Alli Webb ON: How to Embrace Imposter Syndrome & Ways to Take Small Steps Towards Big Success

23:18And my brother was like more of the behind the scene business side of it. And I was like, you know, the hairstylist and like the experience and everybody always asks us, like, is it really hard to work with your brother and now ex-husband? And that's not why we got divorced and whatever. But I was like, no, it was great because we were all very clear on what we did and what we did well and what our highest and best use was. I had that conversation so many times. I still go back to that, what's my highest and best use always in life? Because I think it's like, really like think about it, you know?

23:47And we had really almost no conflict. And if we ever, I mean, we all talked about all things together, but if there was ever like a questionable thing, whoever would decide was like, whose lane that was, you know? And that was, we were all very okay with that. And I think when you do run into problems with business partners, it's often because you guys think you have the same skillset. And then that's such, It's like five-year-olds playing soccer. Everybody's kicking the ball. It doesn't work, you know? So I feel like it is, it's like the old cliche. Like it doesn't feel like work if you're doing something you love, which I know has been said 8 million times, but like it is so true.

24:22And, and, and I think it's like almost feels too easy to your point. So people are like, well, I've got to challenge myself. And of course, like you do, and you want to keep challenging yourself, but like what a gift in life to like be able to do what you love to do. And I think, I think there's this misconception that like, you shouldn't do that. You know, it's like, you know, for me, like when I told my parents, I wanted to go to beauty school, they were like, really? Are you sure? You know? And like very like, look their nose down on it. Like, you want to be a hairstylist? And they also had, I grew up in South Florida and my parents had, were entrepreneurs, which definitely informed a lot of my, or who I became, but they had this like old lady clothing store and it was right next to this like old lady hair salon.

25:01And they were, and I think in their mind, they were like, you want to work there? And I was like, no, I'm going to move to New York City. I'm going to do editorial and like fashion shows. And I had these like grand ideas. I didn't have dry bar at the time, you know, but it was like, that's what I loved. Like I grew up in South Florida. I have naturally curly hair. My hair was just massive and frizzy all the time. And I was just fascinated by hair. I loved hair. It's just what I loved, you know? And so it took me a lot. It would take me many years to finally like get the courage to say like when my friends were going to college and they were studying whatever.

25:31And I was always like, how do you guys know what you want to do? very confused by that whole notion of college and majors and all that. And I just loved hair. And that was the thing that I really loved. And it would, you know, I talk about it in the book that it took me a while to, to figure out again, comes back to like being close in. Like I always loved hair. I would spend hours in the bathroom in high school. And I was just so, I worked at a hair salon as a receptionist when I was in high school, because I wanted to get free blowouts. And cause I loved being around hairstylists. And I was like, this is the thing that I love.

26:00and I ignored it for so many years, you know, and it's like to be able to tap into that thing. And, and you can't find a person. There's nobody you can meet and say, what do you really love to do? And they may not tell you because they're embarrassed or they don't do it as a job because they, like my parents want to prove, my husband want to prove, whoever won't think it's a good idea. My parents did not think it was a good idea to go to beauty school, but I had enough like chutzpah to be like, I hear you, but it's what I want to do, you know? And I had no idea it was going to turn into like this beautiful life that it did for me, but I was just like, stay really focused.

26:37And I, and I talk about that a lot to entrepreneurs that I'm mentoring. It's like, don't, you know, shut all that out, you know, listen to what really feels like is, is good for you. Not what everybody else around you wants, you know? It's almost like that question that's come from what you're saying is what's that voice you're ignoring on the inside or what's that idea that you keep kind of putting away because you're like that's ridiculous oh that's stupid or yeah and you've heard that voice before where someone looked at you weird because you actually shared your intention yeah your excitement and everyone looked at you like that's not real get over it and by the way people did that at dry bar because i mean like i said it was in it was in the middle of a recession and people were like how do you make this concept work it's like you know we were starting at$35 a blowout.

27:22And it was like, you have to do a lot of blowouts to make that business work. And I was like, yeah, you know, but I think we can do it. And I didn't like, I literally not, not great at math, but I was like, I think if we can do like, you know, 10 blowouts an hour and we're open, you know, 10 hours a day, I think it'll work, you know? And I remember my brother started like putting an actual spreadsheet together and running the numbers. It was like, yeah, if we do 30 or 40 blowouts a day, we'll have a nice business, you know? And of course we, we never did that little. We always did like 70, 80, 100 blow, I'd say, which was just bananas.

27:54But it was like, people were the ones who put it in my head that like, maybe, maybe this idea doesn't work. I mean, so many people. And then we started raising money and, you know, that's a whole other conversation of like raising money with like walking into these rooms with men in suits who like did not understand the concept of dry bar. And we're like, what? You know, like, how does this work? And just didn't believe in it. So many people didn't believe in it. And it did seem like a tough, you know, how do you make this work? Like on a large scale, is there enough women who want to do this?

28:25Is the price, the price point is really low? Like margins are really thin. How does it work? And, you know, and I just, I'm like, I'm just telling you, I really, you know, from a gut level know that this is going to work. And then you're like, oh shit, this better work, you know, but it did. And I always felt like there was money on the line for sure and that's not a small thing but you know I remember when I started cutting hair and I mean when you're starting to cut hair and you have really sharp scissors in your hand it is very scary and like and you know it's so funny it's like the very first haircut I would never trust myself oh my god with my own hair or anyone else's no it's the worst and they're even if my wife says will you stay I'm like nope like I'm not going anywhere near that well the first haircut I ever did in beauty school I cut someone's ear and I felt like I was gonna die and the ears bleed so much and i thought when you say cut someone's ear how much just like just a little nip on the i mean it was it was i remember it was so traumatized i'm sure for them but for me and also in beauty school you're doing like two dollar haircuts and that's where you're learning you know i still have like nightmares about that because it was like the worst thing that can happen but beside that weird story which i don't think i've ever talked to anybody about um i it was very traumatizing for me but i always felt like at the end of the day when i was on the floor cutting.

29:40And when I was doing all that and, you know, and then when we were starting dry bar, I was like, no one's going to die if this business doesn't work. Like, which is like the worst possible outcome. It's like, we're not doing surgery. We're not, we don't, you know, and, and I, and I always like found comfort in that. Cause I was like, you know, there's always a chance that we're going to lose money. In my case, it was going to really be my brother's money. And my, you know, my, my husband at the time and I put in our life savings, which wasn't really that much, but a lot to us at the time. And, you know, I was like, it's going to really suck and we're going to lose money, but we're like, we're really smart, capable people.

30:10And if this idea doesn't work, like we'll figure something else out. And I think that that mindset of like, you got to just like put it on the line is like, is really why I think I've been successful is like not holding anything too tightly of like, yeah, I really hope this works. And I really think this is going to work, but if it doesn't like, we're all going to be okay. You know? And I think that's like, you know, I think a lot, a lot of entrepreneurs I talk to are like, I have to have this much money saved and I have to do this and I have to do this and I have to do this. And I was like, yeah, prepare for sure.

