2 Ways to Create Healthy Boundaries & Why You're Wasting Your Time Trying to Change How Someone Thinks of You

26:59And that's why Jim Carrey puts it best. And I'm paraphrasing. He says, everyone in the world should achieve everything they've ever wanted and accomplish everything they've ever pursued just to realize that it's not the point. Now that doesn't mean the monk mindset is not about not pursuing your goals. It's actually about pursuing your truest goals, your truest self, and your most authentic aligned goals. So it's not about not having goals. It's about making sure that your goals are actually yours.

27:37pull to grow in your career or make a bigger impact, Walden is designed exactly for that. For over 50 years, they've helped working adults get the W with the knowledge, confidence and real skills to create meaningful change. What makes Walden stand out is how flexible it is. With Walden's tempo learning, you're in control. No set weekly deadlines, no rigid schedules, just a pace that actually fits your life. And everything you learn is practical. You're working through real world scenarios That prepare you to make a positive difference In your community and beyond You're also guided by faculty Who've lived the work themselves Scholars and practitioners With real experience This is the kind of opportunity that reminds you It's never too late to go after What you want If you've been waiting for the right moment This is it Head to waldenu.edu and take that first step Walden University Set a course for change Certified to operate by Chev Radhi, you know how much we value mindful living and personal growth?

28:43But finding the perfect gift that reflects that can be tough That's why I really love Apple Gift Card It's not just a present, it's an investment in their well-being They can use it to subscribe to their favorite wellness apps from the App Store by inspiring e-books from Apple Books or even upgrade their AirPods It's the gift of choice, allowing them to curate their own path to happiness and fulfillment. Plus, it's super convenient. Send it instantly by email or pick one up while you're out. Give the gift of mindful living. Visit applegiftcard.apple.com to learn more and gift with purpose today.

29:19Yeah, and you know, I get shivers when you say that Cooley quote. Oh, me too, man. And I think I've had a flashback. Support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University. If you're listening right now and feeling that pull to grow in your career or make a bigger impact, Walden is designed exactly for that. For over 50 years, they've helped working adults get the W with the knowledge, confidence and real skills to create meaningful change. What makes Walden stand out is how flexible it is. With Walden's tempo learning, you're in control. No set weekly deadlines, no rigid schedules, just a pace that actually fits your life.

30:01and everything you learn is practical. You're working through real world scenarios that prepare you to make a positive difference in your community and beyond. You're also guided by faculty who've lived the work themselves, scholars and practitioners with real experience. This is the kind of opportunity that reminds you it's never too late to go after what you want. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it. Head to waldenu.edu and take that first step. Walden University, set a course for change. Certified to operate by Chev. One thing I've been reflecting on lately is how even the smallest choices can create a big impact over time.

30:45Whether it's choosing to spend a quiet night in to recharge, or making a decision that brings you closer to a long-term goal, those moments of intention really matter. And when it comes to the choices we make with our money, that same mindset applies. I've learned that saving for the things that truly matter like your first home or a reliable car starts with small, thoughtful decisions That's why I appreciate what State Farm is doing with their personal price plan It gives you the power to personalize your plan and create an affordable price that works for your life You can bundle your home and auto insurance in a way that supports your journey and your goals Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan.

31:31Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state, coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. I think, I can't say for sure where I was when I heard that interview, but I think I was on a train from Manchester to London or London back to Manchester. And I think I pressed pause and I think I wrote it in my notes. I think I'm pretty sure I wrote it and I rewound it. I played it again. I thought, hold on. I've got the first part, the second part. What's that third part? And I really had to sit with it for a while.

32:10And I would urge people if they need to press pause right now, listen to it and really think about it. And I think, you know, it's really interesting, you know, hearing that. And I reflect on my children who I know you had a very brief, lovely conversation with just before we started. I might put that in at the end of the podcast. Please do. It was beautiful. But I think about this as they go through school and, you know, they start to see what other people have got. And, you know, we, my wife and I, we're very keen to try and not put value on those things because I know I also had experiences like that.

32:52What I'd say, oh God, man, they're wearing those I want to wear those because if I wear them, I'm going to be happy. I saw maybe a year ago or so, I saw a Gary Vaynerchuk video online when he was telling someone at one of his conferences, he was talking about a BMW and he basically said to the guy in his inimitable way, which is wonderful, that I think you own a BMW because of what other people will think of you when you drive that BMW. you. And the guy literally, you know, in that clip, he just sort of sat with it and he said, yeah, I do. I mean, it's what it symbolized is to the people around him.

33:34And again, I'm not having a go at anyone who might be doing that. You know, we all do things at times to get that validation or what we think is a validation from people around them. But I think what you're trying to get at is how do we find our own identity? How do we live our own lives? So Jay, how do we do that? If we've spent a lifetime living someone else's life, how do we in our 30s or our 20s or our 40s or our 50s, how do we just decide, oh, I'm going to start finding out what my life is? Yes, absolutely. And I love the tone you're sharing this in Rangan because my tone's the same. I'm not coming at this from a point, a view of, you know, we're wasting our lives or I've got it figured out.

34:22Like I don't want to make this about you not getting your goals or not having pursuits or not wanting to become something because I want to do all those things too. But it's about why you're doing it. And it's also about making sure they're truly motivated by your inner desire, right? Like that's the point. It's like, if you want to drive a BMW, drive a BMW because that's the car you love. Don't drive it Because you think. If you want to be a doctor, become a doctor because you think that's how you're going to serve humanity, not because you think people will be impressed. If you want to go to Harvard or Princeton or Oxford or Cambridge, go there because you really want to study how to solve the world's problems, not because you think it looks good on your resume, right?

35:04That's the point that we're going after. So thank you, Rangan, for like re-centering that tonal piece. And I appreciate it. So where do we start? one of my favorite ways to start is looking at what we value. And values are a very intangible word. And so there's a very easy way to figure out what you value. There's two things you have to look at. You look at how you spend your money, the most painful thing you can possibly do, go through your bank statement and look at where your money is being spent. That is what you value. The other thing that we spend, just like we spend money, is how we spend our time.

35:44Those are the two most perfect ways to see what you currently value. Your value isn't what's in your head, isn't what's in your heart, isn't what's in your mind. It's how you spend your money and how you spend your time. And so just to give you an overview, and I share this in the book, that research was done on how we spend our time. And the research showed that we spent 33 years in bed, right? 33 years of our life in bed. And seven years of that is spent trying to sleep, not even sleeping, right? We spend one year and four months exercising across our whole lives, these are, by the way. We spend more than three years on vacation.

36:24And we spend a bunch of days trying to get ready. And we spend a bunch of time, you know, standing in lines and queues. and so much of our time just gets spent. So the question we have to ask ourselves is, where am I currently spending my time and where do I want to spend it? Now, studies also show that people, everyone has to go to work. So this isn't about what you do for work. People who had more meaningful, purposeful lives and were healthier, wealthier, and wise invest their time in education over entertainment. And Rangan, your audience is lucky because they get education and entertainment in one place, but that's the goal, right?

37:05That's the goal, that you're creating an opportunity for people to find education. The smartest, the wealthiest, the most healthiest, the wisest people in the world were reading books, watching documentaries, taking courses, listening to podcasts, learning to better themselves. And so that's the first place to start. The second place, when we look at that value audit, is I want you to write down three things that you're currently pursuing in life. It might be a promotion, it might be a new home, whatever it is, whatever it is that you are currently pursuing. And then I want you to ask this question.

37:41Is that your desire and your dream or is it coming from something outside of you? Is it coming from a pressure of a family member? Is it coming from an expectation because your friend just bought something? Where is that desire truly coming from? And the third and final question you want to ask yourself is, do I still want to pursue that or do I want to change how I pursue it or do I not want to pursue it at all? And if you go through that three-step questioning process, you'll get to the truth of what you truly want to pursue and stop yourselves from building a sandcastle which the waves of time will eventually wash away and so that's what we get lost doing we get lost building castles that we don't even want to live in yeah it's so profound and you know i really think that there's something unique about the times in which we live now there really is this dissatisfaction this lack of contentment you know you put it so beautifully at the start of this conversation.

