Bill Gates: The Untold Story of Who Bill Gates REALLY Is

29:03How did you reconcile that towards the end about your father's style and how did you make space for that and accept that? In that generation, my dad's career was a very big thing. In fact, having all sorts of adults around for events was connected to his career. And he did very well. He was a top lawyer in Seattle. So I never resented the idea that my dad was very busy. You had kids early. The man's career is important. Later, my mom also not only is doing volunteer activities, but as people wanted women on boards because she had the right background, she got a huge number of those opportunities and she got a little busy herself.

29:52You know, I don't think the amount of time is the only key factor there. Yeah, I'd have to agree. When I was reading it too, I was thinking that, and this was what I found so interesting, Bill, when I was reading Source Code, that even though you have lived such a otherworldly life in so many ways, there were so many relatable moments from a parenting standpoint. And when I was reading it, I was thinking about my father too, who wasn't around a lot when I was younger. He was working, both my parents had to work. And to the point you just made right now, like my father wasn't there when I was playing rugby or he wasn't there when I was swimming for my, you know, local club or he wasn't there on the sidelines cheering.

30:36and for me that really allowed me to become the man I wanted to be and it allowed me to have more freedom almost to not feel like there was this heavy expectation and I've always seen that as a positive thing because it allowed me to have a broader definition of what it meant to be a man what it meant to be a son what what it meant to go off and discover something that I was passionate about and so even seeing you kind of having your mother be the one who was almost you know pushing the expectation and what the family should be, but then having a bit of freedom, it was interesting to see how that impacted you, to be able to push back, to be able to, you know, even at one point, like you said in that letter, like parent him almost in his decision and play that role.

31:19So it was refreshing for me to read a book about you where I was actually seeing parts of myself in certain relationships in a very relatable way. Did you ever anticipate that when you were writing it? I was surprised, you know, so when I'm describing going on those hikes, I was thinking, boy, would I have let my son go off? And we really are holding back children a bit more, you know, out of a sense of, okay, ultimate safety, I guess. But, you know, in that generation, I was allowed to take trips and hikes and I think it benefited me. And so writing the book, I was like, wow. And you've talked with people like Jonathan Haidt about this.

32:05Are we a bit overprotecting kids so that they don't get to make mistakes or try themselves out or mature the way that is best for them? Do you think school's failing children? If you have 30 people in a class, it's pretty tough. You're going to have some kids who are behind and some who are ahead. And, you know, even the best teacher has got a big challenge with that. Education, I wouldn't say, is much better or worse today than a few decades ago. We've always thought, okay, when we bring the computer in, you know, will that help? And certainly if you want to find information, it's been great.

32:44We're still working on that. Now with the AI, maybe a personal tutor will be encouraging and work on your level. It's early days, but I've been out seeing some of that in classrooms. people like Saul Kahn with Kahn Amigo that our foundation is helping to support. But education, the computer has not made it so, oh, wow, kids learn a lot more today than they did a long time ago. And I still believe we can change that. But it means if you're in one of those large classes, you can feel lost. And, you know, we're missing, you know, great human potential. What are we getting wrong? Because it sounds like you felt maybe the computer would give people that impetus and the ability to download more and learn more.

33:32Where have we gone wrong? Well, the key is motivation. If you have a kid who's super motivated, then yes, going to the Khan website and doing hours of math problems, that's great. But in a way, that takes the kid who's in that top 20 % and makes him even more intimidating to the other ones. And, you know, people can come in and if a kid in eighth grade says, is math a subject you have any confidence in? If they answer no to that, they're five times more likely to drop out. And so we do lose kids and it's more out of motivation. And so most of the stuff we've done on the computer is about, okay, if you are motivated, we'll help you out, and not so much about how you make it feel relevant to them and give them a sense of success.

34:27And maybe this time around with these AI personal tutors, we'll get that right. But kids check out. No, I'm not one of those kids who's good at math, even though for a lot of professions and, you know, for college courses, we require Algebra II tests to be passed in order to go on and even be a nurse or a policeman. So we have work to do, but more on the motivational side. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50 % and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter, park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park.

35:13This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we're taking a closer look at a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of men each year, prostate cancer. I first found out about my cancer at the age of 45. Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence. In this episode, we'll explore the science behind detection along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health. Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app, search Health Discovered and start listening. I'm Radhi Dvlukia and I'm the host of a Really Good Cry podcast and I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Ury.

35:54Logan is a dating expert, a behavioral scientist, a best-selling author and someone who is seriously changing the way we think about love and dating. In our conversation, we talk all things dating that Logan has studied and tested from what to put in your dating profile, the pictures you should and shouldn't be using to the conversation starters that actually work. And the huge no-nos that people probably do not realize are reducing their chances of success on apps. Whether you're single, dating, or just trying to be more intentional in love, Logan offers the kind of clarity we all need. Relationships do require work and the best relationships are people who really work on them together.

