Communication Expert Vinh Giang: Why You Keep Getting Interrupted (How to Use Your Voice So People ACTUALLY Listen)

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25:44So visit drinkjuni.com today to elevate your wellness journey and use code ONPURPOSE to receive 15 % off your first order. That's drinkjuni.com and make sure you use the code ONPURPOSE. And now let's get back to the episode There's such a need for ownership And accountability for our lives Because like you said And I for a long time believed That someone was going to come and spot my talent And see it and nurture it And help me build up And I realized no one was coming And that no one could see it Because they were too busy in their own lives It's not that they were bad people Or they were bitter Or they were wrong Or they were not able to spot talent everyone was busy.

26:31People were just busy in their day to day. They don't have time to spot your skill and your talent and nurture it. If someone's listening to this right now, and they're saying, Vin, I love what you just said. I'm an introvert. I agree with you. There are times when I can and can't perform or can't bring it out. How do I hold energy? How do I create energy? If I have a meeting coming up today, if I'm going to be on a Zoom call today, what do I do in order to make sure I'm at my best? Because right now I'm going from meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, Zoom call to Zoom call. I'm just exhausted.

27:01First thing is you have to learn how to protect your energy. For example, yesterday I was doing a couple of different podcasts while I'm here in LA and I didn't leave the hotel room. The podcast wasn't until four. I didn't leave the hotel room at all to the point where my videographer freaked out and just knocked on my door and said, are you okay? Are you still all right? Are you all right? I'm like, yeah, I'm conserving my energy. I'm a fairly high energy person. So I have to conserve my energy. So all morning is, again, I didn't talk to anyone this morning. I had to wait to talk to you. because if you don't conserve your energy and you just give it all the time everywhere, then you won't have any.

27:34So that's number one. Got to conserve your energy, right? And then the second thing is have go-to, I call them menu items. Have some menu items that you can quickly reach for. So one that I love is Wim Hof, the breathing technique, right? The guided bubble breath. Two cycles of that before a meeting. My brain is oxygenated. My body feels good. I feel like I just feel revitalized. Can you break the baton down for us? Just in case people don't know. So if people don't know, YouTube, but it's 30 deep breaths in and out. So 30 of that. And then after that, at the end of the 30th one, you breathe out and then hold your breath.

28:12And you'll be shocked how long you can hold your breath for. You'll be shocked. The first time I did this, I couldn't believe I could hold it for a minute and a half, two minutes. I thought I was going to die. I thought I was dying. And then at the end of you holding your breath for a minute or so, as long as you can, after that, just take a deep breath in. hold for 15 seconds and release. And that breathing technique alone has energized me, even when I am doing Zoom calls at 3am in the morning, because I work with some US clients. It just gets me three cycles of that, two cycles of that. Incredible.

28:47I was not a believer in that at all when I first learned. I was like, yeah, surely that's not going to work. What, breathing? I do that every day. Changed my life. Yeah, I agree. My go-to technique to energize myself. The next one to me is a snack, something healthy. I love blueberries, raspberries with a little bit of cream. Oh man, a light meal. I love it. Right. And then favorite beverage. My go-to is coffee. I don't know. That's, I feel like some people are going to tell me it's going to kill me, but I love it. So have your own go-to. Yeah. Right. Have your own routine. A routine. Yeah. I have a playlist of videos that crack me up.

29:25I don't know. Have you seen videos that made you laugh? Yeah, absolutely. Save them. Save them because they're packed. Put you in a great mood. Put you in a great mood. I'll give you one last one for me. Again, I've just got so many things out of my menu items. No, I love it. I also love orchestral war music. Okay, so like Hans Zimmer-esque. Yes, I love it. Interstellar, yeah. And if you're listening to Interstellar, Hans Zimmer, while you're doing Wim Hof, as you take a sip of coffee, oh man I'm going to try that give that a go I'm going to give that a go that's awesome it's an intoxicating mix I love that yeah my routine's a lot more simple but I love no but you're right everyone needs one I went on my world tour two years ago now we did 40 cities across three to four months around the world got to come to Australia I know a place that I absolutely loved it was my first time there I didn't get to come to Adelaide I hope I do next time I know we're offended by the way yeah oh no gosh please don't be we did Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne and honestly there was something about the Australian people that stuck with me I was telling you this a bit earlier there was this banter back which I loved I would banter with people on stage I'd, you know, little quips and things and they'd come back at it and I loved it and the other thing was everyone was so grateful everyone would just say to me they'd be like thank you for coming all this way and I was like wait a minute you came to see my show I should be thanking you and I was I was so grateful that people turned up in the thousands that came out.

30:52And it was just amazing. Everyone was so grateful. There was such a great energy. But the reason I brought it up is I realized that my tour schedule was extremely different from a keynote because the keynote is I've got to do it once and then it's done. This was every night, if not every other night, if not sometimes in Australia, I did two shows back to back. In the same day? On the same day because we were at the Sydney Opera House for two days where we did two shows in one day, one show the next day. So three shows across two days. and then went to, I think it was Brisbane or Melbourne that was last.

31:23And so my tour schedule was different, but I realized I had to stop eating at 12. My show was at 8 PM. I had to stop eating at 12. I'd have a protein bar around 5, 6 PM to give me that little bit of boost of energy. I'd have a sparkling water because I preferred that just before I went on. And then I would have to eat. I'd get off stage at 10, do a meet and greet for two hours, and then I'd eat at midnight every day. Now that's not my normal schedule at all. Like that's completely against my normal schedule, but I had to find that. And I think that's what's so interesting about this is that I'm not so, I sleep at nine, nine 30 every night.

31:59That's when I'm in bed. So for me to be having to eat dinner at midnight is so abnormal, but I found that there was a different routine. I also didn't go out to any noisy places before or after the show because I had to be on vocal rest. I knew I'd lose my voice if I went to a restaurant or whatever. So for three, four months, I didn't go to a restaurant while I was out in all these cool cities. I was like, oh, did you go to this place? I was like, no, I didn't go to any of those places because I would have lost my voice and then I wouldn't be able to perform. And I think that's the important part of the craft, that there's a dedication and a surrender to this is what matters.

32:36And therefore some of this other stuff is going to have to fall by the wayside. And what you just said made me think the importance of finding what works for you. Yes. I feel like people have this misunderstanding that I should just have this energy naturally. Yes. Back to your original question, right? I should just have it naturally. And if I don't have it naturally, there's something wrong with me. It's like, no, you had to not eat for eight hours to get yourself into the right state. And I think that fasted state helps us think more sharp and helps us be more on point, right? And it takes work to show up with energy, intention, and purpose.

33:11Whereas I think people have this illusion in their minds and say, oh, it should be easy. Yeah. Or we think we're weak. Yeah. Or there's something wrong. He's like, no, no, no, no, no. No, there's a craft to it. Like even preparing for a Zoom call. Some people go, oh, is that a bit much? But that's how you show up three Zoom calls back to back. Structure it with 15 minutes in between. You have to reset. Even for me, it's doing these podcasts, traveling overseas. I'm exhausted. But then again, if I choose to give this energy, I need to conserve it. I need to have ways to rejuvenate it. And I have to go through the process.

33:42And you have to commit to the craft. You have to commit to that discipline. Whereas if you one night did eat at 6 p.m., well, then that show wouldn't be as great. But you were dedicated. And I think that is what people have to really understand is there are ways to do it, but you've got to take yourself through the process. Yeah, absolutely. For someone who's listening to their voice now, they're listening to us. They're like, Vin, I'm going to listen to this. They start listening back to their voice and they cringe at their voice because we all have this strange, and by the way, we all have it.

34:14I have, and I want to say that here. I have that too. No one likes listening to the sound of their own voice. There's something uncomfortable about it. First of all, do you know where that comes from? And then what do we do about that when you're listening back and you just, you know, your whole body, your face, everything. It's not just listening. It's when you look at yourself on video too. And there's a reason for that. The reason we hate the sound of our voice is because when we hear ourselves on a recording, that's not how we sound to ourselves. The way you sound to yourself, you have a deep, rich, Barry White voice, right?

34:46And the reason you have a different sounding voice to yourself is when you're speaking, the vibrations go through your bones and your muscles, and then it hits your ears. The vibrations of the sound is going through a more dense medium, which creates a lower pitch sound. So when you hear yourself via an audio replay, that's going through the airwaves. so your voice sounds thinner and higher pitch. So you immediately go, no, no, no. I don't sound like that. I sound like this. I don't sound like this. And they freak out. So that difference in the medium in which you're receiving the sound causes people immediately to reject because it actually does sound different.

35:25The reason why people are looking at those on some video is because it's flipped the other way. And they go, oh, I don't look like that. Because you look at yourself in the mirror every day. Whereas on camera, it shows the way other people see you. Whereas when you look at yourself in the mirror, it's flipped. So your entire life, you've seen yourself a certain way, right? Unless your face is perfectly symmetrical, right? Then you go, oh no, I don't look like that. So immediately people go, I look weird. I sound weird. So the thing you need to do there is desensitize it, mate. Just listen to yourself over and over.

35:53Like, do you listen to a podcast now and do you still freak out about your voice? Not anymore. Not anymore, right? Because you're desensitized. So what happens is a calibration happens. What you hear in your head and what you hear on an audio replay, The calibration starts to just do this. And then gradually you can't hear the difference anymore. And then when you look at yourself on camera and also in the mirror, the calibration starts to happen. You go, oh, that's me. Oh, that's just me. It's painful. But if you go through that, you get over it. Yeah. It's all that discomfort in the beginning that we all need to go through.

