Alison Wood Brooks: The Science Behind Great Conversations

17:33Alison Wood Brooks:But that goes against both our instincts to be like, oh, I need to be like compelling and resolute. And it goes against many decades, I think, of sort of negotiation advice.

17:44Jay Shetty:How do you feel more safe in a conversation? And how do you help someone else feel more safe? Because it seems like that's what we're all looking for.

17:53Alison Wood Brooks:It's a really virtuous goal. I think it is sort of one of the main goals. It's the K of the talk framework is kindness. And it really, the goal is that you're making people feel safe and like you sincerely care about them. And you want to learn about them, not to exploit them later, not to use them and the information they're sharing with you, but because you actually want to know them, because you want to reach this point of mutual understanding and shared reality. How do you make people feel that way? Listen to them. Validate them. Continue to ask questions. And then over time, over the course of many conversations, you show with your actions that I'm not going to use that against you.

18:35Alison Wood Brooks:I'm not going to exploit you. I love you. And that's the thing. The world isn't changed in the context of within one conversation. In our real relationships, a relationship is a repeated sequence of conversations over time. and you can show someone that they actually are safe when you think about that unfolding over time.

18:56Jay Shetty:I think sometimes today, people don't have the ability to not have expectations of others. I.e., most people have an agenda with the people that they meet. And I was really fortunate. I mean, my monk teacher, who's 75 today, whenever he'd interact with people, because he genuinely wanted nothing from them and needed nothing from them, Yes. He demonstrated to us how he never asked for anything, never wanted anything. He simply wanted to serve and help. And that became for a lot of his students and for us, the way we functioned in conversation. And even a lot of my relationships today are not relationships where I've ever asked for anything.

19:33Jay Shetty:Yes. Because I didn't want to become friends with someone so I could get something out of them. I just really enjoyed their company or enjoyed their spirit, whatever it may have been. I found oftentimes, though, that people often use those things as techniques to get something out of you. So they maybe do one nice conversation, but then the next time they meet you, they ask for something.

19:51Alison Wood Brooks:Manipulation. Yeah.

19:52Jay Shetty:Or they work their way up and then they make it not realizing that actually, if they never asked for anything, I'd probably offer it anyway.

19:58Alison Wood Brooks:That's right.

19:58Jay Shetty:Because I want to help someone that I care about. And often I find my best friendships are where I just feel I'm hanging out with someone that I really enjoy with. And then I'll be like, wait a minute, do you know so-and-so? I think that'd be great for your business. And it becomes a natural result of having a genuine relationship.

20:14Alison Wood Brooks:Because you want to help them.

20:15Jay Shetty:I feel like anyone who's helped me in my career or my work has helped me because of that, not because I've always been like, can you help me with this? And I'm trying to manipulate a way in. And even people that I choose to help, I don't feel manipulated. If I feel manipulated, I actually pull back quite a bit and I'll be like, oh God, this feels unsafe going back to that point. How do we start living from that place? Because I think we all feel we need to do something to get something and we need to learn to ask for what we want. So what's that balance? Walk me through that.

20:42Alison Wood Brooks:It's a very interesting empirical question, actually, of like what percentage of the population is moving through the world with this more instrumental mindset of like, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to sort of pretend to be nice to you so that in the next conversation or the third conversation, I can actually ask for what I want versus people who move through the world who sincerely are trying to deliver to other people what they need, whether that's fun and laughter and having a good time together, learning about them, making them feel known and understood. Almost as a value in my life, I believe that that second scenario is ideal.

21:22Alison Wood Brooks:It's how everyone should be trying to move through the world. Often when I hear people talk about networking, this word of networking, it's almost like they're looking for like tips of like, how do I trick people into liking me? How do I trick people into thinking I'm smart? How do I convince them to hire me? I just think that mindset is completely broken. Imagine you went to any event, a party or specifically a networking event, and your only goal was to learn as much as you could about the people there and specifically learn about what other people need so that then you can go back in your life and think, how could I actually do things that will help people get what they need?

22:06Alison Wood Brooks:My friend, Mike Norton, who's also a professor, always says he's like, the best way to network is just to like do great things. And then people want to be with you. And then you're in a position to actually help them. It's not about having these tricky conversations where you're like convincing people to like you within the course of one conversation. It's just not how relationships work.

22:26Jay Shetty:I agree. Yeah. It's not a business card. No. It's not the exchange of details. No. It's none of that. I actually think about this gentleman who works with us in one of our companies. And when I met him, he showed me an ad that he'd made for one of our products. So my wife and I own Juni, which is our sparkling tea company. And he came up to me at a meet and greet and showed me an ad that he'd made. And it was so good. And I introduced him to my team immediately. And now we work with him. His name's Antoine. and it was because he'd already gone out of his way to make something really cool he wasn't just like i'm a fan of what you're doing i love what you're doing please book me to do work it was like i went and did something yeah and he showed me the work it was brilliant he's talented and so i was like okay great let me introduce you my team and we'll get you working on things behind the scenes and so that to me was the best form of networking i'd ever experienced because it was proof in what he was saying.

23:23Alison Wood Brooks:It's so many things. He's shown you his skill. He's shown you that he is able to think about what other people need and not just think about it and anticipate it, but actually do it. That was effortful, that he was willing to put in time to do something to help you. And then he was courageous. He was courageous enough to come up and say, hey, I built this thing. That's so vulnerable to go up to someone else and be like, I love what you're doing. And I love it so much that I did this thing for you. Several things like that have happened in my life, too. And it is just beautiful. It's mind blowing.

23:56Alison Wood Brooks:You immediately want to work with them, be friends with them, know them, not because you're like, oh, they're going to make more commercials for me, though they will. But because you're like, I can't wait to watch you use that superpower with other people. I want to be near your glow and watch you be awesome over and over again. And I'm going to admire you so much as you do it. Like bring your gifts into my orbit. And it's not because he walked up and gave you some like insincere compliment or something.

24:23Jay Shetty:What's more important, being interesting or being interested? Interested.

24:28Alison Wood Brooks:With an exclamation point. We talked a bit about topic prep, thinking ahead about what you could talk about or should talk about. That's before a conversation. Once you're in it, But really all that matters is being interested in the other person. And there's this beautiful truth that even if you have no idea what to talk about, all you need to do is ask questions and keep asking questions. a big mistake that a lot of people make is they're really proud of themselves for asking one question. They let the other person answer. And then they either turn the conversation back to themselves or they move on from it, right?

25:05Alison Wood Brooks:Like they let the revelation, they let the disclosure die there. The really wonderful conversationalists know to ask the next question. Search for the treasure and what they've said and then ask about it. What did they seem unsure about? What did they seem excited about in that answer? What was confusing to you in there? and like keep diving into that. When you keep asking follow-up questions, the conversation gets so deep and so interesting and weird and exciting so quickly.

25:32Jay Shetty:You just said the word treasure there. And that's almost what it feels like, that you're mining, you're looking for what resonates with the other person. Yes. And I think a lot of us are scared of saying something that doesn't resonate or asking a question that doesn't resonate. So if you ask a question that falls flat, you kind of retreat.

25:50Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah.

25:51Jay Shetty:How do we recognize that conversation is okay to go back and forth and you don't have to get it right every time? Because I think there's a sense of every time someone stops talking, it's a rejection or every time someone doesn't get excited about your question, it's failure. What do we do with that kind of self-judgment that's going on?

26:06Alison Wood Brooks:A conversation is more like a journey. It's almost like you're trying to find then if you land on a moment where both people are excited and interested, you should celebrate that so deeply. There are so many conversations that never hit that point. So instead of feeling like, oh, it's a failure, I asked this question, they don't seem excited. Oh, God, it's over. focus on actually, oh, if we can find a moment that actually works, you've experienced a small miracle. More conversations have these moments, these little flops and lulls and collisions, and it's just messy business. When you start studying transcripts of conversations at very large scale, you start to realize how messy they really are.

26:44Alison Wood Brooks:It's not just that you're failing to raise things that are interesting to the other person, which, by the way, is impossible. How the other person's going to get excited about. It's like you're talking over each other. You maybe get excited about another thing and then you both get distracted and you go somewhere else. You collide. You forget. You might circle back. Transcripts look more like a train wreck than like the tidy scripts that we see on sitcoms or in movies. And so I think just getting more comfortable and more aware that that's how natural dialogue unfolds helps us find acceptance when we have these little moments of panic of like, oh, shoot, well, that fell flat.

27:24Alison Wood Brooks:Just move on. Next play only.

27:26Jay Shetty:You just said that the way we see in movies or in TV shows, and I wonder whether that's what's impacting us so much because we forget that what we're watching, which is a great conversation, was fully scripted and acted out by two people who've learned that script and now are performing that script. But we watch that and we think, God, they've got so much chemistry.

27:48Alison Wood Brooks:And they're gorgeous and they're delivering it perfectly and you forget that they had 30 takes to do it. I'm gonna push this even further. It's not just scripted television and movies. It's also our culture of media, even podcasting. There are so many ways that we convey unrealistic expectations of live dialogue that it's so easy to forget or not know that real conversations are incredibly messy. You're listening to podcasts that, you know, gaps have been taken out. Things have been revised. Speech has been sped up. When you watch a movie, this script has been agonized over for years. And then the recording of it and the acting of it was agonized over.