30:43But like at some point you're going to have to just jump, you know, and hope for the best. Yeah. There is, there is a moment for that lead. Yeah. I want to dive into a couple of things here that you've mentioned that I think really stood out. And you talk about this and we were talking about this a bit offline. It was this idea of page 13, you say, if you feel like an imposter embrace it yeah and i feel like imposter syndrome has been something that a lot of people are talking about yeah i think it's something that there are even more people that are feeling than are talking about it and it seems to be a recurring feeling yeah whenever you're in a new room or a new league or a new zone when you say embrace it what does that mean parking shouldn't slow you down park whiz gives every driver a shortcut book ahead save up to 50 percent and skip the hassle of circling the block.

31:29Park smarter, park faster, ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. I'm Radhi Devlukia and I'm the host of a Really Good Cry podcast and I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Uri. Logan is a dating expert, a behavioral scientist, a best-selling author, and someone who is seriously changing the way we think about love and dating. In our conversation, we talk all things dating that Logan has studied and tested from what to put in your dating profile, the pictures you should and shouldn't be using to the conversation starters that actually work. And the huge no-nos that people probably do not realize are reducing their chances of success on apps.

32:05Whether you're single, dating, or just trying to be more intentional in love, Logan offers the kind of clarity we all need. Relationships do require work and the best relationships are people who really work on them together. They're so focused on if I find the perfect person, then I'll have the perfect relationship instead of understanding really that they can choose someone great and then build that relationship together. They don't need to keep searching for perfection. Listen to a really good cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, I think to your point of people talking about it a lot, they talk about it like it's a bad thing.

32:41And I think of it as a good thing. If you're embarking on a position in a new job or you're starting a company or whatever, you're doing that's new to you, like, that's amazing. Like you're starting something new. You're, you're taking that leap of faith. You're, you know, putting yourself in a situation that you've not been in. And that's really scary for sure. But it's also really exciting and exhilarating. And it means you're growing and you're in this next new phase in your life. And so this, this negative association with imposter syndrome, as if it's like a bad thing, it has definitely happened to me.

33:16I think maybe because I had never had any real formal training in anything other than hair where I would start a job and I was like, I know I'm underqualified for this job, but I'm going to like figure it out. And I, and I would, you know, and I guess that was part of it. Like, yes, I am an imposter. Technically, I don't know how to do this job, but you better believe I'm going to figure it out and do it well. And it's no different with entrepreneurship. I mean, when we started Drybar, I had never like been in charge of that many people. I'd never managed a salon. Like I'd never, my parents didn't, I watched them and I worked for owners of hair salons and I've been a stylist for years.

33:49Like I had a lot of the things that I think I needed to have, but I had never actually done it. And so I was learning it as I went, which was scary, but also amazing. And I also think when you come in again, nothing I could have articulated them, but a term I think we're hearing more and more now is this like beginner's mindset, you know, and I had that when I was, when we were starting Drybar because I was quite literally a beginner and running a business. And I made a lot of mistakes and I had to figure out a lot of things. And that's, that's also the beauty of this book is that I feel like I got an education in this.

34:22I got like a, you know, a business degree while I was running a business because I was having to figure all these things out and I made tons of wrong decisions and bad choices. You know, I also think I felt, it's not necessarily imposter syndrome, but I think I felt this like immense pressure because I was the boss. Like I had to know all the answers and I had to like, if you came to me and asked me a question about the business, I'd be like, well, here's what I think. Even though it wasn't always right. It was just like me having, and I used to think that that was like, oh, you're just the boss and you just, you, the buck stops with you and you have to.

34:54And now I feel like, and, and how I, how I approach that question now is like, well, what do you think? Which is not something I would have said. And that's like, I think that was all ego. Cause I was like, oh, I feel this pressure. Like I'm supposed to know the answer because I'm sitting where I'm sitting in this company. And And now I'm like, well, what do you think about that? And then people are like, what? You know? And I'm like, well, I don't, I actually don't know the answer, but I'd love to hear what you think. But I, I didn't have enough, like, you know, I was, I was too focused on like feeling like I had to be, and maybe that does go back to imposter syndrome.

35:25I had, I felt like I needed to know all the answers because I was the boss and this was my company and blah, blah, blah, where now I'm like, there's so much freedom in saying, I don't know, you know, like, let's talk about it. And then, and then the culture that you create in a company when you're like the kind of boss, that's like not a know-it-all and people aren't afraid to be like, Hey Jay, you know, I actually think that if we tried this, this and that, like when I'm sure people do that in your company, like when someone comes up to you and they're like, I actually think if we try blah, blah, blah.

35:52And your response is like, no, you know, they're, they're never coming to you with something again. But if your response is like, Oh, that's interesting, you know, you may not always take it, but But that beginner's, that feels to me like a beginner's mindset of like, I'm open to other ways of, and, and I think that there's a part of, I know there's a part of me that gets a little like, you know, and it's also like, I, I feel like I know best. And we go into our, our ego of like, no, but I know what I'm doing. How, but, but embracing what somebody else is bringing to you, I think is really powerful.

36:22And that's something that took me a long time to get comfortable with. Yeah. There's, there's something that you've reminded me on. you talk about this on page 52 you're saying being open to feedback personal or professional is a practice a learned intention to stop taking the information maybe go on a walk take some deep breaths and come back open to hearing what someone else is feeling and i wanted to ask you what's been the best or most memorable piece of feedback that you gained on your professional journey that's kind of stuck with you where maybe even in the moment it was so painful to hear yeah but you now look back and go I believe that.

36:59Well, I think thinking of feedback as a gift, which I learned pretty early on. And I remember, you know, somebody in our company who said it, I heard her say it once. And I was like, wow, that's so profound. Because if you can be open to what someone is telling you, which is so hard, and it is painful. And, and, you know, I remember my brother saying to me once, like, people are scared of you and i was like what you know just no awareness on my part like i was like what are you talking about you know what are you talking about what do you mean people are scared of me like and he was like well because you know yeah that's a joke um yeah i was i but but in the moment i really was taken aback by it and i was like i'm so nice what do you mean and he was like well, you know, you walk in the stores and you lose your mind.

37:49And I was like, I do that because I'm so passionate, you know, and I, and I was covering it up with like, I'm so passionate and I want things to be perfect. And I did, but I, I would learn over time that, that walking in and like, you know, I would, I would, you could see it all over my face. Cause I was like, why are the floorboards dirty? Why is the music not up? Why did this person not get greeted that way? Well, I mean, just for me, it was like, you know, it was like sensory overload of everything that was wrong, which I think is a blessing and a curse. Cause you're like, well, I am the person, this is my baby.

38:21Like I am the person who has to be the one that's like, this is not working and we need to fix this. But I also would learn that I, people were excited when I would come in the store and they wanted to tell me the good things. And I did start to perpetuate this reputation of like, Ali's coming, watch out. And you know, part of me was like, I think maybe that's a good thing. But then I was like, no, it's not. And I would learn eventually to, you know, like I would take notes and I would then like, you know, not like ruin everybody's day when I would come in the store, you know, and I had to learn that the hard way, but it really did take my brother, probably one of the only few people in our company who felt comfortable enough to say to me, cause he wasn't scared of me, you know, he'd be like, we're scared of you.