36:22We were talking about this earlier. So I was really fortunate because when I was 11 years old, my parents were so scared that I was so shy and so insecure that they forced me to go to public speaking school. And so my school had an extracurricular activity with the London Academy of Music, Drama and Arts. For seven years, I had about three sessions a week of two to three hours each. It was fairly rigorous and you'd have to take exams. And the exams were pretty rigorous too. So every year you'd go to this exam and you'd turn up and the examiner would be in a room. And before you even meet the examiner, you could take a book.

36:58It could be any book you wanted, but they were going to pick any page and ask you to read it in a emotive, dramatic, and powerful way. And so they could pick any page out of a book. The next part of the test was they would give you a topic 15 minutes before. You'd be in a library. This is when we didn't have, you know, yeah, there probably was the internet, but there wasn't this, they wanted to keep you away from all of that you'd be in a library and you'd have 15 minutes to prep a talk about the dangers of smoking or whatever it was, a topic that they'd picked. And you had to structure a talk out and the talk had to be five minutes long.

37:37And so you had to do that. The third part of it was you had a prepared presentation with visual aids. This is when we still use projector screens. And then you were tested on that, including the visual aids that you used. And I'm sure there were a couple of other things as well. And then you'd get graded. And it was uncomfortable. We'd be sitting in a class and remember, we're all like young teenagers at this point. So everyone's even more judgmental and more, you know, and you get into the class and you're all making these weird faces to try and warm yourselves up. And they're telling you to enunciate and pronounce all of the letters differently.

38:12And you're doing all these silly things. Your friends are laughing at you. And it's exactly what you're saying. The reason I brought it up is that it was years of discomfort. It was just years of looking silly, looking stupid, sounding bad, giving a bad talk, giving a bad presentation, walking into a room. Then all of a sudden that discomfort changed to confidence. And I find that for most of us, especially as you get older, going through that discomfort becomes harder. For example, if me and you, I don't know how old you are, but I tried to pick up a sport a couple of years ago in the pandemic.

38:48it was much harder for me to learn a sport at this age than if I played it in my teens. So when you're meeting people in their 20s, 30s, maybe 40s, 50s, and they're trying to change their instrument, they're trying to change their voice, that discomfort is so much harder than when I started at 11 or whatever age you started at. How do you encourage people to sit with that discomfort, to go through that? Because it is harder. Such a beautiful insight that you shared there. The reason it was easier for you at 11 is because you were new to a lot of these behaviors. Completely. The behaviors haven't been ingrained in you yet.

39:24Whereas when you're 40 now, and I'm 38. I'm 37, so yeah. So once you're 40 and you realize this, you've done 40 years of repeating one behavior, two behaviors, a series of behaviors over and over and over and over again. That's why it becomes harder, right? And all of a sudden it becomes way more difficult because now you have to unlearn something that you've been repeating for that long. So I think there's really difficult there. One other point I wanted to mention what you said there too is that you said you went through years of discomfort. A lot of people have this idea that, again, it should just be a quick process.

40:01And if I'm struggling for a period, then something's not right. It's like, no, no, no, no, struggle, that's good. It means you're in the process of change, right? You're going through the process of change. And you have to be willing to put in that effort, go through the struggle. And I think the thing that people are resistant to is failing. Because I believe, and I want to ask you this question, did you learn more from your successes in those situations, in those public speaking exams, or did you learn more from your failures? Failures. People don't want to fail now. I don't want to make a video, put it out on Instagram where I've made a fool out of myself.

40:34But that's how we learn, right? I don't want to do a speech where I forget what I'm going to say, but that's how you learn. You have it happen. Then you go back and you go, okay, why did I forget? Oh, it wasn't well rehearsed, right? Why did I forget? I didn't know how to deal with my nerves. Now you need to learn how to rehearse. Now you need to learn how to manage your nerves. So all of a sudden, if you don't fail, you don't know where your weakness is and then you don't know what to work on. So you've got to pay the price. I think you've got to pay the price. Back to your original question.

41:02No, that's a great, I am so glad you brought that up. Yeah, it's just so important because I think people just now are resistant to failing. Yet we learn far more from our failures than we do from our successes. For sure. So for the person who's 40, oh my god then how do i now how do what do i do am i doomed no no you're not it's just when jay was 11 he was able to work on three or four different behaviors at the same time because you're so elastic right there's so many things that could change about you when you're at that age but when you're less elastic in your older years you just now have to focus on one thing at a time so i've coached a few ceos of some pretty big companies here in the us and it's so funny because when i map out their, I used to do it, I don't do it anymore.

41:42But when I did it and I mapped out their coaching program and I showed it to them, they got upset because they're like, wait, you're making me work on my volume for four weeks and that's all we're doing? This feels stupid. And in those moments, I just had the courage to go, well, look, then pick somebody else. It's okay. Get a refund. Pick somebody else. Because I kind of said to them, you're 50 and you've been speaking with a very default quiet volume for 50 years. Do you expect to be able to change that in 48 hours? Because I get them to send me a video every day, right? And every time they send me a video, I go, watch what you're doing for the first seven days.

42:23Even though you know we're working on volume, your default volume is like a four out of 10. And that's when they go, oh, far out. I keep defaulting back to it. So the older you are, you've got to realize one thing at a time. One thing at a time. But it drives people crazy. I want to do seven things. I want to do hand gestures. I want to learn how to storytell. I want to use volume. I want to add pitch and melody. I want to do all of it. But that's also what leads to no change. That's why most people never change the way they sound, because they're not willing to sit and be patient and do one thing at a time.

42:54Yeah. A good example is thinking about it like driving. How many bad driving habits have we picked up in the last 20 years because we haven't been tested. We haven't reviewed it. Oh, that's scary. Right? And I recently had to redo my driving test because of moving here and getting a state ID and all that kind of stuff. And I realized just how many bad habits you pick up. Now, I believed myself to be a safe driver and a good driver and a responsible driver. But still, the fact that for 20 years, no one's watched me and checked on me driving, you lose that. And so that's 20 years of driving, which is something we do every day, which is similar to speaking.

43:33You're doing it every day, but no one's doing what you're not recording yourself driving and sending it to someone. You just made me think of something when you said driving as well. I mean, when you think back to the four stages of learning we talked about before, and you talk about unconscious competence, to give people a sense of what's possible once you really go down the path of mastery of communication skills, think of an area in your life where you have achieved unconscious competence. It's driving. Whether we're good or not, that's another thing, right? But most people, I would dare say sometimes too, you're kind of unconscious when you're driving because you're so good at it.

44:08You've done it every single day of your adult life. So you've gotten to a point where you are unconsciously competent, right? And then people always ask me now, they go, oh, Vin, when you communicate now, are you thinking about gesturing? Are you thinking about storytelling? Are you thinking about... I go, no, I don't. Because like with the car, when you think you want to go to the grocery store, do you have any thought now into, oh, I need to open the door. Oh, I need to check my blind spot. Oh, I need to adjust my, no, it's all automatic. So the reason why I try to inspire my students to improve their communication skills, because I say to them, that means in the very next conversation you have with a client, a customer, a family member, you can just think, I want this outcome.

44:45I want to be able to help them in this way. Your skills and abilities will just take you there. And that's why you come across in these podcasts and the professional people who do this, it's so natural. and when people are sitting there going, I want to be that natural, but it requires a dedication to mastery. Yeah, and that's the point that I really want people to get. I remember sitting and watching one of my favorite comedians who became a friend and he was just brilliant. Like he would have the audience laughing and in raptures like in the palm of his hand, right? But everything looked and felt completely off the cuff.

45:21So he'd literally just turn up on stage. It wasn't like he wasn't in the flow. Sometimes you watch a comedian and you can tell there's an arc and you can tell there's a story and you can tell it's planned. This guy would literally come up. He'd be like, hey, has anyone read any books lately? And like someone would name a book. He'd be like, oh, yeah, I read that page. And he'd make a joke out of it. And then someone else and he'd be like, oh, what's your favorite song right now? And it's all a conversation. Brings out a song. Oh, yeah. I can't believe he said that lyric. Makes a joke about the lyric.

45:46And it was unbelievable to watch. And I spoke to him afterwards and I said to him, I said, who did you learn that from? Like, where did that come from? He said, I practiced it so much that it looks spontaneous, but it's completely trained. And I think that's what everyone wants. Everyone wants for it to look spontaneous. But that took years of discomfort, courage, failure, training, mastery. When I'm telling a story or hosting a podcast, I'm not trying to sound like anything because your voice has for so many years become that way. and I'm at a point in my career for sure I was asked to give I just gave three keynotes in the Middle East in January and in Dubai and I said to myself I'm gonna walk into these and just channel like I just want to go in there and just be I'm not gonna I'm gonna have some notes I know what I need to talk about I know the title of the tour yeah but I'm just gonna be and I had so much fun, Vin.

46:43I had so much fun and it seemed like the feedback was great for the audience, whatever, but it was just so much fun for me because I was like, I just want to feed off the energy in the room. And they were all, and my friend, one of my best friends, he came with me and he was like, Jay, every talk was different. He goes, at the One Billion Summit, you were hilarious. It was like watching a comedian. And then he goes, at Mindvalley, it was really deep and philosophical. And then at the other place, the corporate event, it was very professional. He was like, Like there were three talks in three days and they were all completely different.