28:33Alison Wood Brooks:And then the editing of it was agonized over. So it's actually very rare to see live dialogue anywhere except in your own life. We have a first row seat to all of our own failings and stumbles and collisions. And then we look outward and we see these like beautiful, perfect, thought provoking conversations that give us unrealistic expectations.

28:57Jay Shetty:What are your top three techniques for small talk?

29:01Alison Wood Brooks:First of all, acceptance. Okay, small talk is not to be avoided or dreaded. Small talk is a very important place to start a conversation. It's a social ritual. It's how we meet a stranger. It's how we meet back up with people we haven't seen in a long time. Even people we saw this morning, when we see them in the evening and we say, how was your day? It's this way of saying, okay, we're in conversation now. Let's find some common ground. The mistake that people make isn't doing small talk. It's that they stay there way too long. They fail to move up what we call this topic pyramid towards topics that are more personalized, spicy, interesting, exciting.

29:42Alison Wood Brooks:So you maybe are talking about the weather, and then you talk about it for like two, three, four, five turns of the conversation that's too much. You can start there, but your goal should be to move away from it as quickly as possible. It's hot outside. Do your kids like the heat? Do you like the heat? What's wrong? What's hard about the heat for you? You live in the city. Do you get sweaty on the way to work? Right. Like ground it.

30:03Jay Shetty:My curly hair.

30:04Alison Wood Brooks:Curly hair. Me too. Like the humidity goes crazy. All of a sudden it's more personal. And then you can go to a weird, take it to a weird place. Right. Like I have to wear my hair up when it's this humid because it would be just a disaster on camera. Right. Whatever. It takes a little bit of courage to move away from that sort of mundane small talk, but you have to do it. So acceptance and then push yourself to move on quickly. Bit number two, advice number two, we have to go back to this idea of topic prep. Having even just one good topic idea helps you do that task of moving away quickly, right?

30:38Alison Wood Brooks:Like, oh yeah, I meant to ask Jay, like, what has he learned from hosting this podcast about conversation? Or what part of his self does he feel like is least represented on these podcast episodes, You can think ahead about questions you think your partner is going to find fun to answer. And then advice number three is ask the next question, follow up. How about the weather? They answer. You've got to dive in deeper, quicker, faster on whatever their answer is. Curly hair. Have you ever tried straightening your hair? You've got to go there. So ask the follow up question.

31:12Jay Shetty:Does that mean we should always be the ones trying to lead the conversation? because a lot of people may not have these skills. So is it healthier to go in and think, I'm going to try and lead this?

31:22Alison Wood Brooks:It's such a great question. This is one that my students work on in my class a lot. The balance between leading and following. It's such an interesting game that we play when we're leading and following. Sometimes there are conversations where the norm, the expectation is very clear. You know, I come on here and we expect that you're mostly going to be asking me questions. By the way, I'm much more comfortable asking people questions than answering them. Everybody's all over the map with that. But leading versus following, you should be prepared to lead. It doesn't mean that you're actually going to do that once you're in the conversation.

31:57Alison Wood Brooks:If you're talking to someone who clearly doesn't know what to say, they're anxious, they're not taking the conversation somewhere, they're not taking the lead, then you should be ready to take on that mantle yourself and do it, right? Okay, we're going to talk about World Cup. Let's go. If, though, someone comes in and they're in crisis, they clearly have something on their mind, something they're dying to talk to you about, and they're going right for it, we also need to work on our restraint and be excellent listeners and be willing to follow. Many of us are more comfortable being leaders, topic leaders, and some people are more comfortable being followers.

32:33Alison Wood Brooks:And when we're pushed to fulfill the role that we're less comfortable with, it can feel hard.

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33:18Jay Shetty:Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com forward slash podcast. That's indeed.com forward slash podcast Terms and conditions apply Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs This episode is brought to you by State Farm We talk a lot about intentional decision making And that extends to the practical stuff too Like making sure your coverage actually works for your life State Farm is there to meet you where you are And they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions Talk to a State Farm agent today To learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan.

33:55Jay Shetty:Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Evening, buyer's remorse. Buy a new car? I'll be moving in. Let's get started.

34:15Alison Wood Brooks:Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana.

34:19Jay Shetty:You what?

34:19Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it.

34:23Jay Shetty:So there's no...

34:24Alison Wood Brooks:No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyers rejoice. I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com. This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app. The sooner you start investing, the more potential you have to build your money. Even for beginners, SoFi makes it simple with an easy-to-use app to get you going. SoFi is offering up to$1 ,000 in stock when you open and fund a SoFi self-directed brokerage account. Learn more at SoFi.com slash Spotify.

35:01Alison Wood Brooks:Brokerage offer through SoFi Securities LLC. Member FINRA slash SIPC. Terms apply. All need to work on being great at both of those things.

35:10Jay Shetty:How do you become a better listener? What is a good listener? Like, let's really break that down for people. Like, what are the one, two, three things someone needs to do to actually be a better listener?

35:21Alison Wood Brooks:Let's talk about the stages of listening first. Stage number one, you're taking in information from your partner, the sound of their voice, the content of their words, and what they look like, visual. And it's not just your partner, it's the whole environment all around them, right? I'm hearing an air conditioner in the background. I'm seeing you nodding. I see beautiful decor, right? We're taking in all this sensory information. Step two, we're processing a subset of it. We actually can't process deeply all of that information. And so our minds are quite good at ignoring a door that just slammed or the ambient noise of an air conditioning unit.

35:57Alison Wood Brooks:And we try and focus on the things that spark our attention, that spark our excitement, that we're searching for, that the other person seems excited about. That curation process of what we focus on matters. in live dialogue there's a third stage that's so amazing and it's that we can express what we've

36:16Jay Shetty:heard and thought about back to our partner so that should be our first attempt after listening

36:21Alison Wood Brooks:to someone the first thing to just say and make people everyone feel more comfortable is like listening is super effortful we are bombarded by information and nobody is able to actually pay attention 100 % of the time. In our research, we found that people's minds wander at least 25 % of the time during live dialogue.

36:39Jay Shetty:Only 25 %?

36:41Alison Wood Brooks:And I think it's way higher. So in this study, it was self-reported. So people know that say admitting that they were not listening is not like socially acceptable. And even then they're saying, oh, I wasn't listening just now 25 % of the time, especially for people with attentional issues like me. I think the number is way, way, way, way higher. So mind wandering is incredibly common. And at the same time, we have this pressure to pretend like we're listening consistently 100 % of the time, which leads to this weird thing where your partner might feel like you're listening to them, but you actually didn't.

37:13Alison Wood Brooks:And that sort of comes to light later. So that's the first piece is that listening is really effortful. Put in the effort to do it. Give grace to yourself and others when your mind wanders and there are breaks and you're listening. Okay. The second piece is use your words to show someone that you did the hard work of listening. And in order to do that, you have to repeat back what someone else has said. You can validate what they've said. You can ask a follow-up question based on what they just said or what they said earlier. In a group, you can paraphrase. So, you know, oh, I heard Jay say this and I heard Paige say this.

37:50Alison Wood Brooks:Together, it seems like there's a tension between this and this. So paraphrasing. And then my favorite is callbacks.

37:57Jay Shetty:Explain that.

37:58Alison Wood Brooks:You call back to a small idea or more solar phrase that they said, your partner, earlier in the conversation or earlier in your relationship. They're just like scrumptious. It's like when we think of people who are charismatic, it's often because they're great at callbacks. They put in the effort to listen. They're clever enough to process it and hold it in their mind for a while, like you're going on to other topics. And then they're smart enough and caring enough to bring it up again. Like, oh, that reminds me that you told me that you're going to this World Cup game, right? Like bring it up again.

38:33Alison Wood Brooks:It makes the other person feel so heard because they were. And often it's kind of funny and clever, right? It's like surprising, like, oh, yeah. It can be a very nice way to close a conversation. Someone tells you about their guitar lessons at the beginning. You talk for 30 minutes. At the end, you can be like, I loved this. I loved seeing you. I can't wait to hear about your guitar lessons next time. Or like, good luck. You can struggle through it. It's going to be great. So callbacks. Callbacks are just incredibly powerful.

38:59Jay Shetty:That's brilliant. What a great masterclass. And what I love about what you said is this idea of repeating back what someone's saying. Yes. You know, I want to clarify for people, and I know you mean this, it's not repeating back exactly what they said. Yeah, it's trying to show, not even trying to show. Sometimes it's just checking. Yes, yes. That's what I do. I do a lot of that on the podcast. It's checking. Hey, this is what I'm hearing because, and this, I'm going to mirror it now. What I am actually hearing from you is that it's presence, memory, and attention. But I would argue, and Alison, you know this better than anyone, you reset this.

39:36Jay Shetty:Those are three of the hardest things in the world right now. So hard. Because TikTok has made our presence three seconds. Our attention spans because of our phones are maybe 30 seconds. And our memory has been weak for so long that people struggle to remember what they did last week, let alone what someone has said three months ago. It's almost like we're fighting a battle that feels impossible.

40:01Alison Wood Brooks:The 25 % number of our minds are wandering away from our conversations is when people have no device on them. and they are actually sitting face-to-face with eye contact with each other, now add a phone or a computer and the pull of the screen and you're diverting your eyes all the time here, that number is up to 90, 95%. The magnitude of disruption and replacement of attention from these devices and screens is wild. And I think behavioral scientists have not measured it well yet, and we certainly don't know the consequences of it for our own mental health and social consequences. As I was riding in the cab here, I started counting how many people I saw in the streets of New York not on a phone.

