Aimee Smale On Success, Stress & Why Being The Richer Woman Is STILL Taboo!

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1:50Second chances. Chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. We launched a resort collection. It nearly grossed like a million pounds in one day. It was like insane. You started with£12 ,000 of your own savings. I had no marketing knowledge, no marketing budget.

2:08Olivia Attwood:Sunday Times reported in 2024 that Odd Muse had sales of£22.5 million. This is like the big leagues. It's quite mental. I don't actually think about it too much. You make the move to New York, you're going to open this store in Soha, and then Trump puts these tariffs in place. The New York store was empty for like two months. And you're paying rent? Paying rent, yeah. How do you manage your stress when you're going through a year like that? I don't. I have no management. It keeps you up at night. Yeah. When you've got a commercial lease like that, I've got like 60 people on my team. If this all goes down tomorrow...

2:49Olivia Attwood:Hi dolls, welcome back to Olivia's house. I am joined in my house today by the founder of Odd Muse. It's none other than Amy Small. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited for this one. I'm excited. I'm always excited to speak to a business woman and you have quite a story that we're going to delve into. Before we start, I don't know if you listen to the show, but we do a little thing here. We do a leave it at the door. So I always ask my guests what they'd like to leave at the door before we get into our chat. I thought about this one. And people who say they're gluten-free when they're not.

3:26It winds me up. That's a good one. Just say you're cutting down on bread.

3:29Olivia Attwood:As in, they pretend they're allergic to it. Yeah. Do you have any people in your life that do that to you? A lot. They say, I can't have gluten. But I actually say, it's probably just that they don't have carbs. It bloats us all. A bone of the pasta bloats us all. Yeah. And it's fine to cut it out if you want to. Do you know what I mean? Because some people are celiac. and that's serious people like get really ill off gluten we've got people out here pretending to be gluten free that that it just happens a lot i can't i've got a couple friends where i can't gauge it like are we doing bread today are we not yeah it just it winds me up a bit so i'm out of the door that's a really good one actually where do you stand on a bread basket are you down for a bread basket yeah who isn't i'm grace that works with me where i would say to her oh don't let me near any bread but when we because i'm on those ones i can't control myself around bread and then I'll overeat it and then I'll be full.

4:18Oh, yeah, I'm like the classic, like, you know, when your mum used to tell you when you're younger, like, don't ruin your dinner.

