4 Steps to Build Emotional Maturity & Make Relationships Last (Tom Bilyeu Interviews Jay)

25:16But our goal is we just want to numb things away. And I don't think that that's why sitting with your thoughts for 15 minutes is really hard because there's nothing to numb it. There's nothing that will numb it. And even sitting in the cold, nothing numbs that apart from your own centeredness and breathing. You have to go to that. And I think that's why sitting alone with your thoughts is such a powerful practice. Because what you're saying, if you want to be happy, being happy about yourself when you're by yourself, that requires you to not numb anything about yourself because that's the full acceptance.

25:48So interesting. So I've been thinking a lot recently about distraction, why distraction exists, because I think it actually serves a pretty powerful purpose. If we didn't have the ability, so there's a part of the brain called the basal ganglia, which is known as the gear shift in the brain. And for people that have obsessive thinking, they get stuck and the basal ganglia is not able to let them pass that thought into another thought. Now, I think one of my superpowers is my gearbox is amazing. And to the point where it almost becomes problematic because I can, I'll forget about something that I was obsessed with thinking about, ah, cause my gearbox just like goes into the next thing.

26:24And so that has shown me that I can very easily get myself out of a loop. If I'm, you know, on something that's super negative, I can get out of that. But for somebody who can't, you need that external distraction and doom scrolling. Like there was one period in my life where I was so, I had so much going on that even the thought of meditating was just like, well, then everything is going to come crashing down. And I was like, but I know better than to not meditate. So I need some sort of primer to soothe me enough to get me into meditation. And it was actually doom scrolling cats, not just cats, but like things like that, where it's like cute, funny, 15 seconds to digest the idea and then you move on to the next.

27:06And I trained my YouTube algorithm on shorts to only show me like cute, fun things. And I would do that for like seven minutes and then I would go meditate. And I was like, wow, that is freakishly effective. So you have to wall things off because if you doom scroll for seven hours, you now never get anywhere. But if you don't understand how powerful distraction can be enough to get you to the point where now you can take advantage of of something like meditation, which is gonna leave you alone with your thoughts. It's really, really fascinating. Yeah, I love what you just said about distraction.

27:42I've always allowed myself five minutes an hour to be random. And I often have, I would either do a timer on my phone, where at one point I was really into hour glasses or minute glasses, and I would just turn it over. What do you do in that time? So I would allow myself to scroll, I would allow myself to search random stuff on YouTube, I'd allow myself, so it's giving myself the capacity to be random. And what I found in randomness is that you connect really interesting dots. Yeah, that's why I like meditating. Yeah, exactly. And so I find like in space where I don't know what I'm going to type in, or I'd pick up a random book from my shelf, or I would find a random thing that I'm scrolling through.

28:17But allowing myself to do that for five minutes every hour allowed my mind to have that space, to have that gap, to connect dots, but then return back. But that's us using distraction rather than just letting it be there, right? And I think when distraction controls you and drives you and everyone knows what it feels like to be on a rabbit hole where you end up on some random website or some random YouTube channel, everyone's been there. That's not a good feeling. Like, I don't think I want that feeling where I end up somewhere seven hours later, where seven minutes of randomness is really healthy and beautiful and can be amazing.

28:53And so why can't seven minutes of stillness, Why can't seven minutes of listening to sounds or ambient noises or nature sounds, right? I think there's also a sense of, I think it's reconnecting with our breath. There's an amazing study I talk about in the book about how when we spend time with people that we're close to or caregivers or people that love us, our breath and even our heartbeat can synchronize with it. Dude, that is so weird to me. It's so strange, right? Dude, humans sync up to each other. The one that freaks me out the most is that women will sink their periods and they all sink to the dominant female.

29:30That stuff gets super crazy. Wow, yeah. Super crazy. Yeah, it happens to my wife and her sister all the time. But yeah, I don't know which way around it is. Yeah, yeah, see, that's the next question. Now I've talked about that, yeah. So fascinating. Yeah. So walk me through, okay, so we get self-awareness. So I love that you started the book with solitude. So we stop being afraid of our thoughts because we're doing the, and now what? Yeah. So we have the saying, it's overwhelming. It's freaking us out. We're going to deal with it, which I love that. And now in the context of becoming, in fact, here's a thing that either you're going to be like 100 % or this will be where we debate.

30:05I think if you want to be in a relationship, you must be worthy of a relationship. Now, I'm going to push it even farther and make Jay Shetty the monk a little uncomfortable, maybe. The ultimate way to think about it is you are asking somebody to have sex with you. And that's crazy. It is the weirdest sort of energetic thing that we do. Like, I think about this a lot. I love this. With Lisa, I went from, hi, my name is Tom, to exposing my genitals and doing what one does. It's like, that's a big chasm to cross. And if you're going to ask somebody to go on that journey in a way where they're as excited as you are and you don't end up in jail, you have to be somebody that's worthy of that.

30:46And that's a big ask. Yeah. So one, does that resonate or do you think I'm out of my mind? And if it resonates, how do people become worthy? Well, that's very monkish of you. I mean, you've put sex on a very sacred high value. Facts. Right, right. In fact, when you said earlier about loneliness, I was like, I've actually been, the loneliest I've ever been was in the middle of intercourse, which is a crazy thought. Like I couldn't be anymore with a person. And because there was no emotional connection, I felt so alone. Yeah. It's crazy. I'm so glad you brought that up though, right? That's what we understand about loneliness now, that loneliness isn't about the number of people around you.

31:25It isn't about how popular you are. It doesn't matter how many people are surrounded by you. If you don't feel understood, if you don't feel seen, if you don't feel heard, you're lonely, right? That's what it is. And so when you're saying, I'm having sex with someone and I still feel lonely, that's real. But you, from your definition of just how you broke that down, you're placing sex as extremely sacred, as a high value. There could be lots of people listening or watching or maybe people that we don't even, that aren't in this community that would actually disagree. And they'd just be like, well, sex is just sex.

31:55Like what's, they don't see it that way, right? The way you see it is probably more aligned with the Vedas than the other perspective, for sure. The idea that if you're about to do anything intimate with anyone, physical intimacy, emotional intimacy, the amount of like exchange of, we just talked about exchanging heartbeats and breathing. I mean, if you think about how biologically affected you are by a relationship, let alone how emotionally and then spiritually affected you are by a relationship and how much karma you share from a spiritual level, how much energy and vibration you share on a spiritual level.