36:30They're so focused on if I find the perfect person, then I'll have the perfect relationship. Instead of understanding really that they can choose someone great and then build that relationship together. They don't need to keep searching for perfection. Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, I really appreciate you saying that actually, because I do think that we think about changing education is so theoretical and functional, but it is the drive, it is the motivation. And I was thinking about how we put limits on ourselves. when I finished sixth grade, I remember before I went to high school, my favorite subject was math in sixth grade, and my least favorite subject was art.

37:10And then when I finished high school, my most favorite subject was art, and my least favorite subject was math. And it was just fascinating to me how that completely flipped over a seven-year period. And as I've grown up in my own life, I found that art and design, philosophy, economics are far more where I naturally gravitate toward. But so much of that up until sixth grade was the limits or the things that were expected of me as opposed to what I was motivated and driven towards. And I was thinking about something you said in the book. You said that if you were growing up today, you would have been diagnosed with being on the autism spectrum.

37:46And I was wondering, how would that have affected you? How do you think that would have affected you? Yeah, I'm fascinated by that because for some people, being given a label is a pejorative to them and, you know, almost feels shameful. Although we know, you know, being on the spectrum gives you, you know, almost some superpowers of concentration that if you find the right place, it can be helpful. Other people, they're glad when they get that because then they say, oh, that's why, you know, my social skills were slowed to develop. And, you know, here's some strategies that people like me have used.

38:26I'm not alone in this. I fit into this, and it's actually a reasonably common thing. There isn't like some medicine. ADHD, which I probably also would have been diagnosed with, they do have the focal and adderall, a variety of things they give kids for that. And I still wonder about that. I haven't chosen as an adult to get a diagnosis or use those medicines, I think eventually you learn to, you know, adapt. I still kind of rock a little bit that when I'm thinking hard and without even knowing it, and it does bother people sometimes. And that's definitely kind of a, what they call self-stimulation behavior that, you know, makes it pretty likely I fit into that diagnosis.

39:19Do you think it would have changed your trajectory or success? Have you thought about that? I worry that I might have thought of it as pejorative. It's really how you communicate it. I mean, if you say, hey, here's a kid who doesn't socialize at all, and you're sort of destined to never be good at those things. Obviously, to create a company, hire people, motivate people, go out and, you know, sell the dream of computing. I've had to, even though I'm not a natural, you know, develop a lot of social behaviors. And it might have discouraged me unless it was done in a very tasteful way. You know, I think of that Dr.

40:04Cressy experience where he didn't make me feel terrible while enlightening me that I was wasting my time as well as my parents' time. Yeah. Did you continue therapy after that or ever go to therapy again? Most periods of my life, I found it useful to have a therapist where I'm talking to about what's confusing or what's troubling. I think I'm very lucky to have that. I think particularly if you have a life where some extreme things happen, that luck is a huge part of that to keep you on the ground. A good therapist can play an invaluable role there. So yeah, I've benefited to this day from those kind of conversations.

41:00Yeah, well, I was thinking about in the book, obviously, you beautifully introduced us to Kent. and obviously the loss of Kent seems to be a place in your memory that's naturally so difficult and fuzzy and you talk about in the book how you're not quite sure what your parents would have said and how it all felt and I was just wondering if there were any did you did you have support at that time through therapy and other ways to deal with that grief no and I've been looking recently people like Anderson Cooper are talking about okay how do you deal with grief and you know a lot of what they come up with is that if you can keep talking about the person and, you know, what you got from them, you're kind of honoring them.

41:42You know, Kent's parents obviously were the most affected by this because, you know, they would never have this incredible son and, you know, who would have no doubt gone off and done incredible things. And I remember spending time with them for like a year afterwards and then feeling a bit guilty that as I got busy, I didn't do that as much. You know, in the book, I actually start out where I've seen Kent's father. I run into him right as I'm starting work on the book. And, you know, we can talk about what a great influence he had on me. And, you know, so I did think that was helpful, but boy, it took me a long time because death, it was just such a shocking thing.

42:30I have this idyllic childhood other than Ken's death, nothing at all traumatic. And we're talking all the time. You know, a little bit, I reached out to Paul to kind of feel Paul Allen, who goes on to found Microsoft with me to step in and, you know, be that super close friend. But back then, the idea of how you dealt with trauma was mostly, hey, buck up, you know, get on with things, which after a few months, I did. Yeah. And also at that time, you're talking about how he actually invited you on the trip he went to. And like, you're talking just before he goes off. And then all of a sudden, you're like, wait a minute, we used to talk every day or, you You know, and that, it can feel so disassociated from yourself in that moment, it feels like.

43:22How did you revisit that? Did you kind of turn towards working through the grief as you wrote the book? Did it feel like you were revisiting it? Oh, definitely. You know, at that high school when I built a hall in his name and, you know, gone out there and talked a little bit about the role that Kent played in my evolution. You know, so some efforts to honor him. You know, sadly, you know, Paul Allen, also the other key friend in this book, died, I think, about six years ago from cancer. And, you know, he also was very key at getting me on the right path. And there wouldn't be, you know, without those two friends, you know, there really wouldn't, probably wouldn't be anything like Microsoft.

