla, KIA, which is Kuwait, QIA, which is Qatar, and PIF, which is Saudi, right?

32:24So they are all over, the tentacles are so incredibly well spread into all aspects of the global economy, especially in the United States. And I think one question that I have, and I'm sure a lot of people have, as this conflict drags on, is will that spigot stop or at least tighten up, right? Because I think you wrote about it in your newsletter recently, petrodollars are essentially what creates this giant pool of money, right? And right now, let's say, hopefully, the conflict ends in the next couple of weeks, if that is the case. The UAE can very quickly get out of this hole because it probably has the best functioning government in the modern era.

33:10If this goes on for months and longer, then you have to have those questions. I mean, I think it would be really interesting to talk to a fund manager right now and see what kind of conversations they're having with PIF, Mabadla, and the likes, because those conversations, and we like to say investors like certainty and this ain't it, right?

33:26Tracy Alloway:Okay, there have been the hits to some energy infrastructure. Why does it change? How much do you perceive that this story of lots of money coming in because people carry it in their pockets and then lots of money going out because it enters these huge funds that are funding everything from AI to infrastructure to all kinds of things? So far in this war, is there anything that disrupts the trajectory of that model? So far in this war, there hasn't been anything that shows like, hey, the party's going to stop. But I think the cut theory example that I pointed to is the first one I said, wow, they're talking about 17 % of export capacity.

34:10That is very serious. At some point, if not already, QIA has to be brought into the room and say, okay, let's assess the situation, right? I would imagine this would come up. And then there are these long-term bets. I think you had one of my favorites on at some point, Ziyad Daoud, to talk about. Oh, yeah. He's so good. He's incredible. We're going to get him on again for sure.

34:30Tracy Alloway:And just for listeners, he's our colleague here at Bloomberg. He's in Bloomberg Economics, right? And so, yes, we're going to try and have him on ASAP. He's incredible. I think I first heard about him on Sultan al-Qasimi's Cultural Much List, which is a really fun thing that he used to do. I think he's restarting. But anyway, you guys had talked to Ziad about the UAE's$35 billion investment into kind of the Egyptian coastal development, etc., right? Yes. Those kind of bets are where I would say, okay, that's just sort of a commitment made to doing things in the future, right? It's like a$35 billion number.

35:07That's probably going to be over a couple of decades or so. So when you make those kind of claims or you make that kind of commitment and you see all this stuff happening in your own home, maybe there's some talk of redeployment, holding back, etc. I think those are the big things. A lot of the other money we're talking about, and we'll talk about private credit in a minute, has already been committed, deployed, etc. But the scale of the UAE specifically's investment in this, let's call it the frontiers of the new economy, I don't think is fully appreciated. I mean, MGX, which is a state-owned, state-controlled, Sheikh Dahnoun controls this giant sprawling web of at least a one and a half trillion dollar pool of money.

35:49The various funds stitched together from Abu Dhabi. It is in everything. It's absolutely in everything. And again, this is again a question of how long the conflict will go on. I'm not an expert on that. But if this drags on for a bit, there has to be some reckoning with how that money is flowing.

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39:02It's hard to tell if, you know, if they're going to leave forever or if they're just planning on departing during the worst of the conflict. But if we were to see an exodus from Dubai and presumably real estate prices would be impacted from that, that could be the line of entry where you start to get more pressure on government finances, right? Yeah, I think more than any other city probably in the world, Dubai is in the sentiment business, right? The sentiment business, right? Their primary sources of revenue are real estate, tourism and commerce, right? Those are the three and those are all sentiment based industries.

39:41In fact, I don't think I've seen, I haven't heard personally of any departures in the way that I remember in the first Gulf War in the 90s, there was a flood of people that left. I think that if anything, the UAE is kind of being more tested now than back then. But I think they've done a really good job of creating long-term incentives this time around for people to stick around. Things like the golden visa, which is very similar to the EB-5 visa or the Trump gold card. It's kind of modeled on the golden visa. Things like property rights, a more robust legal system. They've put all those things together.