47:14I was like, because I was just feeling the energy of the room. And I love that. Walk me through how many hours, how much time, how many years have you seen people take to get to a point where they feel that sense. That sense of mastery. Of unconscious competence. Not of mastery because that can take many years, but of a sense of comfortability where it's flowing and they don't feel phony and contrived anymore. What have you seen? It depends on your level of desire. What have you seen? I've seen unbelievable change within six months. And this is someone who has become problem aware that this thing has been destroying my relationships, destroying my career growth.

47:55And when that pain becomes that great and you become problem aware, I can't believe how quickly some of my students have been able to change. And then I've seen it take as long as three or four years. That's still great though. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And where I'll get an email three to four years later and they go, I can't believe it's taken me this long to email you. I almost feel a little bit ashamed. I'm like, no, because it took me 10. So that's amazing. That's incredible. Right? Because it ranges so much depending on the intensity of the pain they feel and, and the realizations they have. I have to bring it back to what you said before, because what you said before about you going to three events and just going with the flow, I know the people listening to this right now, while you were saying that they were clenching their butt cheeks because they were like, oh, that's so freaky.

48:42And I wanted to speak to that because what you just described to me is one of the ultimate benefits of mastery in this arena, and it's freedom. You were free in each one of those speeches. You were free to go where the audience wanted to go. That's one of the things I rarely ever get to even talk about because I I don't get to speak to others usually who are so proficient at this skill set. That's ultimate freedom, Jay. When you feel something, you think something, and you're immediately in the moment able to articulate it with clarity and make people laugh at the same time. That is so powerful, man.

49:22I'm getting shivers just as you're saying it. It's like goosebumps. And to know you're going into that, being able to do that. Like again, it's achievable for you listening to this too. What I love about it is that there was so much discovery for me on that stage. and that's what I do it for. I don't do it to show off or be like, oh, look, I don't need to prepare or be lazy or not respect my client. I do it for discovery. And what I mean by that is when I don't plan to that a hundred percent, I now have the opportunity to find and discover in the moment. So there were so many things that I said in those three keynotes that I've never said in my life.

50:02And that's where I get joy. Yeah, you create. And I said that first because I wanted to take it back and say, my first experience of public speaking, I want to ask you about yours. I was around seven years old and my mom always wanted me to be on stage and do things like that. And I didn't. And so it was a religious assembly and I was dressed as people from my culture and I was asked to go and sing and speak on this prayer in front of my class. Now I grew up in London. I grew up in an area where there weren't loads of Indian people like me. I'm now on stage dressed in traditional garb, but it was basically me wrapped in a sari, if you've ever seen that.

50:46And my mom had even put some makeup on me probably to try and make me look more the part and it didn't help. And then I'm on stage in front of all my friends. I'm seven, eight years old, something like that. And I stand up there with this prayer that I'm not that well versed in or practiced. And I start singing it. I have a terrible singing voice and that's not humble. There's a difference between a speaking voice and a singing voice. I can't sing to save my life. And I start singing and the whole audience starts laughing immediately. Like just, like literally all my friends are rolling on the floor laughing.

51:19And now I'm starting to cry because I felt really embarrassed. And I looked down because I forgot the words. And now I can't see the words because my tears have blurred the words in my paper. So I've lost the notes. So I also don't know the words. And then to make it even worse than that, my teacher walks on stage. She puts her arm around me and walks me off, which is the most embarrassing thing in the world. And so I go from that at eight years old. And this is why I love what you're doing for the world because you're showing and proving you can build this skill. It is a muscle. And that was my first experience of public speaking.

51:57A few years after that, after all the training as well, I was probably speaking in rooms of zero to five people and pouring my heart out into just five people. And even now when I look back, I loved it because I just got to be so proficient and practiced. And so when someone's saying, oh, do I have to do this for four weeks? or wait, only five people are showing up or whatever those things are. Those are actually really, really beautiful moments. I wanted to ask you, what was your first time public speaking? What was the first ever experience on stage? Have you recovered from that experience? I have now, I have now, but even though I started getting trained when I was 11, I probably didn't get half decent until I was like 17 or 18.

52:41That's why when you said you can get people then three to four years, I'm like, that's pretty good because if I started at 11, I probably got half decent at, 16 to 18. I wasn't good when I was like 12, 13, 14. All those years were just, you know. It's such a common story among many of the students that I coach. There usually is some kind of event when they were younger that has led them to believe that I'm terrible at this thing because there wasn't the right support. You were thrown into that. You didn't even practice. You didn't even learn the words, right? So again, you were set up to almost fail.

53:14And And a lot of the oral presentations that we do when we're young, that's what they're called, right? Oh, you're going to do a presentation. We're set up to fail. When you're 11 and you have to do this presentation in front of your class, do they teach you how to use your hands? Do they teach you where to put your notes? Do they teach you how to summarize notes and not write the whole damn thing on cue cards? No, they're setting you up to fail. So this is such a common story because our school system, the entire year has one day where we have to go on in front of the class. And guess what? Guess what happens that day?

53:44I'm sick, mom. I can't go to school. I'm sick. Then you stay, then you miss the one day you have training. And then if you do the training, you're all set up to fail. You're all set up to fail. So every person has a version of this. My version of this is a little more dramatic because I was older. I was in university and we had to do a presentation for accounting. And I was so nervous. I remember going to the toilet 10, 12 times. So nervous. And then I got up on stage and I had a sniffle. So I kept, I kept touching my nose. I had to sniffle and then I got a blood nose. And then I didn't realize I had a blood nose because I thought it was, I thought it was, I was just, I thought it was just booger.

54:22So I didn't know. So I swiped it. Blood comes across my face. I don't know I have blood on my face. While you're speaking. While I'm speaking. I didn't know it was blood, right? And then I, obviously a blood vessel went. I was so nervous. Everything was going crazy. And then I didn't realize it was blood. And I was still talking. And then people started laughing. And then I tasted blood. and the moment I tasted blood, I looked at my hands, there was blood everywhere. I start freaking out. I didn't know what to do. The teachers didn't even know what to do either. Do you know what I had to do? I finished the talk.

54:49You finished the talk? Well, it was only a five-minute presentation but I finished it because I didn't know what to do and I panicked and it was just the worst presentation I'd ever given. From that point, I just thought, yep, you know what? I'm going to avoid this at all costs. I'm never going to do it ever again. This is the worst experience of my life. And then when I walked off, I just, yeah. I'm glad there were no videos back then and no photos. Oh, there's no videos. That's so traumatic. Wow, that is traumatic, man. To actually bleed, to be that nervous, to be that stressed. Yeah, that's how stressed I was.

55:21Yeah, yeah, yeah. To experience that. I love that that's where you started. And now if someone watched, like when I watch your videos, I'm like, this guy's a genius. Let's take a short break to hear from our sponsors. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50 % and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter, park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we're taking a closer look at a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of men each year, prostate cancer.

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57:37One thing that I've definitely seen as I've traveled and we both have international audiences is this fear that people have around their accents. And that can often make people quite unconfident. And it's really interesting because obviously when I moved to the States, people really enjoy listening to a British accent in the States. but where I was growing up in London, to me, the smartest people sounded American accents, professors, Harvard, Princeton, Stanford. When you heard these professors do TED Talks or whatever it was, it was always an American accent. And it's almost like in England, we grew up on American rap music.

58:13You grow up to such a culture that our feelings are skewed towards certain accents. And so if you're from a country where you feel, or a state or anywhere, even in the United States, you may feel like your accent isn't well received. How does someone deal with that kind of pressure? I just believe accents are really a problem. It's really the articulation and the pronunciation that lets people down. Because I just feel that accents are beautiful. I've got students from all over the world, Jay. I agree. I love listening to the accent because it tells a story. It tells me who you are. Where it lets you down is like when I first came to the US, I didn't realize I had so much Australian slang.

58:56And Australians use, like, we shorten all of our words. It's like, yeah, man, I want to, yeah, maybe I won't, you know, yeah, all right. Like, it's just, I didn't realize I was doing so much of that. And people go, oh, Australian accent is awesome. Yeah, if I'll talk for a sec, you won't even understand what I'm saying if I don't articulate and pronounce my words correctly. So I really believe that, and I have this happen all the time in my in-person classes where someone will come and ask that very question and they'll have a Polish accent or maybe they'll have an Indian accent. And then the moment I just get them to over articulate and practice, all of a sudden it completely changes how they sound.

59:33And here's where it happens, Jay. It's because for me, for example, right? I learned the Vietnamese language. So I learned a set of Vietnamese mouth movements. My big mistake was when I learned English, I used the same set of mouth movements in the Vietnamese language to go speak the English language. Fascinating. Right? So then all of a sudden now when I speak English, My accent wasn't the problem. The problem was I wasn't articulating correctly. So people didn't understand me. I used to not pronounce my T's. British people are good with this, but Australians and even Asians, I didn't do it. So I'd say things like, I can't.

1:00:05I wouldn't pronounce, I can't. I wouldn't pronounce that. And then my T's, I would say free. Oh, can I have free of those? Instead of three of those. And then what people were associating with low levels of intelligence, was not so much my accent, but it was just because I didn't articulate my words well. And this can happen in any culture. This can happen with any accent. I've heard people with Chinese accents, Indian accents, Polish accents, Russian accents, but when they articulate their words beautifully, oh man, it's like you get to listen to a different genre of music. Otherwise, imagine everyone sounded like us.