39:02And I, again, at first I was very defensive and I told him he was wrong and, you know, it was also my big brother, but it really like sunk in. And I was like, man, I don't want that. I don't want people to be scared of me. I want people to be able to talk to me. I don't want people to feel like they have to protect me either, which was also another thing that drove me crazy and still does to this day. Like I don't, you know, and I'm sure you agree with this. It's like, you don't want to be surrounded by yes people. Like, please no. Tell me, tell me the truth. Tell me what people are saying. I want to know what people are thinking if I, if I can't ascertain that on my own, you know?

39:33So if you have people around you who are willing to give you like the feedback, it's like, you're only going to be better for it. You know, it stings in the moment. And it still does. Like, you know, sometimes someone will tell me something and I'll be like, oh, gosh, like, I can't believe that. And then if you're open to it, and then now you have the awareness about it. And I'll tell you, I'm like, I don't think you have children, right? You know, for me, I have a 16 and 18 year old, two boys and like, talk about honesty. I mean, I'm really, really close to my kids, but they will tell me things like that are very hard here.

40:07And it is a real practice, a mental exercise for me to not, you know, and my kids used to say to me, like, cause I've, cause during the dry bar era, when I was, I guess a little scary, you know, my, my kids would even say to me, like, we don't know what version you're going to, of you were going to get, which is like, oh yeah. And I was like, but I know that now. And now like the power is in my control. Like I can be like, okay. And it literally just happened. And I was with, my son is at Denison University in Ohio. He's playing football. And I went out to see him. And this, you know, he like came off the field, you know, and he was like, didn't really want to talk about some of the stuff that we want to talk about.

40:47And my younger son said to me, like, just give him a minute, mom. And I was like, what? He's like, just give him a minute. And I was like, oh, right. You know, because as a mom and anybody listening to this who's a mom, you're like, when your kid isn't like perfect and happy, you're like, what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? How can I fix it? what can I do? You know, we get, we go into that like mama bear protective mode. And my younger son looked at me and he's like, mom, give him a minute. And I, I did get defensive with him for a second. And I was like, what are you talking about? You know?

41:16And he's like, you know, and I was like, you're right. You know? And I was like, okay. And I thanked him, you know? And I backed up and I was like, when he's ready to talk to me about it, he'll talk to me about it. And sure enough, he did a couple hours later talk, he opened up and it was like such a great lesson and reminder of like, sometimes, you know, you need to give people space and you can't just have what you want when you want it. And, and that's been a really hard lesson for me. And I think it's also like being at the, at the helm of a company and, and having this like mentality of like, I can do and say whatever I want because I'm the boss and blah, blah, blah.

41:50You can just do whatever that bleeds over into your real life, which, you know, my kids are kind of a living example of that, of like, you know, and I used to say things to my kids, like I've been around longer than you guys. And I just know. And they're like, you don't always know mom, you know? And it's like, you know, so your kids are like, talk about mirrors, you know? And, and they've, they've all of that awareness, I think has been such a gift to me. And, and that you can get that anywhere in your life from your best friend, from your spouse, from someone who works for you or with you. It's like, if you ask genuinely, they're going to tell you and like, what a gift to like get that awareness you know and it does sting for a second and then you're like oh okay i'm gonna take that and be better my best friend tells me stuff too you know it's like oh thank you you know yeah yeah and it requires that beginner's mindset that humility to accept it and receive it i know i know my wife does it with me all the time and it's so much easier to defend yourself to mask yourself to shield yourself in a false sense yeah and what you don't realize is every time you pretend to shield yourself from good feedback you're just setting yourself up for more downfalls and it happens again and again and yeah the ego is so well equipped to keep drawing the sword and gosh it's crazy cutting down everything in its way and it's perfect at it because that's its job yeah but it's not protection it's actually your resilience is getting thinner and thinner and thinner and you're getting weaker and weaker and weaker i wanted to ask you because you're shifting into that you know that I love how honest you were about the kind of feedback you get from kids I think people often talk about oh you know my kid said I'm not cool anymore I get whatever that kind of stuff and like that doesn't sting but hearing this kind of stuff do you think it's because you you definitely have a take on this in your book like do you think it's possible to be really materially successful and have a happy marriage like are those two things possible my my first marriage which was like 16 years didn't didn't work not because of the business and i think that it's like i i joke a lot that like people are like you know it must have been hard to work with your husband i was like yeah we got divorced you know but that's not really you know it's a joke um which of course is like a deflection but but more true was that like we probably never should have gotten married in the first place like i we met when we were 26 and I'm pretty sure I put this in the book that he tried to call the wedding off a month before the wedding and I was like, oh no, we are not doing that.

44:23And he had some real good reasons for that. Like, you know, the relationship was really hot and heavy in the beginning. It had faded quite a bit. Like the intimacy wasn't really there but we were best friends and I would later learn that like my parents had that marriage which they ended up getting divorced too and I think I definitely emulated my parents' marriage which is just wild when you read all that about how we do that because I didn't see it at all. But, you know, we had kids very quickly, which I really wanted. I was very like, I'm very driven. And I was like, I want children. And so we had kids a year after we got married.

44:58And then, you know, like I said, we started the business Drybar when my kids were three and five. So it was like, boom, boom, boom. And Drybar felt like a third baby. And then, you know, Cam was doing all the creative and I was doing all the other stuff. And so, you know, we're on this path and, and I knew all along. And so did he, even though we didn't want to admit it, that like, this wasn't like, this can't be it. This can't be like what it's supposed to be. But, you know, we didn't want to like disrupt our lives. And we, you know, it's just like, it's a lot to get divorced. And I didn't want to be a divorced person.

45:29And I liked the facade that I had, these two really cute boys with great hair and this amazing husband. And he was like the, you know, the brainchild of the creative of Drybar, which was amazing. I was like, I loved the way the package looked, but I knew it wasn't right. You know, the material success, I didn't, I didn't want to shatter the whole image, you know? And, and obviously like I've, you know, come to realize that like, you just, you have to, and that's the messy truth of it all. And then it was, then I, I made the really hard decision to end the marriage. And then my son, who's now 18 and doing really well at Denison, he went into rehab because he started doing drugs.

46:05and there's a whole chapter about that. And just my life completely unraveled, you know? And to your question, it was like, on this hand, I had all this success and I was like doing all this cool stuff. And like anybody who didn't know me, I was like, I was a guest on Shark Tank, like coolest thing ever. I was like on Inc. Magazine, the cover. I mean, it's just like all these really cool things were happening and you look at my life, like, wow, what a cool life she's got. And then all this success and I was being, you know, praised and it was great. but then my life was falling apart, you know?

46:36And, and so no, I didn't have, I wasn't able to like hold both. And then I come out of Grant after about two years, like it really worked all the treatment we put Grant through and he really came out on top and he really did the work. And he's such a, I mean, he ended up in a couple of different programs. One of them was an outdoor wilderness program in Utah, which I actually think every human should probably have to go through. We went to visit him once and he was like making fire out of like, you know, two sticks. And he He was like, learned how to, I mean, the thing, it was amazing. And I was like, this is really profound.