4:23Olivia Attwood:Yeah. Yeah, me. You're just off the plane from Dubai? Yeah. And going back tomorrow? Going back tomorrow, yeah. Flying visit. Yeah. I mean, we'll get into where you've been all around the world in our chat, but you're living in Dubai now? At the moment, yeah. At the moment. I kind of go where the business needs me. So the Middle East at the moment is really working for us and it's very exciting. and how do you find like because I've always holidayed in Dubai my whole life pretty much how do you how is it to live there I mean just really nice like I hate how much I love it to be fair because there's so much you wish you could like there's so much slander about it yeah I just I really like living in the sun I don't know how long I'll be there um but I just enjoy the ease of life for a second like I've just lived in such hectic times for the last five years so I'm just chilling out there is it a bit more of a slower pace of life than say yeah in New York yeah yeah 100 % a lot more slow a lot more comfortable let's take it right back let's take it back to Amy who was 21 years old working at ASOS what was your entry into working at ASOS what were you doing there did you know did you always know you want to be in fashion yeah so I started out in a buying team which I always say anyone who wants to like own a brand one day like going to buying because you really like learn like how brands actually get stock on a site or like on the shelves and stuff like the idea of making clothes buying clothes margins all the stuff behind it so I did that for about a year and a half and then lockdown happened and I was kind of working from home I got moved to the beauty department which some people like beauty buying but for me I feel I honestly felt like I was ordering like 25 pixie 25 ,000 pixie glow tonics every single day whereas like before I was like going to like appointments and picking out new season clothes and I was like this is not fashion anymore so you know that your heart was with fashion yeah 22 years old spending too much time with myself over lockdown and I'm just gonna give this a go on my own did you have an idea for the brand for a while and what it would be and yeah it would look like yeah a hundred percent because when I first started working at ASOS I was working on the premium women's wear department which was their like lowest performing department no one in the uk wanted any of these like gorgeous australian brands so i was like i need to like bring out this like mid luxury brand that people are actually going to buy into yeah because asos were only buying like dress it like viscose dresses for 150 quid so i was just like i need to come in at that price point with stuff that people actually want to wear and do value in the uk so that's how i kind of landed on it but yeah it took being like 22 and like being mega naive to to just quit my job and do it did you think you were naive at the time no i genuinely was like i've planned this all out to a t this is gonna work and i feel like that's when you've got to do it like i was like no one could tell me anything i was like this is gonna work um so yeah you launched odd news in september 2020 with the iconic belted blazer i actually wore that belted blazer yeah do you know that you got the white one yeah it was all like a tv show what was it um it was it might have been my living meets her match the reality show i think jeff it was like it was like a game show i'm sure i don't know i'm trying to tell you where he was i think i might have worn a couple of different right okay a stylist put me in one in a photo shoot one time because it was the blaze i remember the it was like thick gorgeous material it had like a pointed yeah yeah cut hem cuff big wrap right it was a very the piece was very recognizable and that was like your kind of hero piece wasn't it that was like my first like viral piece yeah and when you launched where did the name come from odd muse oh i really need to like work on a better story for this i thought you might have like it right so i was obsessed with the word muse yeah and i thought what i was doing was odd odd muse what a crap explanation i need to get a lot more contemporary with it um um note for next time so that's how you but that is genuine just having a thing what should i call it people love the name i love the name people love the name and it's so unique and even like silly things like when you google it nothing else comes up like it is odd music stands on its own so yeah that was a bit lucky names are important so that's lucky that people like it it does stick in your memory are you you started with 12 000 pounds of your own savings and you went right in was it enough uh yeah because i basically just spent it all on stock okay i had no marketing knowledge no marketing budget so it was purely on getting this product product to the stores and do you had you learn a lot in your time on asos like how did you even know where to yeah i definitely learned how to price garments and i think everyone will go into a fashion brand not knowing how to do that so i knew how to price even if someone like asos or selfridges would come knocking i knew how to price so there was still a margin for me so I think yeah that's just something people don't really understand going into things that blaze that you launched with went viral Lorna Lux wore it yeah very early on was that one of the kind of the breakout moments for you 100 % because and I always say to her like I she's quite modest but I put a lot of that first moment to her I do believe the brand would be where we are today but I just don't think I would have had that start and it was just very organic like she purchased it herself she posted on her story like just found this brand and it literally went crazy um so I think she gave me she gave me that moment within the first two weeks because it was reported that in the first three months of trading you generated a hundred thousand pounds yeah just through the blazer I had like seven other pieces on site but the blazer was it was a blazer and I think that taught me something really early on that you only really need one product so when people ask me I'm like don't bother trying to build out this like eight piece capsule like just focus on like being good at one thing and that's why it took us like three years just to launch a dress yeah because you wanted to get it right yeah so yeah she that taught me a lot like catapulting and having so many eyes on the brand and seeing that they only really loved the blazer was really important I had no qualms about them hating the rest of the collection i was like right you've got a piece that's another thing buying will teach you as well like if they don't like something move on whereas i think a lot of people get very emotionally attached to their products whereas i'm very much like she didn't like that move on don't do that again so yeah that's a good piece of advice don't personalize it oh so just because you like it if it doesn't sell draw a line under 100 % 100 % has there been times when you thought something's gonna pop off and then you're surprised the reaction or vice versa maybe maybe it's a piece you underestimated a couple of times there was there was a point in 2024 where we had an amazing summer like it was our we launched a resort collection it nearly grossed like a million pounds in one day it was like insane and then for the next collection we like backed it hard but it was like it was august who's buying august is like the weirdest time in people's wardrobes because they've bought all their summer clothes and they're not quite ready for winter but we like backed this collection thinking it was going to be super super successful and it just wasn't so yeah thinking about like you know that was a point where it told me that odd news isn't invincible and you have to really look at like the months you're selling um but yeah loads of loads of times over the last five years like things haven't worked that I thought was going to work but again like we just take that as a lesson when you see that kind of money coming in like what does that actually feel like when you see sales and you're holding your phone and it's like you say you're trading at these insane margins what does it feel like at the beginning it was like shocking like I remember when Lorna posted us and we generated like 60k that day and I was like sitting on the stairs looking at my mom and dad and my iPad like shall I tell them like just made 60 grand like should I tell them and I was like I don't think I should tell them yet um but now it's kind of like I've got big dreams I want I've self-funded it up until this point so I kind of I've never seen it as money in my pocket ever do you know that money in the business is not yours I mean I only appointed a finance director about a year ago and the first thing he said to me was like I've never seen someone manage cash flow like this at like your age your level like in a positive way in a positive way yeah like i have i just saved so many rainy day funds because i just knew i wanted to grow the team and go into stores and i've always been a bit reluctant to work with i don't know investors and stuff like you still self-own the brand yeah and like is that has been a conscious decision to not go investor backed like i guess you've probably had offers yeah i've had offers um i think i don't know i've never really had to take the investment no we started as like a pre-order brand which is basically like having an investor we was essentially selling the stock before we had to pay our supplier such a good way to run and that was something that we completely fell into just because of the blazer selling out i remember after lorna wore it i'd only bought 100 units wow so i was like there's 800 people that want this blazer and they're not going to wait four weeks like i know everyone's it's covid everyone's like got scrolling tiktok they're just moving on to the next thing i need to sell to them now so that's how pre-order started um and we are moving away from that but for the first like four or five years that just meant we was able to order exactly the stock we need so we was never left with stock that couldn't sell because we was always selling it before it even landed in the UK.