1:00:47Yeah, for sure. There's no flavor. There's no - Personality. Personality. Again, I do not believe accents are a problem. I believe the problem lies in your ability to articulate and your pronunciation. And here's a quick activity that you can do to help with this. Yeah, go for it. One of the greatest things I learned that my speech pathologist made me do was, first of all, grab a book. And every single day you grab a book for five minutes, four times a day, if you want to take it real seriously, every time for five minutes, read the book and overdo your lip movements, overdo the tongue movements.

1:01:17And then if you want to take it to the next level, put a pen in your mouth. Because if you put a pen in your mouth, you're forced to over articulate and do it out loud. And by doing this, you'll start to learn and record yourself while you're doing it too. You'll start to learn, oh, wow, I struggle with this sound, this consonant, this vowel. And as you start to bring a little bit of awareness to it, you go, oh, right, I need to change the way I'm shaping my lips. I need to change the way. And just going through that process alone, I remember doing that for three months. And I had to do that when I came here to the US because I slurred my words a lot.

1:01:48And in Australia, you fully understand me if I might. Right? Yeah, there's no dramas with that, eh? But over here, all of a sudden, I was speaking in Texas and I still remember speaking in Texas for the first time. It was so sweet. They're like, I love the guy. I ain't got no idea what he's saying. Right? And it was like this weird thing where, and then I literally had to go see a speech pathologist even later in my life because in Australia, it wasn't a problem. And I didn't realize it too. But when I slurred my words that much, it made people think I wasn't smart. Right, right. And this is why people in the world think the British are so smart.

1:02:20Is it just the accent or is it because they articulate extremely well? Right, right. So you can sound smart in any culture, in any, with any accent. Should we get a couple of pens? Yeah, we should do it. Can you pass us a couple of pens? Oh, okay. Just so that people realize. Yeah, I can see and see what it is. Yeah, and that we also need to do these. Like, I'm probably going to contact you straight after this and go, Vin, I'm not kidding you. I mean this. Thank you so much. What type of pen? Does it matter? Oh, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It could be a Sharpie. Yeah, yeah. The thicker the pen, the more challenging it is.

1:02:53That one I think I've already chewed off. Let's not give you one, but I've already. Thank you. There we go. This one does not have bite marks. No, no, no. Exactly. Look, you can see what I've done with this one. We'll do this for a segment. Yeah. But what I was saying was, as soon as we finish this podcast, I'm probably going to message you and say, Vin, can you please critique all of my, I'm going to send you a speech and ask you to help me get better? Because I think the mistake is also that you get there and then you don't need these techniques or that you don't need to improve and that you don't need to work on it.

1:03:25Don't need to practice anymore. I think about it all the time. So anyway, let's, yeah. Yeah. Can you see how difficult this is? Very difficult. Yeah, all of a sudden, right? Yeah. And I want people to think about this. Who can you understand better right now? I'm not sure. You've got to give me more than that, Jay. Okay, so Rin, how are you today? Feeling a little bit jet-lagged. Okay. Because I came all the way from Australia. Yeah, I just got back from Mexico yesterday. Oh, that's great. And I went to a friend's wedding and we had a really good time. Oh, that's beautiful. I'm really happy for him.

1:04:03Oh, so happy for you. it's in doing these things that you start all of a sudden now that i now when i speak i feel like oh i'm so sharp totally i can feel it too yeah even just from a few moments because you're forced to stretch your mouth so much bigger to make the shapes to be able to create the sounds whereas the biggest problem and again this happens in the english language when you think about the european languages the asian languages we actually don't have to drop our jaw a lot to speak those languages because when I speak Vietnamese, I can do a lot of Vietnamese with my mouth closed. I barely have to move my jaw.

1:04:41English is one of the very few languages where when you think about consciously how you're speaking, you have to drop your jaw so much to speak the English language well. Whereas again, the Asian cultures, European languages, you don't have to. Again, each language has a different set of mouth movements. So by doing that simply alone, you felt it straight away. It's because you have to move your jaw so much. Totally. I can actually feel like we've worked out. Yeah. Like that's what it feels like. And that we did it for 30 seconds. Absolutely. And you can keep that pen. Oh, thank you. I didn't think you wanted it back.

1:05:14I genuinely feel the difference from such a short period of time. And I could tell if I did it for longer, it would make an even bigger difference. Well, imagine you did that for five minutes. Yeah. And you started dedicating yourself to that. Yes. My goodness, within a week. Yes. You'll notice your mouth moving differently. And you'll notice yourself sounding more clear. accents are not a problem you gotta you gotta stop thinking that people always go oh i hate my accent that tells a story it's your culture it's your history it's what makes you unique and i always love to think of it as it's different genres of music yes and that's what we're seeing in music in the world right now anyway you're seeing languages pour in yeah through different artists and people and it's such a need for that i wanted to ask you something because this was a big evolution point for me.

1:05:58So from 11 to 18, I went to public speaking school. I got the tools is how I like to see it. But it was only when I met the monks and I started to learn about Eastern wisdom and philosophy that I felt I had something to talk about. And I wanted to ask you how much you weight the balance between what you have to say and how you say it. both equally important. I see some books where I read where they go, no, what you say is more important. And then some books say, no, how you say is more important. And I think they kind of have to do that sometimes because they are an expert in one particular arena.

1:06:36But again, I believe the answer is not which one, it's both, both just this critical. Same with me. I think until I found the purpose and the fulfillment from teaching public speaking, I didn't really have much to talk about. I didn't. And until I found that, then all of a sudden I started creating content. Then the content started to take off. And I think it's because I love how you've positioned what you do here. It's on purpose. When I found that purpose and I had the tools and I was able to use my instrument, then all of a sudden the world resonated with that. Yes. Whereas before I did make YouTube videos back in 2008, 2009, just for fun, but they didn't really go anywhere because even though I had decent access to my instrument, It just didn't go anywhere because I wasn't aligned.

1:07:20You could hear it. It wasn't on purpose. Yeah, no, I'm glad I brought that up because I think a lot of people are struggling with either or. Like someone may come to you, they may learn all the tools, but then they're going to have to find what they use it for. And like you said, there may be someone else who actually has lots of knowledge, but then they don't have the tools to share the wisdom or the insight. And that's generally the student that somehow discovers me. Right. It's the one that is, I have something to share with the world. Right. But some reason, every time I share it, people misunderstand me.

1:07:51Every time I share it, it doesn't get the impact that I desire. And it's the truth because you could have the greatest piece of music written by Beethoven, but if you play it poorly, is it the greatest music? And again, it's so interesting because I understand my students so intimately now where I know what they'll say. They say things in their life like they go, I'm just going to let my work speak for itself. Why not speak for your work too? Right. Well, why can't we do both? Why are we so linear? Why can't we do both? So good. Right. And when they realize that, they go, oh, okay, right. It opens their mind to the whole idea of, I kind of have to take responsibility to shine my light.

1:08:24I can't wait for someone. Again, and I remember we have a mutual friend, Mel Robbins, right? Yes. Mel helped me with my speaking career. At the start of my speaking career, Mel used to flick me the gigs. I couldn't afford her. I didn't know that. I became the cheap Mel Robbins for a period. So I was the cheap Mel Robbins. I didn't know that. She was amazing and so gracious. Because she couldn't do those gigs, but maybe she was busy as well. And she flicked them to me. That's how she started my career here in the US. That's awesome. I didn't know that. And she was one of the people that I saw from her content as well early on, where she said, no one's coming to help you.

1:08:55No one's coming to save you. That's when it really hit home for me too. I went, okay, I'm going to have to go do this myself. And you take ownership for that. And yeah, because when you take ownership, you step into your power. When you blame others, you kind of lose all of it. Yeah. What about someone who comes to you and says, I talk too fast. How do you teach people to slow down? because I think that we're all scared of pauses, right? Everyone's always trying to fill the gaps. Even if you're in a conversation with someone, we don't like pauses. I've for years had to practice the ability to say it's okay if I need to look away, if I need to think, if I need to reflect, if I actually just need to take something in, whether I'm on a podcast on stage or in a private meeting.

1:09:39How do we get comfortable with slowing down and pausing rather than trying to fill all the space? because that's such a natural thing to do. The first thing I would say, if you speak really fast, well done for being aware that you do, most people are not aware of it, is a lot of it is to do with your mindset and the state of mind that you're in. When do you think people speak really fast? When they're feeling what? When they're nervous, scared, anxious. Et cetera, right? So you kind of have to address it at the core there. So what you need to do is you have to identify when are you speaking fast?

1:10:14In which situations are you speaking fast? Oh, it's when I'm in a job interview. Oh, it's when I'm going in for my quarterly review. Well, great. Now you know in these isolated situations, the triggers are high-pressure situations. Okay, cool. That means before you go into those situations, you need to still your mind and your body. Again, it comes back to breathing, right? I couldn't believe it, but there were workshops that I was invited to and I did some of them. I couldn't believe we could spend three to four days on breathing. And then I found out there was a seven-day workshop on breathing.