40:16Now, if people do leave, what does that look like? First of all, real estate prices, people have been talking about a correction in the UAE for a long time. If people start leaving, that is certainly going to be on the table, right? And then kind of the back infrastructure of financing a lot of these projects will be tested. the bond market, the Islamic financing market, etc. That's when things will start getting shaky. And again, one of the things that is, Dubai has got a very, very robust private markets economy now. But at some point or the other, there is some government involvement in that, right?

40:55Either by backstopping or being an LP in many things, etc. I don't know, I think Tracy, I don't know where Mara stands now. But at some point, it was very much an arm of the state now. Yeah. Yes, I think that's fair. Yeah. So I think we'll be, if we do see an actual exodus or an outflux, then there's a lot of questions to be asked about the stability of that market. And again, this is an absolutely insane market. So things have been selling off plan. There are stories out there about$800 million worth of product selling in a single day, right? That is a momentum driven, like I need to get in while this market is still semi-affordable.

41:38And by semi-affordable, I think one of our, the reason we connected in the first place is that you have to look at the ultra luxury market in the world as a collection of properties, as opposed to compare them to local comps, right? And at that level, if you look at it from that level, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, et cetera, are still a relative bargain. So this all really is contingent on it maintaining its demand from very wealthy people. And safety is obviously that X factor in all of that.

42:10Tracy Alloway:You could make the argument that the UAE has the best functioning government in the world. And I think this is very important because particularly in the West, that is not a comment that will be uttered in a million years in the United States, in the UK, in France, in Europe, etc. I mean, the idea of a functioning government feels almost like it could. What's that? Those words don't even go together anymore. Could you explain a little bit, you know, how that works? We often think that governments, particularly non-democracies, are riven with corruption and have no accountability and so forth. And there are all kinds of reasons on paper to think that that would be impossible.

42:58Tracy Alloway:How would you describe the sort of organizing principle of the government such that it doesn't collapse, whatever it is? What is it about how it's structured where actually public sector is taken very seriously and effective? Okay, that's a heavy question, but let's try, right? There's two elements to this. One is a functioning society in which things just seem to work. And the UAE government has done probably, again, an incredible job of doing that. You want to set up a business, you can do it. You want to make money, it's yours. No one takes it away from you. This has always been true, et cetera, right?

43:36If a crime happens, it is handled very quickly. That's one part of it, right? That's the actual tangible on the ground. They build roads all the time. You can see the progress. There's never a pothole in sight. You will never see any vagrants. You will never see any violent crime, et cetera. So that is the, as a person living here that makes half a million dollars a year and expects a certain quality of life, the government is giving me that quality of life. That's one part of it. The other part of it is a little more state crafty, right? which is the illusion that is created that this is the best government in the world, the illusion that is created that this is the safest place in the world, and then is repeated and amplified by everyone who lives there.

44:15Because that's part of the deal, right? You go there, anyone, and again, they do an incredible job of creating that society. Everyone from athletes to actors to footballers, etc., will throw in a plug for Dubai randomly, seemingly randomly, in any conversation they have. And I think part of this is because there's gratitude and part of it is because it seems like that's part of the deal. Let's go back to private credit for a second, because this is one of the reasons we really wanted to talk to you, because a lot of that money, direct lending, has found its way into your world in various ways.

44:51It's hard to gauge how active or how big the GCC presence in that market has been. But what's your sense of it? I think it's been fairly large and only growing. And I think a good example to look at is something like Mabadla. Mabadla is one of the more prominent, I think it's$350 billion-ish AUM, but is incredibly aggressive in the private credit space. They recently did a full takeover of Fortress, which is a big player in commercial real estate credit. They have been, and I think we talked about this in your newsletter as well. Abu Dhabi in general has been getting very much into the debt game, not only directly by purchasing companies like Fortress, but also by being an anchor LP in a lot of the private credit funds that we see, right?

45:42So BlackRock, and I think this all comes back to a trend that we like to call AUM gobbling, right? So you cannot, there's no such thing as a good midsize fund anymore. Everyone's got to be Brookfield or everyone's got to be Blackstone. And so Sixth Street, I think Fortress, the co-CEO made the statement, which is like, for us to stay relevant, we need to keep growing assets. It's not enough to run the book that we have and do it well. We just have to keep gobbling up other parts of things. So if you had a dedicated fund, let's say you had a senior housing and affordable housing fund, you're doing very well.