32:31You're talking about like completely syncing up or destroying your synergy with someone. And so I would say I agree with you. I don't think you're crazy at all. I think you're spot on. This is Jay Shetty from On Purpose. And if you've ever felt like you've lost touch with yourself, try changing your surroundings, even for just a few days. Delta recently invited four creators to do just that. Two trips, one question. What if travel isn't just movement, but recharging in motion? In Seattle, they focused on routine and self-care, gym time, grounding walks, and meditation. In Copenhagen, they let go.

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35:34No matter my destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com forward slash sapphire reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC, subject to credit approval, terms apply. So how do you become worthy? So I think that, I mean, I don't think you have to complete solitude in order to move on. And so in the book, I break down the four things that the Vedas break down, which is preparing for love, which is solitude, practicing love, which is in a relationship, right? The third is like preserving love or protecting love because there's a part of us when we're burnt through love that loses the belief in love or changes.

36:28So there's a protection of love that comes at phase three. And phase four is what I call perfecting love. And so if those are the four phases, solitude is the one preparing for love. And you have to do a lot of that becoming worthy in solitude because what, I mean, we're saying something here that I think we're on the same page. The idea that if you walk into a relationship and you don't know who you are, you don't know what you need or what you want and what you're building and what you're creating, you're basically going to hope that the other person's going to answer all those questions for you or you're going to outsource that inadequacy to them to make you feel worthy.

37:04So that's why we walk into a relationship and we accept the currency of attention as love. We accept the currency of validation as love. Dude, that's big in a social media culture. Right? We accept the currency of attention, validation, compliments, comfort, random niceness. We accept all of that as love because we ourselves haven't defined and experienced what love looks like on our own. So how you become worthy of another person is first becoming worthy for yourself. And what does it mean to be worthy for yourself? To me, it's doing hard things alone. When you've done hard things alone and you've grown through them, and when I say alone, I don't mean without your family or without friends.

37:50I just mean when you've broken through some of your own barriers, that gives you a healthier sense of self-esteem and self-worth. I think self-worth doesn't come from saying affirmations in a mirror. It doesn't come from just like pretending to be happy. It doesn't come from being positive. Your greatest self-worth is going to come from breaking through stuff that you didn't think you could break through. Do people expect you to say, just look yourself in the mirror and say, I love myself. Yeah. I think, I think people, I think people sometimes project their own belief of like the word self-love, right?

38:26So there's, there is a form of self-love like I love going to spas. I love getting massages. So I'm into that form of self-love. But I see that as more self-care. I see that as like caring for myself and things like that. When I think of self-love as just telling myself I love myself, I've tried all of those things and I've seen how they are not possible when I haven't done some other work. Like me looking in the mirror and just saying, I'm amazing. I'm wonderful. If I haven't done something amazing that day or done something wonderful that day, I don't believe myself. Right. And that's the problem people have.

39:00They're like, I don't believe it. Now there's two sides to it. I actually believe a lot of people have done hard things, but they don't give themselves credit for it. Very possible. So there's, there's a big group of people, my mom included. I interviewed my mom recently, not on the podcast. I want to, but I, I did what I, I'm happy I did. I interviewed her at a dinner, just me and her, because I really wanted to get to know her story. But I realized That's cool. I didn't feel that. Did you record it? I'm guessing not if it was at dinner. I didn't because - I did that with my father-in-law and recorded it.

39:27It was awesome. Have you shared that? No, and I doubt - No, I would love to. Knowing the background of your father-in-law. Dude, that's interesting. We should ask Lisa because it was dope. Like that guy's story is crazy. Yeah. It's unbelievable. And that's what I'm saying. We don't even know the people closest to us, right? So love again anyway, but that's a whole nother thing. But I sat down with my mom. I asked her questions like I would ask on the podcast. And I was talking to her and she was telling me that it's at like 15 years old, I think, 15, 16 years old. She was born and raised in Yemen.

39:58Oh, wow. And so, yeah, so she's living in Yemen. Yemen are trying, and it was called Aden at the time. They're trying to, the Brits who have colonized the country are fighting against the Yemeni soldiers and she's studying for exams while there's gunmen on her rooftop. Whoa. Like that's her story. And I'm like, mom, like you've never told me how bad this was. you just told me you left Yemen because of the war and moved to England. Like that's the story I know. And all of a sudden I'm discovering that you are actually studying for an exam while there's people with guns on your roof defending, and you're in the middle of all of that.

40:33And you're 15 years old. And she never told me that. And I was thinking she's done hard things. Like, and she doesn't, she doesn't even see it that way because to her it's normal. It's interesting. Do you think she thinks it's normal or do people confuse enduring, which is extraordinary with, oh, but I didn't actively choose it and therefore I completely discount it. Totally. Totally. Well, I mean, at least for my mom, I can say that she just sees it as her life. She doesn't see it as like hard or easy or that's her kind of way she sees stuff. It's kind of how I feel sometimes when I talk about my monk experience, it's very normal to me.

41:10Like there's a part and I chose to do it. there's a part of me that's just like it's normal and people are like that's crazy like why would you ever become a monk after school it's so bizarre but to me it's not that bizarre and so it takes me a minute to be like oh wait a minute it is pretty crazy right like not many people do that but I don't I don't sit in that thought that often and so I think there's I think what I'm saying is that this becoming worthy is breaking through some of your own barriers and limits whatever they may be which is what you discover in the solitude and the more you break through those, the more you feel worthy for anything and everything, because you go, wow, I've done some really tough stuff on my own.

41:46I've like really pushed myself in this way. I've really tried something new. And now you're not looking for that person to fill your worthiness. You're not looking for that person to say you're amazing and you're the best and you're incredible because you've experienced your strength, right? When you've experienced your strength, no one can make you feel weak. The right person will only make you feel stronger, right? And that's the key. when you've already done hard things, the people around you will only make you feel stronger. That's why you know they're great to be in your life because they're not making you feel strong.