38:45I don't know if you've seen the documentary Minimalism. I haven't actually, no. Or not, which I think you'd absolutely love it. I really, really enjoy it. I've seen it a couple of times. I've watched it with my kids again recently. But again, it's these two guys in their 30s who, you know, they've got success by society's definition. They've got the job, they're earning good money, you know, but there's a hole inside. There's a feeling of, is this all there is to life? And so I really think you're tapping on something that is really out there at the moment. And really, if people can get their heads around this, I think it can transform their own lives, but also transform the lives of the people around them, which I think is really, really exciting.

39:27Now, you called it a value audit. And I thought that word was really interesting because I had nearly three weeks off social media until two days ago. I didn't post, I went off, I made a thing of it. And I found it a lot easier to go inward in my life. It was just one thing to switch off a bit of noise for me. I'm not saying everyone has to do this, it's just something I personally find useful. And I also like to, I think it's a nice example to set to people that you can do it if you want to. But what was really interesting is I've been doing a values exercise with myself. I've been trying to write down five core values that I want to live my life by.

40:14And it really struck me that a lot of people, and I'll probably include myself in this, have got an idea of what we think our values are. But unless we actually go and audit the process of what are we spending our time and money doing, we have no idea if we really are living those values. So I really like the term audit because it's not your perception of how you think you're actually spending your money or spending your time. It's the reality of it. And I think it's something that I haven't done it. And I think I'm going to do it. I think I'm going to actually see, is it aligned with what you say you stand for?

40:53Are you actually spending time like that. So is this a common thing, do you think, for people that there is a gap between their desired values and their actual values? I genuinely believe, first of all, Rangan, thank you for sharing that too. And I genuinely believe that people are well-intentioned and want to do good in the world. I believe that. I believe that people have a good heart. They're smarter than we think they are. They want to do good in the world and they want to put out good energy. but you're exactly right that that intention needs to be converted and transferred into real behavior and this is where you'll find you know you'll hear a friend or someone you know say oh you know i really value loyalty and and i really don't like gossip and then you find out that that person was gossiping about you and how does that feel it completely feels like someone's broken your trust.

41:46And so often the way we see ourselves or want to see ourselves is amplified compared to how we actually behave. So we'll spot something. And there's a beautiful story that I share in the book, and there's lots of these across the book, but there's these old ancient Indian and Zen stories. And there's a story of the evil king that goes to meet a good king. So the evil king goes to the castle, the quarters of the good king. And the good king, being a good king, invites the evil king inside for some dinner. They sit down. The servers bring out the plates. The plates are placed in front of the evil king and the good king.

42:26And they're just about to eat. And as just about as they're about to eat, the evil king switches the plates. And the good king goes, what's going on? Is that some ceremony in your time? Why are we doing this? And the evil king goes, well, I don't know. You might have poisoned my food. You might be trying to kill me. You might have poisoned it. And the good king just bursts out laughing. He's just like, really? Come on. I've invited you over for dinner. This is my team. Whatever it is. Let's start eating right now. And just as he's about to eat, the evil king swaps it back again. And the good king goes, well, now what then?

43:07And he goes, well, I don't know. you might be double bluffing me. And that night, the evil king doesn't eat. The good king happily eats his plate. The point is that so often we think we don't have some of the mistakes that we make, but we see them in everyone else. We see those mistakes in other people. So we'll say, oh, this person's not doing this right, or I don't like the way he or she talked to that person. But if we really do an audit in ourselves, we'll realize that we have a lot of those same challenges and feelings that we may think others have. And so for me, it's sometimes a really scary and daunting task to do that values audit, but it truly, truly is a beautiful process that we all need to go through to really realign our map and get our compass right and start moving in the right direction.

43:57I mean, is it the sort of thing that people do once, or is it the sort of thing that people should revisit. And I guess, you know, if I was to ask you, when was the last time you did that exercise on yourself? Yeah, great question. So I'd say that you have to revisit like gardening. If you look at your garden outside, and I can see a bit, I can see a light little glimpse of Rangan's garden. But if you have a garden, how often do you have to garden? Maybe you mow the lawn, I don't know, once a week, once a month, I don't know, you know, whatever, whatever you... Yeah, I'd say once a week. I like a nice, you know, shortish lawn.

44:33I don't like it when it gets too long. So there you go, once a week. And so I'd say that you have to treat this exercise like gardening because when you do a values audit, what you're really doing is gardening your values. And what that means is you're pulling out the weeds and you're planting new seeds. That's really the activity that's happening here. You're planting seeds in your mind, values that are good values that are going to grow into fruits and trees and give shade to others and help other people. Or if you don't garden once a month, let's say Rangan leaves his, he doesn't bother for the last six months during COVID.

45:09He just lets it be there. What's going to happen? That garden is going to be full of weeds. It's going to be full of stuff that he doesn't want there, right? It might attract bugs or other things that are there that he doesn't want. And that's what happens with our values, that after a while, our values start to attract dust. They start to attract being covered over by so many other desires. So I would say it's a regular habit. I'd say that I do a refining values and intention exercise on myself about three times a week. I used to do it every day, but probably about three times a week. And I'm not saying anyone has to do it that often.

45:44I do it that often because I feel I live a life that is constantly moving, constantly challenging. And I'm presented with a lot of options and opportunities that I never imagined I'd have. And so I have to really train my mind to focus on these value audits. But I also know that every year I spend two or three weeks and I go back to the monastery in India and I spend time in the ashram with monks. And so I feel this is both an activity that happens weekly or monthly. I'd say once a month, I'd say the best way is to treat it like your accounts and your taxes. Look at it every month, look at your bank statement every month.

46:20And then once a year, when you have to do your taxes and you're going through that tax return and getting it all right, you kind of do a deep dive on it. So I'd say if everyone could spend three days a year, five days a year going really deep, and then one hour a month, a couple of hours a month, that would be a great way to build it into your practice. Yeah. Now I just want to contrast it with taxes and accounts, which can often be quite tedious and, you know, tear your hair out type exercises for people full of pressure. I would sort of say that the kind of practices that your book is jam-packed full of practical tools for people, once you get into this way of thinking, once you start thinking like a monk, these practices become fun, right?

47:11Yes, yeah, for sure. You know, like a lot of, you know, as a doctor, one of the things that frustrates me is that everything around health, let's say working out, for example, tends to be around, you know, punishing yourself and pushing yourself and suffering. And so we start to associate things that are good for us as being difficult and as being punishing. but actually all the tools in your book are going to be good for everyone they're really going to help people but i would actually say that they're fun and if i just speak to my own experience over the last seven years of really again since my dad died diving into personal growth not because it was like oh dad's not here now i'm going to do some personal growth no it was just in the trauma of dad's death in the sort of emptiness I felt afterwards, that's where I went.

48:06I sort of needed that pain on one level to then get me to start asking questions. But I love the process of getting to know myself better. I love doing these audits. I love trying to figure out my values. I like potentially almost getting addicted to it. Like it feels good. And then you start to, I feel you start to switch off from the noise around you and you really start to become tuned in to who you are and what makes you tick. Learning about ourselves is actually the most fun thing in the world. It's the most enjoyable thing in the world. When you find out about a new way that your mind works and how this value is going to unlock this opportunity in your life, Rangan's spot on.

48:49It's such an exciting thing to do. And I would encourage you to make it fun. So I'll tell you an example of some of the fun activities that I love in the book. So one of my favorite ones is I sometimes set myself the challenge of not comparing, not complaining, and not criticizing. And the way I like to do this test is I keep a jar of post-it notes of every time I compare, complain, or criticize, I'll put it in there. And then I have another jar of every time I'm collaborative, supportive to others, and grateful. And what I love doing is almost doing a competition with myself because I love being competitive too.

49:30I love engaging that in a competition with myself of how often can I make sure. So what you find is the first day you realize, oh no, I complained 10 times today. The second day you're like, oh, I only did seven times today. And the third day you're like, I only did four. And the fourth day you're like, oh, only once. And then on the weekend you binge complain again and it all goes up again. But the point is that you make it fun and enjoyable because what you understand is that you are not your criticism. You are not these negative thoughts. You are not these negative beliefs. They've just become conditioned and habits just as your garden is not weeds.