47:08And he really came out such a better person on the other side. And it also brought me and my ex together because we had to like do group therapy and family there and all the things. And it was also one of those things that I actually thought might kill me because it was so painful, but it actually was a blessing in disguise. I mean, the insight and the person that Grant turned into and the other side of that is just remarkable. and it brought me and my ex back together as friends. And like, we learned how to co-parent because of all that. And even my younger son really, but I mean, it was all like such an amazing blessing at the time.

47:42I wouldn't have ever asked for that, you know? And so it was like the both and and the odds and the duality of what I was living. And then I came out of that situation, you know, and rushed back into another relationship that was like, now, now I'm looking for like real love because I didn't feel like I had it the way I wanted it in my first marriage. And then I jump into that, you know, and at that time we were like, you know, it was right before that I met him like five months before the pandemic. And I was already kind of like transitioning out of dry bar in a lot of ways, because the company was so big and we had so many people running it now.

48:17And what I was doing on a day-to-day basis wasn't really there anymore. And, and now I was like, you know, just looking for love and like, and then I found it and I was like, Oh, I think this is what it's supposed to be. And I was, you know madly in love with this man and I wasn't paying attention to anything else you know and to any of the red flags that were there that I now really see were there and so I again to your question which is such a good one like I did I couldn't hold both you know it was like I now I was like stepping away from dry bar and now I was stepping into just love and I lost completely lost myself on that side you know it was like I lost myself in the dry bar world and put my love life and even my kids a little bit on hold and now I was in the other side of it where I'm madly in love and I lost the other side of my own personal purpose, you know, and I kind of enmeshed into his world.

49:10And I was like, oh my God. And now, as you know, we're, we're going through a divorce and I would never have imagined that would happen. But on the, on the other side of it, I'm like, oh, yeah. You know, it's like what I haven't learned yet, which I'm hoping I get now is that, you know, I have to keep myself intact. Like what do I love and what do I want to be doing? And can I love somebody else while I'm in that place? Because I would throw everything else out the window. It was like when I was building Drybar, it was like only Drybar. When I was like falling in love with this new man, it was only him.

49:46And I lost myself. And like he was building a business and he was really busy and he had little kids and whatever. And so I threw myself into his world and like kind of forgot about myself. And even now, and it hasn't been that long, but I'm like coming back into my own and I'm like this book and I have all these projects and I'm like, oh, I'm getting back to myself. And I would like to have love too, but like also, you know, and I've, so it's such a good question. I love that you asked it because I haven't been able to find it yet. And I get it now. And now I'm like anxious to like try it out, you know, and be like, can I be in love, madly in love, have the right kind of love with a person and myself and what I'm doing.

50:27I haven't been able to figure that out yet. And I think, you know, I think a lot of us, it falls, one of those things inevitably fall by the way, I guess, I don't know. I don't know how in other people's lives are like, you know, I just, you know, it's funny. I was, we were talking to a couple recently and they were, the wife said something like, you know, our marriage is good enough. And I was like, you know, and she said it in front of her husband and the husband was like you know and i was like oh there's definitely some stuff going back over there but it is interesting and it's like how do you do that i mean i don't know if you guys have figured it out no i mean i i don't the first thing is the challenging thing about any relationship whether it's business or marriage is that there's two minds and as we know our mind is always changing and growing and evolving now imagine that times two are they changing at the same time in the same way yeah no are they having the same thought at the same time every day no do they have the same dreams and aspirations every day no and so we should be more surprised when people get together and stay together than when people separate and move apart it's actually remarkable that anyone could spend their life with another person for a long amount of time than it is that people find it hard to stay i mean that statement in and of itself makes me feel so good because it's like i've had this shame i've i didn't want to be divorced once and now i'm heading into divorce twice and i've really i think a lot of my sadness and grief when this first happened was because i was like embarrassed and i was like i what like this second marriage i'm getting divorced again like holy shit you know and just all the like shame what's wrong with me but it's such which is why i really love and i hope people who are listening to that like feel that too because And I, I was telling you before, like I get a lot of people who now reach out to me and they're like, I'm really unhappy in my marriage.

52:22Should I leave my husband? And I'm like, I don't know. Don't ask me. But like, it's a good thing to ask yourself, you know? And I do think you're right. It's like we grow and change. And, you know, and in my case, I don't think we were having the right conversations enough of like, and we ignored a lot of things. And granted, it was like a really weird time. And our relationship got very fast track because of COVID. and like we moved in together after five months. I don't know that we would have done that had COVID not thrust this like very crazy change into all of our lives. And, you know, I think it all happened the way it was supposed to, but it is a like, yeah, we're always growing and changing.

53:00And how do you do that together? There's two kind of thought experiments that I think can help people with what we're talking about, not as solutions, but as, and it's what you just said. If you're not having the right conversations with yourself and if you're not having the right conversations with that person yeah everything's going to feel like a surprise yeah and everything's going to kind of be a random event yeah and all you can do you can't make someone stay with you and you can't make something work all you can actually do is track whether you're getting closer or moving further apart that's actually all you can do is track and monitor because like i said so much is changing all the time and so all you can do is track change yeah you can't force a result or a direction yeah you can only track change and try and move closer together and move apart and it's what you said like i think when we think about the word balance if you think about it we all have a finite number of hours we have a finite number of resources and we have a finite number of amount of energy so if you had a hundred percent and you said you've got yourself you've got your partner you've got your work you've got your kids and then you've got your family and you put 20 into each of those now you're going to get a 20 result on each of those that's a balanced life if we look at it in that way so it doesn't work it doesn't work or it may work for someone but the idea then being okay well now you got like a 80 return on your career which means 80 percent of your energy was going into the work part which means then five percent was going to all the others so you've got a huge 80 yeah that was me in the dry bar era yeah right and and and so when we look at that we just go well how can any human ever achieve right perfection any human including me including everyone we're so everyone is so limited that our ability to make everything and everyone happy and successful is mathematically impossible yeah so if it's mathematically impossible let's stop pretending that we're able to nail every part of every life and let's be honest and say i'm focusing on this in this era or this phase or this month or this year that naturally means i can't focus on these three areas and i think people who stay together or adapt or whatever in a healthy way are people who found a way of saying i understand what you're focusing on and i get that and i respect it but guess what when you're back and you have time i may be focusing on something else and so i think anyone who's navigating their relationship in a healthier way there's no better or worse but in a way that we would consider healthier is only because two people are communicating as you said enough yeah when they're just having conversations yeah it doesn't mean there's a perfect standard or there's complete intimacy at all times or they're having the best you know sexual relationships at all times while everything else is going on like it's not possible mathematically impossible yeah yeah it's so interesting too because i think you don't want you're avoiding dealing with something that you know is there, it's like you said, you're not always going to be on the same page.

56:04You're not going to, you're going to grow differently and whatever. And it's like, you know, in our case, it was like, we weren't, you have to, again, I don't mean to be like a broken record, but going back to like your inner, that inner voice of like, for, you know, for me, I knew there were things that weren't right. And I think now, and you know, I work with therapists and coach and I have lots people, you know, cause I love getting is I love getting as much. I mean, now I'm like, I love the feedback. Give me all the feedback. Like I really want to hear as many perspectives as I can. And from people that like, I really trust and admire.