40:52Alison Wood Brooks:There are hundreds, thousands of people that I saw just on this ride. I think I saw two that were not looking down at a screen. I deeply don't want to be anti-tech because I get it. There's so many things that are helpful about it. And yet the thing that I think we're not talking about enough and that I'm most troubled by is this attention piece. Our attention is so often pulled to our screens. Listening is already so hard to do. I just am so deeply concerned that nobody is listening to anyone now.

41:27Jay Shetty:As someone who you said yourself you have attentional challenges, what do you do? in order to be more attentive and present in the moment. I felt you've been extremely present ever since you walked in. This conversation is flowing. We were flowing even before we started recording. What are you doing differently? Because I think a lot of people listening will be like, Jay, I really struggle with attention. Alison, I'm really confused about this because I try and be present and I'm making eye contact, but it's not, what do we do to help people who are really struggling with that and want to be better?

41:57Alison Wood Brooks:I find that the only thing that really helps me be very present with my children with my husband, with my friends, is to not have it with me, not have the temptation, physically have it separated from yourself, even more so than sort of putting rules on it of like their silence and focus mode. No, no, it's literally the physical distance. My friend Angela Duckworth, amazing psychologist, has this wonderful paper showing that for students, the amount of physical distance between them and their personal electronic device is linearly related to their test scores. Like the further away it is, the better you do in school.

42:37Alison Wood Brooks:And that's just students. I think this very much applies to all of us. The further the temptation is away, the attention suck is away from you, the easier it is to really do this. And even here, like this, your mind is going to wander like crazy. I'm working really hard because I sincerely want to hang on your every word. And still your fantastical mind is going off and thinking of all this crazy stuff. And that's normal.

43:05Jay Shetty:What about in terms of, sometimes I've seen this with people that they struggle with this and people say this to me where even if they're at dinner and they put their phone away, but now they're distracted by someone else's conversation or what someone else is wearing. And the person opposite them is just like, hey, I'm right here. And then even like someone's at a park, like there's a cute little dog over there, but you're trying to have a really meaningful discussion. Like, what do you do in that moment where you've even put your phone aside, but now everything else feels more interesting than the person sitting in front of you?

43:32Alison Wood Brooks:The world is much more of an interesting carnival when you're paying attention to it. One thing that I think can be kind of fun is label it, describe what is pulling your attention to your partner and say, I see this very cute baby behind you and they are doing a very cute thing right now. Like, make them part of it so that you're sharing, you have this shared reality and you're sharing in that distraction and then show them that you are going to fight the temptation to look at. Just be like, that baby's so cute. Let's get back to, you know, whatever. Let's get back to your guitar lessons, right?

44:04Alison Wood Brooks:So that you're almost narrating. It's almost admitting, hey, I'm distracted, but I love you. This is adorable and notable, noteworthy. You're in that with me. And now let's get back to this. You can say that out loud.

44:17Jay Shetty:I love that because I think that's the worst thing is when someone notices you drifting off.

44:22Alison Wood Brooks:And you're pretending like you're not. It's the pretending. It's the lying about it, like trying to convince them that you're listening attentively when you're actually watching the game behind them.

44:32Jay Shetty:Correct. That's that classic show.

44:33Alison Wood Brooks:That's what pisses you the other person off. Yes. If you think about the two modes of failure, there's one where you are listening and they think you're not. And the other quadrant is you're not listening, but they think you are. Both of those are problematic. And so the goal should be, I actually want to be listening to you. And I want you to believe that I'm listening to you. That's the sort of life that we're trying to get to. Both of those things are quite hard.

44:59Jay Shetty:They are hard. And you want to feel that the other person's also present and listening to you too.

45:04Alison Wood Brooks:If you're going to put in so much work to be with them in this moment, to be present, to be hanging on their every word, to be caring about their needs and listening and thinking about what they're saying, if they're not reciprocating, it really is almost hurtful.

45:18Jay Shetty:Yeah, it is hurtful. I think people feel quite upset and offended by that.

45:23Alison Wood Brooks:It's disrespectful.

45:24Jay Shetty:Yeah, because yeah, someone's really bringing their presence, their time and their energy, which is the most valuable currency today, I feel.

45:31Alison Wood Brooks:It is because it's scarce.

45:33Jay Shetty:What's the difference between a good question and a great question?

45:37Alison Wood Brooks:I think a lot of people obsess about what question should I ask? It's like we're spending so much of our time and attention obsessing about the first turn of a conversation or the first turn of a topic pasture, and we don't think enough about everything that comes after it. So what I care about more is not where you start, but do you ask a follow-up question? Do you listen and then ask the next thing, ask the next question? I'd like to almost, like, push back on this idea of that there are good versus great questions. A great question is one that shows someone you heard them and that you want to know more.

46:17Alison Wood Brooks:A great question is one that shows you are sincerely listening and care to learn the contents of another person's mind. A great question is one that makes the other person think differently in a way that they haven't thought before. That's a great question.

46:33Jay Shetty:Sometimes the question that you think is the perfect question doesn't land with someone. Yeah. Because their psyche doesn't see that as interesting or fascinating. And now you think, wait a minute, I just failed. And you backtrack, not realizing that it's not about that. Like I sometimes ask quite basic questions when I meet people because I feel comfortable in them. Of course. And I'll always ask someone, I'm like, oh, where are you from? How do you know the host? Have you been to this party before? And these are really basic questions that are not that interesting. but to me they build up a sense of safety with each other and a sense of comfort which then can lead to a deeper question whereas I'm not going to lead with tell me the most exciting thing you've done this week and someone can get quite intimidated by that.

47:18Alison Wood Brooks:That's so intense just yesterday I watched this on the street interview segment about the questions that people open conversations with and an adorable lovely older woman said I've been trying to open my conversations by saying what's the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to you.

47:35Jay Shetty:Oh, my gosh.

47:35Alison Wood Brooks:Can you imagine? Maybe you get to a point in a conversation or a relationship where maybe maybe and the time needs to be right. But I think it's just let's all stop obsessing about what's your opener and obsess a lot more about what's the follow up. What's the trajectory? Where does it take you? Yeah, I think, you know, how are you? How was your walk over here is a great place to start. Listen to their answer. And then, like, you know, get details, get details or start with a compliment. Hey, I love your earrings? Where did you get them? Great. Great place to start.

48:06Jay Shetty:I also think that that's where real listening comes in. That's right. Because if I said to you, hey, I love your earrings, where are they from? And then you told me, then I'd be like, oh, tell me more about that store. I don't know it. And now we're actually talking. Whereas if I follow up, oh, your earrings look great. Where are they from? And then I have another package three questions.

48:22Alison Wood Brooks:What's the most traumatic thing that ever happened to you?

48:24Jay Shetty:Or even if it's like, well, tell me about what you do for work. It's almost like I didn't listen to you. Because if I actually listened to you, then we just talk about your earrings for like 20 minutes potentially or where that takes us rather than having to have like seven different topics, which I don't really want.

48:39Alison Wood Brooks:And what's really fascinating about good follow-up questions is that they're like stealth topic switchers. So as we go on and we're talking about the earrings, you never know when I'm going to be like, actually, I've only worn these earrings in really special moments in my life. Or you might say like, oh, I feel really nervous when I walk into J.Crew. like those stores and the cashiers make me feel like they're judging me right like you don't know when someone's going to offer a really vulnerable morsel of information that like a conversation is like a decision tree right like the the branches of where things can go are infinite and just because you start at this decision point doesn't mean you're not going to wind your way way down to gosh i've really been struggling with my boss at work and it didn't matter where you started

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50:37Alison Wood Brooks:Conversation is profoundly co-constructed. It is not a performance. You can't control the other person, but it does make it really hard when someone isn't giving you much in return. I coach my students to ask this question that you can ask any time, which is, can you tell me more about that or can you say more about that? If someone's not giving you enough, try and nudge them to give you more rather than getting angry, annoyed, or feeling awkward. Sometimes people need permission. In fact, almost all the time people need permission to share, to try something weird, right? Like conversation takes a lot of courage.

51:18Alison Wood Brooks:It's these little moments of courage. And if people aren't feeling courageous, they might give you a one-word answer. So give them a little courage.

51:25Jay Shetty:I'd agree with you. I think sometimes we think people are not responding because they don't find us interesting. That's right. Or they're rejecting us or they're reserved. And the truth is they need permission to feel interesting. So when you say, tell me more or go on.

51:39Alison Wood Brooks:You seem like there's more behind that answer. Exactly. Right? Like ask for it.

51:43Jay Shetty:And that person now gets to feel safe, going back to your point earlier, where they feel, oh, this person actually cares. Yeah. And that's completely different to thinking the first question should have been the question that made them feel that. That's right. I want to try something with you because I know that you're really into conversation games.

51:58Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah, I am.

51:59Jay Shetty:You've created your own. I wanted to do one where I'm going to ask you very simple questions, but I want you to turn them into a conversation.

52:08Alison Wood Brooks:I love this.

52:09Jay Shetty:So I meet you. Alison, how are you?

52:12Alison Wood Brooks:I'm doing so well, Jay. I'm so, it's the honor of a lifetime to be in this beautiful space with you today. How are you doing?

52:19Jay Shetty:Oh, that's so sweet. I'm so touched by that. I'm really grateful. I'm happy you're here. I was really excited to have you here and I've been wanting to learn from you for a long time. I thought your book was fantastic. Congratulations. I can't wait for everyone to read talk.