42:20They're making you feel stronger. Whereas what we often find is that - Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. They're not making you feel strong. They're making you feel stronger. Correct. So I'm saying like, so even in a positive relationship with us, like when I'm around you, right? And we have a healthy relationship. We know each other a fair bit. But it's like I consider myself to be self-aware and self-confident and have a high degree of self-worth. Totally open about it. I have no issues. No issues. No reasonable person will push back on that. Yeah, no issues with it whatsoever. And I feel that the people I like to be in my life are not people who I'm looking to support that or do that.

43:00But they're able to help me discover more about myself. So there's a sign of strength. So I had a client I was working that I was coaching with last year and he did this for me and it was really powerful. And I was like, I only like working with clients who also I learned from. So I have a selfish motive there, but it's special. He said, I've never met someone who ties up spirituality, business and practicality in one person like you do. And I'm not saying that to self-promote. I'm saying that because he gave me permission to be all three. And that made me stronger. I'll second that. And it was just really powerful.

43:32I felt so like freed by that statement to be all three because it made me stronger. I know I am in those things, but that person made me stronger. That's what I'm saying that you gravitate towards when you already have a sense of self-worth. Whereas when you don't have a sense of self-worth, you look for the person who's saying, oh, you're really good at that. Oh, like maybe you should work on that. You're looking for someone to like make you feel better about yourself from zero. whereas you're already at a 10 and someone's like finding new ways of showing you more of yourself that's there's something beautiful about that agreed i don't even know if i'm articulating clearly but very clearly from my perspective so i think that there is a biological imperative hardwired into the brain that you must do hard things in order to feel good about yourself and when i think about it from an evolutionary standpoint and this is why i think rich kids implode.

44:21You just never had to do hard things. From an evolutionary perspective, I think it was just so hard to stay alive. Like for millions of years, it really was red in tooth and claw. Like to stay alive, you were kill or be killed. You were hunting, gathering, fighting other tribes. I'm just crazy. And the people that were going to survive, we're going to be the ones that, that got an emotional, a self-applied emotional reward for doing something hard. And when you do something hard and you recognize it, it needs to feel good. And if it does, then you will keep doing hard things and you're the far more likely to survive than the person who's like, that sucked.

45:00There was no redeeming qualities. And so it's just like, when I think about that, because if I were to create a recipe for fulfillment, it's very simple. It's working really hard, doing hard things to gain a set of skills that allow you to serve not only yourself, but others. That's it. Like that's the whole recipe, but it really has to be that you had to do something hard. If it came easily to you, it won't give you the sense of respect that you want. Like the stuff that I've gotten more easily in my life, I don't take a lot of pride in. It's always the stuff that I grind out, like through pain and suffering.

45:37And I endure. In fact, I want to read you a quote. This is one of my all-time favorite quotes. To those human beings who are of any concern to me, I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill treatment, indignities. I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished. I have no pity for them because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not. that one endures ah the chills that was nicha that is so raw i definitely i'm not i'm not gonna um so good like and subscribe i i think it i i get the sentiment i would not wish it on anyone that's amazing so push back as hard as you can because i i love this so if you agree yeah in fact where where does it break down because this is why i don't have kids that is what people need in my opinion.

46:37And I can't do it. Well, that's where we disagree, right? I get the intention and the spirit of it. But do you think they'll be a better person if they avoid it? I don't think you have to. I feel like for most people, for most people, life is already hard in some area. I don't think there's many people I know, at least where I grew up as well. But does it make them better or worse? Well, I don't think they have the tools, which is why we've dedicated what we're doing to that, right? Like, I don't think that when I look at the people I grew up around or the areas I grew up in, and it wasn't the worst of the worst, it wasn't the best of the best.

47:14I've been to Wood Green. Yeah. It's not lovely. It's not lovely, right? Yeah, you've been there, of course. Yeah, it's not nice. And people made bad choices because they didn't have good role models, right? Like, people made bad choices because they didn't have good tools. They didn't make bad choices because of just where they were. It's because they didn't have access. Today, we have access. And that's what we're trying to do, I feel, with our work. Because I look at myself and I could clearly, if I, what's that called? Sliding doors. If I envisioned where my life could have been if I didn't take a few steps, I could easily have been today addicted to some drug, getting involved in things that were highly violent and finding my self-validation through gang culture.

47:58I could have so ended up there. I literally could pinpoint three decisions that could have totally took my life in that direction and no one would know who I am today and I'd be a very different person. Not because I'm a bad person or because I'm attracted to any of those things, just because I didn't have access. I got lucky and I see that. The access that I got to the monks at an early age just transformed the trajectory of my life. But most people don't meet someone random. We follow the same people on Instagram. We follow the same people on YouTube. We all watch the same stuff. We listen to the same stuff.

48:32how many people in their last seven days could be honest and say they heard from a random voice that was unexpected or they saw a random person that they didn't know that sparked a new journey in their life like that's how random it was for me to meet a monk i didn't grow up religious i wasn't around monks i didn't go religiously to meet monks like i met someone who completely sparked a different thought when you're sitting down with trauma experts when i'm sitting down I were neuroscientists. Like, I didn't grow up with neuroscientists. Like, who was speaking to those people? So I feel, yeah, I just feel like with that, oh, but going back to that statement, I wouldn't wish pain on anyone because I feel that life is already hard.

49:14I would just wish that people opened up their hearts and minds to the tools that would help them deal with that hardship better and not try and rely on what they currently have in their toolkit. That would be my wish. If you ask me what my wish is for people. The only way I can like and subscribe to that statement is if we modify slightly and say, I wish that people could develop a profound sense of self-worth and avoid all of that. But I don't think they can. I don't think they can avoid it. And so this may be a cruel twist of evolution. Like, I want to be very clear. I'm not saying I'm glad it is this way.

49:50I'm just saying I think it is this way. Now, my beef with the idea of I wish that these horrible things upon people is that it breaks most of the people that it touches. Right. But I don't think people can become a version of themselves that they'll be proud of unless they go through that stuff. Yeah. And I think the compassionate monk in me can't wish that on someone in that way. And you could argue that real compassion is letting the right thing happen to someone that they need to go through. I just don't think, and that is what we'll do. Ooh, that's interesting. So here was my catch with one of the reasons I didn't have kids.