44:14Yeah, you talk about how Paul was setting you little challenges and would ask you to, you know, try this or do that. And then you'd go ahead. And I was thinking how amazing to have a friend that can motivate and inspire you in that way. And then I was thinking about what you just said when I was reading the book that it felt like you told so many stories of so many people in your life that are no longer here now. And so grief wasn't just about Ken or Paul. It was just so many individuals that you've had life with that you're having to process that with. What has been helpful for you genuinely deeply inside that has led to some sort of helpful direction with that grief of writing a book about all these wonderful people that you've lost?

44:57Well, most of my life has been about looking forward. Yeah. And, okay, let's get this innovation. Let's do it first. And, you know, whether it's software or saving children's lives, which is the big foundation thing. And it is a little bit unnatural for me to look back because you have to say, okay, how do I describe my relationship with my mom in an open, honest way and yet honor her? You know, how do I talk about Kent? where I don't know if he'd lived what would have happened, but probably something that he would have very much been a part of it. And so it's awkward to look back because you have to deal with these things and talk about, you know, should I have spent more time with his parents afterwards, you know, because eventually I stopped doing that.

45:50But, you know, this year I turned 70. I mentally don't feel like I think of a 70-year-old, but, you know, it means, you know, I'm in the final third, no doubt, of, you know, what I've been very lucky to live. And so, you know, I really did force myself to say, no, there's some lessons out of this, you know, telling people how lucky I was and maybe a few lessons for them as parents or how they navigate success. And so once we got going on it, I've enjoyed it quite a bit. I have to say when I'm reviewing it and editing it, I'm very slow because I'm, you know, reliving these things. So it always takes me about three times longer to take some pages and edit than I predict.

46:40Or if it was, you know, something like about climate or pandemics, you know, I'm pretty fast. There's no deep emotion that I have to relive as I'm editing something scientific. What was your favorite part to relive and what was the hardest part to relive? Well, everything about the fascination we had and you're like, wow, we see this thing. These computers are going to be amazing. But no one else is saying that. So we must be wrong. That's crazy. And, you know, that contradiction. So, you know, Paul, actually, I helped him get a job out in Boston so he could be out there and bugging me that, okay, should we go build a company?

47:28And then finally, when this kit computer, which is so limited, but it's the beginning of the revolution, when that comes out, then, you know, Paul's argument, we should go and do something, he wins because we don't want to be left behind. We want to want to be there from the very beginning. And then we meet a few people, although it was still a very small movement. We meet other people like Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs, who also, you know, have been infected with this idea of, okay, we're on to something that is going to be huge. That part, I mean, the research that you did to find in this book, I was, every time I was reading, I was just like, how do you have so much detail?

48:10I was really blown away by the level of detail, both in the storytelling, every moment. But then even there's that note that you have that says, Steve Jobs called was rude. And I was just like, you know, even just having that back then, I was laughing as I read it. And I was wondering, like, I feel like from the outside and naturally, and you talk about this later on in the book, how we see people as this slither of who they are and people have a public profile and that becomes their brand. And if you look at it from the outside, you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy, kind of like arch rival, nemesis kind of portrayal.

48:51What was it actually like? Because in the book, it comes across much more inviting than that as opposed to this kind of harsh rivalry. Well, I had a fantastic relationship with Steve. Early on, I got to do the basic, which they called AppleSoft, that went with every Apple II computer. So I worked with both Jobs and Wozniak to get that done. Then later, as Steve has a kind of small group inside Apple doing the Macintosh, he invited Microsoft to write application software, a spreadsheet word processor for it. And so we actually had as many people as they did, and we worked very closely on that project.

49:35And he and I loved the fact that, you know, that ended up being a key Apple product. Then he leaves Apple. I talked to him about Next, but I never thought that computer would do that well, so he was disappointed. But then when he goes back, and it's unbelievable what a great job he did because Apple went from being on the way to dine to being the world's most valuable company. And Steve had really matured, and it was something, and we helped write software for that. Then later when Steve is sick, we had about five different conversations where we got to talk about kids and, you know, had computers done well and, you know, where he was pretty thoughtful.

50:25It's amazing to me that Steve, you know, his skill set and mine, other than, okay, you know, madman, leader, you know, drawing people in. But he, his taste in design and user interface and even his intuition about people, he was just genius in a way you can't explain. He didn't look at code and write code. Whereas, you know, my thing is, hey, I'm an engineer. or, you know, here's the code, let's make it faster and smaller. So actually that allowed us to get along because, you know, what he was super good at, I was not good at. I envied those just incredible talents that he had. And in some ways he's more singular.

51:09You know, if you say to me, are there other people like you who are great at writing code and conceptualizing? Yeah, I can name a number of people, including many who worked with me, but I don't know somebody who I say, oh, yeah, he's just like Steve Jobs. Wow. Well, that's very humble of you as well. I mean, that's beautiful to hear. What were some of those final conversations like that you had with him that were potentially, I always felt like he was so philosophical and maybe more so in those moments? Yeah, we did one public appearance, you know, where we were being thoughtful about the friendship.