52:33Alison Wood Brooks:Can I tell you that writing a book is very hard?

52:35Jay Shetty:I believe it. I've done two. So, and I just finished my third. So I totally get you. Right? Tell me about what was hard about writing the book.

52:41Alison Wood Brooks:Well, I think for me, one of the hardest things is I've been working on this research for almost 20 years. And as a scientist, you're trained to focus on large scale data. So I think about, okay, what are 20 ,000 people saying to each other? But that's not what connects with people. I think most people kind of like don't give a shit about the science, okay? Hot take. What they do connect with are stories. And I do too, right? That's why we love movies. It's why we love reading people's biographies. So what I found hard in writing this book was taking the amazing lessons that we've learned from the scientific research and then finding stories that help show those principles in practice, in action.

53:25Alison Wood Brooks:And what's so hard about conversation in particular, you need the whole transcript in order to really tell the story of a conversation. And you're trying to show like one thing at a time. If I want to talk about the power of compliments, I need a conversation that shows compliments and doesn't distract in other ways. That was really, really, really hard. What was hard about yours?

53:50Jay Shetty:So then I would start talking about mine. So like, what did you do good there? What did we do badly? What did we do well?

53:56Alison Wood Brooks:I love that you asked what was hard. And I felt like you really wanted to know. I like breaking out of this sort of expert role. I almost felt like I was able to enact being actually me. And so being asked about my perspective as a person, as an author, as a writer, feels very different than, hey, Allison, give us your best advice for having better conversations. That felt really good. And it's like you gave me permission to share.

54:25Jay Shetty:Right, right.

54:26Alison Wood Brooks:What did you think? Do you think it was good?

54:28Jay Shetty:When I asked you, how are you? Your answer was so genuine and truthful and real that I felt more present in the moment.

54:37Alison Wood Brooks:Good.

54:38Jay Shetty:As opposed to if you just said, yeah, I'm good. How are you?

54:40Alison Wood Brooks:Was it a little shocking? Was it surprising?

54:43Jay Shetty:Yeah, for sure. Because I think we're so used to asking someone, how are you? And they go, yeah, good.

54:49Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah, fine.

54:50Jay Shetty:Yeah, sure.

54:50Alison Wood Brooks:I love surprising people with, I guess, not enthusiasm, but almost like an extremity of sincerity. Truly. I like to be very real with people, especially when they give you the gift of asking you about yourself.

55:05Jay Shetty:Yes. And I think you're spot on there. I think if we can answer that one question that we all get asked every day with a bit more depth, it will open up a whole new world of conversations. And I appreciate you don't want to do that with everyone. I appreciate you don't need to do that with every colleague, but at least one person a day. But maybe you could. Maybe you could.

55:23Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah, a little, I mean, on the margin, right? I think if I were being critical of the conversation we just had, something that I'm always working on, I have such a bias to answer things enthusiastically and sincerely that sometimes it keeps me from being honest about what's not going well in my life, right? Like sharing the hard stuff. And I think that is also very, very important for relationship development.

55:47Jay Shetty:You gave me a lot of self-awareness though. Like I felt like I got to understand you a bit.

55:51Alison Wood Brooks:Thanks.

55:52Jay Shetty:In terms of what you were saying about what you found hard about it and what your thoughts are on science versus story. Yes, yes, yes. And so when I was listening to that, I was like, oh, I understand the kind of thinker Alison is. She believes in the science, but she recognizes that she wants things to help people and impact people, which means she understands story, you know, and so -

56:11Alison Wood Brooks:You learned so much about me, Jen. Totally. Yeah. I feel so seen. It's such a simple answer.

56:16Jay Shetty:Yeah. Thanks. In such a simple moment. Salison, for the second question, I want to try something different. You're going to ask me the question, where are you from? Yeah. Which is a question that I think people ask each other, but I'm now going to play the role of someone who isn't interested or interesting or is feeling self-conscious. or is being reserved, or is just trying to figure out the day, or is feeling a bit shy today. And so I'm going to play that role. So I'm not going to be Jay. I'll just be this other character.

56:42Alison Wood Brooks:Hey, Jay. Where are you from?

56:44Jay Shetty:London.

56:46Alison Wood Brooks:London. Oh, my gosh. I've been to London a few times, and I find the cab so adorable. Did you love growing up in London?

56:53Jay Shetty:Yeah, it was okay.

56:54Alison Wood Brooks:Were your parents from London originally?

56:56Jay Shetty:My mom's from Yemen. My dad's from India.

56:59Alison Wood Brooks:Wow.

57:00Jay Shetty:She moved to London when she was 16 and my dad when he was about 28 or something.

57:03Alison Wood Brooks:Do they still live in London?

57:05Jay Shetty:Yeah, they do.

57:06Alison Wood Brooks:What neighborhood?

57:07Jay Shetty:North London.

57:08Alison Wood Brooks:North London. I said that as if I know the neighborhoods of London, which I don't. I'm so... Oh my gosh. How often do you get back to see them?

57:16Jay Shetty:Maybe twice a year, summer and Christmas.

57:18Alison Wood Brooks:Do you wish it was more? No, that's good. That's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

57:21Jay Shetty:I like... I travel a lot already, so... No, I miss them, of course. I love them, but summer and Christmas is good.

57:27Alison Wood Brooks:What do you miss most about London when you're not there?

57:31Jay Shetty:Definitely family, of course. Friends. All my best friends are there. I think London's one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

57:37Alison Wood Brooks:I interviewed at the London Business School when I was on the academic job market. And that building is right—the Hampstead Heath, is that what it's called? It was so beautiful. It's beautiful there, yeah. I went for a walk around that duck pond. And you know who I saw from a distance? The actress Elizabeth Moss.

57:56Jay Shetty:Oh, wow. Okay.

57:57Alison Wood Brooks:Who's in Handmaid's Tale. It was so vivid. It almost felt like a dream. I was in this like beautiful park and there's Elizabeth Moss. That's how I imagine much of living in London is like that, where it's just sort of lovely. Like all the time.

58:12Jay Shetty:Not where I grew up. Yeah, in those places. Yeah, not where I grew up. How was it?

58:17Alison Wood Brooks:What was it like where you grew up?

58:18Jay Shetty:It was a lot more rough. So I want to pause there because that was so good. So I had to try really hard to hold back.

58:23Alison Wood Brooks:I could tell.

58:23Jay Shetty:Because in the beginning, like I'm so used to like just being expressive and everything. So I had to really hold back. But what I really loved about what you did was your enthusiasm and your laughter and your self-deprecating humor, whatever it was, kind of broke me down. And it was very natural that it broke me down. It was like, I was genuinely laughing and I was genuinely responding. And so I thought that was really good because your enthusiasm and energy became contagious to me. and I find that a lot when I'm out is I'm okay being that person.

58:55Alison Wood Brooks:Yes.

58:56Jay Shetty:Because I realize I want to have a good time.

58:58Alison Wood Brooks:It's my favorite thing. I'm like, give me somebody who's not feeling the vibe and now it's on. Now I've got this challenge. How can I make this fun? For them, for us, and for me, right? Like when I encounter people who give one word answers or are clearly struggling and sometimes feeling anxious or angry or whatever, I'm like, okay, roll up the sleeves. Here we go. This is like, this is what I love because everyone needs permission. Everybody needs empowerment. Everybody needs a laugh. Nobody wants an interaction to be stilted or unfun. To me, I just love the challenge of how do we make this fun and rewarding, especially with people who are not seeming like they're ready to do that.

59:44Jay Shetty:Yes, absolutely. I love being able to showcase to people what this looks like in reality when I was shy or blocked off, when we were both inquisitive about each other. But I know you've created a lot of games as well for conversations that are research-backed. Could you introduce us to a couple that we can role-play now?

1:00:02Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah, so they're called talk time games. There's seven of them. Each one is so simple. You are practicing a very clear skill, and then you start with any random topic. Like we were saying, it doesn't matter where you start. So let's try the one. This is called Battle of the Nice Guys.

1:00:17Jay Shetty:Okay.

1:00:17Alison Wood Brooks:We're going to start at a topic. I'll let you know what the topic is in a moment. And as we do it, it's a normal conversation, but we're going to try and give each other as many compliments as we can that feel sort of natural. And then we'll say, okay, now we're done and we'll debrief it when it's over.

1:00:33Jay Shetty:Are we assuming we don't know each other that well or are we assuming that?

1:00:36Alison Wood Brooks:Let's do it like our real selves. So we know each other to the extent that we actually know each other just from this. So I'll start by saying, Jay, what do you love about podcasting?

1:00:48Jay Shetty:I love that I have an excuse to reach out to people I find fascinating and get to spend two hours to three hours with them. And I get to do this every single week. It's unbelievable.

1:01:00Alison Wood Brooks:I love how you lit up like you were like beaming as you said that. I can tell that you sincerely love that. And I love the word excuse. I wish everyone had an excuse or reason. to reach out to the people they admire and have a meaningful, long, nuanced conversation with them. That's why there's probably so many zillion podcasts in the world that don't have any viewers, because it's such an alluring and wonderful practice.

1:01:29Jay Shetty:Yeah, I think it's just fulfilling as a practice in and of itself, even if you weren't having anyone watch, because it was just a beautiful experience. But what about you, Alison? What What made you focus on conversation as your research and, of course, your book talk that you wrote on it? Why was conversation so gripping for you or why was it so?