1:10:42I went, seven days? There's so much profound wisdom in the breath. And I did not understand it until I started learning more about it. So again, breathing. Before you go in, go with the Wim Hof breathing. And that will slow down your mind and slow down your body. And then all of a sudden, it slows down your speech. The next thing is adrenaline also causes you to speed and speak really quickly. So before you go into a presentation or something that's making you nervous, get rid of the adrenaline. Some brisk walking, do a couple of push-ups, do some star jumps. I know you call them jumping jacks.

1:11:19Yeah, mate. It's not called a jumping jack. It's a star jump, mate. We call it star jumps in England. Oh, you do? Yeah. The Americans have it wrong. Who the hell is Jack? So all of a sudden, do 20 star jumps, right? And when you do that, you get rid of all the adrenaline. The adrenaline is what makes you shake and also what makes you speak really quickly. because when you start to shake, it's sending signals to your brain that you're nervous. Now you start to think you're nervous. And then when you think you're nervous, now you're speaking really quickly, right? So again, these things help slow you down.

1:11:46Now, those are things you can do before you go in. One last thing you can do before you go in actually is what makes us really nervous is being self-conscious. But you can only be self-conscious if you're thinking about yourself. So then stop thinking about yourself and realize it was not about you. If you're going on stage, it's not about you. It's about every single person you're going to serve. And I'll be honest with you too, coming here, I felt a bit nervous, right? But then I thought to myself, well, it's not about me. It's about me trying to add as much value as I can to Jay's audience.

1:12:14And it's about Jay. I want to connect with Jay. And the moment I made it about you and I made it about the audience we're about to serve, I had no cognitive capacity left to be nervous because I'm not thinking about myself. So to me, these three small tools, you've got the breathing, get rid of the adrenaline and mindset shift. It helps calm you down. And now when you go in, if you find yourself racing in it, Then pause and take a deep breath. And that's how you can remedy it. Because if you go in, you're like, oh, I'm here. I'm really excited. You take a deep breath and then continue speaking.

1:12:50And right after the deep breath, it's going to slow your speech right down. Even when I did it there, I all of a sudden feel more relaxed now. Yeah. The reason people aren't comfortable with the pause is because they don't know what the pause is for. right and when you think the pause is useless that's why you develop the behavior of filling the pause always talking um uh non filler words as well and so like do you know what i mean we do that because we don't understand the power of the pause whereas the pause allows people to process what you're saying think about it now listeners as you're listening to that the moment i paused you just did it again you had a moment to process the things that i was saying if i just talk really quickly and i don't pause at all when i'm talking all of a sudden now everything that I say has no clear points because you don't have any time to process anything that I'm saying.

1:13:38All of a sudden, everything after all becomes mumbo jumbo. Right? It just becomes nothing. 100%. Whereas pausing gives people time to process. Pausing gives you time to breathe so that you can relax so that you don't speak too quickly. There are so many benefits to it. I mean, think of music again. I love using music analogies because the most important note in an orchestra happens after a crescendo, which is what? Silence. They'll build the peak and then all of a sudden the musicians will play and play and it'll get to this peak moment and then just nothing. And the audience is in awe of what they just experienced.

1:14:18You speak about it so powerfully and it's so convincing. I'm like, this has to hit because I applied that even And that come back to Zoom calls, meetings, everything. I think it's so important to not feel that the person who talks the fastest is the one who will get their point in. And I think that's sometimes the thing of like, hey guys, I just really want to share this with you. Because if we just did this, this would solve everything. Like this is the thing. And it's almost like you've actually lost all importance because of that pace. Also because there's no clarity. Yes. If people don't process anything that you say, there's no clarity.

1:14:58You have to think about communication. It's not what I just send. It's how it's being received. Right? It's not, oh, I've sent it. It's done. It's out there. What do you think? I don't even remember what you said. Yeah. And I think that's a big mistake. And often people do that, again, because they don't understand that the way you deliver has an impact on how others receive. Yeah. I really appreciate your switch to the audience consciousness versus the us consciousness, because it seems really small. It seems really obvious. It seems kind of, of course, that makes sense. But it really is everything.

1:15:37Because all of a sudden, if you're thinking about being impressive, that's a really hard place to live from, because now you're judging every word that comes out of your mouth and judging whether it's impressive, whether it's powerful, whether it's profound, whether it's whatever it is. And now you actually have no thinking space to actually be profound, impressive and all those things you wanted to be. It's just not possible. Whereas if you were thinking, hey, what's that person in the audience struggling with? What are they really struggling with? What's their challenge? What's the thing that, and that's why, that's how we started this conversation.

1:16:14I was like, what's everyone worried about when they come to you? Because to me, that's the most important thing. And if I know that what they're worried about is their accent, their voice, their whatever it may be, now all of a sudden I can address that and I can speak to that. And actually I can make them aware that I'm aware of that. And that's the same in a meeting. I think sometimes if someone said to me in a meeting, Jay, I know that you really want the podcast to be a special place for people to really learn, grow, and heal. I know that it's a big priority in your life. And I know that it's something that you put your heart into for six years.

1:16:57This is how to make it better. All of a sudden, I'm like, I'm all ears. Because I feel like you actually get where I'm at and where I'm coming from. Whereas if someone said, hey, you know what? I've just got this really great idea I want to share with you. I'm like, well, I don't know if it's a great idea or not because I don't even know if we're on the same page. And so walk me through some of the ways people can establish by what they're saying and how they, one, you did this beautiful video. Well, you're on stage, but I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And I realized I do it unconsciously. And when I saw you explain it, I was like, there you go.

1:17:30That's why you're such a great coach and such a great teacher. It was that idea of meeting people where they're at. And you were saying that when people come to you and they're like, oh, Vin, you're amazing on stage and you were great. And they speak really quietly. And you said, if you come back to that and go, yeah, what did you like about it? Or even worse, like, oh, thank you so much. Because sometimes you bring that stage persona straight down. Yeah. Yeah. And how did I learn that? Because that's what I started with. Yeah. And you see them just go, and then they freak out. But that's what I wanted to ask you.

1:18:01So how do we do that in a meeting? How do we do that in our daily life? Yeah. Where sometimes what we're saying, but also how we're saying it, we're not even giving it the importance it deserves. How do we establish more authority and influence when we are sharing an idea, when we are proposing a method? You've heard a lot of body language experts say you match and mirror people to build rapport, to make it about them, to build a connection. You match and mirror their body language. But what a lot of people don't realize is you can also match and mirror their vocal foundations. So when you think about the voice and you divide it into five different categories and you think it from the perspective of rate of speech, volume, pitch and melody, tonality, and the pause.

1:18:39Now, all of a sudden, you have these five factors that you can start to think about when you're talking to people. So if someone comes up to you and they're naturally speaking a little bit quickly because they're nervous, right? Like that. And they're speaking a little bit lower volume and the melody is not as great of a range. And you notice these things. Then you match and you mirror where they are with their voice too. And then people immediately feel like, oh, you're approachable. Yes. And it's not that we stay there because some people go, oh, but that's inauthentic. That's not right. No, no.

1:19:05That's you being a great and dynamic communicator. That's you going, hey, I'm going to meet you where you are to make you feel comfortable, to build connection, to make it about you. Meet them where they are and then slowly you take them back out. So if you're meeting them where they are, you go, oh, hey, thank you for coming up and saying hello. But hey, can I just ask you quickly too, what did you really take away? What was the key thing you took away? Oh, you took that away. Oh, that's awesome. Hey, I'm so happy that you came up and had a chat with me. All of a sudden now, once you're in rapport, you can take them to where you want to go.

1:19:32And that's something you can take onto a Zoom call. You meet them where they are, right? If someone's really excited about an idea they want to bring to you, you can meet them there with that excitement to show them respect, right? As opposed to a lot of the times previously in my life, someone will come to me really excited and I have one gear, Jay, and I'm just one gear. I'm like, oh, that sounds really cool. Yeah, that's great. Awesome, man. And I didn't realize that then all of a sudden I made them feel less important. Whereas now all of a sudden I've learned that, ah, when someone comes to me with a peak emotion, even if it's frustration, I will mirror that for them to show them that, hey, I feel you.

1:20:09It's like, oh man, that sucks. Right? So it's not just in the words that I use. I deliver it in a way so they can hear that I'm with you and I'm on the same page. It's one of the fastest ways to build rapport with people. Yeah, I think that's so important because you could start up a Zoom call and someone turns up and they're in a really sad, low mood. And in your head, you're thinking, come on, like, come on, bring more energy, right? And then you get frustrated. Yeah. And now you feel you're dragging them up a hill. Whereas if you were like, hey, I just want to check in with you. You're right.

1:20:38Yeah. How's it going? You lower your volume too. Yeah. You meet them where they are. You're like, hey, you know, I noticed on the other call you weren't, are you okay? And all of a sudden people are way more likely to open up if you used your instrument in that way, as opposed to, oh man, what's going on? Yeah. What's going on, man? Come on. Look at the weather outside. It's amazing today. What's going on? They're definitely not opening up to that person. But I didn't have that sensitivity growing up. No sensitivity. I didn't know why so many of my relationships when I was young would fail. Like I remember one of my partners when I was really young where I would ask her, I'd say to her on a Friday night, I'm like, hey, I know we've got dinner plans tonight, but the guys are doing a LAN party and we're going to go play CSGO.