50:06And what happens is we start thinking that we are our pain. We start thinking that we are stress, right? We say things like, I am just a stressful person, right? I am just a negative person. And the truth is you're not. You're just going through a negative space and time. You're just adopted a negative habit or a negative thought, but you are not a negative person. It's just in the same ways, you are not unhealthy. You've just adopted unhealthy habits. And I think when you start making that disconnect between you and the habits you have, you start to realize, oh, if I change the habits, I naturally change.

50:47But you are separate from that. So never get into that rhetoric with yourself of I am a negative person or I am a failure or I am a loser or whatever it may be. Yeah, I think it's so important that, Jay, that our thoughts are important, our words are important. And I think many people, once you become tuned into it, when you start to identify where you're using negative self-talk, it becomes so easy to identify everyone around you. You know, it's something that I spent a lot of time thinking about, both for myself personally, for bringing up my children. It's something we talk about a lot at the dinner table, about how we're saying things because words are powerful.

51:36You know, words become thoughts, right? And they sort of can, you know, you mentioned those things. People often do think that they are their pain, they are their feelings without realizing that these things are transient. They come and go, and you are actually separate from that. But if you define yourself by that, it becomes very hard to change. You know, you mentioned, you know, I guess a lot of words that people who have a victim mindset may say. And I want to explore this because I want to be super clear. I think one thing I love about your approach, and certainly the approach that I sort of try and take, is one of compassion.

52:15It's not one of judgment of other people. It's understanding if someone behaves in a certain way. There's probably conditioning or reasons that has led to that. So when I say victim mindset, I really don't mean that in a demeaning way. I mean that in a, a lot of people say, oh, this always happens to me. Oh God, you know, I never get that promotion. Right. And so the way we think and the way we talk, how influential is our childhood? And, you know, what can we do about it if we've spent a lifetime practicing that? Yeah. What a great, what a great way of guiding this conversation into because I think you're spot on that the words we use create all of our reality, right?

53:02We all experience that. We know that. And there's a few things that I want to touch on here, actually. One is the understanding there's a Harvard study that I refer to in my book and it's called the emotional list or list of emotions, but I call it emotional vocabulary. And what I realized is that we all have a very limited emotional vocabulary. For example, if you ask someone how things are going, there's literally five words that we use more often than anything else. Okay, good, bad, fine, hmm. So someone goes, how's your day going? Okay. How's your week been? Good. Is everything going well?

53:45Hmm, right? It's like literally like those are our responses. And what this Harvard emotional vocabulary list does is that it shows you that inside every word that you say, there are so many more meanings. So let's take the word sad, for example. And what it does is it shows you other feelings of sadness that help you better pinpoint how you actually feel. So the question then is, do you feel sad or do you feel offended? Do you feel upset? Do you feel disappointed? Do you feel irritated? Do you feel like you've been let down? The challenge is that we don't diagnose how we feel effectively. Therefore, we can't articulate and communicate to the people we love effectively about how we feel.

54:31And therefore, we don't get what we expect from others. And so we almost create, and Rangan, you probably see this all the time. Imagine someone tries to diagnose their health condition without seeing a doctor. It becomes really, really challenging. And the challenging with the mind is sometimes you have to diagnose your own feelings because you can't just walk in to a doctor's office and expect them to do it because it's a little more intangible. So we have to get much better at understanding and articulating ourselves and diagnosing our challenges and what we experience. But when you spoke about childhood there, I thought that was a really important point because literally there are so many studies that show that our belief in ourselves, our desire for love, our understanding of ourselves is formed in our childhood.

55:21So recently I recorded an episode about the psychological concept of the three attachment styles, or there are four, but the three prominent attachment styles that people experience in relationships. And they are avoidant, secure, and anxious. So all of us either have an avoidant relationship attachment style, we have a secure attachment style, or we have an anxious attachment style. And I'll explain what they are. If your parents were avoidant of you, if they didn't give you attention, if they didn't give you presence and intimacy, then you often will crave that from your partner. So what you want from your partner is exactly what you did or didn't receive from your parents.

56:11So sometimes you receive something from your parents and now you demand it from your partner. And sometimes you didn't receive something from your parents and you demand that from your partner. The secure attachment style is when your parents or one of your parents or a father or mother figure in your life gave you substantial amounts of love so you feel secure, so you trust your partner naturally. And the third and final is anxious. That's when your parents were kind of there, kind of not there, kind of let you down, sometimes were there. You were confused about their love approach to you and therefore now you have this anxiousness around your partner and you're not sure whether they love you or not.

56:50Now notice how all of that comes from our conditioning at childhood. And so the first step we have to do is we have to be aware of this, right? No one's ever been taught about this in school. I saw so many negative patterns that I'd adopted from my childhood that I was projecting into my relationship. And by the way, I don't blame my parents or anyone's parents for any of this. I think the point is no one ever knows how to be a parent and what they're doing and everyone makes mistakes. So this isn't about questioning your parents or being bitter towards them. It's about developing the emotional skills your parents didn't have.

57:27And that first of all requires awareness. Are you even aware of what patterns you've adopted from your parents that you like or don't like? Do you behave in certain irrational ways? And when you think about it, you're like, that's exactly how my dad used to talk to me. Or that's exactly how my mom used to talk to me. I often talk about a positive thing. So I love surprises. I love surprises like for gifts and birthdays and events. And the reason is my mom always surprised me with the toy I most wanted on my birthday every year growing up. So when I met my wife, without explaining this to her, I expected her to know that and she would never surprise me because it wasn't in her parental background.

58:13So I used to feel on my birthdays when we first met that she didn't love me. And I know this sounds crazy, but it's literally true. It's like, I literally felt like she didn't care about me. But that's because I never understood why I like surprises, where that came from, and I never communicated that to her. Does that make sense, Rang? Hey, more sense than you would know for sure. I mean, you know, I can think back to my own relationship and think to all kinds of ways that actually, and I recently spoke to Esther Perel on the show and you know really sort of opened up about a lot of those things and I think the thing I'm sort of I'm hearing from you telling that story and when I think about my own relationship it's that we often have expectations because we're used to things a certain way so we think that's the norm but of course someone else has got their own idea of what is normal.

59:12And, you know, we've explored this ourselves. And I think as your communication gets better, as you learn, as you said, to have a vocabulary around these things, as you learn to be able to articulate them, suddenly there's understanding on both sides. And a lot of that friction no longer arises because you can communicate. And I guess now your wife will go, oh, you know, Jay likes gifts. You know, even though that's not my thing, for example, it's kind of like, oh, maybe I'll get him again. Cause that's how he experiences love. My wife organized two surprise parties for me in the last two years.

59:48And she got me both times. Like she, she organized these two incredible, and that's what it is wrong. And like, that's what it is, is that we're just, you know, in every relationship, you have the ability to set the level of joy you expect and the level of pain you'll accept. But the problem is that we never tell the other person what that expectation and what that acceptance level is. And we never communicate that and we expect them to be mind readers and expect them to know. And that's really where all of relationships go wrong with our parents, our children, our spouses, our partners, that there is no communication on what we expect and what we're willing to accept.

1:00:33And that creates so many issues that you then think you broke up over something big when actually you broke up over words and definitions. One of the ones I like to talk about is the definition of love. Think about the first time you said, I love you to someone, Rangan. Think about the first time you said it to someone and everyone who's listening and watching, think about the first time you told someone you loved them. What did you mean? Did you mean I really like you? Did you mean I hope we can spend the night together? Did you mean I want to spend the rest of my life with you? I'm guessing that you meant different things at different times.

1:01:10And now think about when someone says, I love you back to you. Have you ever asked them what they meant by that? Because chances are you projected your belief onto the word love, even when someone said, I love you back. So if you said, I love you, and you were thinking, I want to spend the rest of my life with you. And that person said, I love you, you projected that they were saying they want to spend the rest of their lives with you as well. But actually what they were saying was they just want to spend the night with you. And now all of a sudden you're in this complete misalignment of values.

1:01:43And we end up in those scenarios because families define words differently. People define words differently. And different words mean different things to different people at different times. And so you really have to understand how that person described even being clean and tidy and organized. Everyone has a different definition. My room may seem clean to some people and my room may seem chaotic to some people because everyone has a different definition of what clean and chaotic is. Support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University. If you're listening right now and feeling that pull to grow in your career or make a bigger impact, Walden is designed exactly for that.