14:05So, yeah, I feel lucky to... There's a few things that we've kind of fell into accidentally that have just led us to where we are today, yeah.

14:14Olivia Attwood:Alongside Lorna, any other moments? I feel like the Molly mate Wimbledon... Yeah, that was a real... She wore a white dress by you guys. Yeah, that really solidified us as like a Wimbledon brand. Yeah. I feel like you are such a Wimbledon brand. Yeah, we are. Yeah, it's a big, big season for us. um we only actually done the event like brand wise for the first time last year um but yeah that is a big moment when molly wore it because i actually like didn't even see the text from her stylist or anything like she just went online and bought that again yeah so that was another like lucky organic moment um because you you've been open you spoke about like you know the amazing like impact it has with influencers organically wearing the brand but you also spoke about early on in your career you did an la based influencer dinner was it with the selling sunset girls yeah where you basically said what you what you spend you didn't make any money basically out of it basically pretty much and i remember i like cleared my account that's the only time i've been bad with cash flow that was like i know first year or first two years but that taught me again like again i don't have i could have come home and like been absolutely besotted by that but i come home and thought you can do these big pr moments but if the product wasn't good and when i look at that collection it's not Obmuse it was like sequined dresses in the middle of July and it really taught me that a good product is gonna market itself all over again and that's when I feel like I really got into like founder content again and really just like telling the story of the brand telling the story of the products so yeah that was a that was a humbling experience have you paid influencers to wear Obmuse not yet no so like all of those moments have like you know with the exception of Well, the dinner wasn't paid, was it?

15:53Olivia Attwood:But you put them all out. It's been organic moments. Yeah. That's quite incredible, isn't it? Well, I always just said, like, I don't want to sell my brand to customers. I want to sell my brand to, like, talent as well. I want talent to love it so much that they genuinely want to wear it. And not like, oh, God, I need to wear this and post it. Yeah. They genuinely want it. Now it's like we're five years in, new people come into the business, we're growing our marketing team and they want to like test that affiliate part of the business and we absolutely will do that but yeah we've grown quite organically through people just loving the product yeah you spoke there about founder content I feel like you were very like early in this game like founder content now feels like it's something that like all the founders are trying to do yeah and it definitely has its advantages it has disadvantages challenges um how has it been for you like when when was it you decided that you were going to be more online and kind of share behind the scenes i think it just boils down to not really have any marketing knowledge like when i said i just had that 12 000 pounds yeah stock i was just like well i think it's quite quite cool that i've just decided to quit my job one day so i would like be on my instagram stories packing orders and just sort of like narrating yeah and people caught on to that really quickly because also like over covid everyone was like why the hell are you starting a business and I was like well everyone's on their phone so I'm just gonna talk to them and tell them that I'll quit my job and possibly the worst time to quit your job and start a business so that was my hook and then you got people in what's the disadvantages to sharing your story like I feel like people are always ready to criticize especially women I mean to be fair it is classic for women like everyone kind of like I had no bad experience up until probably opening our new Bond Street store and it's like we always say women can kind of like hit a ceiling and then it's like they don't like us to grow too much no yeah it's like they want you to stay in a certain box they like us on the way up and then you know when you are successful there's got to be cracks in your story and there's got so I had a bit of that last year but I think that people People, especially even other women, they don't want to see any women become too powerful.