56:36And, and, you know, one of the things that I was talking to my coach about recently was like, cause I've, I've been trying to like put a bow on this to like make myself feel better about it not working. And I've come to realize like, if, well, I'm like, if we had had the conversation that we weren't having, you know the right I mean you're shaking your head because you know what I'm gonna say what if we had talked about the thing maybe it would have worked maybe it wouldn't have worked like obviously nobody nobody knows you know and and and he and I had that conversation in in the aftermath of all of this like had we called out you know one of the big things that wasn't working for us early on that we both did not want to call out because it would have potentially probably meant the end of the relationship and we didn't want that you know we were very like wrapped up and like the excitement and the newness and the lust and the chemistry and the passion and all the things that happen when your brain, I mean, I'm sure there's some science on like what happens to your brain.

57:29Yeah, it's all in my book. Yeah, but you know, and so we weren't, we didn't have those conversations and perhaps had we had it, maybe it would have shifted and we could have figured something out that would have changed the trajectory of our relationship and it may be it had worked and maybe it wouldn't have, but we didn't even have the conversation, you know, and that's the thing. It's like you have to have those honest conversations in work, in business, you know, in business, in your personal life. And if you're avoiding them, it's going to come back around. Like you can be sure of that, you know?

57:59Yeah. I always say there are like, there are four check-ins that I do with my wife regularly. And so every day I try and ask her a simple one. What was your highlight of the day? Or what was exciting today? I love that. Which is an easy one. Anyone can ask that. Very simple. every week or month i'll ask you know is there something coming up that i can help you with like is there something you're struggling with or something that's on your mind that i need to be aware of or conscious of every quarter i'll ask is this relationship going in the direction you want Or is it going in the direction I've won?

58:35If it isn't, what are we both willing to do to put it in the right direction? Are you willing to do something and am I? And then every year, a simple one of like, well, what's your goal this year? Or what are you pursuing this year? And those four questions or check-ins don't save a relationship. They do what I was saying earlier is they help you track whether you're on the same page or you're completely on another page. And if you're even aware and conscious, and the reason you have to do that is those should be four check-ins you do with yourself. coming back to your point yeah like checking with every day and going myself what's my highlight today checking with myself every week or every month and going hey what do i need help with this month have i asked for that every quarter is my life going in the direction that i wanted to go in and every year what am i pursuing like if i'm not checking in that with myself and i'm not checking in that with my wife then how can i know myself and how can i know this human and i think the assumption that i know someone like i've you know me and my wife have only been together for 10 years but it's all i know is that she's a constantly evolving growing human sure just because she's over 30 doesn't mean that she's fully formed and done oh god no and neither am i and just like your children are growing up your sons are changing and growing i think we assume that kids grow and adults stay the same yeah and it's like well wait a minute that's so untrue yeah and and i think that's what i'm always trying to stop my mind from normalizing that, oh, I know her now.

1:00:03Oh, I know how she's going to react. Isn't it? It's such a like that fixed mindset. And I'm so guilty of that because I'm such a like, I want everything wrapped up in a pretty bow. I'm like, I like things like really neat and clean and tidy, like physically, you know, that I'm like, I just want to know what's happening. And like, you know, accepting uncertainty and like life is completely uncertain. And if you can surrender to that, like, but I, it's just, it's hard, you know, It is really hard to be like, okay, I'm going to like go with the flow. And I read that, who is it? Bruce Lee's daughter wrote a book called Be Like Water.

1:00:38Oh, yes. You know, and I was like, and I love when I remember it because I feel like I need like posters all over my house of like the thing that you just said and all these things. You're like, oh, yeah, you can't fight the current. Like you can't, you know, you can't fight it. And it's like if you can surrender to it and like, you know, and that the fact that we are always changing and growing and I love that you said about tracking it. And I think there was a phase in our relationship when we were doing more of like check-ins and we probably had listened to something like this and we're like, oh, we should be checking in more.

1:01:06And then eventually we stopped doing that. It stops, yeah. And you're like, oh man, we lost our way, you know, and it's just so easy to do that. And, you know, and it really does like straddle the fence on business and personal because I did it all the time in the dry bar era when I would like, you know, stop paying attention to what was going on people around me and stopped having, you know, those conversations. like I really needed to be having and just like would get all like sulky and you know, like why wasn't I having this conversation? I was causing my own suffering, you know? And it's like we just as humans do that, which I, you know, which I think is like the self awareness piece.

1:01:42It's like the things that we use to nurture ourselves, like what we're listening to, what we're watching, what we're reading, you know, if you kind of, sometimes I'm like, especially in the last few months, having gone through, going through my divorce and being so sad and I'm like ingesting so many books and so many things. And I'm like, okay, I've read enough. I'm done. I'm good. But then I'm like, no, I'm not. I got to keep, I mean, I got to do at least a couple of things a day that like keep me on that spiritual path, you know? And it's like, what's the word I'm looking for? I don't want to say it's like a job or responsibility.

1:02:15Habit, you know? Daily practice, daily habit. Yeah. It's like, it's so important. It's so easy to lose track of that, especially when like something you get really excited or you meet somebody new and you're like, which is exactly what I do. I'm like, oh, I'm so happy now. I'm like, I got it. I don't need to do any of that stuff anymore. Like, you know, I gotta remember. And we're all there. And I want to thank you for being so like honest about it and so real and being so messy about it because I think that's all of us, right? Like that's what we're all looking for. And we're all looking to have a perfect start and a perfect end.

1:02:46And we're all looking to have like the perfect person and the perfect relationship with ourselves. And none of that exists. Talk me through this because I have so many friends who like you would feel shame and guilt for getting divorced. And so they never will. Or I have a couple of friends that have kind of had the courage to get to the other side, but they now experience the judgment or they feel the shame that comes from other people's projection of it. What is the hardest thing about getting divorced? Like what's the toughest part about it? I've been on both sides of it now. You know, we're the first divorce after 16 years.

1:03:24you know feeling like I did the love that I wanted and intimacy that I wanted wasn't there so I was like it was funny because I when I first left the marriage I was like you know like rearing to go and I was like dating really quickly and all of that and then very quickly my the thing happened with my son and then I realized that like dating wasn't so easy and now I'm a single mom and at the time my ex didn't really want to be talking to me and so it was like my world spun out of control and I fell into a bit of a depression. And I remember people telling me that like, even though you're not in love with your ex-husband anymore, he still held like a space and energy that is no longer there.

1:04:02And it's like a death. And I, for months and months and months, I refused to believe that. I was like, it's, it's not a death. Nobody died. Like I took it very literally. And I was like, he's, he's alive. Like I would not allow my brain to like understand that, you know, until I finally did. And it's like, you know, when you, it's like when the student's ready the teacher appears mentality and I was like I'm sure a lot of people said it to me but it was like I was on some show with this guy who wrote a book called energy speaks I don't know if you've ever heard of it and he was talking about energy and whatever and after the show I pulled him aside and I like very quickly told him what was going on and I was and how like I was you know coping with my divorce and I was in this depression and he was like listen your husband even though you don't love like love him like that and want to be with him he still held an energy that's gone And that is a very big hole, like black hole for you to fill in your life.