46:17You have$2 billion you're running. You're incredibly good at that. eventually the call comes in from a fortress or a sixth street, et cetera, and you're picked up. To make these kinds of things happen, you need an incredible amount of liquidity slash capital. And all roads lead to Abu Dhabi when it comes to that kind of thing, right? So Bloomberg had an amazing article about how to meet the world's one and a half trillion dollar man, I think it was called. And it was about Sheikh Tahnoun and his entire web of companies and amazing uh that kind of figure and once you're in with someone like the sheikh or one of his deputies you have access to kind of unlimited amount of capital larry fink is in a lobby what i would venture to guess every month ray dalio there's that iconic shot of him in the kundura sitting there at the table with all the movers and shakers uh they have they have sort of infiltrated every aspect of private credit when it comes to real estate the name keeps coming up And if the name doesn't come up directly, it comes up as a backer of a lot of these companies that we talked about.

47:20AI infrastructure, PIF, I believe, is the anchor investor in Blackstone, I'm sorry. And PIF is the anchor investor in Blackstone's infrastructure fund, which is their, quote, lens into the AI boom. MGX is a partner in this really stop and start government project, the US government called Stargate with OpenAI, etc. It's had a bit of a mixed run, but MGX is an anchor investor in that. MGX is also an investor with Microsoft and BlackRock in that giant AI venture, right? So there's just the odds that Abu Dhabi or one of the Middle Easterns is involved when it comes to these big infrastructure bets is very high.

48:01Tracy Alloway:The Gulf states didn't ask for this war, at least the vast majority. Talk to us about sort of regional politics. And obviously, you know, we know that it may have been his first foreign visit, right? Since taking the presidency, Trump quickly went to the Gulf. And, you know, even at the time. The iconic sword dance thing. Oh, yeah. The orb. That was in the first Trump. In the first time. Yeah, but still same deal. You get this impression that Trump has golf tastes. Oh, yeah. I mean, even before all this, right? His brand was actually... So the way that people in New York think of the Trump brand is tacky luxury.

48:47Tacky luxury, right? In the Gulf, it's thought of as luxury luxury. Yeah. Right. It's always been, they're simpatico in so many ways from kind of having incredible control over their societies, which is something that our president has always kind of aspired to, right? And some would say he's doing pretty well on that front. But there's always been that kind of simpatico between Donald Trump and the Gulf leaders. There has been some friction on the front recently, though.

49:17Tracy Alloway:Well, this is what I'm trying, this is what I'm getting at. Could that change? Again, massive damage to their domestic economies for a war that they certainly didn't ask for. Is there any prospect of, in the wake of this, whenever that ends, some slightly new trajectory between the U.S. and the Gulf? Impossible to tell if the war drags on, but for now, I don't think so. I think they've been pretty in lockstep with the US's policy on this, right? There's been reports, and this is above my pay rate and above my beat, but there's been reports that Saudi was very much pushing for this. Yeah, that's the one exception.

50:00Tracy Alloway:You sort of get the impression that Saudi was also one of perhaps one of the movers. Correct. The GCC countries often don't see eye to eye, especially on Iran, right? There's a fair amount of friction between the two powerhouses, the UAE and Saudi Arabia on a lot of geopolitical issues. They're brothers, but kind of not, right, as well. And there's a lot of rivalry in general for capital. And the joke, I think even when Tracy lived there was probably you lived in Dubai and you would go consult in Saudi for four days a week. That's not so much the thing anymore. Saudi's been pushing people to live there and, you know, upon threat of losing business, etc.

50:43But I think back to this fracture or potential fracture between the US government and the GCC, we haven't seen anything from government level friction yet. We have seen, though, a couple of very influential businessmen. Khalifa al-Habtur, who was a big developer player in the UAE, had put out a letter kind of excoriating Trump for starting this conflict at the behest of Israel, right? And this was a big, big deal for a statesman level businessman in the UAE to talk about this. The letter was at some point redacted, right? And then Al-Habdur sat down with the Washington Post and did this incredibly entertaining interview about, you know, it's more about kind of the cohesion for the long term, etc.