18:01Olivia Attwood:It makes them uncomfortable. Yeah, it is other women. It is other women. It's not, we go quite hard on men, but it's actually women to women is what I've noticed. The only people that I think are like really awful and lying to me and to other people are women. Same. The only people that write horrible stories about people in the press are women. And that's something I learned last year because I've always been quite mean about men. But women can be awful. A lot of girl on girl crime out there. Yeah, there really is. So yeah, had a bit of that last year. But there's such a small group of people that they're so loud.

18:37And what I find interesting is these particular people go online as if they're experts. And there was a time where I was like really like taking it too literal and like getting really upset. And I'm like, but I, you know, I paid for a store in New York. I've paid and this is all through the success of the brand and people loving this product. So I'm like, and you know, we're with people like Selfridges. We're like the number one contemporary brand in Harvey Nichols and all these different places. And I'm like, why am I listening to you? Who don't even own anything odd news. Haven't even like bought from the brand.

19:14So yeah, it's interesting. But I think unfortunately it just, it comes, there's a lot of pros and that's one of the cons.

19:22Olivia Attwood:there was a certain time online when you know there were there's a couple of content creators who they spend their time basically trying to you know tear into people and talking about the price point versus the quality and all that stuff how do you navigate that and how do you do you ever see their point or do you think it's like you say it's pure it's negative for the sake of negative oh I've built odd muse off of constructive criticism in terms of like that the customer didn't like this product. I've always been so reactive to what customers like. So I can recognise whether someone's doing something for views or if that's the actual truth.

19:57So yeah, I can take constructive criticism, but a lot of what you see on TikTok specifically, we've actually learnt in the last six months that it's not actually a platform for us. It doesn't drive sales for us. I think it's a younger person there that shops from there. Who is your customer? so our customer has really like grown with us so she was 22 and i was 22 and now when we look it's kind of like 25 to 34 is our main audience and they're not really on tiktok the way they was in covid they've reverted back to instagram it's just yeah we don't spend a lot of time on tiktok anymore

20:34Olivia Attwood:so you you make the move to new york you were documenting it online you're going to open this store in soha you're going to move there the dogs fly out of you the whole thing and then Trump puts these tariffs in place. Literally like the week of. For someone who hasn't watched a tariff in like layman's terms how do we explain that it made everything very very expensive. So basically he put an 145 % tariff on so if you was ordering a$200 dress for Odd Muse you would then be charged 145 % which is about$300 or like on top of what you've paid. Yeah. So it's impossible. So yeah, I watched like the US part of the business like shut down overnight and that's like 40 % of my business.

21:16Olivia Attwood:That must have been, what's going through your mind when you're seeing, you're looking at those margins, you're seeing those tariffs coming, you're thinking we've just come out here, we've just opened a store. Like how scary is it? It was scary and it was really, I had like a massive shipment that I needed to get into the US and I paused it, then I didn't, then I didn't. And the New York store was empty for like two months. like you're paying rent paying rent yeah new york rent what are we talking to rent a store in soho uh ballpark don't give me you have to have exacts what do you ballpark yeah i'm always in tens of thousands a month like near to like three figures so that's sitting empty and i have a museum in soho like if you ever go there it's fucking huge i'm like why didn't i get a cute little store You went for the big basketball.

22:07I mean, yeah. Okay, so it's an expensive thing to be sitting empty. It's an expensive thing to be sitting empty 100%. And yeah, honestly, like 2025 was just hell on earth.