1:04:50And it's just going to, you know, take some time, which isn't rocket science. And I'm sure other people said it to me, but at that moment I was like, oh my God, it hits. Right. And so that change of life of like your whole life being one way and then it becoming another way. And in my case, like my son going through rehab and that like very hard time. So it was all rolled into like just being hard. and I was really sad and I was really struggling. And then the identity stuff started to kind of creep in too. And so that was hard, I think, from like more of an identity, like a personal identity standpoint was hard and like a rebuilding my life after so long.

1:05:33This divorce was quite different. It felt just much more like heartbreak, like I was heartbroken, like just heartbroken. And I'd never experienced that kind of heartbreak. Like I recognize now truly that it's for the best. And I think for both of us, for all of us, it's for the best. But it just hurts so bad that like to experience heartbreak like that, where you're like, oh, someone just put it really well that like trauma is the intersection of unexpected and overwhelm. And I think that's such a simple way to understand trauma. It's like this thing you didn't see coming really, And then the overwhelm of it, like the boom, you know, and that's kind of what it was for me.

1:06:17I was like, I may never recover from this. Like, that's how like devastating it was. I mean, I think, you know, cause I think I talked to you right around the time it was happening and, and I was so sad. It's like, I'm never going to be okay. You know, and I'm, you know, it's, and I'm okay. You know, and I've, and I've, when the fog starts to clear, cause it's like, it's real muddy when you're in it. And, you know, I mean, quite literally when you're in fog, you can't see. And it's the perfect analogy to me is like, I was in so much fog around it. And like, my ego was all like bent out of shape.

1:06:51And I was, you know, and I was worried, like my kids were going to be mad at me. And I was worried what the world was going to think and all this stuff. And then I was like, now as the clouds and the fog started to clear, I'm like, oh no, this was not ultimately the right thing, you know? And maybe in some universe, like had we had these conversations and we'd done this thing, maybe it would have been right. But it just wasn't. And this was the way it all went down. And I realized that like, oh, there's a lot of lessons here. And there's a lot of medicine. And I've learned so much. And I'm so grateful for it now.

1:07:26You know, like I'm still coming out of the anger of it a little bit. But I am ultimately just really grateful for all the lessons that I've learned. And I think I said this earlier. I like who I am. on almost every level now more than I did then, I had, it was a lot of tough lessons I had to learn. And I was looking at myself in this lens that I had not looked at myself through of like why he made that decision and why he didn't want the marriage anymore, which is just, I mean, you can imagine, I mean, you've put yourself in those, in that first second. If your wife was like, I want a divorce right now, you, you would just be like, it's devastating if you're, you know, in love with somebody.

1:08:10But then when, and so I was like, I've tried to now put myself in the very painful place of like, why, why didn't he want to be with me? And sure, like not to go down the rabbit hole of like, I'm a terrible person and I'm not worthy. It's not that. It's more of like, let me see what the things were that I didn't like about myself that I can now see through his eyes. And this is not a conversation with him. This is a conversation with me and how I perceived a lot of things and the way I acted and the way I showed up a lot that I don't like, you know, that I'm like, oh, I don't ever want to show up like that again.

1:08:45And what a gift and what a lesson to like be this better version of myself now. So to answer your question, those were like the hardest things of it. But it is I'm literally living proof that you can you will get through it. And everybody kept saying that to me. And I would grasp onto that. Like when people would say you're going to be OK. it's gonna I promise you're gonna be okay and I would like hold on to that like thank you I needed other people to say it to me because I couldn't find it in myself I could I didn't believe it but if enough people said it to me like I promise you and so many people said that to me I promise you you're gonna be okay it's you know it's it's a beautiful thing to have like a community of people around you that will tell you that and that you and I'm like are you sure like do you know and they're like i know you know and it's lofty but it's true you know so you know what i find so hope giving about your choices is that you turn towards people things ideas that would help and support you and i think that that's the hard part like it's so easy and it's natural and should not be judged at all but it's so easy for you to go off the rails and go in different direction and the fact that you had the inner wisdom and the intuition to say actually i'm going to turn towards advice and therapy and coaching and insight and learning and reading and hearing this message from a supportive community like that's what i want people to take away because i want you to hear that that that's the choice we have to try and make and something you said this concept you're talking about the intersection something sparked for me as you said that and i was going to complete your sentence but i didn't want to because you know what i you know i didn't know what you were gonna say and that's why i waited because i didn't know what you'd read or heard but i was thinking about it that when i heard the word when you think about trauma or even like a trigger that eventually leads to trauma it's actually the intersection between an unexpected event but a familiar feeling and so there's what you were talking about earlier as well like how you repeat your parents marriage like the idea that it's an unexpected because you didn't think you would ever do that right but then it's a really familiar feeling and you're like oh i i feel that or like i'm going through a divorce someone's asked me for a divorce it's an unexpected event but it's a familiar feeling of i don't like myself already and this is a reminder of something i know deep down yeah and it's that familiarity with that unexpectedness that completely yeah converges to create such disharmony and misalignment yeah it really does it's so painful because you're like and it's amazing when you have like a great support system around you telling me that no, you're a good person.

1:11:22It's like, you know, my best friend, she would tell me like, we would, yes, you have culpability here, you know, and we would, she knew it, my relationship very well, because she's my best friend. But no, you're not a bad person. You know, there are things that you had to learn about yourself. And there are things that, you know, you want to change, but there, it doesn't mean you're a bad person. And it's hard to live in that duality of like, beating yourself up in the shame that we can put on ourselves because this marriage failed. And I'm like, because in the beginning, I was like, this marriage failed.

1:11:55I'm a terrible, you know, I'm a terrible person. No one's ever going to love me again. Any, any man I'm going to date is gonna be like, oh, you were married twice. Sorry. See ya. You know, which isn't true, you know, but it's, it is the things that, you know, we do, which, you know, I have spent a lot of time. A lot of the stuff that I read is on like, you know, mindset and the brain and how powerful the brain is and how we can change our thoughts. And that stuff's also fascinating to me, you know, like that you can, we have control. I didn't believe that until now, like until very recently, I was like, it is what it is, you know, but now I'm like, oh, we can change our thoughts and we can, you know, decide.

1:12:36And, and it's like, there's a, to me, there's like a, well, you still got to grieve the thing, but I can also, because I was like, you know, I started listening to Joe Dispenza. Yeah, of course. Yeah, he's been on the show four times. Oh, right. I think I might have discovered him through your show, actually. I love that guy. And I love what he says. You know, but I had the people be like, yeah, his stuff is great, but like you still have to grieve the stuff. Because I was like, I'm just going to believe this, you know. And it's like, but there's still the grief over there. And I think that's another challenging part of like anything like dying is that the grief your body physically needs to go through.