1:21:16Can I go? And she'll go, yeah, fine, just go then. And I just went, you are the most amazing girlfriend. I thought you would have said no. And then I went, next day she broke up with me. And I'm like, why? and I'd listen to Backstreet Boys and I'd be like, why did she break up? But she said yes and that's when I went through that era. I was like, women are so confusing. It doesn't make sense. She said I could go and it was because I wasn't listening to the emotion in the voice. I didn't even have that gear, man. I just thought what people said, oh, that's it. I take you for what you said. So it's fine.

1:21:48So it's fine. And we justify it. Yeah. We think, no, but you did say that. But you did, yes. Yeah, I know I did, but that's not the point and then, yeah. But again, all of a sudden having the sensitivity now, I've got so many different gears now, Jay. And that's the analogy I love to use too, is that because sometimes a lot of people feel that, oh, there's only one version of me. And Jay, this is the only version of me. And I'm this version of me in every situation. That's like having a car with one gear. We are so much more dynamic than as a human being. And I get my students to think about this all the time.

1:22:16Think about when you're angry, you use your voice differently. You use your body language differently. When you've done something wrong, and when I've done something, like I've maybe stayed out with the guys too late one night, I come home, I talk different to my wife. I'm like, I know. Yep, I'm sorry. And I'm very sheepish. You're different when you've done something wrong. We use our instrument differently in every single one of those situations. But when we don't consciously think about it, sometimes we can default to just one gear. I shopped to the interview the exact same way. I shopped and we shop in just one rigid gear.

1:22:47And we go, why am I not standing out? Why don't I get more attention? Why don't I get that promotion that I deserve? You've got to learn to be more dynamic. I'm really glad you made that point because I was saying that to you earlier, when I'm on the podcast, I'm a certain way because it's a conversation. But when I'm on stage, I get the license to be funny and banter with people and bring people in the audience into that conversation because I can. Yeah, you're a bigger version of you. Totally. I always say that when I'm on stage, I'm the 360 version of myself because I get to be all things to everyone that I want to be.

1:23:21Whereas here, I'm having a one-to-one conversation. This is kind of what I'm like when I'm having a one-to-one conversation with a friend, a family member, whatever it may be, because that's my natural way of being. And then if I'm making a video where there's no people, I find it, that's like the most minimal version of me. Yeah, because it's, to me, it's all about energy exchange. So if I'm in a room full of 10, 20, 30 people, maybe 10 ,000 people, there's so much energy to play with. It can be fun. It can be this. It can be that. When I'm with you, we're matching each other's energy. And then if I'm on my own and there's just a camera, then I can think about who's going to watch it.

1:23:57But really, I'm only letting 1 % of me be me. For me, for me, I'm saying. I'm not saying that's the way for everyone. Yeah, no, but it brings up a really important insight that I learned along the way. And it's that be as big as the room. Yes. And you notice how sometimes people do this incorrectly. And I used to be one of those people. Tell me how you do that incorrectly. Well, because when I first learned about all this, I went, oh, wow, this is amazing. I'm going to bring this. and I'll bring this to this. And then people are like, ah, it's a little bit of a wanker. That's a bit much, don't you think?

1:24:28And I used to do that because I had no sensitivity. I just thought, oh, no, this is really good. I should be like this all the time. And then I realized, oh, wow, no, no, no. Just that simple rule of be as big as the room. Again, the version of you, I'm assuming, if you're in front of 10 ,000 people, imagine we're in front of 10 ,000 people and we're like, oh, hey, everyone. It's great to be here. And I'm excited to, it won't work. It won't work, right? Unless you're Eckhart Tolle, then it's totally fine. That's on brand, right? Whereas all of a sudden, you need to bring a much bigger version of you.

1:24:57But you have to develop that sensitivity. Whereas I see sometimes when my students who are new to communication skills, they miss the mark. And usually they're too small. Yes. More often than not, they have this fear, I'm going to be too much. No, no, no. The danger is not you're too much. The danger is that you've been living way too small. For me, it's always about pushing them up. But the fear they have is, oh, but it's too much. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. It's too little. You're playing too small. right? So again, that sensitivity is important to develop. When you're with 30 people, it's a different version of you and it's okay because you have to be a bigger version of you to be effective in that medium.

1:25:30Otherwise it will seem like you don't care. Otherwise sometimes it can come across like you don't care. It's such an art. And what we're talking about is obviously the spectrum of, you know, the kind of like the expertise, the mastery all the way through to the challenge. And it does blow my mind that public speaking comes out as the number one fear in the world. And 75 % of the world's population is scared of public speaking. And it's something we have to do every single day. And people think, but I'm not on stage. Yeah. But anytime you open your mouth in public, that's public speaking. Right.

1:26:07It is public speaking. You're publicly speaking every single day. And that also shows an opportunity, Jay. If 75 % of people fear it, that means only one in four people kind of do it. So if you can get good at this skill, you now have a competitive edge. And one of the greatest things that I've noticed is that why do creators become such great communicators? They do. I mean, watch creators. Why do they become such great communicators? It's because they film themselves every single day and they watch it back and they notice behaviors that serve them and they notice behaviors that don't serve them.

1:26:46And then they remove the behaviors that don't serve them. Because one of these things that I ask a lot of creators, I always ask them, I'm like, so what formal communication training did you do? And they're like, what? What are you talking about? I'm like, I had to learn so many years to learn. And from that simple process, that's why I want to bring it back again for the listeners, right? That simple process. If you just committed to the process of recording yourself once a week, you will now have one of the competitive edges that all creators have. They're impeccable communicators. And why do you keep going back to the creators that you love every single week?

1:27:17You keep watching every video. It's because they're able to form a connection with you. What skill are they using to form that connection with you? The ability to communicate and articulate ideas with clarity. So all of a sudden now, you kind of see that hidden secret there. Where it's about, they just keep putting in the reps. I never even put the two and two together. It's such a great point that they're actually practicing that exact method. But first, here's a quick word from the brands that support the show. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50 % and skip the hassle of circling the block.

1:27:54Park smarter, park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we're taking a closer look at a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of men each year, prostate cancer. I first found out about my cancer at the age of 45. Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence. In this episode, we'll explore the science behind detection, along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health. Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app, search Health Discovered, and start listening.

1:28:36Have you ever brought your magic to Walt Disney World like, hey, we came to play? Did you tip your tiara to a Creole princess or get goofy officially? Step up like a boss and save the day? Or see what life's like under the tree of life? Did you? If you could. Would you? When we come through, it's true magic. Because we came to play. Bring the magic at Walt Disney World Resort. All right. Thank you to our sponsors. Now let's dive back in. when I left the monastery and I got a job at Accenture, we had someone come in, do public speaking training while we were at the company. I wish it was you. It wasn't.

1:29:20I would have been terrible at it at the time. No, no, no. But they had us film ourselves. And it was really interesting to me. I believed at that point that I was, I wouldn't say I was a seasoned speaker, but I was a very experienced speaker because even as a monk, I gave three hour lectures every day. And so there was a lot of speaking involved in teaching from scripture and wisdom and the literatures that we had. But it was really interesting. As a monk, I would sit and speak. Like you'd sit on a low, it's called a Vyasa San in the Indian language. I don't know what it would be described as.

1:29:56I guess it's a very low bench. Like you may have seen it in movies or whatever it may be. It's just very, very low and it's a small seat. And so you're sitting cross-legged, lotus position and your hands are usually in there. And you may use some hand gestures, but generally they're rested. and it's a smaller group. I would stand and talk if I was giving a talk to university students, which I did while I was a monk as well. And maybe there'd be a circle of people. But then we videoed ourselves and it was really interesting. I found myself in that video just doing this the whole time. And then I watched that video back and I found that that's all I did with my hands at that time.

1:30:28And it was so powerful to be able to see how you, and it looked so cringe, right? It just, but it was like, every time I made a point, I'd do this and then I'd come back to here. And that's a very like, you know, as a monk, Like our palms are naturally rested, meditation, whatever. And it was so interesting how I'd taken that habit into my work life. Oh, right. Right? And I was giving a corporate talk at the time. But what I'm saying is I'm reiterating the point of needing to film yourself speaking. I stand by it fully and I think you're spot on making people do it. It's so cool to geek out on this because you've had so much training in this arena.

1:31:01Right now, even as you listen to this, to the listener, you already know what great communication looks like. because you've been to a conference and a speaker walks out on stage. Within 10 seconds, you now make a decision whether you're listening or you're not. 100%. And you'd make a big decision whether you're going to go to your now social media feed or not. Right? So there are certain cues that you recognize as being cues that are engaging. Oh, the way they're using their voice, I'm in. The way they're using their body language, oh, I'm in. Right? So you already have all of that information in your mind, but here's where it gets interesting.

1:31:37You've never applied any of those ideas in your head to yourself. So you'll be shocked because, again, when you all of a sudden watch yourself, you go, oh, no. I come across like Barry. Oh, no. Sorry to the Barrys out there. Just picked a random name. But again, they go, oh, no, I come across like Barry. But that's because, again, you've been avoiding this your entire life. Yeah. And the reason why I wanted to bring it up again, I'm so glad you brought it up again, is because if there's one thing you do if you listen to this episode, is record a video of yourself. And you'll thank Jay and I later because you'll see things that you didn't realize you know.

1:32:11You have so much beautiful knowledge already in your mind about what makes a great communicator. Because why are you drawn to a certain YouTube video and a certain creator? You've already had these internal references in your mind of what great communication is for you. Yes. And all of a sudden now, you get to apply the same list of things to yourself. Do you know how cool that is? That is so cool. And which brings me to my next point where my students ask me, And they go, well, Vin, how do I become myself though? How do I find my, because I always talk about this present version of you and your way to attach to it.