51:44Walt Mossberg had us on stage together, which was definitely a fun thing and surprised people because Steve was very harsh. You know, he was a, you know, he said we were the General Motors and he was like the Mercedes. But, you know, all in, it was all very fair. Well, we, you know, we reflected that computers really hadn't improved education and where both he and I had given speeches saying, of course, this will make education, you know, know, five times better. And we were like, wow, we got that one wrong. Maybe, you know, maybe next round we'll deliver on that promise. And, you know, how unusual it was, even a little bit lonely that, you know, when you were so successful and then you're having doubts about, okay, are we making mistakes here?

52:38You know, both of us had had kids by then. He was actually, you know, Of course, he not only did Apple, he did the Pixar stuff. And because that was a realm I'm not in, I could sincerely tell him what a brilliant job he did. Not partly picking people, but that's kind of amazing. Now, part of Disney. And both a sense of thankfulness, although he was very sick and just hoping some new drug would come along. And tragically, it didn't. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50%, and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter, park faster.

53:23ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. This week, on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we're taking a closer look at a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of men each year. Prostate cancer. I first found out about my cancer on my birthday at the age of 45. Found out my cancer has spread to my pelvic bone. And from there, life just changed. About one in eight men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer during their lifetime. And the risk increases with age. Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence. And the only thing I could think about was, who's going to take care of my family?

54:07You have to go out there and build your support system. You got to build your team. In this episode, we'll explore the science behind detection, along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health. Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app, search Health Discovered, and start listening.

54:33Yeah, was there a memorable piece of advice or conversation where you said something to him or he said something to you that has stayed with you? Well, the fact that, you know, why were we both so competitive and pushing ahead? I think both of us, you know, in his case, he's an orphan. So he has a more complicated childhood that maybe can explain his zeal. I don't have anything like that, you know, even though Kent died. That's not why, you know, well before that I was somehow always, you know, pushing as hard as I could be. And, you know, I think both of us, you know, being thankful for what we'd been able to work on.

55:13I mean, you know, we got more of a front row seat and helped build this thing. Steve never got around to doing philanthropy. Now his widow, Lorene, is doing great philanthropy. be. So, you know, that's, uh, I'm sure he'd, he'd be proud of that, but he didn't get to that stage. And I was just getting into that stage. So I shared with him a little bit about, wow, a lot of children die and we don't do much to stop that. And that kind of intrigued him, but then he never got to pursue it. Yeah. You're, you're reminding me of something I read in, uh, Bob Iger's book where he was talking about how there was a time when Spielberg, George Lucas, they'd all sit together and then they'd watch each other's movies and give them feedback.

55:58And they all felt very confident doing that because they knew their strengths and their uniqueness were so diverse. And so they didn't feel threatened that, oh, well, Stephen's going to steal my idea or, you know, George Lucas is going to steal my idea because they felt so confident. And it sounds like even for yourself as competitors to talk, to have a relationship, does that still happen today? Do competitors talk? Do they pick up the phone to each other? or was that very rare? Because it feels like, it feels definitely now so less. I have a good friendship both with Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg.

56:34Elon stands by himself. Maybe that drives everybody else together. I don't know. And, you know, over time, I think Elon, as he gets older, maybe he'll mellow out a little bit and, you know, probably be an incredible philanthropist based on everything else. that he's done. But yes, there is some good conversation. You know, Larry Ellison is now in a phase where he's doing some excellent philanthropy and we're all a bit more reflectful. I mean, hopefully by the time you get to 70, you've been hyper-successful. You can, you know, relax and let your guard down a little bit and, you know, laugh about the things you got wrong.

57:14Yeah. What was some of the advice that you've given to Mark or especially earlier on his journey or even more recently? Yeah, well, you know, Microsoft, the one big challenge we had is we were so successful by the late 90s that we got into antitrust difficulties. And in retrospect, we could have handled that better. And so I've been very open with Mark. You know, I used to brag that I didn't have an office in D.C. and I didn't, you know, what a great country that I didn't have to talk to politicians. Well, that was a mistake. And, you know, now, you know, you've got all of them going to the inauguration.

57:54And, you know, so they're not making that mistake. Maybe they have they corrected too much in another direction. Well, you know, history will judge. So, yeah, I'm, you know, it's weird to be kind of an elder statesman. You know, Satya, who runs Microsoft, has done such a brilliant job. And one of my great fears when I left Microsoft to go do philanthropy was how bad I would feel if it wasn't doing well. And so Steve Ballmer did a great job, and now Satya's with this AI generation. So that's another great blessing is that not only the value of the stock, but also the fact I can just focus on, okay, what about polio and malaria, knowing that they're taking the company to new heights?

58:43It's, you know, what a great blessing that's been for me. Yeah, it seems like, I love what you were just saying now that, you know, maybe there'll be a time when Elon turns to philanthropy and you talked about others and it seems that that turning point for you is so key. And I feel like you were one of the first, not that it wasn't done before, but one of the first to do it in a really big way to be able to move away from this big company that you founded, world changing, generation changing, and then turning to that. And that service element to me, I was intrigued as to, why do you believe that that's almost where every one of these people need to go?