1:13:11if you change your mindset too fast and like you know it's kind of an interesting I think it's a little of both I'm really fascinated by by the whole thing the brain can do yeah yeah absolutely when you look at grief and loss it's like there's the grief and loss of that person right and then there's the grief and loss of the person you were with that person yes and they're two different things because you were a particular type of yourself there was a part of yourself that was connected to that individual and now not only has that person gone that part that you'd created with them has also gone yeah and it's no longer existent and so there's some identity so layered is such a fascinating subject in and of itself and it's like you weren't complete in the first place either and so there's there's just so many layers to it that are so challenging and all of these things that you're talking about whether it's your work your marriage your kids they put a spotlight onto all of this yeah and all the gaps what would you say was the most important lesson you took away from your first relationship and then your second relationship because you've just you were talking so much about it was all about lessons I told him what would you say was the first one that you took away from the first and then from the second what have you taken away what's been the big um lesson that stayed with you you know I think for me and it's pretty vulnerable to say, but like, it was like, oh, I think I rushed into both of my marriages because I didn't want to be alone and I wanted to be in a relationship and I just wanted to be in a relationship.

1:14:42They were right enough. I don't think anything's ever perfect, of course, but you know, I realized there were things in both of my marriages that weren't like exactly what I wanted them to be. And again, it's a hard thing to say because it's like nothing's ever exactly what you want it to be. With some of the things that were happening with us, I think I actually was pretty open and honest about them. But we, what we weren't open and honest about was like what I actually needed it to be. And if it wasn't going to be that, like, then it probably wasn't going to work. And we both needed to like come to terms with that.

1:15:12So, you know, I think the lesson is like really level setting what you need and what that other person needs, not just what you need. Like sometimes you have to be the one that's willing to say like, I don't think this is going to work because blah, blah, blah. But like, to me, I don't think I've ever been strong enough to be like i'm completely in love with you but i don't think this relationship is going to work like who can do that that's so hard i'm sure people do you know it's like i think about it like so silly i think just because i've watched so many movies in my life like legend of the fall did you ever see legend of the fall you know i mean it's like it just it just it came to me recently i was like you know you watch one of those movies and like you want the like the love story to work and then it doesn't and you're like and you you walk out of that movie it's like so sad and you're like I just wanted them to be together you know and that's how I feel in this second marriage like I really wanted it to work and as the viewer watching the movie you're like I know it wasn't right it wasn't supposed to be and it's like you know and that's I felt like Legends of the Fall you know it's like I feel like that in La La Land oh yeah oh my god that's even better La La Land like why weren't they together at the end you know you're and you watch that movie and I've watched it a couple of times such a great movie and you're like you know she marries another other guy and you're sorry for anybody who hasn't watched La La Land.

1:16:28It's been a while though. Yeah. And it's, that is really how it's like landed for me in this, like, sometimes like what we want to work just doesn't, you know, and you have to just learn to accept it. And I think that's, that's been the big lesson for me is like, you know, a lot of people and people close to me know and have said to me in the aftermath of this, like you've, you've had things work out for you pretty well, most of your life, you know, and I have, and I'm really blessed and lucky in that way. and this has been like one of the first things that like didn't work out the way I wanted to and I couldn't control it you know no matter what I did I couldn't change the outcome and like oof that's rough you know and I'm sure and I know a lot of people have dealt with that on a much bigger and harder scale than me and and so that was a real lesson of like surrender of like you just don't get control you know I look at my first marriage and think that like we were married for so long and for so long I didn't have that like electric chemistry love that I wanted but yet I had these two amazing kids and I built this great business and so like that was enough for me you know in this stage of my life I feel like I actually want more of it all now you know where I was always like well I have this I don't have that but I have this and now I'm like I want to do something that I really love and feel passionate about for myself and I want to have a great love too and now I'm trying to find both yeah yeah absolutely and and you know Ali like what I really appreciate about you honestly this conversation the book is like you're the real deal like a lot of people will say they want to share their messy truth and they want to tell what's really going on and I think it's almost like we're still trying to do it because it sounds and looks vulnerable but it isn't and that's not you know and i think that hearing from you today all i've heard is the truth and it's not been i can't think of anyone who's listening to this that isn't going to feel comforted supported held and feel connected to your journey in some way i don't think it's mathematically spiritually emotionally possible for someone to master every area of their life perfectly at all times i just i just want to throw that out there because we still keep putting it up when we say things like power couple when we say things like oh my god the perfect match when we say things like you know we don't realize how many ideas we've put into the world yeah that oh my god did you know they're both billionaires now and they're both and it's like you have no idea just how many ideas you're we plant seeds in people's minds that these headlines exist in reality yeah and if you're someone who knows anyone you know that the headline is so untrue yeah about everyone and that doesn't mean people can't have healthy relationships it doesn't mean people can't have happy relationships but do people have perfect relationships no and do people have perfect businesses no and do people have perfect anything no and so it's it's a mindset that we've all been so conditioned to believe it's why we feel sad when ryan gosling doesn't end up with emma stone like it's there's a it's because we've been taught that that is the perfect ending that is the perfect ending and there's so much wiring that we have to uncross and that's the work you're doing and i think that that that's what i'm so appreciative of watching and observing you on this journey is you're so courageously and bravely doing the hard unlearning yeah there's uh it reminds me of you know i'm sure you're familiar with michael singer and you know yeah there's been a few books that i'm like i've listened to on repeat you're just like i just got to keep listening to this to get like through the day it didn't sink into me until i started thinking about the whole movie thing which was like he was like you know if you're in heartbreak or you're in sadness he's like he equated it to again it only connected for me recently not when he said it but this like idea of when you watch a movie and you get sad about something it's like you and but then you tell all your friends about it you talk about it's like you almost like the sadness and the emotion that it brings in but it's just like when it happens to you you don't like it quite as much but if you can put yourself in that like it's just your movie you know and you're just watching it and you're not gonna feel sad forever you know it's such a good perspective of it it's funny how it's like come full circle for me of like oh this is my sad movie and it's sad and then it's okay and but it's also okay you know yeah and it's almost like just like a movie when you walk in and watch one part of a movie you don't get the full picture yeah yeah so you walked in on a sad scene or you walked in on a scene where one guy's chasing another guy and you think the guy being chased is the bad guy but actually it's the good guy Like there's just so much.

1:21:22Right. We look at people's lives in snapshots. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. You can't tell who's what and who's who and who's the villain and who's the hero. And yeah, becoming an observer in our own life is so hard to do. But Ali, we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. Okay. And so these are your final five. They have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. Oh, I love stuff like this. And I will ask you to go off if I feel like it. So question number one, what is the best entrepreneurship advice you've ever heard or received? Progress over perfection. You know, I think that we as entrepreneurs, we get stuck in this and I see it all the time of like, oh, I can't start this because I don't have this and I don't know this and I don't have enough money on this, but like just start and you know, it's never going to, I mean, we just talked about this, it's never going to be perfect, but just like, just go, you'll get it.

1:22:15You'll figure it out as you go. And I think that's what people don't realize that I fully agree with you. And that's where the mistakes are made. But the problem is there's no other path. So if you just waited, waited, waited, you never make any mistakes, but you never get anywhere. And if you start and you stumble, you will make loads of mistakes. And that's what kind of exposes you. And there's all these flaws and everything, but you got somewhere and it's that awkward messiness. Yeah. And it's like you, it's hard in the moment. Like anything that's like worth anything is hard in the moment.