51:33Doesn't agree with the war. But I think in general, pissing off your American allies at this point is not good, etc, etc. So we have seen some of that. Now, again, Joe, your question is really about how long this lasts. For now, they can kind of keep things going. But if this is a months long conflict or longer, God forbid, then there might be a little bit more of a fracture, right? Just on that note, what are you watching in terms of, I guess, gauging the overall health of the Dubai property market, but also the overall health or circulation of that oil money in the wider property space? So on the first one about the overall health of the Dubai property market, I think one thing you want to pay attention to is if any planned or announced projects, if they're kind of continuing on the timeline that they talked about.

52:24Again, a lot of these depend kind of like Miami's economy on pre-sales, right? They get commitments and then they go build the thing. And the views, I mean, these things get more and more fantastical. Tracy, this is very much for you. There's one, I'm going to pull it up. Hang on. There's a tower that's coming up, which is called Aiwa, which is a 21-story residential tower designed to look like the Hallelujah Mountains from the Avatar movies. That's coming up. Wait, why do you say that once for me? Because you love this stuff. You've always wanted - No, I do. I do. I wouldn't want to live there, but I like hearing about it for sure.

53:02They're doing a lot of interesting innovations with engineering and design. they're doing Manhattan-like skinny supertalls now as well. So they have a tower coming up that's a 17 to 1 height to width ratio, which is the kind of skinny pencil tower that you would see on Billionaire's Row. But on Billionaire's Row, land is such a crazy constraint. In Dubai, it hasn't really been until more recently. Yeah, that's wild to think that they're doing that now, that that's how far it's gotten. Well, I think it's a little bit of both. I think it is one a financial constraint that they're trying to solve for, and the other like, hey, if this is, you know, this is all the rage in New York, then why not do it here?

53:45With the government, or with the, sorry, with the UAE, it's hard to tell when it's being done for sort of financial prudence and when it's being done because someone else somewhere else did it.

53:57Tracy Alloway:What has been the strategy? I mean, okay, the ultra-rich going, moving to the Gulf, moving to the GCC states. How active is the push to get just the merely rich or the sort of, you know, as they would say, the mass affluent, et cetera? Has there been a push to sort of like make more people around the world aware of the fact that they can move to Dubai and cut their tax bill and live a much more comfortable life in better weather? I would say it's almost a strategic imperative of the government. It is such a big initiative to get not just your Ray Dalios of the world, which is much more of a personal relationship, banking relationship, but to get those families that are down for this lifestyle to come over.

54:47When you enter the Dubai airport now, which is one of the busiest airports in the world, you will see these giant, absolutely giant interactive ads about all ethnicities. You used to see, typically you would see white people in these ads, right? Now, I just went a couple months ago or a month ago, you're seeing Uzbeks, you're seeing Canadians, you know, and it says specifically, Canadians, this is your Dubai, Uzbeks, this is your Dubai, etc. They are pushing this beyond, I wouldn't be surprised if there's like an arm of the government dedicated just to what you're talking about. And just going back to thinking about, you know, warning signs of trouble ahead, What are you looking for in that global capital space?

55:31A lot of these conversations happen behind closed doors, but I think one of the things that we're doing is talking to fund managers and seeing if there's any kind of hesitance expressed by these LPs, right? Whether it's in staking conversations or backing funds, that's probably where you're going to see the most pressure, which is not now. And in fundraising, not now is as good as no, right? So if you start seeing those conversations where God knows Brookfield is going to raise another distressed credit fund and the conversations with Abu Dhabi or with Saudi, et cetera, get a little bit more wishy-washy, that is something definitely to look out for.