22:20Olivia Attwood:How do you manage your stress when you're going through a year like that? Or do you not? I don't. I have no management. It keeps you up at night. Yeah. When you've got a commercial lease like that, I've got like 60 people on my team. If this all goes down tomorrow, and I'm also all self-funded as well, that would be a bit alleviated if I did have some investment. So, yeah, it was actual hell. It's like no sleep, tears, not getting out my pyjamas until like 3 p.m., just like damage control all day. What could you really do? There's not much. Nothing. Nothing. Just wet and hope that things. Pray.

22:58Pray. But obviously we still had the UK side of the business. Yeah. We was working out. We now have a warehouse in the US, so it's fine now. Okay. But it's like, I remember every Sunday, Trump would announce something new on the Monday. So every single Sunday in New York, I was going to bed like, what's he going to say today? And it was just, oh God, it was hell, honestly. Like, I'll always reference last year.

23:24Olivia Attwood:I feel like last year was a mental year for everyone. Like, it was a very strange year, wasn't it? Yeah, I don't know anyone that had a great time. No. You, what's the status of US and the US business now? Oh, really good. It's now. Growing really well. Like domestic shipping, people can get their orders next day with no tariffs. Like it's all good. But we had to go for it to get there. Had to go for it. And now you've relocated to Dubai. Yeah. And you're enjoying like. Just enjoying like a chill side life. I do want to go back to New York. Yeah. Because I feel like that experience really ruined a place that I love so much.

23:58Olivia Attwood:Was that, because was that like a bit of a spiritual one for you? like New York had your heart. Oh I really thought I was gonna like get there and like live like my sex in the city dream and I was literally like in my pajamas every day with my eyeballs hanging out of my head refusing to leave this apartment. Yeah because I was in like prime like New York and I just would not leave my apartment so I think I'd like to redo that chapter. And actually have like make the memories that you planned on making there. Yeah I still like outside of work like me and my partner had like the most amazing year ever but it's just I spent 90 % of my time working and really stressed

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25:43Olivia Attwood:Your partner, Josh, you got engaged in, where did you? December. December. So that was, you ended a shitty year with a great thing. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about your relationship. How long have you guys been together? Ten years. Wow. A long time. You waited for that ring, girl. Yeah, I did. But we met really young. I met him when I was at 19. We started going out when we was at 19. So you've grown up together? Grown up together. And I feel like our life has almost been on pause a little bit because of odd news. I wouldn't have wanted him. He'd done it at the perfect time because at the end of last year, I was like, I'll never be this stressed again.

26:16This is the floor. I'm never getting this low again. so I think it was perfect timing but yeah on paper 10 years is a very long time but I'd say my relationship is actually one of the things I'm most proud of because it is it has been so hard like seeing like so much success it's been like so high where we've had so much fun together but then there's been loads where he like wants the same for himself so it's been like it's been hard but I'm really proud that we're like continuing to what do you mean what's the same for himself Just like he wants to be as successful. I think when you're in a relationship and the woman is more successful, it has its moments.

26:58Of course. It's quite hard to maintain because it is just so unusual and everyone comments on it. Everyone thinks it's weird. And it's like I wouldn't have Odd Muse without him. Literally, I was this timid little girl working at ASOS and it was him telling me, just do it. What's the worst? like Josh is like so fearless doesn't give a shit what people think and I'm used to be the opposite so he has really like pushed me over the years to just like do it like even what we were talking about TikTok like he thinks anyone that would go online is like you couldn't even you shouldn't even concern yourself with anyone like that so yeah I like need him for odd news like he's very important to odd news the same way I am so I just don't forget that I think it's that it's such an

27:45Olivia Attwood:interesting topic talking about power success in relationships men versus women because also actually you say it's not as usual but it's becoming more usual spoken about it's not spoken yeah and it's like a taboo and people worry about you know emasculation all this shit but like you say if you are a you are a secure man who like believes in your partner like there can be space for both of you to be the star i think that's why um like when we was living in new york especially Sometimes it's just nice to get away because what I've realised is it is a UK mentality thing. In the US, there's like wildly successful women and like, you know, men holding down the fort and it's more normal there.