1:22:41You know, it's like the mistakes are hard. It sucks, but you learn from them. I mean, it's very cliche, but it is so true, you know, and you're right. If you don't get into a relationship, like, you know, I have a friend who like is like, hasn't gotten into a relationship because she's kind of scared. I'm like, you just, just, just go. And even if it's not a good one, just go and like learn from it, you know, go on that date, you know? Absolutely. Second question, what is the worst entrepreneurship advice you've ever heard or received? It's interesting that earlier you pointed out how I, you know, I, I took the advice from the women that I was serving in my mobile business.

1:23:17What I didn't do was take the advice from like a bunch of men who didn't understand this business, you know? And I'm not a big fan of like decision by committee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not to say that I don't want like trusted people around me to help me make decisions. No, no, I get what you're saying. Yeah, it's like, I don't believe in this, like, let me just ask a million people and then figure it out. Like, I love using, you know, Steve Jobs, obviously a brilliant, brilliant man. It's like, nobody knew that, we didn't know we needed iPhones and maybe we don't need iPhones, but like we sure love them, but, but we didn't know we needed them.

1:23:48No, I know what you're saying. Yeah. Like even the, I feel like I saw a preview of the new movie coming out about the founders of Blackberries. Oh, I wonder what's that. I didn't know that. Yeah. I know. I saw it. I'm pretty sure I didn't dream it. And it, because you know, the story, the story is really fascinating. It's like, I, like, I think the premise of it is that the founder of Blackberry, this is so apropos to what we're talking about. It's like the people in his company came to him and said, like, I think there's something coming out. We need to change from what we're doing and like go into this smartphone world.

1:24:17And he was like, no, that's not going to work. That's not going to happen. And everybody in the company was like, I'm telling you, it's going to happen. And obviously we know it happened and BlackBerry went away, which by the way, my brother like had the last BlackBerry standing as he loved the little buttons. A lot of people did. And BlackBerry was like revolutionary. I had one. Yeah. Of course. They were amazing. They were the first thing, you know. but this this the story as as i believe it's set up in the preview is like that company could have taken the similar path as as iphone did but they didn't and and again i'm loosely remembering the story but i just think it's really fascinating that you got sometimes you gotta just like try something and see if it's gonna work and see if people are gonna want it and i and i'm i've always been a massive fan of steve jobs and i'm like so many others and the iphone and you know it's like Like, it's just so cool.

1:25:03Like this, you know, like he invented this thing that became this thing, you know? And so, you know, I feel like don't ever get too caught up in what people think of your idea. Yeah. Yeah. There's, you remind me of a famous quote from Henry Ford. He said, if I would have asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses. Yeah. And like that was the mindset. I'm going to steal that. I mean, that's great. Yeah. Because that is what it is. If you do that committee and that focus group, you can't necessarily think beyond what you see. Yeah. And, you know, and so many ideas don't make it and so many ideas fail and lots of them don't work, but like somebody's got to try.

1:25:37We wouldn't get anywhere, you know? Absolutely. All right. Question number three, what is one habit, mindset or practice that you believe every entrepreneur should try to develop? Some sort of awareness practice, you know, whether it's through entrepreneurship, like I listen to your meditations all the time. Yeah. And I've gotten into this place of every morning before I, not always, but most of the time, before I like get on my phone and check all my stuff and do all the things, like I keep my phone on sleep mode and get into a meditation while like I'm still in bed. And I think that like quiet time in the morning, and then I'll usually like write for a little while, not even like a page, you know, just something to get like the cobwebs out almost, you know?

1:26:21And I think it's, I think it's just important as a human, but you know, as a, as an entrepreneur, just to like, you know, like level set yourself. And I, and I really try to do it before I go to bed at night too. You know, I always go to sleep now, whether I'm really tired or not to like some sort of like sleep meditation. I think I only catch like the first like five or 10 minutes. That means it's good. Yeah. But I, I really love that. And I never had a practice like that before. And I'll tell you, I never had a practice like that until my, my separation happened. And I was like, huh, you know, I'm by myself.

1:26:53We used to like watch TV and then fall asleep. And like, again, that was, that's like one of those things that I'm like, I'm so glad. I almost never turn my TV on in my bedroom anymore. And I know that probably a lot of people don't believe even in that. And I'm actually about to move. I'm like, do I want to put a TV in my bedroom? Because I feel like I almost never watch TV in my room anymore. Because by the time I get in bed, I usually want to read. I want to do my meditation. I want to write. And by the time I do all that, I'm so tired. And I also, I don't know, I pick up so much random information.

1:27:23but I heard somewhere, somebody said it. Maybe it was you, who knows, because I watched so much of your stuff. But like by 10.30, you should be off screens. I think it was maybe Huberman who said it. And because from 10.30 to four, it's like your brain starts to go into depression. Again, I don't remember the science, but I was like, whether it's true or not, I like this. Like I want to be off my devices by 10.30. And so that's really my goal now, which I used to stay up and watch TV till like midnight. You know, I'm so glad I don't do that anymore. I feel so much better. I mean, I was also on a mission to like, I got to feel better here.

1:27:55Like I got to get out of this depression and the sadness. So I better do everything I can do. And now I'm like, oh, I'm not really that sad anymore. I'm not really, I'm not sad anymore, but I think I should still keep doing these things, you know? And so that I think is important to have that kind of practice. And I really have come to love it. That's beautiful. I love it. All right. Question four and five, uh, question number four, how would you define your current purpose? That's very clear to me right now is like giving back, being of service. Like I feel really called to like help others in lots of ways.

1:28:28Like I'm starting this volunteer program at CHLA, which I feel really called to. I'm looking at doing some stuff with animals and I do a lot of mentoring for other entrepreneurs. And, you know, in some things there's like, you know, money involved and I'm speaking at things and I, you know, and I think that that's okay and good. And then there's some things I'm just donating my time, but it's all in like in the name of service. it's beautiful for sure right now i love that all right fifth and final question which we ask to every guest who's ever been on the show if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow what would it be oh to be kind we're just so divided because of you know it's like i mean i think it's deeper than that but it's like this notion of like you know even i i said i read something the other day that was like anger is just grief we had to like it was just like innate in us to be kind to other people.

1:29:22Like you imagine what kind of world it would be so much better. Well said. Everyone, the book is called The Messy Truth. How I Sold My Business for Millions but Almost Lost Myself by New York Times bestselling author Ali Webb. You can grab the book right now. It's out right now. Share it. Make it your next book club pick. Discuss it. Dissect it. I mean, if you want to have a real entrepreneurial story and journey in your hand, this is the one to have. Ali, thank you so much. for coming on the show today. This is amazing. Genuinely being so open and honest and courageous in your own life and here.

1:29:56And I look forward to continuing our new relationship. Me too. And I'm very grateful for it. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. If you love this episode, you will also love my interview with Charles Duhigg on how to hack your brain, change any habit effortlessly and the secret to making better decisions. Look, am I hesitating on this because I'm scared of making the choice because I'm scared of doing the work? Or am I sitting with this because it just doesn't feel right yet? This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given.

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