59:23Like, why is it that you believe that turning to a life of service and giving back is core for Elon or whoever else it may be? Well, it's pretty insane. This is a world where somebody can have over$100 billion. I mean, you know, what is that? And it's not... Thank you. You know, you don't want to just give that to children and create some dynasty. That's not even a favor to them. You want to give that back. So these are unprecedented. So these are unprecedented. malaricating malaria or solving malnutrition, there is something that philanthropy can have these outsized results in terms of lives saved, almost like a great startup does on the side of innovation.

1:00:26So getting those minds to turn those capacities to equity, to the poorest, both inside the U.S. and outside the U.S. I feel that we've got the golden rule. We're supposed to care about people. There are times when it feels like sympathy for poor people outside the country is lower today than it's been, but I know that'll come back around because of the moral logic there, I think. I believe is very, very strong. And I found it so fulfilling, and I created a group called Giving Pledge of people who've committed to give the majority of their wealth away. And we learn from each other. Hopefully, we inspire each other, and hopefully, we change the societal expectations that if you have even a modest fortune, most of it should combine with your talents and make the world a bit more of a fair place.

1:01:31Yeah, I think it's absolutely brilliant because I was really fortunate when I went out and lived as part of my time as a monk in India, we helped put together a, well, the monks were doing it already, but I got to be a part of it. I helped build a daily food distribution service in India that feeds a million kids a day. And it was all in exactly what you're saying, like to help them malnutrition children. And now they're even trying to figure out how much protein to have in it, like trying to figure out the actual composition as well. And I remember seeing that so early in my life, like I would have gone out there first time in my teens.

1:02:09And then later on when I became a monk in my early 20s. But the reason I raise it is because I think it goes back to what the point you made earlier about motivation. and one thing I've really been trying to figure out with the right partner recently is how when I grew up, I remember my dad used to read the rich list and he'd have the rich list like the Sunday Times or whatever it was and so as a kid, I would see my dad and on the back of it would be the rich list and I was thinking how incredible would it be if kids grew up with a service list and how would that change motivation because I feel we repeat what we reward and I feel like we've never really seen that case study yet up until maybe, you know, your case study and the people that are following with the giving pledge, that service becomes a natural part of life at that scale.

1:02:57I think we see it in smaller communities. You see people with very little actually doing so much, but you don't necessarily see it at that level. And so I find that changing that drive and motivation early on, which it seems like your mother had for you, your impact of faith had in you, I think that could be huge. I don't know what you think about people seeing a service list instead of a rich list or whatever the right word is. Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute than, you know, the impact you've had philanthropically. And part of the beauty of philanthropy is there's many causes out there.

1:03:34You know, I've tried to think through, okay, you know, since we know how to save lives for$1 ,000 per life saved, wow, we better use this money as absolutely best we can. And I do think we're going to see a rise in philanthropy. I mean, you know, these fortunes are almost illegitimate unless they are in a very smart way given back. If it's consumption, if it's dynasty, I don't think society should feel that good about it. And, you know, I sat down with Bernie Saunders and he said, no, he would outlaw billionaires. I think that's a mistake. I think allowing in America, in particular, wild innovation, wild risk-taking is good.

1:04:28But then on the backside of that, there should be a strong expectation. And I think role models help a lot. You know, Warren Buffett, a very different industry, very different skill set. You know, he's always been a role model. Almost the one who even when I was still building the fortune said, okay, your mom is right. And here's some books you should read. Carnegie, Gospel of Wealth, the history of what Rockefeller did. Because this will be as important a measure of your impact as making the money. Yeah, I think that's such a brilliant lesson and wonderful one to pass on. I think it was Trump who mentioned recently that you'd asked to see him to have a discussion.

1:05:17Did that meeting ever happen? Yeah, I had a very long and actually very impressive dinner in terms of he asked good questions. You know, I talked about over 10 million people are alive because of U.S. generosity with HIV medicines, going back to President Bush in 2003. And, you know, I encourage him to keep that as a priority and to accelerate innovation. You know, there's an idea that you might be able to cure AIDS that we're working on, and he could help accelerate that. I talked about polio eradication and how his leadership and the U.S. government resources are very important there. And, you know, I'm sure everybody's trying to meet with him.

1:06:04The fact he gave me that long period of time was actually pretty thoughtful in his questions. You know, somebody may come along later and tell them to cut that money, but I make the argument as best I can that, you know, the moral purpose of the U.S. and how we're thought of and, you know, the fact that a cure is on its way, that's worthwhile. You know, so this administration is in charge and, you know, trying to help them, you know, they're willing to cancel old things, some of which should maybe be canceled, some of which shouldn't. So they're helping direct them so they'll use their open-mindedness to do different things and try and make that come out well.

1:06:47And I think that's worth trying. Yeah. What do you see as the moral purpose of the United States in the way you mentioned it just now? Well, we've been the shining light of not only being a democracy ourselves and having political opponents respect each other and work well together, But also, you know, saying that even though we're in this very powerful position, we won't abuse that position. And, okay, if we allowed ourselves, you know, to let other people spend too little on some things, you know, there's a balance there. But if you become too much of a bully and you're not keeping democracy, which requires reducing the polarization and bridging some of these divides, that's a little bit scary.