28:26But yeah, in the UK, people just like, I just think they're just a bit weird with the way they think about things.

28:32Olivia Attwood:But yeah. I think we are, as a nation, we're quite judgy and we're a little bit stuck in the mud, aren't we? Yeah, I also think we're a little bit behind the times. and like we're always like five years behind the US I feel. Agree. So yeah but like I'm really proud of my relationship. And Josh is now working for the brand? No he was in New York so he was like setting up a whole US distribution but he does he renovates properties. That's what he does. Yeah. How when he was involved in the Obmuse side of things how did you guys navigate that? Did you ever fight? It was honestly fine. It was we were working on very different things.

29:08he was like way more manual and i was damage control i think he knew not to bother me about when i'm like trying to work out tariffs you talk about the fact that you rarely get a day off are you ever off i am now like this is like yeah this 2026 is really like my year guys um you're really before no never never 24 hours a day 24 hours a day even when like i'm sleeping i'm thinking about it I'm waking up at like 5am checking emails checking Shopify how have you managed to now

29:40Olivia Attwood:try and put a bit of a structure in place where you have some something that looks like balance I think 2025 went so far and it's like I actually could sit on my iPad all day and I can't control what is going on around me so like I've really just learned to just do what I can do and like you know benefit the business how I can benefit the business rather than like trying to take on you know external factors that I can't control what does time off to you look like what do you like to do when you're not working I like to do nothing I like to speak to no one oh my god you sound like me I just my just be a hermit yeah indoors indoors indoors in the dog with the dogs like I just I really just don't love talking to people do you find the the side of running a business you've got a you know you say you've got a big staff now do you find that quite are you are you an extrovert an introvert I am an introvert but I force myself to be extroverted for my job and I do I like being both but like at my core I'm indoors just on my own so that's I think odd muses made me like that though because before I used to be like before I'd muse I was like such a party girl like loved going out couldn't stay in and now i'm like i can't wait to get in bed every day but you must be knackered yeah but yeah i think it's just like at old muse i'm literally talking to like 30 people a day yeah it's a lot of very at the very minimum yeah when i get home i'm like silent and does josh know that you need quiet time at the end of the day is he what's his personality like versus josh is like he's like my sister always says it right he He's just like the fun in my life.

31:24Like he just makes me forget about like work. So yeah, I can, yeah, I kind of escaped through Josh, I think. Wedding planning? I'm just not bothered about a wedding. I think as well because of Odd Muse, I feel like I've done like the opening of the New York store and like London Fashion Week. I feel like I've done quite big events that have really stressed me out. and I just and I've been in so many situations over the last few years that have really stressed me out so I'm watching my sister go through her wedding and I'm like is this worth it? I had a great day, my sister's wedding will always be the best weekend of my life but I'm like why do people do this?

32:07This is stressful, like when my sister just did the registry, like little private room after, I was like job done, I'd do that

32:14Olivia Attwood:If I do it again ever I'm eloping, I'm never doing it again But I know my dad's got like a whole speech planned his whole life. But I think there is a way of doing something maybe in between. Yeah, I was thinking of just like letting him do a speech on my 30th and then just like eloping. I don't know. We don't know. But if we could tomorrow and wouldn't upset family, I think we'd elope. It's all just very political, isn't it? Yeah. It has to keep a lot of people happy in a wedding. Talking of family, you've spoken online about the impact, obviously, your success has had in your parents' life. Yeah.

32:45Olivia Attwood:You paid off their mortgage, buying them a car. That must be like core moments. Yeah, I think I've really like relaxed now since I paid their mortgage. Like that was like a big stress in my life. What, because you wanted to do it so much? I really wanted to do it. And I feel like I measure my success in like what I can do for my family. So like I remember I bought my mum and dad a car before I even moved out and I was like really stressed to buy them this Range Rover because my dad's always wanted a Range Rover. and yeah I just really might measure my success how much I can help them and I feel like the mortgage was like really it like that is like a whole retirement plan for them and they can just never they really don't have to worry about anything else now that their mortgage is paid off so yeah I love like seeing my dad like he barely works anymore like he's home at 2 p.m every day and that's for me is like success because without odd muse like he would still be waking up every day at 4am, coming in at 7pm.