56:11Because without ongoing constant momentum, this doesn't work. And the scale of capital needed, I think a great example is that, oh God, if that Electronic Arts LBO deal was going on now, the EA Sports, formerly EA Sports Electronic Arts, it was a$55 billion LBO, which I believe is the largest in history. It was brokered randomly by Jared Frickin Kushner, right? And PIF wrote a$29 billion equity check into this transaction to take, I think, majority control of EA. Would that deal have happened in this environment? I venture to say it would have taken a little bit longer. All right, Hiten, we're going to have to leave it there.

56:56But this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for coming back on OnLots. Really appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you, Tracy. Thanks, Joe. Joe, obviously a lot that stood out from that conversation, but one of the things I was thinking was that sort of flywheel dynamic that Hiten was talking about towards the end and also just the interrelatedness of all of this. So I think that one of the difficulties is if you're a sovereign wealth fund in Abu Dhabi or Dubai at the moment and you've invested a lot in private credit, a lot in tech, those areas, even independently of what's happening in the Gulf, there are concerns around that at the moment.

57:37Right. And then if you think that, well, maybe the UAE won't be able to sell as much oil as it has in the past, or maybe some of that tax and tourism revenue is going to start going down because there are drone strikes in various cities. That's, I think, where you start to get the potential for some real weakness. Yeah.

57:58Tracy Alloway:I mean, you just think like, how much does it really take to change their trajectory? And does it, you know, could it be as simple as a meaningful downshift? I'd say the war ends fairly soon. But, you know, what if you had a year or two in the wake of it where there was a significant decrease in the amount of capital flowing into the region relative to what's expected? What are the ripple effects of that? And again, you know, it's hard to get really good information from what you said in the beginning. And I think this is really key. I do think it's hard to tell from the outside world. And it does like you see plenty of pictures where it all sort of looks the same, but you don't really know about the truth of that.

58:46Tracy Alloway:And I think right now in this moment, there are probably plenty of people. It's like, you know what? I like the idea of moving from England. And I think it's really big. It's actually like our government doesn't pay attention to anything big going on domestically or whatever. I know that this is a very big part of U.K. politics right now. the flight of the well-off, who they're already under a tremendous fiscal strain. And if you have money and you don't like the fact that half of your money is going to the government and all of these sort of pathologies and dysfunctions that we see in the UK, it has become an extremely popular option to just decamp to Dubai.

59:27But this is the other thing. If you're targeting, if you're trying to attract an extremely wealthy mobile population into your city, The converse of that is that they can leave, right? Like if for whatever reason they don't feel safe or they just think like, you know what, now's the time for a really long vacation somewhere else in the world, they can go.

59:50Tracy Alloway:And I really think that, again, you know, this meme, there's going to be a point where there is this global permanent underclass, which is a phrase. And I do feel as though Dubai is ground zero for this phenomenon where you have an extremely rich, well-off part of the society that has access to every luxury experience that you could possibly think of. And then there is this layer of people that will never ascend to that despite living in the same country. It does not seem like a place where you could, quote, work your way up. Yeah. I have to say, you know, Hiten mentioned also the sort of like UAE legends, like the Horatio Algers of the UAE.

1:00:37I still remember a big one was this Indian guy called B.R. Shetty. Does that name ring a bell? So he built this huge medical company called NMC, and then it turned out to be a massive fraud. But he was like the guy that people would point to as, you know, you can make it here. Anyway, we can keep going on. Hitton is just the best.

1:01:00Tracy Alloway:I love talking to him. All right. Shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. And I'm Jill Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our guest, Hiten Simtani. He's at Hitsamty. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at CarmenArmond, Dash O 'Bennett at Dashbot, and Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks. And for more OddLots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash OddLots. We have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about all these topics 24-7 in our Discord, discord.gg slash OddLots.

1:01:35And if you enjoy Odd Lots, if you like it when Joe muses about the default Miami man, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad-free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

1:02:05Thank you.

1:02:36changing relationships, and traditional expectations around masculinity can quietly wear men down, often without clear warning signs. In Season 3 of The Visibility Gap, Dr. Guy Winch and his guests explore how these pressures show up, how to spot them earlier, and how men can access meaningful support. Listen to the new season of The Visibility Gap, a podcast presented by Cigna Healthcare.

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