1:02:26For over 50 years, they've helped working adults get the W with the knowledge, confidence and real skills to create meaningful change. What makes Walden stand out is how flexible it is. With Walden's tempo learning, you're in control. No set weekly deadlines, no rigid schedules, just a pace that actually fits your life. And everything you learn is practical. You're working through real-world scenarios that prepare you to make a positive difference in your community and beyond. You're also guided by faculty who've lived the work themselves, scholars and practitioners with real experience. This is the kind of opportunity that reminds you it's never too late to go after what you want.

1:03:07If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it. Head to waldenu.edu and take that first step. Walden University, set a course for change. certified to operate by Chev. One thing I've been reflecting on lately is how even the smallest choices can create a big impact over time. Whether it's choosing to spend a quiet night in to recharge or making a decision that brings you closer to a long-term goal, those moments of intention really matter. And when it comes to the choices we make with our money, that same mindset applies. I've learned that saving for the things that truly matter, like your first home or a reliable car starts with small, thoughtful decisions.

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1:04:32And, you know, certainly the contentment that my wife and I feel in our relationship has improved dramatically since communication got better. and it was you know really interesting you know one of the most amazing things since getting married has been getting to know my wife's family who are just amazing incredible and the more time you spend with them the more you understand how vid my wife has got her characteristics you're like oh of course that's how you've been brought up I wasn't brought up like that right I had a completely different upbringing so my idea of what is normal is completely different from yours and if we both go through life in our own heads thinking this is normal, well, of course, there's going to be blow ups and friction because they both are normal, but they're different normals to different people.

1:05:27You know, as you sort of talk about relationship, you reminded me of a moment in your book where you spoke about your relationship with your now wife when you first started dating her. And I think you took her out to, I think you saved up. Well, you can share that actually, what happens. And I'll tell you the reason why it made me stop and laugh is because it reminded me, although there were different scenarios, I remember when I first met my now wife, when I went out, when I was just dating her for a few months, um i remember like so i'd played in bands for a few years and i at the time one of my uh solo way eps was being sold in hmv in manchester and had a couple of shows and i think when we first started dating she came along and then i can't remember when but a few weeks or a few months and so i said you know hey babe i've got the show tonight do you want to you know do you fancy come along and so no i'm good thanks i was like oh no you sure you sure you don't want to come she's like yeah i'm all right actually there's something on telly i want to watch tonight or something something which was you know for my ego at that time back in the day i was like oh why does she want to come you know does she not like me you know what what you know it was really interesting but i think that drew me more towards her because i thought i've never had that before like that was i think that made me more attracted to her it's like oh she's not bothered about that stuff and i actually genuinely do would say now that's one of the best things about her, that kind of stuff.

1:07:01She does not give to who. She likes me and loves me for who I am underneath and not for the kind of, you know, not because, you know, I'm on telly or I've, you know, whatever with these books or whatever, you know, she's not bothered about that stuff at all. And it's the best thing ever. Yeah. And that's such a, you know, it's such a blessing to have that in your life, Ranga, because, you know, you meet people at different times and people meet the love of their life at different times and it can get really challenging. You reminded me of an interview that I think I refer to even in the book of Robert Downey Jr.

1:07:33And I think he's at Cambridge University and they're doing a Q &A with him. And they're like, you know, what does it feel like to be Iron Man and, you know, be this incredible movie star in the Avengers? And he's like, yeah, you know, when I come home and I open the door back from work, it's not like my kids in my family are like, oh my God, it's Iron Man. You know, he's just like, my wife's like, can you take the trash out? And, you know, do my, and it's almost like that reality check. And yeah, for my wife in similar what you were saying, you know, for us, it was this understanding that I had believed that the romance that I saw in the movies was what romance and love was about.

1:08:12Because again, how many of us are, our beliefs are set by movies, media, and music. So many of our beliefs and what we expect in a relationship are based on a false show. And if you think about it, movies always end with happily ever after where the wedding just happened. So it's almost like you see nothing after the wedding. And the funny thing is that after the wedding is exactly what life is about. Like that's where life actually starts. Like this life didn't start when you started dating, but movies end with happily ever after and they don't tell the story. And so we all have this honeymoon, happily ever after version of love.

1:08:50And I had that too. So So my first date with my wife, I thought, oh, you know, she'll want to go to a fancy restaurant. You know, she'll probably want to dress up. She'll want to do this because that's what I thought from nowhere. Like she'd given me no indication of that. And so again, no checking of expectation, no checking of communication, just complete me on autopilot. And so I booked, I got this reservation at this fancy restaurant. I'll never forget the name. It's called La Canda Locatelli. And it's like this really posh restaurant in London. And it's like David Beckham goes there and that kind of thing.

1:09:21And so I'd saved up to take my wife to this restaurant. And she, it was the worst date we've ever been on. And it was our first date. And she was just like, you could have walked me down Tesco's, like the food aisle at Tesco's. And I would have been happier. She loves, she loves, she loves going shopping for food. So any sort of Tesco's or Whole Foods or Waitrose or whatever that, she loves it. And so, and it was so interesting to me to think, I was like, well, I put all this effort in and that's what happens. you start thinking your ego goes well you put all this effort in she doesn't appreciate it and actually realize no it's just you know me speaking to her in a language she doesn't understand and and this part's the biggest part about how media and i've got to share this story so rangan do you remember how much do you remember any guidance on how much you spent on your engagement ring because this is really like profound for me but do you remember anything when you proposed to your wife yeah i you know what i can't remember an exact amount but i remember thinking, oh, how much are you meant to?

1:10:19And I thought, really that much? I can't remember what happened in the end, but I know that's out there, isn't it? There's a rule by society on what you should do. Yeah. So that was the thing. So I remember wanting to propose to my now wife and I remember speaking to a bunch of my guy mates who were proposed or were married. And they all said, you spend two months salary on your engagement ring. I was like, that sounds like a lot. I had the same reaction as you. And I was like, okay, that's what you have to spend. So I remember spending two months salary on my engagement ring for my wife. I didn't make a ton at the time and I worked in a corporate job.

1:10:56And so I did that. And then when I started sharing more ideas and stuff, I really started looking into that. And this is the craziest thing. I found a De Beers commercial from 1991. And in that commercial, it's a black and white commercial. I don't know why, but it was chosen to be black and white. And in that commercial, a man proposes to a woman with a diamond engagement ring. It's a De Beers commercial. And at the end of it, it says this, catch this. This is what it says. It says the diamond engagement ring. how else could two months salary last forever? And I was sitting there going, are you kidding me?

1:11:40That that was literally the tagline in a commercial. And so many men took it seriously that by the time I proposed, that was 1991, I proposed in 2014. And so it's like from 1991 to 2014, it became a rule when actually it was just a tagline in an advert, just showing you the power of media's ability to implant. And really that's inception at its best. If you've never seen the movie Inception, check it out. But that is literally inception at its best, that that idea was planted in our mind in 1991. And in 2014, I'm still operating by that idea. And I don't even know where it's come from. That's the power of an idea.

1:12:23And that's why it's so important that we plant powerful ideas into our mind that are useful to us. And that's the value and how powerful stories are and narrative, even stories that we tell ourselves. So that then starts with us, maybe the idea of one advertising executive in a company somewhere who gets paid to do this commercial does it. And then it becomes a reality for millions of people around the world who are then a stressed out trying to think, oh, if I'm going to be a real man, I have to spend two months salary on this ring. And it goes back to everything you're talking about. It's about identity, it's about stories, it's about how can we start creating the stories that are going to start to help us, you know, going to nourish us and feed us rather than the ones that are going to keep us trapped and imprisoned.

1:13:16And I think there's two things I think your book really, like when I think about it, big picture, what it offers, I mean, there's so many things, but the two themes I really think about are one, awareness. I think every single chapter, people are going to start thinking, and let's just start going to, because you've shared so many lovely stories as well in it, which I think really brings it to life. People are going to start to see their own life in them. And I think you're going to help bring awareness to people. And of course, without awareness, there can be no change. Awareness is that first step.

1:13:50And often awareness is all you need, I find sometimes. And of course, there are lots of practices you can do to help, but sometimes just being aware means, oh, I can change that now, because I know where that's coming from. But the other thing I think your book offers people is freedom because you get true inner peace and mental freedom to live the life that you want to, not the life that other people have set out for you or an advertising exec has sort of implanted as an idea. And then, you know, if we sort of start to go in some of these practical tools, you mentioned some exercises already.