1:07:38You know, democracy is a fragile concept and particularly at a time when AI is coming along and the government will have to play a strong role in saying, okay, these jobs have been lost, but we're more productive overall and therefore here's how we help those people. you know, how do we keep AI as a primarily beneficial thing versus a thing that bad people use and it messes up these job markets? That, I expect the 2020 presidential debate, AI policies will be the most important thing. And I was a little bit surprised in this election that wasn't discussed hardly at all. Yeah, that's such a good point.

1:08:24I didn't actually think of that, But you're right, it didn't come up at all. Yeah, that's fascinating. I mean, how do you prepare for something like that? It would need to be surrounded by the right people and having the parties. Well, you've got to educate everyone. You can't count on the technologists to shape these things. Social networking, we're still arguing about what the policies should be and the fact that algorithms reward outrageous things that even if they're not at all factual, and AI heightens all of that. And, you know, there's an era where getting the politicians to see the technology, including all this good stuff, personal tutors, better medical care, even making the government more efficient.

1:09:11You know, this is the most promising set of tools because bureaucratic paperwork and AIs actually are pretty darn good at reading and processing, those kinds of things. So, you know, we're on the precipice of these AI breakthroughs, the reliability and capabilities. You know, it's kind of an extension of what I worked on as a child, you know, personal computers, then internet, then cell phones, and now AI. but it's because it's super intelligence, it's of a different character. And it'll put us to the test on how we work together within the U.S. and how countries work together. Yeah, it's interesting because as you were talking about social media there, I think Mark Zuckerberg on Joe Rogan was saying that they are taking away their fact checkers and I believe X is doing something similar.

1:10:12What was your take on that? You know, this whole thing of how you balance free speech versus not, you know, discouraging people from using vaccines when that would be beneficial for them or even extreme stuff like Holocaust denial or some bad things there. I'm a little bit disappointed that my generation hasn't got a clear prescription to how we achieve both the goals, free speech and yet reasonable discourse that's not misleading people. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, the negativity about vaccines, some of which, you know, had me being some, you know, weird misbehaving actor, you know, which was a lot of craziness.

1:11:01You know, clearly over a million people died who should have benefited from the vaccine. and next time, you know, whether it's an out-of-control AI or the next pandemic, the impact of not getting facts out could be much more dramatic. I mean, you could have a pathogen that was 10 times or 20 times as fatal as COVID was, particularly once Omicron comes along. The fatality rate is actually reasonably modest and mostly elder people. So politics meets AI is where a lot of our fates will be determined even in the next 10 years. And how do you see your role in that? Well, hopefully, there's some things I really do understand about that.

1:11:56And whether it's giving advice to Microsoft or in my foundation work on education and health, using it. The place where you have the greatest shortage of teachers and doctors is in poor countries in Africa. So the fact that these things can give farmers advice and give pregnant women advice and look at what your kid is eating and say, no, you need more protein in this diet. And it's essentially free. You know, the way that computing was free that I saw when I was young, now we're getting into this even more radical thing of intelligence will basically be free. You know, that's kind of wild stuff.

1:12:37So I hope both with some specific ideas, but then with the lessons of the past of where we've been able to shape things so far, you know, so that I think personal computing has largely been an empowering thing. You know, I was reading this book, Nexus, where Harari says that when the printing press comes along, it actually is books about witches and how you find witches that are the best selling. So just thinking because we have new capabilities that will necessarily use them at first in a net beneficial way, that's sadly a naive concept. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut.

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1:14:37Yeah, I mean, you've raised such a good point there. Even this idea, I loved what you said that you said you wish your generation could have figured out how to have, not have these extreme polarizing conversations, but actually find this healthy middle ground, whether that be through algorithms, whether that be through how we use technology. What is it that, why do we keep doing that? It almost feels like that's a repeated mistake where we come across this horizon of this new world, new technology, new ideas, but then we always use it for almost the same thing or something that feels, you know, insignificant compared to what it could do.

1:15:13Where are we going wrong? Why can't we get that right? Well, it's kind of amazing how well humanity is done. You know, the violent death rate over hundreds of years have gone down a lot. You know, more recently, we've gotten vaccines out to children and gotten the annual death rate from 10 million a year at the turn of the century down to about 5 million. Vaccines being the biggest part of that because we got them out to most of the world's children. So humanity for a being that grew up in these small hunter-gatherer groups, now we have big cities, complex technology. Our ability to get along in some ways has been good.

1:15:56Nuclear weapons that when I was young, my greatest fear was, okay, there was going to be a nuclear war. And I do worry the current generation doesn't have that exposure to its war. The arms treaties and spending too much money. on building those weapons. I do worry that we've lost track on that one, but at least, you know, we haven't used those. And, you know, we've done pretty well so far. And, you know, will we this time? I think this is probably the hardest innovation because, you know, we do have human limitations. Even I, when I see an outrageous article against against somebody I don't like politically, I'm very tempted to click on it and have it tell me, yeah, he's even stupider than you thought.