1:32:43Let go of the present version of you. Give the future version of you a chance. And they go, well, how do we make that transition? Well, I say, look, first of all, just record yourself. But then after that, as you begin this journey, I view the journey of being a great communicator like the journey of becoming a great chef. So how would you become a great chef? You would go out and you would look for a great chef and you would look for one of the recipes, you buy the recipe book, and then you'd copy their recipe, right? And then at the beginning, you copy their recipe almost exactly and then you start cooking it and you eat it and you go, I didn't think that's what the chef was intending.

1:33:12So you copy a little closer and you go, oh, I did the method wrong. And then as you copy closer, you go, oh, wow, that tastes amazing. And then as you cook it a few more times, you gain the confidence now to go, you know what? I'm going to add a little more chili. I got to say that the chef didn't put enough chili. You put a bit more chili, you put a little lemon, you put a little bit of more garlic, onion, everything. And now you make it your own. Same thing with communication skills. Yes. If you want to get some inspiration, go look up your top five communicators. Yeah. And then sit down, watch it, break it down.

1:33:40What are they doing that you love so much? Try those behaviors on. Now you have an ocean of different behaviors to play with. Yeah. And you'll try some of them on and you go, that's not me. Like, same with me. When I first started speaking on stage, I admired Anthony Robbins so much. I was like, wow, because I read his books. It changed my life. and I was like, I'm going to try to be like Anthony Robbins. And I jumped up and I did it and it felt so wrong because I was like, this is not me. But that was okay. I had to have done that to know it wasn't for me. I had to have eaten that dish to know I didn't like the flavor.

1:34:16But too many of us judge it before we try it. Absolutely. I'm not even going to try that dish. No, try it. Yeah. Because that's how I discovered some of my favorite dishes in my life was I resisted it, I tried it, loved it. Loved it after that, right? So again, start looking up a list of five communicators that you love and then just pick a few different things from them and try it on. It's all right. We share one of our favorite communicators, which is a bit more obscure that most people may not be aware of, may not see him as a communicator. It's Darren Brown. I think Darren is absolutely, Darren is my favorite person on stage to watch.

1:34:49Showmanship. Yeah. Showmanship is a magician's fancy word for communication skills. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Showmanship. Unbelievable. Everything. from the humor to the pacing to the body language to when to sit, when to stand. Stagecraft, mastery. Yeah. Yeah. It makes you want to give up magic when you see someone like that. Because you go, he's too good. He's too good. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I remember doing a trip to the UK. My wife likes Derren Brown. She doesn't love Derren Brown. Same, same. Same, same, same. We followed him to three cities to watch the same show. So that's why my wife couldn't stand it anymore by the end of it.

1:35:27But I watched the same show three times. I loved it even more the third time. What you talked about before, his ability to execute what they call planned spontaneity is unbelievable. That is such a skill. Like your comedian friend. Even though it happens nearly every night, people think it's random, but it happens every night. Planned spontaneity. He made it look spontaneous every single time. And I appreciated every moment of that. I was like, how did you make that look even more fresh than the first two times? It's incredible. But that's what it is. I love hearing that story that you went there three times, even though you knew what trick he was going to do.

1:36:04It's the same thing. Because that's what you're doing. You're studying the art of what worked. And then the other speech that I love, probably my favorite, favorite, favorite speech of all time that I've listened to the most at least, is Steve Jobs' Stanford commencement speech. Oh, wow. And it's a really interesting speech because there's no body gestures. There's no use of hands. there's nothing. It's potentially even monotonous. I think he speaks at the same volume pretty much the whole time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's something just so profound. His voice is phenomenal. Talk to me through why that works.

1:36:36Why so many people love that speech? Apart from it being Steve Jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I don't like to be like, oh, it was a good speech because it was Steve, everyone loved it. No, no, no. There was still something. I mean, the content's insane, but - Again, think of it from the perspective of music. Yeah. Right? But there are times that lyrics can be so powerful that the way you play that song is irrelevant. Because the lyrics of it speak to your heart. It's so strong that it doesn't matter how you play, it hits you. And that's where you can lean into the content. There is some content that is just so powerful that regardless of delivery, it hits.

1:37:14Because of the profound nature that exists within the lyrics. And then I've seen pianists play Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star and I was flabbergasted. One of the most basic songs you've ever heard. And the way they added chords to it and the rhythm and the way they – I've never heard Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star like that. So you can take something basic and use delivery to make it amazing or you could take something truly profound and have no delivery and it's just as amazing. And that's the beauty of music. That's the beauty of poems and art. And it's the beauty of that, right? And you just have to determine for you with what you're currently doing, does it have that level of profoundness?

1:37:56And can you keep that level of profoundness, that consistently throughout this life where you can just forget about delivery? And if you can, damn, good for you. That's amazing. Yeah, if you're Steve Jobs. Yeah, if you're Steve Jobs, that's incredible. And everything you say is that potent, then you don't have to worry about your communication skills. Because one of the, I'm sure you get this, you get trolls, but I always have troubles of my content where they're like, oh yeah, but then what about Elon Musk? He doesn't have to work. What about his communication skills? And I always say, I shouldn't ever respond to this but sometimes it get a bit cheeky and I do.

1:38:24And I go, listen, mate, if you're as smart and intelligent as Elon Musk, forget about communication skills. Just get us to Mars. Make us a multi-planetary species, right? Like forget about it. Please, please save the human race. But if you're a mere mortal like me, then you probably should work on this skill. But do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's so good. So again, and sometimes you're right. Sometimes when you have something that profound, you also want to let go of some of the bells and whistles. I agree, yeah. You want to let go of some of that. Yes. It's a delivery choice and a delivery style.

1:38:54Yeah, a good balance one that I've seen is Matthew McConaughey's Oscar speech when he accepted for Dallas Buyers Club. It's like that perfect balance between, I mean, he's got an amazing voice, phenomenal orator and communicator. And at the same time, the content's so profound. And so you see a great marriage of the two in that one where there's showmanship, there's performance, and there's potency. And you're right. I agree with you. I only brought up the Steve Jobs one because, and I love the way you explained it. I'm so glad I asked it. Because that idea of the lyrics just being so profound.

1:39:29You can just read it. Realized. He literally read it off a piece of paper and you're listening to every single word. I mean, you know, it's so powerful. I was going to ask you, people can sense when something feels inauthentic. What are we sensing? Misalignment. However, when it comes to communication alone, it's usually people trying something out that they haven't really ironed out yet. And I hope this is not nauseating and people are starting to vomit in the back of their throats at this point. But when somebody first plays the saxophone, how's it sound, Jay? Yeah, no, great. Yeah, I have one of those neighbors.

1:40:02Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. I find it very sweet as a young kid learning how to play, right? and do you ever sit for a moment and going that is the most inauthentic saxophone player i've ever heard in my life no what a fake saxophone player no you go that person's learning and i'm just making it communication related yeah i love it so when i have my students try out things for the first time and they're doing things like this right so they first learn volume they go ah i've been speaking with a low volume my whole life so then they go okay i'm gonna try to talk like this okay and i've just learned hand gestures so i'm gonna i'm gonna try to people immediately look at that and go inauthentic.

1:40:33You're doing something that's not authentic to you. No, no, no, no. I'm like, stop. That is someone just starting to learn how to play the saxophone. And the moment you call them inauthentic and fake, do you know what happens to them? They now revert to the same behaviors they've been repeating for the last 30 years of their life. It's such an intricate moment for someone when they're choosing to play their instrument in a different way that you've got to help them move towards the future version of them, Jay. And that's what we sense that inauthentic part where we go, oh, this person, I feel like they've been inauthentic.

1:41:04You don't know the backstory. Maybe this person is trying to be heard because their entire life they've been invisible. And the way that they're trying on this new way of speaking is because they're just testing out the instrument in a different way. And you just caught them on a bad day. You just caught them when they were playing poorly. And I think we need a little more of that compassion. We need a little more of that empathy because I've approached that and I've made those judgments before myself too. But I've also been through that messy middle where when I spoke, again, I was like a robot.

1:41:34And again, I knew that people were judging me, but if I didn't have the courage in that moment to push through, then I would still be the same version of me from 15 years ago. So I feel that from a communication context, when you're trying to improve, when people sense that in you, it's just you learning how to play the saxophone. It's okay. So all you got to do is this, all you got to do is this. Before you start to play with your voice and your body differently and you start to improve the way you communicate, prime your conversations. Say to your partner, say to your neighbor before you learn the saxophone, say, hey, listen, I've been inspired by listening to Vin and Jay on the podcast and I want to change the way I use my voice.

1:42:10I've been quiet my entire life. I want to give you and the kids more energy. If you see me speaking with more volume, can you encourage me? Because I want to be more. I want to give more. All of a sudden, if you give that context now, the next time you're like, hey, honey, I'm home. And she was like, Oh, Hey, it's so good to see you try. Now with that context, they support you. Without the context, if you just immediately come home, they go, I know what they'll say. They go, why are you doing that with your voice? Why are you doing that? Why are you doing that? And it's because something my vocal coach used to say too, she used to say this, she goes, your voice is your personality.