50:28I knew I would intervene if something bad was happening. Now, as I get older, I feel like I might be more capable of letting it happen. But at the time when I was sort of peak, like, should we, should we not? I was like, I know I will intervene. Would you intervene? It's always hard. Are you going to have kids? I don't know, is the answer here. We don't know. We've talked about it. We're very like, we're probably at that stage you were actually a year ago. And so we've been very open about it. We're like, we don't know. And partly it's these kind of things. Partly it's how it affects service and impact.

51:03There's so many things, right? There's so many facets to that question of. So let's say Dar, who has two children, your co-host on your show, Dar and Jay, for those that aren't liking and subscribing yet. Would you want them to intervene? when I saw so I saw a couple of parents that I was friends with a few years back and I remember that their two-year-old was like putting our hands through a candle like on the other side of the room so we were all hanging out here the two-year-old's running around and the two-year-old's on the other side of the candle and they're doing that and my natural instinct at the time this is probably like maybe like eight years ago my natural instinct was to go and be like help that kid.

51:44And I'm always mindful of other people's kids too, because I just feel like something, you know, and I was about to jump up and help her and they were like, no, no, no, leave it. She's fine. She'll, if it hurts her, she'll know next time not to touch that and let her learn by herself. And I was like, wow, that's really impressive. Like I'm scared your kid's going to burn their hand and you're really, now I'm not recommending either or my friends are great parents and they're very loving. And, and that's the challenge today, right? Like a lot of people be like, oh my God, they don't care about their kids.

52:09Like, I think they do care about their kids. I think they're really great parents, but them allowing their child to do this. I would then see pictures of them. They moved into the countryside and stuff, and their kid would just be out swinging on trees and climbing stuff and falling over. And they were so comfortable with that because they had that mindset that there should be an openness. Now, I think there's that openness, but then there's intervening when it gets really painful. What if your child gets involved in drugs? Are you not going to intervene? Are you not going to educate? And obviously, in all the right ways, you'd hope would be the healthy ways of intervening.

52:46I don't think ever walking in and telling a kid to stop or don't do that is ever going to work. But to me, intervening is important at certain points where you think it's like really going off the edge of the cliff versus when you feel like it's healthy experimentation and you don't. But I'm saying this obviously in theory because I don't have to. But when I look at it with my, the closest person I can compare it to is my sister. So my sister's five years younger than me. When she was born, I held her in my hands and I felt like I've parented her in many ways. I call her kid. That's my nickname for my younger sister.

53:22And if I look at my sister, I made mistakes by intervening too much sometimes. So I didn't really want her to have a job growing up because I worked a job growing up when I was 14 and I didn't really think that that was healthy for her. And now I look back and I was like, realize that was a mistake. Like I should have let her work. And I don't think that that was a good decision. And so that's me going, okay, well, that was a bad intervention. and then there's other things where like we have a really open relationship she tells me all her challenges we're really good friends she's not scared to tell me something like that's the healthy part of it and so i look at like how parenting is so tough because you look back and you're like ah i'm wiser now then you look back and go oh i got that right so i i think whether it's kids or not i guess my point is i wouldn't wish pain on someone because i think they're going through some sort of pain anyway that's my point i can't wish pain on someone yeah that's my I hear it.

54:18What is the formula? If you want to be in a healthy relationship, what's the number one thing people get wrong? And what is the fix? Yeah. So I'm going to give you three. I break them each down in this book. So the three are, and the first one's simple and basic, and then it gets more complex and interesting. So the first one is you have to like their personality. You have to like their company. You enjoy being around them. You enjoy being around them for longer periods of time, which is an important experiment. Like I read a study that showed to make someone a casual connection, you have to spend 40 hours with them.

54:56For a casual connection, if you want someone to be considered a friend, it's 100 hours of time with that person. And if you consider someone a good friend, if you consider someone a good friend, a great friend, it's 200 hours plus. If you can't like someone's company for 200 hours of undistracted time, chances are you don't really like their personality. We both know people that we would love to spend a weekend with, but we wouldn't want to see them every weekend. That's okay. Those can be great casual friendships. We both know people that we wish we could spend more time with, but we don't prioritize.

55:38They're good friends, but they're not going to be the best friends. And then we know people like our wives who we spend a considerable amount of time with, disproportionately more with them than we do with any other human on the planet. And hopefully we make good decisions. We're happy about those decisions. So when I look at that liking, that's what I mean by liking that person's company and personality, give it some tangibility of what that means. The second thing you need, and this is where I want to be very clear about my language because this word gets thrown a lot in relationship talk, but I don't mean it in the same way.

56:11So the thing is you have to respect their values. And what I mean by this is 99 % of us in relationships are trying to make our partner respect our values. We want them to like what we like. We want them to love what we love. If I'm going to watch football on the weekend, I'd love for you to come with me. If I think that going towards this is really important, you should be there. So we demand that our partner respects our value rather than respecting theirs. And I'll give a tangible example. So for example, Radhi's number one. And I ask a lot of couples to do this exercise if I'm working with someone.

56:49I'll ask couples to rank their top three priorities, including themselves in order. And most of the time, one partner will say, you, are you the partner? So you would say, Lisa. If you had the kids, you'd say the kids. And then third, they'd put themselves. That's a general order that people put. Now, sometimes you'll get a curveball where someone goes, me, you, the kids. And every time someone writes that, their partner goes, how could you put the kids third? How can the kids be third? Like, how does that make any sense? And how can you be first? And it's like, well, no, because I know that I don't want to give you my leftovers.

57:31I want to give you the best in me. So when you look at respecting someone's value, when I look at Radi's values, Radi's number one value is family, her family. My number one value is my purpose and my service to the world. Those are not the same values. A lot of people say, you have to have the same values in a marriage. I don't subscribe to that. I don't think you have to have the same values. I think if you're looking for someone with exactly the same values, you're going to take a lot longer to find that person. I don't know anyone in the world that I know that's happily married, and I'd love to break it down with anyone, who genuinely could say we have the same exact values.

58:03So I respect Radi's value as family, which means when family becomes a priority in decision-making, when family becomes a priority during the holiday season, when family becomes a topic of conversation, I'm zoned in. That's something she deeply values and cares about. If she's going to choose family over anything, I'm going to be okay with that because she's made it very clear that's her number one value. Same back at me. If I choose purpose over anything, she knows that's going to happen. It's not a surprise. I know so many people who are trying to get their partners to change their value, and I just don't see that happening.