1:14:26You mentioned gratitude and gratitude has come up on the show before, but what I loved about your take on it was, if I remember the chapter rightly, you said, gratitude is a daily practice. That's the easy part. I want you to be grateful in every aspect of your life. And I love that. And I've been sitting with the idea for the last week or so. What if you could expand on it, Jay? Yeah, beautiful. I'm really glad you're asking me about gratitude. Before we do that though, you sparked another thought. Do you mind if I kind of go back, if you're okay with it. Go where you want to go, man. You're sparking so many great thoughts in my mind.

1:15:02I can't ignore them. You're such a great interviewer. It's so much fun. I really feel like we've gone in so many directions that I didn't even plan. So thank you so much. But when you were talking about the stories we tell ourselves, I think that's so important because there's a great study that I talk about in the book by Amy Brzezniuski from the Yale University. And what they found is that they tried to find a career that they felt people may find not sharing a positive story around. And they found that hospital cleaners or hospital workers potentially have one of the toughest jobs. And Rangan, you're a doctor and I'm sure you've seen people having to do that work and it's a tough job.

1:15:46And so they asked hospital workers how they define their jobs. And the majority of them defined it as low-skilled, defined it as insignificant, defined it as just a way to pay the bills and that their job wasn't useful or their job wasn't important. And their role was basically described like the personnel manual. But then they asked another set of hospital workers, the same people who did the same jobs, different people who did the same jobs. And they said, how do you feel about your jobs? and these people had completely different views they felt they were healers they felt they were caretakers they felt that they were able to transform the energy of the actual hospital they felt that they were carers for the people there and what they found is that these same people sorry different people who did the same job were telling themselves a different story and therefore they saw their role as integral to the healing of the patient.

1:16:46And because they saw their role as integral to the healing of the patient, they found the work that they did to be extremely meaningful. And that's crazy to think about it, that different people doing the same job could say different things about the same work. They're doing the same exact thing daily, but someone thinks it's meaningless and the other thinks it's so meaningful. And this was a term by Yale that was called job crafting. The ability to assign meaning where you see it and all of a sudden your life becomes meaningful. So if you're sitting in a job right now that you hate, or if you've got a boss that you really don't like, or if you're in a relationship that you don't want to be in, if you can't leave for whatever reason right now because of COVID or lockdown or whatever it is, financial difficulties, if you can't leave and you really want to, One of the things I recommend you do is called job crafting from the Yale School of Management.

1:17:41You start asking yourself, where can I find meaning in this? What can I learn? What can I adopt? What is this trying to teach me? And that's actually where gratitude can be applied to every place because you start going, there is some value in this. I remember when I wanted to leave my corporate job and I wanted to live my passion and do what I do today, but I'm so grateful I was at my corporate job because I learned so much there that is so useful to me now and we find it very easy to be grateful when things are going our way but we find it very difficult to be grateful when things are not going our way but what we have to learn to realize which is a really hard lesson to realize is that things are always going your way if you're moving in the right direction things are not going to always look like they're going your way and they could still be going your way.

1:18:32We've all seen curses turn into gifts and gifts turn into curses. But the problem is, and this is the challenge, we have a projector up here of what we want life to look like. And then we have the reality of what life actually looks like. So there's this big discrepancy. And so sometimes you're actually going in the right direction, but because it doesn't look like your picture and your image of what it should look like, you work less, you become lazier, you become complacent, you try less harder, but this doesn't look like the right direction. But you'll get to where you want in life, just not in the way you imagined it, if you keep going, if you keep pushing, if you keep learning.

1:19:11And that's what it means to be grateful in all areas of your life, is trying to, even in the toughest moment, even in a challenging situation, not gratitude, like, oh, I'm so thankful to you for causing me the pain. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is saying to yourself, where is there meaning in this? Where is the lesson in this? So I don't repeat this again. If I can be grateful in this challenging situation and I can experience gratitude at all times, then I'm always going to be coming at things from a positive space and positive energy. Yeah. So powerful, Jay. Would you recommend people start off with a particular daily practice as a way of getting good and developing the skill before they can start applying it, let's say, to aspects of their life that maybe aren't going as well as they want to, where they have to reframe things.

1:20:04What has been your experience in trying to teach people about gratitude and how they should start that process? You always develop your muscles in the training center and in the gym. You don't go out and develop your muscles on game day. No one gets thrown out onto the pitch and says, oh yeah, go and play a World Cup final and you'll figure out how strong you are. You'd never do that. You train in the gym, you prepare, you get ready, and then you go. You don't go, I want to learn how to run. Maybe I should run in the marathon next year. That's not how it works. And so Rangan's absolutely right that it starts in small bouts.

1:20:34So I want to get more practical because me and Rangan have spoken about a lot of concepts today. When we talk about practicing thankfulness or gratitude, and I talk about four habits in the book, one of them, one of the key daily habits or daily practices is thankfulness. Now, thankfulness isn't just about feeling. Thankfulness isn't just about thinking. It's actually about expressing. So when Rangan messaged me a few weeks back and he told me that he'd been reading my book, I sent him an early copy because he was gonna interview me on the podcast and he sent me that message, I was so grateful to him, like genuinely, because he was expressing gratitude to me and that's the amazing thing.

1:21:12Instead of just feeling gratitude, let's say Rangan felt it, but he didn't say it to me. If he didn't say it to me, he would have not had the experience, A, of sharing it, B, of receiving my gratitude back to him and our relationship deepening based on that simple message he sent me. And so gratitude becomes more powerful when you express it daily. So every day ask yourself, who's a person that you want to express gratitude to and go and tell them? Secondly, what's a place that you're grateful for and spend more time in that place? And what's a project that you're grateful for in your life? and if you write these down every single day before you go to bed who's a person i'm grateful for and why what's a place that i'm grateful for and why and right now it may not be a place you can go to maybe a place that you visited and you're so grateful you got to go there before covid and the third thing is a project in your life and so when you express gratitude make sure that it's specific so i'll give you an example let's say rangan throws a party with his wife this weekend at their home and their friends come over.

1:22:16And one of his friends, Rangan, give me two friends' names in your life and we'll pick on them for a bit. Okay. I'll say Jeremy. Jeremy. I know he'll be listening. You know what? I'll go Gareth. Okay. Gareth and Jeremy. So let's say Gareth and Jeremy. And again, I'm just going to add a disclaimer. None of this reflects Gareth and Jeremy in real life. But let's say Gareth and Jamie come to this party that Rangan and his wife throw. And it's just a gathering to get people together. The next morning, Rangan wakes up. He doesn't look at his first thing in the morning, his phone. That's not what Rangan does.

1:22:52Rangan looks at his phone about three hours later after he's exercised, meditated, spent time with his kids. And then he looks at his phone and he sees these two messages from Gareth and Jeremy. Gareth, sorry about this, but here we go. So Gareth has messaged him saying, thanks, mate. It was great, right? That was Gareth's message. And Jeremy's message was, Rangan, thank you so much. Like you and your wife just threw an amazing party and I loved all the games we played. Your kids are adorable. And oh, by the way, you know that food? How did you both make that? That food was amazing. Thank you so much.

1:23:28Thank you for letting us have this moment together. So those are two messages. A or B, which one do you think causes Rangan more joy? Now, Rangan's a grateful person, so he'll be grateful to both of them. But he's more likely, and honestly, all of us are going to be more grateful to Jeremy in that scenario, because he's gone into more depth and been specific about what he actually liked and learned. And because of that, he's now going to attract more love and gratitude back from Rangan as well. So that's why expressing gratitude is actually the key. And if we can express gratitude to people, places, and projects, we start to develop more gratitude in our life.

1:24:08And that's something we can do daily. And it can be an email, it can be a voice note, it can be a text, it could be a video call, but it can be as simple as just a text message. But specific gratitude is scientifically shown to be better for you and better for the other person. Yeah. I mean, Jay, thanks so much for sharing that because, you know, gratitude gets spoken about a lot these days, but I think that specificity piece, I think that example beautifully demonstrates just, I can feel it, the difference. You can feel it viscerally as you hear it. It does something different. And I remember so clearly, I think I left you a WhatsApp voice message because I was literally, I was thinking, oh, he's probably asleep now, but he won't have his phone on at night.