1:42:43And I used to, I'm like, what? And she goes, no, no, no. Your voice is your personality. When people compliment you on your personality, the literal thing they're complimenting is how you're playing your instrument. Interesting. Because that's how we perceive personality. We perceive personality through the use of the instrument. Yeah. Personality comes through music. That's why you can listen to a soundtrack. I do this experiment with not only my kids, but my students too. I love doing this experiment where I just play a piano track and I get them to listen to it and I go, what words come to mind?

1:43:12And it's crazy. They'll say things like, my students will say things like, oh, I hear complexity. I hear drama. I hear, oh, I hear pain. I hear misery. I hear nostalgia. And I always wake them up to it. And I go, do you know there were no words in that? None. None whatsoever. Yet you've got a world of meaning from that. People get a world of meaning just from the sound of your voice and how you use your voice. So if you pay no attention to that, that means you're putting no intention into how you're coming across. Yeah. And I love that point, man. I love your heart for saying that too, that so much of the time when we think someone's inauthentic, it's really just inexperienced.

1:43:53They're trying something new. Yeah. They're trying something new. They're exploring. And we always look at it and we judge them and we think, oh, they're fake. And half the time, it's just someone trying to figure something out. And then what we don't realize we're doing is then we give them negative feedback that immediately puts them into the same patterns of behavior that has been causing them pain because we're not as compassionate. We see what they do, we don't see why they do what they do. Whereas I think if we took a moment to go, why would that person do that? Oh, maybe they're exploring their instrument.

1:44:21I think it was Carl Jung that said that. Again, we see what people do. We don't see why they do what they do. Vin, it's been such a joy talking to you, man. You're brilliant. You're not just a brilliant communicator. You've got a great heart too. And it comes across in the way you want to help people and see them grow. and the amount that you've thought through the challenges, the trip ups, all the blocks that we run into, man. It's really beautiful. And I really thank you and commend you for your amazing work. And it's very special. So thank you, man. Jay, thank you for giving me the opportunity.

1:44:57I'm from Adelaide, South Australia. I never thought that I'd ever be able to connect with you in person and hang out with you, Jay. This is unreal. Thank you for the opportunity, Jay. No, I'm a fan, so it's easy. we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five these have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum are you serious yeah so you can't this is my kryptonite so you can't you can't you can't yeah I'll probably break it for you because you're such a good explainer sure sure sure I'll let you do it no no no I won't I'm gonna try to stick to hey rules are rules okay alright the first question what's the best piece of communication advice you've ever heard or received your voice is an instrument play all of the songs that are trapped within you.

1:45:38Don't die with all your music trapped inside. That was a great sentence. It's a long sentence. It's a great sentence. Long sentences are fine. Second question, what's the worst communication advice you've ever heard, received or given? If you're nervous, just look over their heads. I was literally given that advice. What are you meant? You can expand. What are you meant to do? Well, again, you want to look at people, look at them in the eyes because the advice was look over their heads, they won't be able to tell. And this was my first piece of advice I was given when I was going on stage. And I started looking over people's heads and it just looked like I was arrogant, right?

1:46:10Because I was like, oh, hey, everyone, good to see you. And I wasn't looking them in the eyes. And also you get no feedback. You have no energetic exchange. You don't have a clue. Well, the worst thing is it's that and then you look like an arrogant prick. Arrogant, yeah. That's interesting. I never thought about that. All right. Question number three on that point. Why does our body and our hands shake when we're nervous? It's the excess adrenaline. And you have the remedy to that in this episode already. star jobs. I love it. Question number four. What's something that you used to believe was true about communication, but not anymore?

1:46:47That I was stuck with the sound of my voice. It's just a series of behaviors. If you change the behaviors, you change the sound. Example. When I told my dad I wanted to leave accounting to become a magician, I remember what he said. He said, what the hell you want to be the Harry Potter? Literally what he said to me. I just changed the way I moved my mouth. I just changed a series of behaviors. I changed the sound I was able to create. It's just behaviors. Walk me through that conversation.

1:47:19Yeah, so my mom and dad are refugees in Vietnam and they cling to safety and security because of fear and they've known fear all of their lives. So I remember coming home saying to my mom and dad, I said, mom, dad, I really want to quit university. And obviously they wanted me to fulfill the Asian prophecy. Obviously, same with your parents, I'm sure. I had this really heart-to-heart conversation with them where I said, mom, dad, why did you escape the war? Why? And they said, we escaped because we want to find a better home for you. But I'm like, yeah, yeah, but why? Why was Vietnam at the time not a good home?

1:47:52Why is Australia a better home? And they said, freedom. And I said, oh, great. So you made the decision to flee to Australia for freedom. Then do you want to force me into a career that's going to create misery for me? Is that what you want? And I know why you're doing this. It's because of love, mom and dad. Because you're so afraid. But we're not in Vietnam anymore. We're in Australia and we're free. And I know that the reason you came here is to give me the freedom to do what I love. And I was able to wake them up from fear. and remember the main reason why they came here in the first place.

1:48:29Because their lives were driven by fear of not enough, of we're in danger. And they still carried all of that fear. They didn't realize it. And when I woke them up to that, it was such a beautiful conversation because it was almost like my parents were reminded. They're like, no, no, thank you for reminding us. We've been so driven by fear our entire lives. Because I said to them, I did work experience at an accounting firm. And dad, do you know what they all do on a Friday night? they go drinking because they're drowning their sorrows in something they don't like. And I'm sure people love accounting.

1:48:59It's just where I did work experience, they didn't love it. They dreaded every day. And I said, that's me. That's going to be me. That's the path I'm walking. So I already know that's not the path. And then the most beautiful thing my dad said to me after realizing all of this is he goes, you still owe me one thing though, boy. In this life, you have to jump as high as you can. And as long as I'm alive, I'll forever be your net. Wow. And I needed that net a lot of times. Oh yeah, I tested that net many times. And I share this now in a long answer because Jay, I'm sitting here having achieved the things I've achieved because of my mom and my dad.

1:49:38Without that net, without their support, without their love, without their guidance, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have been able to do this. And I think this is true for those listening too. You would not be where you are if it wasn't for whether it's the families we choose or the families we were born into. If it wasn't for them, we would not be who we are. We would not be where we are. They must be really proud now. Yeah, they still - And then you quit magic. The first time my dad came and saw me speak, at the end of it, the funniest thing, he comes up to me and he goes, they pay you for this?

1:50:11And he was so mind blown because he goes, because I wouldn't. He was so shocked. He couldn't believe it was a thing. you couldn't believe that professional speaking was a career path but it's so beautiful to see their mind open up and then the most beautiful thing my dad said to me recently this was maybe in the last five years where he came up to me and he said thanks for not giving up on me because because there was a lot of conversations at the time in many different Vietnamese families where the kids would give up on their parents where it'd be like you know if you're not supporting me stuff you yeah I'm out whereas I I really didn't give up on my parents I I remember my first magic gig I did and I made like 1500 bucks for performing for an hour this was like outrageous.

1:50:49This is a week's worth of work, right? And I bought home the cash and I was like, dad, look, I got this in an hour. And I celebrated that moment with him. I made him a part of that because I knew that I had to slowly show him what's possible. I couldn't all of a sudden go dad refugee, been through the war and immediately say magician to him. It's like, what the frick is that? That doesn't make sense. But as I slowly shared my wins with him on my journey, I was able to open my dad's mind. So my dad got to be a part of the journey with me and my mom. and when he thanked me for that it was one of the sweetest moments because you could have very easily gave up on me and now we have this beautiful relationship and it's one of my most important relationships yeah that's beautiful man thank you for sharing that that counts as one word no no no I wanted to hear it I wanted to hear it fifth and final question we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow what would it be?

1:51:41use your instrument to spread more love kindness and compassion Vin Jiang, thank you so much. Such an honor having you here. I hope I get to do this many, many more times together. Thank you, Jay. If all of you are listening and watching, if you don't already follow Vin on social media, we will put all the links in the comments. Go and follow him across TikTok, Instagram, all platforms. I really hope that this episode makes you a better communicator to your partner, your parents, in your profession, in all areas of your life. It's such a key skill that's needed. and I would love to see on Instagram and TikTok, the clips, the moments, the parts that really stood out to you.

1:52:19Tag us both so we can see what you're practicing. If you do a video of yourself every day and start posting or practicing, tag us in it. I want to see it. I really, really want to see it. I really, really want to see it. It would be so awesome. I'd love to be able to interact with you all and see how much you've grown from it. And again, Vin, you are welcome back to On Purpose anytime you want. So I hope you'll come back and see you again. 100%. Thank you, man. Cheers, brother. Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

1:52:53Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It grows where it's soft and green and vulnerable. This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given. and Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get eight times the points on all the purchases I make through Chase Travel and even access to one-of-a-kind experiences, experiences like music festivals and sporting events.

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1:54:19And a sense of clarity stayed long after the trip. With Delta, fly and live better. Explore the whole journey on Delta's YouTube channel. Thursday night football is on and it's only on Prime Video. Going deep. This week, it's a California showdown. Division rivals lock horns when the 49ers meet the Rams. What a great job. Coverage begins Thursday at 7 p.m. Eastern with football's best party. TNF Tonight presented by Verizon. Not a prime member, not a problem. Simply sign up for a 30-day free trial. 49ers, Rams, Thursday at 7 p.m. Eastern, only on Prime Video. Restrictions apply. See amazon.com slash amazon.com for details.

1:54:59This is an iHeart Podcast.