58:40Or that person compromises their value and now feels less versions of themselves, like a less adequate version of themselves. And now you're dating the second best version of the person you love. And so that's respecting values. And the third thing is, and this is what differentiates it. Is you are committed to helping them get to their goals. you're committed i may like your goals tom but we're not in love and we're not in a relationship where i'm committed to achieving your goals i love it i deeply appreciate you in the world i think you have an amazing impact but if someone asked me jay you could feel this way about a friend i'm not committed i'm not actively doing something i may support i collaborate i help but i'm not committed whereas with my wife i'm committed on a daily basis going rather what do you want in your life?

59:31Where are you going? What do you need? What support do you need? What can I do for you to help you get there? It's not about her helping me get to my goals. She's thinking about that. But I'm thinking about how is that? So those are my things for a happy relationship. Those are three key things. I mean, there's so many more things I could go into, but I have to give the overview formula. It's those three things. So what trips people up? I'm assuming selection, if that's such a big part, they just select the wrong person. Why? I think people select the wrong person because they are looking for, first of all, we select the wrong person because we make so many snap judgments off of a few basic inputs.

1:00:11So one of the things that the Vedas talk about is something called the six opulences. And we've talked about this before. We talked about them in a different context. But the six opulences are fame, wealth, power, beauty, knowledge, and renunciation. Those are the six opulences. These are six things people pursue, people value, people admire, right? We can all agree with that. I love that renunciation made the list. Yeah. Talk about self-awareness. Yeah, it's a huge one. And so those six are the six opulences. And what we do in relationships, which is really interesting, is when we find someone has one opulence, we ascribe them other qualities.

1:00:52So if someone is wealthy, we assume that they must be organized and that they'll be organized in the home. If someone is attractive, we assume that they'll be able to articulate themselves effectively. If someone is powerful at work, we assume that they're really good at organizing date night, right? Like there's these qualities we start ascribing people. And so often what happens is one opulence does this halo effect into making you believe that this person has a lot more gifts and skills and qualities, rather than through research and learning and experience, you're just giving them away to that person.

1:01:31And we do this in interviews, right? We all know how the halo effect works in interviews. If you're interviewing a more attractive candidate, you're more likely to hire them. more attractive hostesses and waiters and waitresses get bigger tips like this is just how human psychology works but it's very risky when you choose a life partner based on how attractive someone was for 30 seconds and so i find that selection goes wrong because of that because we ascribe qualities because of one opulence rather than actually seeing those qualities it's like me saying to you, when did Lisa realize she could trust you?

1:02:08I'm hoping it's not day one because trust is something that has to be proven time and time and time again. Trust is something that she has to see time and time again. He said he was going to be there at this time. He turned up. He said he was going to show up for this moment. He showed up. That's trust. Trust is not built because someone was really nice to you. And so trust is something we throw away. And I can dive into the levels of trust too, but, you know. Yeah, I mean, if those are the top-notch things, let's get into it. Yeah, so I talk about four levels of trust. This is actually in Think Like a Monk, but it fully connects to this book.

1:02:45There are four levels of trust. My belief is that whenever you meet anyone, someone new, your relationship with them should start at zero trust. Now, what we do in life is we believe that there's only two things in everything. We think everything's binary, right? Black and white, left and right. Trust, don't trust. Now, is zero trust sitting at the zero point between trust and distrust? Zero is sitting at no trust beginning, yes. Because you don't have an active, like you're not looking at them suspiciously. Correct. So I'm going to give you the level. So the first point being that we see trust as too binary.

1:03:25I have people I trust and there's people I don't trust. To me, that's too limited and it doesn't help. Because what that means is if I like someone, I automatically trust them, which is massively unhealthy. And so what I'm saying is that zero trust is correct between distrust at the bottom and then trust higher, but there's three levels in between. So when I meet someone, especially if you're dating them, you have zero trust in them. The next step is transactional trust. Transactional trust is, I know when this person says they're going to do something, they do it. I know there's an equal exchange in the transaction.

1:04:01If I say, I'm going to do this work and you're going to pay me this amount, I know you're going to pay me at that time. That's transactional trust. It's what you have with your employees. It's what you have with your teams. It's what you have with colleagues. We don't want this because it's not sexy. It doesn't feel like love. It feels too professional. It feels too corporate. But really every single person has to go through these levels with you. The next stage is reciprocal trust, where you know someone loves you and appreciates you and will do good for you, but you're not counting, you're not checking.

1:04:30You know it reciprocates naturally, it cycles around. This is a healthy level of trust after some time where the transaction's been proven over and over again. Now you don't need the contract, right? Now you don't always need to sign it. And then And the fourth stage, which I believe is practically impossible, is unconditional trust, which is that God-like trust that we all want in the person we end up with. The problem is we give unconditional trust away early, and then we fall down those levels to zero trust. And why we feel so let down by people, because it just felt like we fell down four flights of stairs.

1:05:05That's why breaking trust feels so deep because you gave someone level four trust when you should have started at zero and worked their way up. So let people earn your trust. When you talked about being worthy, like let someone earn your trust. Let someone be worthy of your trust. Don't just give it because they're nice and kind and they bought you a gift, right? So why do you think we have that instinct? Is it just the halo effect of you are kind to me and I'm letting that spill over into other areas? I think we just want to be loved so desperately. We're so desperate for it because it's been put on this pedestal that this is the defining factor of success in life is could you find someone to love you?

1:05:48Because then you'd be lovable. Then you'd be worthy. Then you'd have what it takes. If you were able to convince someone to spend their life with you, then you're worthy. and we're so desperate for that that we will happily speed through those. Instead of 200 hours, we'll tell someone we love them in two months because we'd rather have it and think we lost it than to have never found it at all because never having found it means we were never worthy. Whereas if we found it and lost it, even if it wasn't perfect, at least there was some part of us that was lovable. And that's why we'll stay in toxic relationships.