1:24:54You know, there's that bit of insecurity at first. And I thought, no, just express the damn gratitude. You know, I think the wrong good of a few years ago possibly wouldn't have done it out of insecurity or will this be taken the right way or the wrong way or whatever. But I would say the person I am today, having done a lot of the work and having practiced a lot of these tools, you know, there is, if not only did I'm, as you're sharing, does it feel good for you to get it, but it feels nice to share. I'm doing a lot of voice notes these days. I'm finding I'm going to WhatsApp, pressing the mic.

1:25:30In fact, someone told me during lockdown that you can actually press it and flip it up. Which is my friend Jodie. Thanks, Jodie. I didn't know you could do that because then you can talk without actually holding it. I didn't know that either. I hold it. Thank you, Jodie. Thank you so much. That's actually Jeremy's wife. So it's all coming. It's bringing it back together for those guys. But, you know, I find it's really, I'm a vocal kind of person. I like talking and sometimes I find it hard to express what I want to on a text message. So I'll just do a WhatsApp voice message. And yeah, I think gratitude is super powerful.

1:26:03One thing I'm going to add, well, I'll ask you actually, do you do your gratitude practice by yourself or do you also do it with your wife? So I do my gratitude practice by myself, but then the expression may lead to me expressing it to my wife. If she's the person that day that I'm being grateful for. And Now, I'm probably grateful to my wife every day. And so I express gratitude to her every day. But I really find spending some time by myself to figure out my mind first. It's almost like if you're both trying to solve a problem together, you can help each other. But one person can sometimes take shortcuts because the other person kind of carries the weight.

1:26:41And it's really important to really be clear about who you're grateful for. You can do it with your partner, of course. but make sure one of you are not kind of relying on the other person to come up with all the answers and do all the hard work when it really needs to be a personal feeling. So, you know, yeah, for me, it's, for me, I feel gratitude is the easiest gift you can give someone and the easiest gift for someone to receive, especially when it's genuine and specific. And Rangan, I would encourage you not just with me, but with anyone, you know, it was so genuine and specific that, you know, I recommend you continue to do that sharing of gratitude as you saw.

1:27:16And you said it's visceral. It is. It boosts your mood when you're grateful to someone in a specific way and then you feel they love that. Do you feel or do you think, as I do, that many people have got hangups and insecurities and therefore to do what I did to actually express gratitude to someone, they're fearful about doing it because insecurity is, I think we all face insecurities, right? And how would you help someone who says, Hey Jay, look, I want to do that. Like, I'd love to tell my work colleague that, you know, she was so helpful to me yesterday and she got me out of this jam and helped me do something, but you know, what, will it come across wrong?

1:27:59I don't really know. You know, what will they think? I mean, what would you say to someone like that? Yeah, I think you are right. I think some of our insecurity comes from, sometimes our insecurity can come from our ego, which is blocking our gratitude. So the ego says, well, I don't want to recognize that someone else is doing something good because it makes me feel inferior. That's one of the ways that our ego can block us from gratitude. And I believe in some traditions and in some circles, I've heard ego being translated to eliminate gratitude out, right? It's like a limiter, E-G-O. So, you know, you can kind of lose gratitude through ego because you think, oh, if I tell them that they're good, then that means I'm not good, which is not true at all.

1:28:41The other way the insecurity comes in gratitude is like, oh, well, what if they think I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to like get close to them or I'm just trying to say something nice for the sake of it or I'm just lying or pretending. Like, what if they think I'm just trying to suck up to them, right? Like, is that the reason? And so sometimes we hold back how we feel. What I'd say to you is, I'd say that expressing gratitude, if genuine, if from the heart, and if well explained and thought out, should always be shared even when you feel uncomfortable. Because when it's shared from that place, you've already got the benefits of feeling grateful.

1:29:23And then if that person does or doesn't react in the way you expect them to, and by the way, there shouldn't be a need for them to react because you're just thanking them for what they've already done. You're not thanking them for what they're about to do. You're thanking them for what they've already done. So now if they respond in an ungrateful way, you haven't lost your gratitude because you're grateful for what they did in the past, not what they did in the future. So don't then go, oh, well, they didn't even deserve me to be grateful because they did for that moment of what they did for you.

1:29:50So share it because it's good for you. Don't worry about how they respond. Yeah. And I guess also if they do respond in that way or if they do think that, that's their own issue, right? Yeah. Yeah, completely. That's not your issue. You've expressed it from your heart. How they react is kind of out of your control, right? And that's another key learning, I think, on this path to thinking like a monk, I would guess, is, you know, you're not in control of other people's thoughts, right? Not at all. And that's, you know, that's the biggest lesson is that you're not in charge of the results, how people respond or what they think.

1:30:32You never are. So wasting your time trying to change how someone thinks of you is, can actually be one of the most worthless pursuits in life. But changing how you think about yourself is probably one of the most worthwhile pursuits in life. But the one we spend less time on. We're constantly trying to change how people think about us. And we think if they think highly of us, then we'll feel better about ourselves. But that's not the case. The case is we can change how we feel about ourselves by changing our behavior and being more in aligned with the person we want to be with our values, as Rangan said, going back full circle.

1:31:07So don't get lost in trying to change other people's perceptions of you, because that could be a never ending journey and a journey that you never reach the destination of because you never will truly be able to control it. Yeah. Comes full circle back to that Cooley quote, right? I mean, that is, it is such a powerful quote because everything we talk about, you can just back it up straight into that. And again, it brings out the meaning of that quote so much more. But Jay, when you were just talking there about the insecurity that some people may feel when trying to express gratitude. I was struck by something I wrote down from your book, and I can't remember which chapter it's in, but you say, it's impossible to build one's own happiness on the unhappiness of others.

1:31:56Yeah. So I'm quoting Daisaku Ikeda, who's a Buddhist philosopher, who says that statement. I can't remember which chapter. I think I started the negativity chapter with that quote. So it's Daisaku Ikeda, Buddhist philosopher. And he says exactly that, that you can't build your own happiness on the unhappiness of others. And I think what that truly means is we often believe that we can only be superior if someone else is inferior. So we feel better when we say, oh, you know that person, did you know that couple's getting a divorce? Oh, did you know their marriage only lasted like two years. And what you're really saying is, well, we've somehow managed to stay together for eight years.

1:32:41We've done pretty all right. And you're kind of gossiping about them. Or another way it goes is like, what did you hear about him? He's totally messed it up. He's getting fired next week. And all you're doing is you're making someone feel inferior to make yourself feel superior. That doesn't create happiness. It creates more uncertain ground because now you're constantly looking for someone else to feel inferior, for you to feel superior. And guess what? God forbid someone's now outperforming you. You're now feeling inferior and you're feeling all the insecurity of what you felt about someone else.

1:33:16So it's never a stable ground, right? I believe it's in the Bible, but you can't, I think it's that you can't build your home on shifting sands, But in the same way, you can't build a stable identity of yourself on the gossip or the mistakes of others. And so you've got to be really careful about not building a ground for yourself. Imagine the ground you're standing on is built on blocks of superiority, bricks of gossip and mud and cement of criticism. That's not going to hold. and so you don't want to create your joy because other people are struggling or suffering you want to create your joy because you know how to deal with struggle and suffering yeah so so so beautifully explained and and i think we often write the quotes down that really mean a lot to us and i certainly feel for me that was something i spent a lot of my adult life really uh trying to come to terms with and realizing you know i used to be so competitive you know So if I won a game of snooker or table tennis, it would literally elevate me.

1:34:30And if I lost, man, I would be down in the dumps. And I've really explored this. And given the time we've got left, I sort of probably can't go down this rabbit hole. But I know one component is that as a kid, how I did at school, and again, I don't know if this is the same in your household. I know a lot of immigrant families have this sort of mentality. If you got 98%, it's like, well, why was it not 100 %? You were like, oh, what? You came second in that test. What happened? Who was first? Why didn't you come first? And I actually think whilst I, and my mom will say, because I've spoken to her about this recently, she said, well, I knew you were capable.