1:16:46Or, you know, he, this is a mistake. You know, we're all subject to that. And, and we do like to form into groups, but, you know, all of humanity ideally is a group where philanthropically and, you know, government generosity, we can think of ourselves being part of that as opposed to a much, you know, our clan or race or nation. Yeah, I think on a global level, it requires what you are saying. And on a personal level, it requires us to almost be able to evaluate, assimilate, assess, you know, have self-awareness, allow for self-reflection, space for, you know, the things we don't have time for anymore.

1:17:34I was looking into something called the third space theory and how in the past you had your home, you had work, and then you had church or temple or community center. And how those three spaces, that third space was a place you could look back on home and work and say, I could treat my wife a little bit better or I could have spoken to my colleague a bit better. And that third space allowed that time and energy where it was all about reflecting on how you could improve. but today we've lost three spaces into two into one where we work from home live at home and the screen is our third space and so that lack of having a physical body or building that gives you permission to step back from your whole life not play a role there and and actually purvey what's going on in your life we've lost that yeah that's a shame yeah uh you know the decline of religion is a very strong trend, you'd hope there'd be a modern religion that takes whatever has put people off and yet preserves kind of this golden rule and this, okay, at a local community level, we're supposed to help each other.

1:18:46If you expect government to figure out how to solve things, you know, it's too bureaucratic. The local church-based groups, oh, this person needs help. I have extra time, you know, is way more effective. And so we expect too much from government in a way. So I hope we can re-energize, you know, perhaps through a type of religious modernization or maybe just a community thing that is maybe spiritual but not labeled as religion. that local engagement where you see other people that I think we need more of it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Bill, I've got you for a couple more moments. And there's a few things I wanted to ask you.

1:19:34One was, you talked about how in the book, how being the smartest person in the room and that status was something that you may be hid behind and your insecurities were hidden behind. And I was wondering, is that something that you've been able to put down that guard and take that away as time has moved on? How were you able to do that? Yeah, I've mellowed a little bit, you know, to learn how to work with people who are intelligent in different ways. You know, at Microsoft, I had to get marketing salespeople at the foundation, you know, people who go out in the field and do heroic work. And so my, you know, sort of single view of, okay, math capacity is, you know, this great thing, I've mellowed and, you know, been able to bring in different skill sets.

1:20:25But no, I started off being pretty bad at that. What were those insecurities that you were hiding? Well, you tend to manage other people the way you manage yourself. And so when I make a mistake in programming or math, I'm very tough on myself. And, you know, I'm like, you need to spend more time. You need to work harder. And it's kind of a tough love, don't fool yourself thing. And so, my early management style worked for people like me, but not as well for other people. And so, year by year, you know, I did grow with Microsoft. A lot of entrepreneurs, you know, don't stay as CEO and you have to bring in someone else.

1:21:08I wanted to do that. And so by bringing in some other people, I got better at that. I would say moving over to the foundation was another level of how you bring in a different mix of talent. And so, yeah, I'm trying. I'm still trying. I'll be better a year from now. Well, I was most excited that you said there's still two more books coming after this one to talk about the different areas of your life. And I really enjoyed this one so much. I'm so excited for people to read it, to get to know you better, to get to know the people that have changed your life for the better and allow you to do all the incredible, phenomenal work you do today.

1:21:49And I honestly am so inspired by the work you do today. And I really hope that I can be involved in some small way. So I thank you deeply. Well, thank you. It's been fantastic. It means the world. Bill, we end every episode with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So Bill Gates, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? You know, finding what you really enjoy doing. And hopefully there's some job that has that as opposed to, you know, what jobs pay well or other people push you to.

1:22:27If you're doing something you really enjoy, that's hard to beat. And you found that early. I was super lucky on that. Computers were there right when I needed them. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? People will tell you not to take risks, and it's very well-intentioned. But there are contexts. When you're young, people say, okay, it must have been scary to drop out. Not really. I mean, I could have gone back, you know, there's no flesh wounds involved in failure. You know, so failure's, you know, probably a better teacher and more of an okay thing. And I think this whole safety thing, physical safety, you know, emotional safety, in many cases, we've gone too far.

1:23:20Yeah. But did dropping out at that time feel like a big risk? No, it didn't. No, not even. The first time I felt it was when I was hiring people who moved their family and they had kids. And I was like, if I can't pay this guy his check, this is rude. You know, he's got a real problem. And I'm kind of implicitly promising him I've got this thing figured out. So that scared me. Yeah. There's a scene in the social network where you're on stage and Mark Zuckerberg's in the auditorium. and then they leave and they say, the speaker just said the next Bill Gates could be sitting in this room. And then Mark goes, that is Bill Gates.

1:23:58Is that true? That is absolutely true. Mark and I have laughed about that a lot, that our experience at Harvard, dropping out of Harvard, telling people that, hey, we saw something other people didn't see. Very, very similar. Question number three, what would you say is the most important problem the smartest people on the planet should be solving right now? There's many candidates, you know, making sure we don't use nuclear weapons, avoid bioterrorism, climate change, caring for the poorest, which we're kind of losing that. But I would say shaping AI has, for me, risen to the top of that list.