1:01:50Alison Wood Brooks:I think many reasons. I'm an identical twin. And so I had this really weird, lucky life growing up with an exact copy of myself that I had to watch, sort of walk through the world and through the social world. When she would do things that were embarrassing, I'd be like, oh, I'm not going to do that. And then I would watch her be sort of hilarious or like blazingly competent and think like, oh, I can do that, too. It was aspirational. And then also you're just shoulder to shoulder with a best friend who's giving you feedback all the time. So it really is this very unique and lucky life. And I think I've almost devoted the rest of my life to helping other people try and experience that tight-knit shared reality.

1:02:33Alison Wood Brooks:It almost feels like I know what's possible in human-to-human relationships. And you can get there in your marriage, in your friendships, and with your work colleagues if you learn to relate to each other quite well.

1:02:49Jay Shetty:I really appreciate that you've taken something that was so meaningful to you in your relationship with the identical twin and wanted to give that to others. I think that's so admirable when someone has a special experience and then says. This isn't just something selfishly I want to have for myself. This is something I wish everyone else had. And I think that's such a beautiful gift to the world. So I love hearing that.

1:03:12Alison Wood Brooks:Thank you. It's true of what you're doing here too, right? Like you're saying, I love having the excuse to reach out to people. And that is, it's funny, and this is true of most things in the world. That's like a thing that's rewarding to you personally, but you're sharing it with just so many people that everyone else gets to delight in that connection and learn from that person and learn from that connection as well. It really is such an admirable plight thing that you're doing here. So thank you.

1:03:41Jay Shetty:Okay, so let's pause there. So that was really interesting to me.

1:03:45Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah?

1:03:46Jay Shetty:Yeah, because when we started it, it's called Battle of the Nice Guys.

1:03:50Alison Wood Brooks:Battle of the Nice Guys.

1:03:51Jay Shetty:I initially thought you'd start at something more surface level.

1:03:54Alison Wood Brooks:Yes, yes.

1:03:54Jay Shetty:But you went for something quite deep for me.

1:03:58Alison Wood Brooks:And you could start from soup. No, and I really liked it. We could have started at like ice cream, right? We could have started anywhere.

1:04:04Jay Shetty:No, but I liked that. It wasn't deep in the sense that it was heavy.

1:04:07Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah.

1:04:08Jay Shetty:It was just really thoughtful, which then inspired a more thoughtful compliment from me. So for example, if you had said, Jay, I like your shoes, I would have said, I love the color of your pants.

1:04:19Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah.

1:04:19Jay Shetty:And now we're in a battle of the nice guys based on something surface level. That's right. Which is cool. And it works. It actually makes you feel good.

1:04:28Alison Wood Brooks:A hundred percent. Surprisingly good. Oh, I love it.

1:04:30Jay Shetty:When someone tells me they're like, my page does it every day. It's like, I love that feeling. Like, that's cool. I'm into that. and that's a great compliment. Yeah. Because when you first said, let's play Battle of the Nice Guys, my thing, I was actually going to compliment the color of your pants because I think they're awesome. Thank you so much. I love the color. Thank you so much. But because you went more thoughtful, I was then challenged. To match. To match. That's right. And I think that for me is what I took away, which was if I had come back from you telling me how amazing it is that I have this excuse to reach out to people and I went, nice colored pants.

1:04:59Jay Shetty:Yes. It would now feel lopsided, I feel.

1:05:02Alison Wood Brooks:Yes.

1:05:03Jay Shetty:Right or not? Am I wrong or right? Interesting.

1:05:04Alison Wood Brooks:you can kind of, yes, and I think you can kind of play with it. Okay. So if we were -

1:05:09Jay Shetty:I was about to end going, and your earrings are really nice. Well, I was going to say, and you're gorgeous, right?

1:05:13Alison Wood Brooks:Like there's a playfulness that comes from matching and mismatching each other. It opens up possibilities.

1:05:20Jay Shetty:What's the wrong way of giving a compliment? Like what's the way we give compliments that is wrong?

1:05:25Alison Wood Brooks:Honestly, there's almost no wrong way to give a compliment. Everyone is so hungry for them. We need affirmation and love. We all just want to feel loved and admired. There's research on this. Even when a compliment is obviously insincere, it still makes the other person feel better. And it makes you feel better for giving it. Compliments are incredibly powerful. None of us are giving enough of them. End stop. Backhanded compliments are an exception. When you give a compliment like, the comment you made was really insightful just now, that makes you feel so good. If I said that idea was really insightful for a podcaster.

1:06:01Jay Shetty:Oh, God. Okay.

1:06:03Alison Wood Brooks:Like, when we give do flattery, it's almost like you always have some social comparison set in your mind. Probably you're like, wow, she's really interesting to talk to for a Harvard professor or like, wow, she's really insightful for a woman. Right. We should not verbalize those comparison sets because it undercuts the power of the compliment. And it could be a comparison to a social group, or it could be like, oh, you look really great compared to the last time I saw you last year. Or like, oh, your haircut looks so much better, right? You're comparing them to a previous version of themselves.

1:06:41Alison Wood Brooks:You can also do social comparison like, oh, your presentation was really good compared to pages, right? So there's all of these. We don't do comparisons. It undercuts the power of the compliment.

1:06:52Jay Shetty:That's so true. I know people who do that to me all the time. Oh, yeah. And it makes me repel.

1:06:58Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah.

1:06:58Jay Shetty:Like, I'm like, I don't like that energy. It doesn't feel good.

1:07:00Alison Wood Brooks:Social comparison is a very profound thing that our brains do automatically. It's not that it makes you a bad person that you're thinking it, but it's not effective to say it.

1:07:09Jay Shetty:Yeah.

1:07:10Alison Wood Brooks:Like, the whole point of giving a compliment is to make the other person feel good. And by saying that was an insightful comment for a podcaster, it's like, oh, no, it's you just completely, it's worse than an insult, actually.

1:07:22Jay Shetty:let's do a more uh like a aesthetic compliment right like let's let's show that part because sure i think that's something you would do immediately as you saw someone like for example uh the lady who so kindly hosts us here where we are shooting today she came to me this morning and said i love your outfit i was like i love your outfit and it was just it was more of an i don't know her that well to like thank her for her work or you know because we don't know each

1:07:46Alison Wood Brooks:other in that way can i say you i tell you i know that sound you're saying more surface level but i

1:07:50Jay Shetty:I don't mean that as a, yeah, I'm trying not to make that a negative.

1:07:54Alison Wood Brooks:No, I think it's a good, it's a good, this is a really good topic because a lot of sort of physical compliments have, feel very taboo to people these days, particularly in the workplace. You'll hear people say things like, don't comment on other people's appearance. Never.

1:08:09Jay Shetty:Yeah.

1:08:09Alison Wood Brooks:And then I'm like, yes, I understand. And at the same time, that is the core of almost every meaningful friendship and relationship is just us sort of like building each other up. Making each other feel great about this moment and what's going on in your world. You look great. You sound great. I believe in you. We have to grapple with that. I almost feel like the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of not giving enough compliments. If we're in a vacuum or no one saying nice things to each other because you're afraid of being canceled, it's doing real damage to potential connection.

1:08:44Jay Shetty:And I appreciate you correcting me, too, because I don't think surface level is even the right language.

1:08:49Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah.

1:08:49Jay Shetty:It's almost like more easeful, more accessible.

1:08:53Alison Wood Brooks:Maybe levity. It's just lighter.

1:08:55Jay Shetty:More lighter compliments. Yeah. That feel more day to day.

1:08:58Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah.

1:08:58Jay Shetty:Because if you saw me every day, you wouldn't tell me every day that what I do on the podcast is special or important. Never. Because it would be so hot.

1:09:06Alison Wood Brooks:If I saw you outside of this, I don't think I would ever ask you or say that to you. Yes, yes, yes. You know, I would just be like, dude, because I love that jacket. Yes, yes, right, right, yeah. That's how flattery plays out in our real lives.

1:09:16Jay Shetty:Yeah, absolutely. I genuinely love the color of those pants. Thank you so much, Jay. What kind of green is that? Thank you. I'm like, I can't even tell. I'm like, it's... What are we?

1:09:23Alison Wood Brooks:It's like a pine needly... Who knows? I don't know. Am I blending in with the chair?

1:09:28Jay Shetty:But you're not. That's the thing. It's like that green, like, just stands out. And then with the brown, it's so complimentary. Like it's really great.

1:09:35Alison Wood Brooks:I'm really into monochrome fashion. And so I was a little mad that I didn't have like a top that was the same green. But then I really would disappear. Then yeah.

1:09:44Jay Shetty:So I think it all worked out. What made you into monochrome fashion? Like, how did that come?

1:09:48Alison Wood Brooks:I think it goes back to my sort of like ADHD attentional issues. I really love simplicity and not having to think a lot. And so monochrome dressing looks so chic to me. I agree. And it's like you don't have to think about it. If you buy a coordinated set or a suit or an outfit that all goes together, you don't have to think about it. And it just looks so fabulous.

1:10:12Jay Shetty:Yes, yes, yes, yes. Love it.

1:10:14Alison Wood Brooks:Let's do the conversation. Let's do Battle of the Nice Guys and try and do lighter compliments. Yeah, let's do it. Were we already doing it? I couldn't even tell. Yeah, we were doing it. You were already doing it. Yeah, I did it.