1:35:13So I wanted you to be the best you could. And okay. And I think she was doing the best she could, I would say for me, the way I interpreted it was that I can only be loved. I can only feel good about myself when I'm number one. And really, I'd say over the last sort of five years, that's pretty much almost gone from me now. I'm pretty okay with it now. I don't feel... And I think that is... I think it's such an important quote that you've shared because I sort of think now, and we should probably talk about social media a bit because you're pretty much the king of social media in so many ways.

1:35:54And I think I'd love to know some of your thoughts on social media. But with respect to that quote, I think one of the negatives, and there's no doubt been a lot of positives to social media, you have shared such amazing wisdom in your videos to millions of people around the world, which potentially may not have happened without social media, right? So it's not about saying it's either good or bad. But I do think for some people, it can magnify those insecurities. So if you feel that you can build your happiness on the unhappiness of others, people can get very focused on follow accounts and likes.

1:36:35And I certainly know in the UK medic world, there's a lot of medics feel a pressure to be building up their profiles. And if contacts me saying, you know, I'm not sure what to do, and you think, wow, it's causing such discontentment. And it's just a metric that in so many levels, I'm not going to say it's meaningless. Of course, it's not meaningless. But if you're trying to do it because how you'll be perceived by others, going back to what we've been talking about throughout this conversation, what are you posting for? What are you hoping to achieve by posting? Is it in service? Is it to help people or is it to elevate yourself?

1:37:17You know, I don't know, maybe you can untangle that some for us because I'm sure some people listening will be thinking that. Yeah, there's very few creators of content on social media that started out with a follow account in mind. So me included, a lot of my peers in this space, a lot of people that I know that are extremely successful on different platforms, none of them started, at least the ones that I know, none of them started to get followers. They all started because they had something to share, whatever that was, whether it was comedy, whether it's wisdom, whether it was a workout plan, a fitness plan, whatever it was, like they had something that they did that they were passionate about, they wanted to share.

1:38:02And I can only speak to myself fully, but when I started, I thought I was going to have a full-time corporate job and I was going to make videos on the evenings and weekends to share a message. That's genuinely all I believed. And after my first month, I had about a thousand subscribers on YouTube, about four videos I'd made on YouTube at about a thousand people that had subscribed to my channel. And most of my friends were like, great, Jay, that's where it's going to end. Like, congrats. Well done. Like, you've got a thousand subscribers. You kind of just crept in there in 30 days. Like, well done.

1:38:30That's cool. Like how far is this going to go? And that's really the reality of what it felt like. And the interesting thing is the question was never, how do I get more followers? The question was always, how do I make more content that impacts people? Because, and that's the question with everything. It's like, if you make more content that genuinely impacts people, you'll get more followers. If you build a business that serves more people, you'll make more money. If you help a lot of people through your talents and gifts, you will be famous and known for it. Like it's a by-product of doing something properly.

1:39:05And that's why I love the definition that Peter Diamandis gives that we should redefine the word billionaire to be someone who impacts the lives of a billion people. Why is Jeff Bezos the richest man in the world? Because he's created a product that we all say we want and that it solves a problem that we really need. And so if you want to get followers, don't look at the number. Ask yourself, are you really creating the value that's going to help people? And they're going to naturally want to follow you. And they're going to want to love your work and share it. Because to me, that's the worthwhile pursuit in life.

1:39:46Because when you do that work, that work is humbling. When you do that creativity, that's the part that makes you grateful for the success that you get because you go, wow, people actually care about what I have to say. But if you're just obsessed about numbers and metrics without being obsessed by the content, the creation, and the service, then you'll never be satisfied because there'll always be someone better than you. So for me, when I set out to write this book, so many people were like, oh, so do you want this book to be a bestseller? And I said, I want this book to be a bestseller. Of course I do, but I'm not going to focus on it being a bestseller.

1:40:19I'm going to focus on writing the best book in the world that I can possibly write given the skills that I have. And that's why when I talk about Dharma in the book, which is helping everyone find their purpose, Dharma is broken down. Dharma means purpose loosely and has many different meanings, but one of them is nature and purpose, your true nature. And the three aspects that I'll share now, and there's more depth in the book, the three aspects of Dharma are your passion, your skills, and your compassion. That's what it means when you have your passion plus your skills plus your compassion, that equals purpose.

1:40:56But for most of us, if we're just looking at numbers and metrics and data, I mean, you'll be dissatisfied there. And I'm saying that as someone who really values numbers. I understand the value of followers, social media. I get the value of all those things and I'm highly strategic. But I'll be completely honest with you. I'm not focused on the number. I'm focused on making content. And that's the message that if we're focused on really creating value in the world, all of the other stuff will come naturally. You don't have to go out and separately try and get it. And Rangan, you've done a great job of this.

1:41:29You've made content that's very organic to you. You've made content that's very natural to you. and I think that's what people gravitate towards you in your podcast and your books because it's you being yourself. You're not trying to sound like someone else. You're not trying to be someone else. And if you look at the most successful creators in the world, they're all like that. They've just really shared their raw personality with others. Yeah, I mean, thanks for sharing that, Jay. And I will just add to that. As I have stripped away the layers of conditioning from my childhood and the insecurities.

1:42:06And frankly, used a lot of the tools that are in your book, but there's a lot of new ones in there for me to be applying, which I'm really grateful that you've written this book. So I think it is incredible. And I will sit with a lot of these as I already am. But as I have become more me, and I post, frankly, I'm like you, like many people, I'm a busy guy. I've got two young kids. I made a decision that spending time with my children, spending undistracted time with my family is more important to me than other things. People have heard me say before, I don't tend to, let's say, Insta story that much or when I'm at home because my kids are around.

1:42:54And for me, it doesn't fit with my values to model to them that every aspect of my life needs to be documented into a screen. Now, that is absolutely not a criticism of people who do do that. It genuinely isn't. It's just not the way I choose to do things. But really, what I was trying to say is that I think what you said about your focus on making content that changes people's lives. And of course, some people are going to share it because you're giving people something of value. And I found not only particularly with this podcast, which is probably the favorite thing of all the things that I do now, because I get to be myself.

1:43:34I get to talk with amazing people like you. We get to have honest conversations that really, you know, often there's no real agenda. It's just about trying to share your insight, my insight, just have these sort of conversations. And I, And I feel I have become a happier and more content person since I started doing my podcast because it's helped me be myself. It's exhausting trying to be someone else. Do you know what I mean? It's tiring trying to be someone else. And going back to what you said at the start, if people are trying to spend their lives living someone else's life, it's knackering.

1:44:11It's so tiring. It's so tiring. It's, I think, you know, I'm sure it's been stated before around how it's so hard trying to act like someone else and so much easier. It's less effort being yourself. Yeah. But that's what you said, that our childhood has made us believe we're not enough. And so we think we have to be what's rewarded in society. and actually we're now living at a time where what's being rewarded in society is being yourself and and you know and that authenticity and you're right it it's it's not about whether someone's posting 30 stories a day or not it's that's not what it's about it's about is that authentically the life they want to live that's the question the question isn't do you make videos or have a podcast or have millions of followers the question is is that authentic to who you are and what you're really trying to do in the world.

1:45:07Because by the way, I know people who've impacted the world who have zero followers. Yeah. Right? Like I know people who've impacted the world who have no videos or content. That's not the only way to impact the world. That is a way to impact the world. And that's a way that I had to pursue and Rangan's pursued in a different way in his life. And if you look at Rangan's journey and my journey, we're doing it in different ways. There's no sameness in how it's being done because everyone has that. So don't limit yourself to believe there's only one way to getting to where you want to go. There are multiple paths and you probably have to test and experiment and take a few of them to see which one actually comes to fruition.

1:45:45And I took many paths. I tried so many things before I tried social media that social media was the only option I had left. And so for me, social media wasn't even my first choice. Social media was my last choice of how to work, but I was getting no breakthroughs from media companies and media execs and content platform. I just, I got no love from it all. So I had to turn to social media. Wow, that's just so powerful. So incredible, Jay. I mean, Jay, look, I had so many things to talk to you about relationships and about service and about, you know, the four Cs of friendship, you know, which again is expanding a vocabulary for people to be able to understand their lives, but understand their friends better, get less frustrated.