1:24:37We need to do all those. We can't just skip, you know, any of those. But this one is going to be a very big deal in the next decade. And what would be your advice to the biggest business leaders in the world in regard to that? Well, I don't think you can count on them. Their competitive framework is to go full speed. And so only government's in a position to say, wait a minute, slow down. You know, for the good stuff, you want them to lower the price and get it done sooner. And so we can't, although yes, they should be part of the dialogue and they're humans and citizens too. But you can't count on them because the metric for them is to go full speed.

1:25:26Question number four, what is your favorite mental health habit? You know, it's a very big deal for me to get time reading and thinking by myself, whether it's on a walk or going driving. When I was CEO of Microsoft, I took two full weeks, think weeks, one every six months where I would just go off by myself and think, okay, is Microsoft on track? What are the trends? Towards the end, I'd write a memo, which actually was kind of valuable as we navigated the twists and turns, like when the internet comes along or, you know, software's not reliable enough. You know, I need that time to think, even though I love quick thinking, You know, being in a meeting and spotting a mistake.

1:26:16Most of my good work has come from the kind of slow thinking where I'm off being reflective and maybe coming up with some non-obvious ideas. You know, maybe it's a little bit my, you know, being on the spectrum, I need that refreshment. And, you know, when I see my schedule with lots of social interaction for a week, then I'll try and make sure the next week has a little bit less of that. But, you know, to maintain creativity, you have to have some calmness and be not behind. If you feel like you're behind, like you turn on your email like, ah, oh, I'm late. you know that that your creativity gets gets squeezed out one of the first things and does that think we need to be in nature are you away from everything is it are you simply thinking are you taking books are you journaling or is it i'm taking books to read but i'm also taking very long walks on your own and just thinking about things and i love i take a tablet of paper and write things down quite a bit.

1:27:23And, you know, I'm pretty religious. I'm not taking phone calls. I'm not browsing the news. You know, the news can wait. You know, I'm off by myself 24 hours that whole time. Somebody can stick some food in. But, and, you know, that's kind of extreme. You know, there's people like Harari who meditate kind of an unbelievable amount. I almost envy him. I don't think I would go that far, but we should be more in his direction than we are. Yeah, absolutely. And what's the book you've gifted most, actually? I'm intrigued because you're such a big reader. You recommend so many great books. What's the book you've gifted to people close to you the most?

1:28:08There's a Steven Pinker book called Better Angels of Our Nature that talks about even though in the short run we see how tough things are if we zoom out a little bit and say, okay, 200 years ago, to be a woman, to be gay, 30 % of children die. Lifespan is less than 50 years. That's not saying there's a guarantee that those bad things we talked about won't happen, but people are a little overwrought and saying, okay, you know, this approach to government is failing. Maybe we should try something radical, like not, you know, being fully democratic. I'm like, whoa, wait a minute here. Yes, we need to feel bad about the things we're not doing, but we also need to have a perspective.

1:29:05The system of scientific inquiry and democracy and widening our circle of care, you know, beyond our family, clan, nation, as we discover new things and we can share more resources, that really is working. You know, it sounds naive to say that, but, you know, the books that really go through that, I find, you know, guide how I think about the world. Absolutely. Fifth and final question, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Well, if you look at all these religious texts, I'd say the thing they all eventually come back to is the golden rule, which is to treat people how you would like to be treated.

1:29:57I mean, say that you're about to be born and you don't know if you're going to be born a woman or in Africa. This is a thing that Warren Buffett taught me. You get to construct the world and how fair it is, and then we will randomly pick and you will be born in some place in some way. And I think the construct that would guide the world you'd want for that is very much going back to that golden rule. not, okay, let's win wars, let's out-compete or have more money or resources than other people. And so it's one of the few universal truths that we should have that guide our behavior. I love that.

1:30:47Bill, thank you so much for your time on On Purpose today and genuinely so grateful for your time and energy. It was thrilling to talk to you and I love getting an early copy of the book and being ahead of the world on it. So thank you so much. Well, you know, I've loved our conversation. So look forward to more. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my conversation with Michelle Obama, where she opens up on how to stay with your partner when they're changing and the four check-ins you should be doing in your relationship. We also talk about how to deal with relationships when they're under stress.

1:31:21If you're going through something right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this is the episode for you. No wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new technology and we've just taken it in hook, line and sinker. And we have to be mindful for our kids. They'll just be thumbing through this stuff. You know, their their minds never sleeping. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead. Save up to 50 percent and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter. Park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park.

1:31:57I'm Radhi Devlukia and I'm the host of a Really Good Cry podcast and I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Uri. If you're out there trying to date right now, being ghosted on Hinge or want to create a dating profile that gives you a solid chance of matching with someone you actually want to go on a date with, then this episode with Hinge's Director of Relationship Science, Logan Uri, is definitely for you. Relationships do require work. The best relationships are people who really work on them together. Listen to a Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:32:28This is an iHeart Podcast.