1:10:23Jay Shetty:You did it. That was me doing it. That was real. It was real. It is real. No, no, no. It's fully genuine. I don't think, and that's partly what I'm saying is like, I would not compliment them if I didn't like them because that would be stupid. Like, as in, I don't think that lands. It was genuine. I think the color is unique. I think it is. I was interested as to why you like, I like fashion a lot. So I was interested into why you like monochromatic fashion.

1:10:45Alison Wood Brooks:What we're saying or we're doing now is playing conversation games, but it's really thought provoking to me that the blend between what, like what makes something a game, what makes something pretend versus not pretend. I think what these games actually do are just give you permission to practice. Once you're in it, you're not playing. You're being you, sort of workshopping a skill, but also just really connecting with somebody. And so this often happens to me where I can't tell where the game begins and ends. And I think now I'm going to sort of, wow, I'm getting emotional. I want kids to get that permission.

1:11:29Alison Wood Brooks:I want this to be happening in schools. It's mind-boggling to me that we don't teach conversation alongside reading, writing, and math. And all we need to do is three minutes a day of playing games that, turns out, are real connections with their classmates, with their coaches, with their teachers, and really learning skills that they're going to leave that classroom and use immediately. And the tips, the skills, the giving compliments, the admitting uncertainty, asking follow-up questions, prepping topics, they're not mind-blowing. They're not crazy. They're just things that all of us need to do and need to practice doing to develop those conversation skills over time.

1:12:22Alison Wood Brooks:And what's really wild is like, it will make your conversations better. Yes. But even more broadly, it will make your life better. It's the downstream consequences that actually matter. It starts with me saying, I love your jacket, which I really do. We call it a shacket, shirt jacket, jacket. So it starts with a tiny little ripple and the causal chain is long, that changes the nature of our relationship. It changes the likelihood that we're going to talk to each other in the future. Changes whether you're going to feel great later today talking to somebody else. It changes whether you're going to raise one of the ideas that we've talked about here when you're with your friends at the World Cup final.

1:13:04Alison Wood Brooks:It changes whether someone overhears you talking nicely to that friend at the World Cup final and talking about talk with them. maybe that creates a ripple of the people around you and like we work our way up this causal chain all the way to sort of community democracy starting with these tiny little moves of i like your jacket or tell me more about that that's what i find so beautiful about humanity is that we're so connected and these tiny micro decisions that we make that seem so small do have the power to accumulate and expand. And I think, I really think that's why we need to be teaching this in schools.

1:13:43Jay Shetty:It's so fascinating that the things we do all day, every day for the rest of our lives are the things we don't learn in school. And it's just shocking to me. I can't wrap my head around it. I know. That we're going to talk to people for the rest of our lives and listen to people for the rest of our lives. And there's no class on it. You're spot on. Talk to me about the best way to receive a compliment. Because I think we may be okay at giving compliments, but receiving compliments were pretty bad. So for example, I've learned over the years on how to receive compliments and conversation. But initially if you would have said, oh, that jacket's really nice.

1:14:15I would have been like, oh yeah.

1:14:17Jay Shetty:Yeah. Okay. I love your pants. And then your compliment is also less powerful because now you said, oh, nice jacket. I go, oh, nice top. And it's like, I didn't even let it land. Like I didn't, I didn't actually create a conversation. And I think that's what most of us do. Like I'll be like, oh, I love those. I love those shoes. what are they you're like oh they're nothing your shoes are great though and it's like that kind of quick dodge that quick dodge that quick shift from you to me me to you it doesn't create connection it kind of actually like throws it right back yeah whereas when we've been complimenting each other we've been kind of sitting in it for a moment and that sitting in it or you even talking about monochromatic fashion i really like this like that's what allows for connection and more now i know every time i see a monochromatic look that i think you'd like i could send it yeah Yeah, exactly.

1:15:02Jay Shetty:And so I'm like, I learn so much when I sit in it to talk to me about how to receive a compliment.

1:15:07Alison Wood Brooks:You're totally right. I think it took a very long time in my life to learn this, is to let the compliment land and accept it. And maybe even build on it. You can share more about where it's from or how you came. You say, I love your book. You know, how did you do this? And really give more information. information it's also kind of fun to play around with the people's instinct to dodge and so you say i love your pants i say enjoy the view right like like accept it and then and go a step further yes that's what shows confidence and security and almost like maturity of saying like thank you so much for noticing right rather than immediately feeling uncomfortable and sort of pushing the attention away.

1:15:56Alison Wood Brooks:I think learning how to accept other people's love, even in these tiny moments, is a skill.

1:16:02Jay Shetty:Sometimes we say things like, oh, it was just 10 bucks. Like, I just got it from like, what's that? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's just Target.

1:16:08Alison Wood Brooks:But even that you can say, but like, everything matters, right? Like, thank you so much. I never would have expected to get that compliment for something that I got from Target. God, I love that place, right? Like, whatever the thing, maybe. It's just the spirit. It's sort of the mindset of acceptance and togetherness. I need to trust that you're giving me that compliment because you really mean it. I think paranoia about other people's sincerity can really wreak havoc on conversations, right? Like anything that you say, if I'm questioning your motives, is going to get in the way of me being able to receive what you're giving.

1:16:49Jay Shetty:What's the other game that you had for us?

1:16:51Alison Wood Brooks:Another one that I think might be pretty fun for us to do is about admitting uncertainty. Okay, so we were talking about kids a little bit. I think schools very much teach us to almost pretend like we know more than we do. And it's not just schools. Even this, even this life, work, all of it pushes you, almost seems to exert pressure on you to pretend like you know everything.

1:17:17Jay Shetty:Yeah, so good.

1:17:17Alison Wood Brooks:It's a real problem. Because the people we actually like interacting with, the people we actually admire, the experts we actually want to listen to, are confident about what they do know and maybe even clearer and more confident about what they don't know. It's such a baller move to be like, I don't know the answer to that. I know the answer to a lot of things, and I really am not sure about this thing yet. So admitting uncertainty to this game, we can practice. And just like all these other games, you can start from a serious topic, from a lighthearted topic, and every time we go back and forth, we're just going to push ourselves in our minds to say things we know, but also include things that we're not sure about, things we're wondering about, things we have uncertainty about in our lives.

1:18:05Alison Wood Brooks:Let's start from a topic about technology. And we're going to push ourselves to admit uncertainty. And I'm going to say to you, Jay, how do you use technology in your life? I'm so basic and so analog I'm pretty bad like I don't even have everything synced up

1:18:24Jay Shetty:I don't understand how to use a cloud like I'm so bad with technology I'm good at it for work in the sense that I think I'm really fascinated by how AI can make systems easier at work and yes improve what we're doing and so I've had experts come in and help our company and I'm constantly looking for other people who can come and teach us because I don't believe I know how I can do that fully. But I'm fascinated by it and I'm curious about it. And so in my personal life, I'm extremely analog. I can just about charge my phone and just, you know, do the basic things. But I kind of like a lot of analog things.

1:19:02Jay Shetty:Like I have an analog record player. I don't use a lot of tech throughout the day.

1:19:06Alison Wood Brooks:When I hear people say this, like I live a very analog life, I feel admiration. And I almost want to know, like, how are you achieving that? I think because I'm not sure how to put limits on myself and on the structure of my life and my home and my work in a way that is optimally keeping me healthy and safe in terms of technology. And so when I hear you say that you live an analog life, I'd love to hear more about how. How do you stay that way and not bend to the pressure of a high-tech world.

1:19:44Jay Shetty:I want to point out what you did something there that I thought was really interesting is that you asked me a question, which was a pretty open question, but then you didn't just talk about yourself and end it at that. And I think sometimes that's what we end up doing in conversation.

1:19:57Alison Wood Brooks:Yes, yes, it's almost like parallel play.

1:19:58Jay Shetty:Yeah, so you asked me, hey, Jay, how do you use technology in your life? And then you just tell me how you use technology in your life.

1:20:05Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah.

1:20:05Jay Shetty:And then I'm like, cool. But you asked me that question. So I have no idea now why you asked me that because you just talked about yourself. Whereas what you did was you asked me a follow-up question that after giving me some insight into your life and the insight was vulnerable disclosure. And it was, you know, you let me in and go, God, I feel like my work pressure and the pull and, you know, all of this stuff. So now I have so much texture to respond to you with. And so my answer would be, I think half of it is because I don't know how to use that. like that would be the honest answer like i'm like i don't even know how to like download an app and get the world cup tickets on the app and yeah i'm so bad with that kind of stuff so there's that version of me so i think a version of me is just lazy like i just don't even know how to

1:20:53Alison Wood Brooks:connect i don't think lazy it's almost i bet it's a combination of disinterest and incompetence yeah

1:21:00Jay Shetty:yeah thank you for pointing out the incompetence yeah so there's that version of me and then and And then there's the version of me that likes having evenings and weekends tech free as much as I can. Yes, yes. Which is more intentional. I'm not perfect, by the way, at all. Like I still look at my phone before I go to bed and all the rest of it. So just to be really clear. But I think it's also surrounding yourself with analog things. So I also got a hatch that I love that I wake up to, which is meant for babies, but I use it. And I love that compared to like my phone waking me up or. And so the hatch is obviously not analog.