1:06:23That's why we'll settle for people who are not worthy for us because we'd rather feel like we're in love than actually build it. And I think that's the challenge is that we live in such a feeling world as opposed to a building, creating world, which is a doing world, which is an action world. I start the book with this beautiful statement of this conversation between a student and a teacher, often attributed to the Buddha. And so a student goes up to the Buddha and says, what is the difference between I like you and I love you? and the Buddha replies when you like a flower you simply pluck it and throw it away but when you love a flower you water it daily and to me that is the difference because we're so desperate yeah we're so desperate to just smell that flower observe its beauty for a few moments toss it away but that person who turns up every day and waters that flower and gives it the sun and gives it the soil up.

1:07:19No one wants to be that person, but that's love. Then you have a beautiful garden. Then you have this beautiful view every day of all these flowers that you grew. And so to me, it's the desperation of the feeling of being loved is making us settle for less than. It's really interesting. Now you say that nobody wants to be that person because of the effort and energy. This is something that Lisa and I say a lot, and I'll be curious to see if you agree with this. I think you will, that love really isn't enough, just to be super cliche for a second, that really a relationship isn't just about love.

1:07:51That's one of the components, but it's going to take a lot of work. But work of the kind that you described, watering it, making sure it has enough sun, wiping the leaves down, make sure there's no bugs on it. It's an attentiveness investment, maybe. And it's unsexy, right? I keep using that word too, because it's not what's been portrayed. It's not what it's meant to feel like. It doesn't look like that Pinterest board. it doesn't feel like the wedding day every day right like the the challenges that i think i mean i was looking at the studies the amount of money that gets spent on weddings it says the more you spend on your wedding the more likely you had a divorce earlier like really yeah that's the trend like you have a shorter wedding the more you spend on your you have a shorter marriage the more you spend on your wedding is what the studies show and so when i saw that i was just like wow like i i didn't spend that much on my wedding thankfully now look at the studies but i was looking at that And again, I'm not saying don't have a big wedding.

1:08:45Have a big wedding. I love big weddings. I love attending. I'm just saying that it's interesting how much, if you think about it, when you're planning a wedding, you organize a priest. The priest is there to remind you of your commitments. When you get married, who's your priest? Who's reminding you of your commitments every day? We never think about that. When you get married, you have a guest list. The guest list is made up of people who love you and support your marriage. When you're married, how deeply do you think about the people you're surrounded by and how much they build the community of helping you flourish in your marriage?

1:09:27At your wedding day, you think about what you wear, what you say to that person from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep. You're conscious of each and every one of your words, maybe hopefully trying to be at least in your marriage that goes out the window. So you think about the amount of, forget the money, the amount of effort that goes into planning one day. Imagine if you took all that effort and used it to plan a marriage. How successful would every marriage be, right? It's a shift of energy. And it's a shift of mindset and saying, we spend so much time, money, energy, resources, attentiveness, your word, to plan a wedding.

1:10:09But there's no attentiveness to plan a marriage or a long-term relationship if you don't want to be married. Why do you think it is that if you're spending a lot of money on the wedding, that that's inversely correlated to the length of time that you stay married? Is it just messed up priorities? What is that? I mean, I think it's hard to, I'd have to look deeper into it. I mean, it's hard to stereotype because I guess there's so many of both, right? I'm sure there's other things that buck the trend. I think there's a part of it that you could say that the bigger the wedding or any gesture, not even wedding, any gesture, you're trying to overcompensate for trying to make this feel like it's special and important.

1:10:53I think sometimes people can throw their partner's amazing birthday parties in order to make up for the whole year what do you think about now it seems like the trend and i don't have the data but i'm almost certain this is accurate that people are getting married less and less and less and less yeah i've seen less sex less kids like it's a trend that freaks me out uh are you at all concerned that's a great question i i'm not concerned about people not getting officially married if they're in committed long-term relationships that are healthy i think it's a catastrophic error. Interesting. Why?

1:11:27Why do you think the certificate and the commitment is so important? Abstract it from the certificate. You need to do something. There is a lack of ritual in our lives now. So I read The Power of Myth when I was, I think maybe even before I met Lisa, but certainly before we got married. And the book was talking about how, hey, the big problem with society today is there's no coming of age ritual. Part of the reason the divorce rate is so high, he speculated was because there was no like real ceremony that meant something that reminded people you're a different person on the other side of this.

1:12:01And so for me, I read that and was like, okay, when I get married, that's going to be it one and done never again, barring death. And, or, I mean, look, you'd make this point in the book several times. If you're an abusive relationship, get out. I a hundred percent agree with that. Assuming I'm not, um, that I wanted something that would really remind me that I was a different person. So I wanted it to be painful and I wanted it to be permanent. And so I, as an act of a ritualistic scarification, I got a tattoo and got married and had the priests and the waving of the smoke and all that. And even though it was all in not only Greek, which I didn't speak at the time, it was an ancient Greek.

1:12:43So whatever few words I did know, I really couldn't hang on to, but there was something about the the sense of ritual and importance of people in fancy dress and like all of that, that it really did allow me because I was willing to say, this is a big moment. I'm never going to be the same again. And then reinforce that by getting the tattoo. And the whole time I was getting the tattoo, I was focusing on the pain and saying, this is forever. This is a way of permanently altering my body so that I never forget that I've made a commitment. And I think people, if you're not even willing to go through a typical marriage ceremony, like, brah, your chances of going through.

1:13:25Dude, look, first of all, I've been married for 20 years. I know what I'm talking about. And this went from I was going to be the breadwinner, wife stay at home, take care of the kids, to not having kids and my wife becoming an entrepreneur. If you don't think that was like some radical change and through all of that, I just knew divorce isn't an option. So since I'm completely unwilling to be in a loveless marriage, how do we grow together? And because it was like, well, I'm not going to be in an unhappy marriage and I'm not exiting the marriage that only leaves making the marriage awesome. And so all of a sudden it's like, okay, well, clarity of thought, I need to focus on making this awesome.

1:14:08And when people don't have that, there's just an attitude of like disposability from sex to marriage. And look, I am not opposed to casual sex. I've had my share. It was mostly fun. There were a couple of times we talked about one earlier where I was like, okay, well, even if it's a one night stand, I need to be interested in the person. That's my own personal realization. so i think people need to take that not more seriously like terrifyingly seriously yeah because that person is going to shape you in ways you can't imagine yeah and if you go into that like whatever like you're living your life by the law of accident and i see that echoed through so i love the idea of what you said about ritual like i think rituals are powerful they're important i mean there's they're totally part of vedic culture like rituals everything like rituals are those you know indian weddings are like days seven days jesus to make you realize how important this commitment is like you get married to someone over seven days and you meet all their family and they meet all of yours like there's there's an imprint right and that's what the word is samskara like samskara means impression or imprint these rituals leave imprints or impressions that are powerful to help you become new or to become more.