1:46:30but Jay, this podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. And that's because when we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our life. Now you shared some wonderful insights and practical tips for people in the show today. I'd always like to leave people with a few practical things that they can think about introducing into their life immediately to change the quality of their lives, to change the way they feel. You have so many tips. I know it's a tricky question, but do you have three or four sort of closing tips, words of wisdom for people to really start changing things immediately? So they call the three S's, the sights, the sense, and the sound.

1:47:15So what we see, what we hear, and what we smell has a huge impact on how we feel. And we actually underestimate our senses because we rely so much on our eyes. I'll give an example. Everyone's been wearing a mask recently, right? Like everyone's been wearing a mask recently. How many of you struggle to understand what people are saying because you can't read their lips anymore? Yeah. Right? We're so used to looking at people's lips as they talk that we know what words they're saying. Now that we can't see their lips, we realize we're actually not that great listeners and our ears are almost asleep.

1:47:50So we rely so much on our eyes. So let me explain to you what you can change. let's talk about sights, what you see. Ask yourself right now, what's the first thing you see in the morning? What's the first thing? 80 % of people, they see their phone first thing in the morning and last thing in the night. After they see their partner and before they see them in the morning. 80 % of us. Change it. I want you to see something in the morning that fills you with joy. It could be your favorite quote. It could be your favorite teaching. It could be a picture that your kids drew that you absolutely love.

1:48:26It could be a photo of your family. It could be a work of art that inspires you. I surround myself in my studio with pictures of places I've lived, people that I'm inspired by, stories that I've told because it fills my mind with energy when I walk into this room. If I walked in and saw a blank white wall, of course I'm going to go, this is way more interesting, but my wall is more interesting than this to me because it's meaningful. And so the first thing you see in the morning, don't make it something reactive. Don't make it a message or an email. Make it something that you've chosen to inspire you.

1:48:58That's the first thing. The second thing is the sense in your life. Why is it that when you walk into a spa or you get a massage, you feel relaxed? It's because they have sandalwood, lavender, and eucalyptus just spraying out of diffusers and candles. And it's an instant way of feeling calm. If you just inhale on your inward breath for a count of four and exhale for a count of four, if you just inhale eucalyptus, lavender, sandalwood, whatever scent you like from a diffuser or a candle, you will feel a natural sense of calm in your life and feel that clarity that you need to drop out of that anxious feeling you may have.

1:49:39And you can have a different scent in your living room, a different scent in your bedroom, a different scent in your kitchen, one that feels right for the energy you want in that room. And the third and final one is sound. So many of us don't realize the power of sound, but whether you're listening to your favorite song or whether you listen to nature sounds, when we were monks, we would rise to nature sounds. And we found that the sound of nature is so at pace with the body and the mind. And when I lived in New York, I'd often feel exhausted mentally. And I wonder why I exercise, I meditate, why is it that I feel that way?

1:50:13And I realized because it's of something when I researched called cognitive load. Your brain is making sense of insignificant sounds of drilling, of construction work, of cars and taxis and horns. And so your brain doesn't have the power to deal with what's actually it's trying to focus on. So ask yourself, what are the sounds in the background of your life? Are they songs that bring you to life? Are they music that calm you down before you go to bed? Use sights, scents, and sounds to change the state and energy of any environment in your home. And if you literally walked into every room in your house and you said, what is the sight that inspires me in this room?

1:50:53What is the scent that calms me in this room? And what is the sound that makes me feel at ease in this room? And use sound design, sight design, and scent design each of your rooms With just a candle, a picture and a playlist, you'll transform the way you feel starting today. Yeah, just brilliant tips, Jay. Really, really great and makes me think about my own morning and even scent. I like that. That is something I hadn't really thought about. Although I often do come into the garden and sort of first thing, but I could come in and really pay attention to what I'm smelling rather than just being in nature.

1:51:35I could also smell something. So I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll do that tomorrow morning. You might, you might even get another voice message of gratitude. But, um, but Jay, in the spirit of what you said before, um, of gratitude, I really, I do want to say that what you have done by living your life, by going on your journey is impact the lives of millions of people around the world. And I think you're continuing that path with this wonderful book that I really do hope is a bestseller all around the world, because I think it's jam-packed for the wisdom. And I just want to acknowledge you for that. Say thank you.

1:52:16Thank you for giving up some of your precious time today. We, me, the listeners have loved having you on for your Better Live More and I'm looking forward to the next time. Rangan, thank you so much. I want to be grateful to you too, because when I got that message and I can tell obviously in this interview, you've spent so much time with the book, it means a lot to me. I mean, there's no greater feeling of satisfaction as a creator than when what you create is consumed and used and practiced. And there's nothing better than that. And so you've given me a real gift today and I'm so grateful that you've shared this with your audience and your community.

1:52:53and I can't wait to do lots more together, man. I'm excited. I genuinely am. Like I really look forward to it because yeah, this was such a joy and such a treat and this was my first thing of the day. So I'm glad I got to do this with you. Thank you so much. Thanks, Jay. Yeah, thank you, man.

1:53:18You're here right now listening to this. There's something beautiful about that. Because no matter what you've experienced in your life, you've made it to this moment. And that, on its own, is an accomplishment. The next seven minutes are about acknowledging the person most responsible for getting you here. You. I'm Jay Shetty. Welcome to The Daily Jay. Let's start as usual with three deep breaths to get centered Breathing in And breathing out Feeling your body rise And letting it fall One more And on we go I've talked before about how much I love sending thank you notes They're a powerful expression of gratitude Equally impactful for both the giver and the receiver But in writing our thank you notes There may be one important person we've been leaving out Researchers recruited more than 1 ,100 study participants And had them write one of three letters One group wrote a thank you letter to someone who'd done something for them Another group wrote a letter describing something positive that had happened to them And the third group was instructed to address their letter Dear past me And express gratitude for something they had done for themselves The traditional thank you notes and the letters describing something positive were all great and filled people with happy vibes But the researchers noticed something interesting about the third set of letters When people wrote to their past selves, they tended to focus on a difficult experience and thanked themselves for persevering through a tough time The word brave came up frequently Lead researcher Matt Baldwin says that Thank Me letters seem to bring us closer To a sense of who we really are By underscoring the good qualities we've shown over our lifetime And they remind us how we've already demonstrated To ourselves that we can overcome challenges and obstacles Once we recognize that we've done it before We realize we can do it again We tend to think of gratitude as an external practice We direct our appreciation towards others To our spouse, our dog, our favorite podcaster We might even give thanks to the sun for shining Or to our car for being so reliable And that's great It's wonderful to acknowledge others But don't forget yourself Because you're the person most deserving of your thanks We're often quick to be harsh with ourselves And slow to show compassion and kindness Conscious self-gratitude helps with that I know that life's journey isn't always pretty Sometimes we encounter challenges that we're convinced are insurmountable Maybe you're even experiencing a situation like that now If so, there's no better time to reach out to your past self Recall and acknowledge your fortitude Your creativity Or your ability to hang in there And get to that next day That next hour Even that next minute Every single one of us is so much more powerful capable and resilient than we often believe.

1:57:36So every once in a while, stop and thank yourself for all the ways, large or small, that you've showed up for yourself in the past and continue to do so each day. With that in mind, let's practice a gratitude-based body scan. We're going to check in with ourselves, part by part, while saying thanks to our body for supporting us throughout the day. And if any piece of this practice doesn't feel right for you or your body, go ahead and modify it to best suit you. First, bring your attention to your eyes, closing them if you'd like and observing how they feel. may be tired may be alert it's okay if you don't observe anything at all say a quiet thank you for all your eyes do to help you move through the world now shift your attention to your ears noticing any sounds that may be present.

1:59:01Express gratitude for this moment and all others. Moving your awareness to your jaw and consciously letting it relax. Our jaw does a lot every day But how often do we acknowledge it?

1:59:32For the next few moments I want to give you the space To decide which body parts To scan and thank Maybe the lungs for breathing the heart for beating the hands for working so hard totally your call

2:00:04And now let's open this up. With our time remaining, I want you to think about how you would start your thank me note. Begin with dear past me and express gratitude for something, anything you've done for yourself.

2:00:30Your homework is to finish your letter today And I'd encourage you to put it on paper Remember, you are deserving of gratitude from yourself I should also say that I'm grateful for you And I look forward to seeing you tomorrow

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