1:21:32Jay Shetty:it's it's i mean i guess it's it's very it's not analog it's digital but it's it's like digital

1:21:36Alison Wood Brooks:without screens without is that the thing that very subtly like it yeah it does like morning light

1:21:41Jay Shetty:it does morning lights the glow thing it feels more natural so it's it's a digital product obviously but it doesn't have a screen it doesn't have apps on it it doesn't allow me to be entertained and so i think i've tried to find products in my home and that's why having a record player instead of thinking oh can i connect my phone to the speakers because if i have speakers in my home and I have that system and we use it sometimes. But if I do that, then I'm on my phone again. And so I'm trying to find excuses in my home, in my vanity area, in my studio, I keep books open in my office so I can just pick up a book when I'm in that space rather than pulling out my phone for entertainment.

1:22:19Jay Shetty:And so I have books that are interesting to me about different topics in different areas. So I might have a leadership book open in my office, or I might have a behavioral science book in my vanity area or, you know, whatever it may be.

1:22:31Alison Wood Brooks:You're such a reader through and through. Yeah, I love books. It's so obvious. I think something that I'm hearing in our conversation here is that for any thing that you're trying to improve, there are structural things that you can do in your environment, right? You can be the architect of your own world. and then there are things you can do for your inner world in your mind to try and work on things. So I feel quite clear-eyed and certain about that dichotomy. Like, what do I need to be doing in my environment to design a life that's good for me, that's good for my family? And I feel quite clear-eyed about, oh, I constantly need to be pushing myself to be more other-oriented, to be less judgmental, to be these sort of inner goals.

1:23:16Alison Wood Brooks:What I'm less certain about is within each of those buckets, when it comes to technology specifically, for example, is exactly like what is the system I should be designing for my family that is going to be the best for all of us when it comes to mobile devices. An idea that I've been playing around with, it's like, oh, maybe we get a series of dumb phones and it's more like a library system. So they don't belong to anyone in the family. And when you leave the house, you just check one out. and then you just all it does is call and text and has gps and uber or music and then you get home and you'd like check it back in so i just i'm like constantly coming trying to think of these architectural choices in the world and the same with the inner world right constantly as a behavioral scientist trying to think what are the mindsets what are the practices what are the rituals that i can be doing that will help me be more regulated and healthy when it comes to tech

1:24:10Jay Shetty:So I'm coming out of our exercise because we get lost in it. I love how this uncertainty game is allowing us to talk about the things we're grappling with. Yes. As opposed to talking about the things we fully understand. And so we're not performing perfection.

1:24:28Alison Wood Brooks:Doesn't it feel wonderful and safe?

1:24:31Jay Shetty:Much better. It's so much better. Like, you're like, I'm trying to figure this out for the kids. I'm trying to figure out how this is at home. But you're also not complaining. and i think so there's this brilliant balance between performing and complaining because i think complaining also can just feel like draining and tiring and like a weight for your partner you're putting this on them correct yeah and perfection can also feel like a weight because then it's like oh well what are you what are you perfect at and so the middle balance of working things through and problem solving out loud together sharing uncertainty out loud is and also not trying to solve the other person's problems or fix your own is a really beautiful way.

1:25:10Jay Shetty:I love that.

1:25:10Alison Wood Brooks:I think that's what these games do. They give you the structure and permission to say these things out loud and practice saying them out loud. So when you are with your friends, you will be more likely to ask questions that gives them permission to do this, to admit their uncertainty and more confidence to yourself of like, oh, I know that admitting what I'm grappling with has this remarkable effect on my connection with other people. So I'm going to feel much more confident doing it.

1:25:40Jay Shetty:Yes.

1:25:40Alison Wood Brooks:In the beginning of our conversation, you asked what makes people feel more confident during conversation. And I think a lot of answers to that question tend to feel like tips or tricks. And the sort of more accurate or profound perspective is that like all of these things, learning how to give yourself and other people permission to express uncertainty to ask questions to really put in the effort to listen to move beyond small talk like it's really the um sort of co-creation of that sort of small shared reality between you that makes both people feel more confident and better about everything allison in this portion of our conversation

1:26:24Jay Shetty:with a few more moments left, I want to go into two really big areas. The first one is dating. And then we'll get into difficult conversations in relationships. And I know in the book, you actually talk about both of these, which I was really happy to see because I think they're the places we struggle the most. Why do people struggle so much on a first date? What are they grappling with?

1:26:45Alison Wood Brooks:Conversations with strangers, with people you don't know well, are different than the conversations we have with people that we're comfy and cozy with, that we know really well. They feel high stakes. They feel risky. I'll give you an example. There's a really nice research paper showing that long pauses on a first date actually are a sign that things are not going well. Long pauses with your spouse of 25 years are like the opposite. It's like a sign of cozy companionship and that you're comfortable around each other. So it's like all of these little things when you're on a first date are just everybody's like on pins and needles trying to figure out, am I interested in this person?

1:27:29Alison Wood Brooks:Are they interested in me? Is this going well? Is it not going well? And in order to achieve that magic connection, that spark that people are sort of looking for, it's a lot of pressure. You got to keep the conversation bubbling and alive and back and forth. And you want to feel like you're really connecting and getting to know each other, but also laughing. And it's like you're serious, but also not serious. I think nowadays with like dating on apps, there's also this thing of like, are you going to stay long enough to even find out who I really am? You must feel this way with all these podcast conversations that are long.

1:28:05Alison Wood Brooks:You could start at the beginning of it with someone that you truly are like, I don't like this person. by the end of two hours it must be quite rare that you aren't like in love with that person or not in love but like really admire them and find them deeply interesting you can yeah feel like you're friends or feel like i know this person and i want i just that would you know like i fully agree that devotion of time to another human being it's just very likely that you're going to learn a lot about them and like a lot about them, even if they're difficult.

1:28:45Jay Shetty:Yes, yes. Right?

1:28:46Alison Wood Brooks:Even if they're weird and eccentric or harsh.

1:28:51Jay Shetty:Or different from you.

1:28:52Alison Wood Brooks:Very different from you. I think your capacity to kind of fall in like with people who are very different than you is an incredible skill. Yeah. One of our data sets is actually very specific. The people who do best on first dates are those who ask more follow-up questions. Far and away. Men and women on heterosexual dates. So much so that if you imagine going on 20 dates, if you ask just one more follow-up question on each date, one question, you will convert one more of the dates into a second date. So one question per date, convert an extra date.

1:29:32Jay Shetty:Just one question.

1:29:33Alison Wood Brooks:One question. Imagine if you asked two. Yeah. We're five.

1:29:37Jay Shetty:Wow.

1:29:38Alison Wood Brooks:Women are more likely to ask questions naturally on average, but it is equally effective for everybody.

1:29:43Jay Shetty:Well, a lot of women I know feel that they're asking a lot of questions and not getting a lot back.

1:29:47Alison Wood Brooks:Yes.

1:29:48Jay Shetty:Because men haven't also been given the space to open up and feel like they can talk about these things in their relationships. Yes. Was there a type of question a woman could ask to help a man feel more comfortable opening up on a first day or second day?

1:30:02Alison Wood Brooks:Maybe they could play the admitting uncertainty game. Oh, God.

1:30:05Jay Shetty:A lot of men would be scared by that, I imagine.

1:30:07Alison Wood Brooks:There's one of the tools that we've built for Talk Studios is this tool called Talk Sparks. That's literally just you keep hitting give me my next topic. And it's like an infinite scroll of topics.

1:30:19Jay Shetty:That's cool.

1:30:20Alison Wood Brooks:What I love about it is like the topics are great. You're going to have a great conversation. But it also is just kind of like it gives you permission. So if it doesn't go well, blame the app. Blame the website. Blame me.

1:30:33Jay Shetty:Test it out.

1:30:33Alison Wood Brooks:Yeah, I think the more you can sort of de-risk conversations like first dates, the better it's going to go.

1:30:41Jay Shetty:You say in the book, if the conversation dies, the date dies. Yes. How do you revive a conversation after an awkward silence?

1:30:52Alison Wood Brooks:It feels like your soul dies in a two-second lull. I very purposely just tried to pause more than I usually do, just so we could kind of start to feel it. Sometimes I do that when I'm teaching. I'll just stop. and let everybody sit in it and be like, okay, guys, it's okay. We're going to be all right. There are so many ways. You can come back with humor, like, oh, yeah. So this is going great. I'll be here all night. The best solution is to just not let the lull happen at all. And the way to do that is to ask a follow-up question, right? Like to keep going. If you find yourself like in that panicky moment where you're like, I don't know what to say next, you can literally always say, can you tell me more about that?

1:31:32Alison Wood Brooks:Let them go on a little bit more. While they're talking, think about the next pasture that you can move to. You have so much to learn about someone when you don't know them. Where they're from, what their parents are like, do they have siblings, do they prefer living in a city or in the countryside, why, what are they excited about lately, what are their favorite hobbies, what books have they read, what movies have they watched. There's just so much. You don't know anything about each other. And I want people to find comfort in that. If you go in with this learning mindset, you really should never run out of things to talk about.

1:32:03Jay Shetty:How long should you wait to know whether you can find out with someone? Because it almost feels like when you put it that way, you're like, it's pretty obvious whether you get along with someone or not.

1:32:12Alison Wood Brooks:What's really fascinating and I think a little bit sad is we can all think of examples with our friendships that where it took many conversations before you even really noticed someone or gave them the time of day or really started to enjoy their company and vice versa, where somebody who was so fun and exciting and sort of spicy at a party, you might run into in a different context and you're like, oh, they were not nearly as like intriguing as I thought maybe was something specific about that situation. I think that's just, you know, being human. For falling in love and romantic love, I don't think that we should expect to have sparks immediately.