1:15:26And so I agree with that. And the only thing that I think I'm open to is that people take a little bit longer to decide before they commit. And that if you are in a marriage that I think there are just so many people today that are married that aren't using your mindset of, I don't want to be in a loveless marriage. What do we do? Like I literally will. And by the way, I see you and Lisa is just like, I talking to you about this stuff is so exciting for me because I love how you and Lisa love each other. I love how you talk about your rules. I love how you talk about your principles. I love how you talk about the lessons.

1:16:09And I agree with them. Like, I think we're very aligned and I'm very much earlier. This book isn't about my relationship. This book isn't about look at how successful my marriages. I've not been married for that long. This book is about studies and the Vedas and science and the research and the tools. But the one thing I will say is that I check in with Radhi regularly and I'll often do an alternative and I'll say, is this relationship going in the direction you want? And I'll check in with her and I'll say, is this relationship actually going in the direction you want. If it is great, what are we doing right?

1:16:45And if it isn't, what direction do you want to go in? And what does that require of you? And what does that require of me? And are we ready to commit to that? And that has been one of the healthiest questions for me to ask, because I'm like you, I don't want to live longer than a couple of hours in a loveless relationship when And it's something within my control. Like I don't want something within my control to be painful for longer than it needs to be. I don't want to be in a relationship where I don't talk to you for a week. I don't want to be in a relationship where we argue for a month about the same thing.

1:17:21I didn't subscribe to that. Like that's not what I committed to. Like I didn't set my life up in a way to live with pain for years and years and years. And I saw that in my family and I was like, no way do I want to create that in my life. So I'm going to do everything possible. But what I find is that a lot of people are in relationships where there isn't a collaborative approach. Alisa and you are collaborators in this. Me and Radha are growing into collaborators in this. It's like, if you're not with someone who's collaborative, it's really tough. I meet a lot of people who are like, I'm ready to do the work.

1:17:54I want to do the work. But then their partner doesn't reciprocate with any energy or any enthusiasm because they think we already did it. We got married. We had the kids. It's we both have a job. We have a house. What are you worried about? Right? Like that's the response people hear. And I'm speaking to that person and saying, well, if you need to slow down getting married, it's okay. And if you are married and it's not going in the right direction, that's okay. Because I don't want to put pressure on people to think that marriage is the achievement. And I know you're not doing that either. But I think a lot of people see marriage as the end and the achievement as opposed to the beginning.

1:18:32It's the container. It's the container, but it's not seen that way. Yeah, it's interesting. So Lisa and I got married. At the time, it did feel like we were young. But by today's standards, we were infants. It's really crazy. But when I think about how much, if you can construct the right container, it will improve your life vastly. The reason I'm so celebratory of marriage is that nothing, and I mean nothing, not business, ambition, self-improvement, nothing has given me as much as my marriage. Now, because I treat it like the flower that I water and keep the bugs off and make sure it gets sunlight and all that stuff, I mean, it's a massive amount of time and attention.

1:19:12But when I think about what the human animal is wired for, it actually isn't necessarily just a monogamous marriage, but you can go in different paths. It's actually something I wasn't sure if it would come up today. I think that there is a buffet of offerings that are available to work with human wiring. And depending on the circumstance into which you are born, you will either be in polyamorous, polyandrous, where there's multiple males, which is to one female, which is very unusual, and then monogamous. And it's utterly, I'm so aware that those are real, that I make sure that I take more time and attention to grow the one that I'm in, in the right way, if that makes sense.

1:20:03But knowing that I do have the wiring to thrive within this, but I have to be very thoughtful about how we mix that cocktail. In the book, you talk about defining love and making sure that you understand each other's fighting styles and all of that gets really wonderfully practical. You've got the fighting quiz where people can go figure out like, what's my fighting style? Do you put the same kind of attention on understanding whether the words you use are masculine energy or feminine energy? I didn't spend a lot of time in the book on masculine and feminine energy only because I think that it's not in our current vocabulary.

1:20:43And it's not really how the Vedas ultimately treat everyone as a soul. And so that's already beyond gender and beyond energy in the sense that we are all equal energy. So the Vedas come at it from a standpoint of you and me are made of the same stuff, consciousness-wise. There is no difference in the consciousness that you are and that I am or anyone in this room or anyone in the world. And therefore, I am not superior or inferior to any other individual. Hence, we can only ever be a team. So when you really go to the core of the teachings that I kind of live my life by, I can't start to see better or worse or bigger or not.

1:21:23So I don't just look at Radhi as a team member on the fact that she's my wife. I see her as a team member because I see her as consciousness and divine energy, which is the same as the energy that's within me because I'm not this body, right? Like I genuinely believe that at the core of my being is that I'm not a physical body. And so it's very hard for me to get lost in conversations around physical body and gender-based or masculine, feminine energy because at the core of it, that's not how I'm structuring my life. How does that influence the way that you think about it? Because I'm the exact opposite.

1:21:56I am of this body, nothing else. When I die, it's a light switch. I'm gone. If you take a needle and jab a part of my brain, it's going to impact how I'm able to process the world. So it's very direct how I, which is probably a big part of the reason I'm so tactical. I just view the world through that lens. It is my temperament. So if you don't have that, would you call yourself a dualist, like where spirit and body are completely separate? No. So it's like, well, so yeah, so in our philosophy, it's called simultaneous one and difference. So it's both. It's like you You have the, I'm living in this body, but I am not this body.

1:22:39So the idea - Can you be separated from, like, do you believe in an immortal soul that will outlive your body? Yes, yes. And sorry to be so grounded in the physical. Does that continue to exist in a physical place? Or there is another realm that we don't have access to when we're in this body? Yeah. So the philosophical understanding that I have is that the consciousness continues to seek physical form to experience physical pleasure and physical experiences until the point that it is materially exhausted and is able to truly live in its full consciousness, not needing a physical form to exercise physical needs and desires.

1:23:18And how does that consciousness manifest itself once it's transcended the pursuit of physical pleasure? It's described in quality, not in, obviously I've not experienced that. Sure, sure. My only experience of it is through meditation and practice. And is it an intuitive understanding that you would be hard pressed to put into language? No, it's a state. Well, the state is described as full of knowledge, eternal and full of bliss. That's the state in which we're living. And so what I'm explaining is that through what we call purification of consciousness, once the material body is no longer useful, you're then living in that full spiritual consciousness would be a spiritual form, a form that doesn't bleed when you cut it.

1:24:05It doesn't get damaged. It doesn't get hurt. It is an eternal form that doesn't have those needs or fallibilities, I guess is the right word. So if in the Christian tradition, there is this place called heaven, which at least is sort of like a physical place that the spirit goes and lives out its days and you will be reunited. Admittedly, I'm not a Christian theologist, so I'm sure I'm getting some of this wrong. But there's at least in popular culture, there's the idea of you transcend into heaven. It's a place. There are people that you know and love. You're reunited. So there's a sense of recreating still the physical world just in a non-physical form.

1:24:44It's what, at least in design circles, you call skeuomorphic. So you're taking what you know, and even though you're trying to imagine something completely different, you tend to cram it in to the same thing, right? So we imagine it in clouds and stuff like that. What's that version in the Vedic tradition? Yeah, so the Vedic tradition is there is an eternal divine relationship with the supreme being, and that in this space, everyone has that unique experience and unique relationship with each other and divinity. So would you meet Rathi again in that space? Hopefully if we both make it back. Yeah, Rathi's definitely going back.

1:25:24I take that back. Yeah, Rathi's good. But not necessarily as my partner. Not as the way I see her here. As a completely different version to what I see here. Because this is just simply one lifetime on a notch of lifetimes. And does that at all inform your marriage? That informs our marriage in the beautiful sense of the detachment with the love, in the sense of there's a feeling of, I love this person. I'm so glad I found them in this lifetime to do this life with, to serve in this way, to have this impact, to choose to want a better humanity, to leave it a better, happier, healthier place, to leave it a more healed place.

1:26:10that unites us in a profound way that I couldn't have with anyone else who didn't feel that way about it. And at the same time, it detaches me from recognizing, you know, this isn't everything either. And that's okay. Like it's, you know, let's not make this the be all and end all of everything either. Like this is just one experience. It's one aspect. And so I think there's this beautiful connection, but then healthy detachment that comes from both. And the ultimate understanding that she's not my property. She does not belong to me. I don't own her. And that she's on her own journey too. And that that journey is the most important journey that I'm supporting her on.

1:26:52And this journey is the most important journey she's supporting me on beyond all the other stuff that we're doing together. Like that's the journey we've committed to. So I think it has a profound impact on how we conduct our lives. It stops you from snipping the flower. Absolutely. And even though me and you have very different overall, and that's why I've always found fascinating to sit down with you, even though me and you have very different systems of overall belief or philosophy of what our container is of how we view life, we approach life far more similarly than many people I know. I consider myself to be highly, and as you say in the book, we have fight styles, we have the relationship roles.

1:27:33There's so much tactical, practical stuff in the book because that's how I view life too. I view life as highly strategic, but with a spiritual lens. And I think that it's, I find that really interesting how we're both trying to approach life through strategy, through systems, through processes, despite having, you know, me having a much more of a philosophical and I guess intangible view of reality. Do you know Donald Hoffman? I don't. As in from the Hoffman process? No. No, I don't know what that is. So this may be why, although you probably push back on this. So as somebody who's agnostic, meaning I literally just don't know.

1:28:12I have no idea what the truth is. I don't think anyone does. And I kind of live with that. Like I, people always ask me like, where do you see us? And I'm like, I don't know either. But I'm having read the theology and spirituality and the modern day, new age, everything that I have. I'm betting on this. And so it's simply a hypothesis. And I'm very open about that. I'm very cool with that because I just think life is a hypothesis. Pretty much everything I do every day is a hypothesis. There's no genuine truth that I can say that I know for a fact that this is what happens when this happens, including doing this interview, including writing this book.

1:28:52What comes from it is so different and so diverse than you could expect. So I live my life in a hypothesis. So I've studied plenty of books and researched and spoken to people and sat with teachers and sat with masters. And I've come up with what I believe is my hypothesis based on that experience. and I think everyone's entitled to their hypothesis and that's why I don't consider myself, with you I always end up talking about some of my own beliefs or values or philosophies that I identify with but why I don't preach them or why I don't impart them on others is because that's not my goal, right?

1:29:26Like my goal is to help people navigate reality in what we can see, feel and hear and then I have my own set of beliefs and values that guide my moral compass but those are not the ones I'm imparting. Those are not what people are being exposed to because I see them as two separate things. My compass on a deeper level is different to the work I'm doing in the world to help people navigate this. This is all based on fact and truth and experience and reality. The book is based on that. Think Like a Monk is based on that. But the beliefs that I have are a hypothesis. Those are not the ones I'm sharing.

1:29:59I love that. Where can people follow you as you explore your hypothesis? The best place right now is 8rulesoflove.com. That is the place to find my new book, Eight Rules of Love, which will guide you through everything from finding love, keeping love, dealing with heartbreak, and then finding love again. That would be the best place to find me right now. I love it. Yeah. Thank you.

1:30:31This is an ad by BetterHelp. We've all had that epic rideshare experience. halfway through your best friends, and they know your aspirations to go find yourself in Portugal. It's human. We're all looking for someone to listen, but not everyone is equipped to help. With over a decade of experience, BetterHelp matches you with the right therapist. See why they have a 4.9 rating out of 1.7 million client session reviews. Visit BetterHelp.com for 10 % off your first month. This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given.

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1:31:51Subject to credit approval. Terms apply. This is Jay Shetty from On Purpose. If you've ever felt off balance, Sometimes a change of scenery is the best reset. Delta invited four creators to explore one idea. What if travel isn't just movement, but recharging in motion? And the results? Based on their Aura Ring sleep scores, everyone met the day feeling more rested. And a sense of clarity stayed long after the trip. With Delta, fly and live better. Explore the whole journey on Delta's YouTube channel. This is an iHeart Podcast.