1:33:00Alison Wood Brooks:You might, and it might feel magical, and it might be sustained, and that's wonderful. But you may not actually be able to fall in love. You might have to, it might be slower. You might need to give them a chance and give them a few, many conversations. Yeah. There is not research on that. In fact, there's quite a dearth of research overall about how relationships unfold across multiple conversations over time. This science of conversation is quite new. It's really only been possible—we've studied language for hundreds of years. Oration, right? Public speaking, since Aristotle. But the study of live dialogue was really only technologically possible with real transcripts over the last 10 or 15 years, which is why this book was so exciting to write.

1:33:46Alison Wood Brooks:And being part of that scientific evolution has been really exciting. But it means that it's still sort of a baby science, a nation science. And one of the huge areas of opportunity is figuring out what does the trajectory of a relationship look like across many conversations over time? What does friendship look like? What are the different scenarios? What does a coworker situation look like? What does falling in love look like across conversations? I think that's where the science will go in the coming years.

1:34:14Jay Shetty:Do you believe in the 36 questions that find you love?

1:34:18Alison Wood Brooks:I've used the 36 questions in many of my studies and research. It falls into the same category of like, I don't think the opening question matters nearly as much as what you do with it. What I do like about the 36 questions of fallen love is the structure of it. Because you ask the question, the other person answers, and then they ask back. It's almost like telling you how to reciprocate and listen to each other. That, to me, I think probably matters more than like what you're talking about. They are an interesting sequence of getting more and more in depth. But just asking follow-up questions does the same thing, right?

1:34:55If we start from a place of when was the last time you cried and then we go from there, things are going to get deeper.

1:35:03Alison Wood Brooks:They're going to get fun. They're going to get deep again. Then it's less about the 36 questions themselves and more about, again, that's an exercise that gives people permission and a structure to connect with each other.

1:35:14Jay Shetty:If you're in the middle of a heated discussion with someone, what can you say to lower the tension?

1:35:21Alison Wood Brooks:It's funny. So much focus in public discourse for decades and still is about difficult conversations because they are upsetting. They are scary. We dread them. We don't like them. They are often the demise of relationships. But everything about those difficult moments is easier and more tolerable depending on how the easy conversations have gone. The little ones that seem like they don't matter, the mundane ones, the quick like, oh, have a great day, I love you conversations. When you do get to a hard moment, if those are going well and you trust each other and you delight each other, the hard moment is much easier to face, right?

1:36:03Alison Wood Brooks:That's trust. And so there's sort of this long-term-edness to it that I think gets lost in public discourse. In the moment, what can you do? Our human instinct leads us to have a persuasion mindset. I'm right, you're wrong. That is like the worst mindset that you can have during a disagreement because it's very hard to receive and it's only going to make emotions more hot and things more conflictual. We have to cast aside that persuasion instinct and focus on learning. In these hot moments too, what's going on in your mind? What's upsetting about this here? Tell me more about why this is upsetting.

1:36:43Alison Wood Brooks:Most of our disagreements, especially with our close relationships, are we get pissed off about a small thing. They left their clothes on the floor. They beeped at someone in the crosswalk. They didn't pick up dinner on the way home and you thought they were going to. And then you have a conversation that feels really heated about it because it's not actually about the thing. It's not about the food. It's not about the laundry. It's not about the beep. It's about what those things say about them as a person. It's what those things say about their respect for you. It's what those things say about your relationship.

1:37:21Alison Wood Brooks:Are we the kind of people who snip at each other about clothes on the floor? Are you the kind of person who doesn't listen to me when I say it's important to me to have a clean bedroom? It's these little mundane things that shoot these barbs down to our identities as people and as a pair. So in those moments, learn as much as you can about their perspective. Keep in mind that it's really not about the thing that you're talking about, don't throw more things into it. Don't snowball and be like, and you never pick up the kitchen, and you spent too much money on this, and you did that snowballing is so bad.

1:37:59Alison Wood Brooks:Validate their feelings. It makes sense that you feel upset about that. You're right. You've asked me to pick up. I'm so sorry. I was really rushed getting out the door. And ideally, they reciprocate and say, I totally get it. I know that it's really stressful when you're rushing out the door, right? That becomes a thing that you can reciprocate to each other as well, validation. If things are really heated, it's very easy to forget that you don't have to talk about it right then. Walk away. Let's talk about this in five minutes. Let's talk about this in an hour. The power of taking a breath and getting space is really remarkable, especially for people who are like, no, we need to solve it now.

1:38:40Alison Wood Brooks:We need to fix it. I'm pissed now. Take a breath.

1:38:44Jay Shetty:I think sometimes the reason we even get to those moments is because we avoid difficult conversations in the buildup.

1:38:50Alison Wood Brooks:Yes, yes. Yes.

1:38:51Jay Shetty:And I feel this is where we struggle most with communication and conversation.

1:38:56Alison Wood Brooks:Yes.

1:38:57Jay Shetty:Is we don't have the conversation with our partner. We don't have the conversation with our boss. We don't have the conversation with our colleague. And then it erupts into something much bigger much later on. How should people prepare for and how do we get better at having difficult conversations?

1:39:13Alison Wood Brooks:I think this question of when do you voice things and when do you keep them private is one of the great conundrum or mysteries of human life. When is it worth it to speak up? When is it worth it to share your views and not? Especially when it is a dissenting viewpoint when it is a clearly going to be a disagreement. I think a sort of public discourse about speaking up often loses the nuance of it is annoying, right? Like you should not always speak up and disagree if it's not, if you don't think it's going to be worthwhile. But chewing on your resentments and over time is extremely damaging too.

1:39:59Alison Wood Brooks:I find it helpful to reframe this question as like, how do you set up the conversation in a way that feels like it will be productive? And often the answer is privacy, one-on-one, not in front of other people, is almost always the case. Two, when there's enough time to actually listen to each other, it can't be a passive-aggressive thing in passing. Like schedule a thing, schedule a sit-down. It needs to be at least 30 minutes to talk about it. So private, enough time, and go in with a learning mindset. And if you have those three things, it's far less scary and far less likely to sort of chew on the resentment quietly over time.

1:40:41At what point is distance and no contact

1:40:44Jay Shetty:better than conversation?

1:40:46Alison Wood Brooks:If people's emotions are so hot that they can't listen to each other. There's a really great paper, great research about how people conflate disagreement and listening. It's like when I hear somebody who disagrees with me, in my brain, I'm like, you're just not hearing me. You're not listening to me. I think the reason we conflate them is because disagreement is so often accompanied by hot emotions. And hot emotions actually prevent us from listening to each other. But when we disagree with people, that's when we need to be able to listen the most. When we need to validate each other with our words the most.

1:41:25Alison Wood Brooks:When we need to ask the most questions. and so if you are in an angry pissed anxious fearful upset state and you don't think you can do the hard work of listening and validating the other person then you should not have the

1:41:41Jay Shetty:conversation you should wait yeah because i'm someone who believes conversation is always better

1:41:45Alison Wood Brooks:but there's a time when it's not there's so many times when it's not and there are times when voicing your opinion to a group may not be optimal, but to imagine like drawing out all the conditions for one or the other is maybe the next book. Yeah.

1:42:02Jay Shetty:Alison, it's been incredible talking to you. I could talk to you for a couple more hours, but we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum. Okay. So Alison Woodbrooks, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best communication advice you've ever heard or received?

1:42:21Alison Wood Brooks:Ask the next question.

1:42:23Jay Shetty:Second question, what's the worst communication advice you've ever heard or received?

1:42:28Alison Wood Brooks:Here are 10 ways to be more persuasive.

1:42:30Jay Shetty:What's one phrase that can help repair trust through a conversation?

1:42:33Alison Wood Brooks:I'm so sorry. Here is how I'll do better next time.

1:42:37Jay Shetty:Question number four, what's a conversation friends should have more often that almost no one does?

1:42:44Alison Wood Brooks:What do you admire most about each other?

1:42:46Jay Shetty:That's beautiful. I love that. Fifth and final question. We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

1:42:56Alison Wood Brooks:If you are within 10 feet of another human being, you have to make eye contact with them, at least.

1:43:05Jay Shetty:The book is called Talk, The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. Alison Woodbrooks, congratulations. Thank you. So grateful for this conversation. So excited for this book to guide people through dates, difficult moments. work events, conversations with colleagues, friends, loved ones, family members. And I'm just so grateful for your time, energy, and presence. Thank you so much.

1:43:29Alison Wood Brooks:Thank you, Jay. Thank you for the amazing things that you bring to the world through these beautiful conversations. It's been an honor to be here. Thank you. Thank you. I don't think I can be your friend, Isabella said. Rebecca's stomach flipped. This is the love story of real hinge couple Isabella and Rebecca, written and read by me, Temi Denton-Hurst. Listen to the free audiobook now.

1:44:18Alison Wood Brooks:Visit 1-800-CONTACTS.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-CONTACTS. Hello. Look what TJ Maxx dragged in.

1:44:28Jay Shetty:The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now streaming on Disney Plus and Hulu.

1:44:32Alison Wood Brooks:We are digital. We are downloadable. We are streamable. The fashion event of the year is certified fresh. Pull yourself together. We have work to do. Critics say it's smart and witty and the perfect sequel. That's all.

1:44:45Jay Shetty:Get runway ready for The Devil Wears Prada 2 on Disney Plus and Hulu. Rated PG-13.