Dan Buettner: 5 Secrets to Live to 100+ & The Hack That Will Change the Way You Make Daily Food Decisions

0:00This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Radhi Dvlukia and I'm the host of a Really Good Cry podcast and I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Uri if you're out there trying to date right now being ghosted on Hinge or want to create a dating profile that gives you a solid chance of matching with someone you actually want to go on a date with then this episode with Hinge's Director of Relationship Science Logan Uri is definitely for you Relationships do require work the best relationships are people who really work on them together Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:59offers a path to longevity that's enjoyable. Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me. The best-selling author and host. The number one health and wellness podcast. On Purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.

1:38Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Now, I love sitting down with people who have deeply studied, obsessed, and excavated insights and ideas for us. people who have focused deeply on mining the world, traveling the world and finding wisdom, finding tenets of ideas and concepts that can transform the way we live in the modern world. And today's guest is someone I've had on the show before, but I am so excited to see him again. After around four or five years it's been since we were last together, I'm speaking about Dan Buettner, an Explorer, National Geographic Fellow, award-winning journalist and producer and New York Times bestselling author.

2:24Dan discovered the five places in the world dubbed Blue Zones Hotspots, where people live the longest, healthiest lives. In Dan's new book that I have right now, The Blue Zone, Secrets for Living Longer, Lessons from the Healthiest Places on Earth, Dan talks about his travels and journeys of living and learning from people all over the world that we'll dive into today. I want you to grab a copy of this book. It beautifully synthesizes and summarizes really complex and difficult ideas and really, really simple and beautiful ones in a way that you can practice them and bring them to life in yours and the people you love.

3:05Welcome to the show, Dan Buechner. Dan, thank you for being here. You're such a master. It's a complete joy to see you again and to be here in your studio. Yeah, and congratulations on your documentary too on Netflix. I mean, it's been received exceptionally well. If anyone hasn't seen it yet, make sure you go and see that and get the book at the same time. It's so beautiful because when we met, you'd been dedicated to this work for so long already. And the fact that it's now having another resurgence and, you know, it's becoming even more mainstream, which I love because I think these ideas need to be mainstream.

3:37Talk to us just about how long you've been fascinated and obsessed about this journey and how amazing it is. You just said a moment ago outside to me, you said, you know, I thought the work had had its course, but here it is again. It's timeless. 1999, I read a study in the World Health Organization finding that Okinawa, Japan produces the longest lived disability-free lives in the world. And I thought, aha, that's a great mystery. And it did a very quick expedition there and became personally on fire about the topic. and then in 2004 I got an assignment from National Geographic and a grant from the National Institutes on Aging and wrote a cover story for National Geographic and the idea here Jay was you know so many it's very hot in Silicon Valley right now to search for longevity hacks or anti-aging nostrums and so forth and instead of looking for secret to longevity in a test tube or some sort a genetic code, we very methodically found these five areas where people are living measurably longer.

4:44And then because only about 20 % of how long we live is dictated by our genes, 80 % of something else, then we took teams of scientists to find the common denominators and the correlates. And I think the reason the Netflix series is resonating so much right now is because in our fast-paced world where we're constantly looking for answers in technology, we've overlooked this wonderful repository of time-honored wisdom that if we stop, pay attention, you can see not only is there plenty of evidence that these approaches work, but also it offers a path to longevity that's enjoyable. Absolutely. And I'm so happy that you're shining a light on that because I think it's so interesting how obsessed we can get and even how stressed we can get about our health.

5:34And almost when you go back to these very grassroots ways and methods and approaches, it's so much more natural and organic. But walk us through that. You said 20 % is genes. What's the other 80 %? Maybe 10 % is healthcare. You know, how good your insurance is, how much access you have to hospitals and doctors. But the other 70 % or so, I argue it is largely your environment. We spend over$150 billion a year on diets and exercise programs. But if you look at the duration of how long those last, it's measured in months or maybe a year and a half or so. And when it comes to longevity, there's no short-term fix.

6:11There's no pill, there's no supplement. It is the sum of lots of small improvements to your lives aggregated over decades. That's what works. And I've been shown nothing else that can work in the short run. So that 70 % is how you set up your environment so that you are unconsciously nudged to do things that favor longevity and nudged away from the things that we know take away from health and vitality. That's kind of the general idea. And I love that idea about environment. I think the challenge is today that a lot of us would find that environments we grow up in or environments we live and work in are almost set up against longevity.

6:53Yes. Would you agree with that? and what are some of the ways in which we almost have to not fight, but we have to almost defend, protect, and create environments to grow and be abundant in? So we're in Los Angeles right now. I happen to know that the average Angeleno spends 47 hours a year, not just in traffic, stopped in traffic. In places that are walkable, where there are bike lanes, where there are nice wide sidewalks with trees, so they're aesthetically pleasing, cleaned up playground, the physical activity level of the entire community is 20 % higher. So we live in an age-shered nation where fewer than 24 % of people get the minimum amount of physical activity, which is only about 20 minutes.

7:35So just by living in a walkable neighborhood, you're probably going to get more physical activity over the long term than you are signing up for a gym. The other problems our food environment you know we evolved with uh genetic hardwiring to favor salt favor sugar yearn for fat and take rest whenever we can that served us very well in in an environment of scarcity and difficulty like we evolved in but now we live in this environment where we're never more than five steps away from a salty snack or soda or hamburger or pizza and you know our genes lust for that. And we can try to deploy discipline or presence of mind to overcome it three or four times, but the sixth time you're confronted by it in a day, you know, that discipline muscle wears out and next thing you're, you know, eating that Snickers or digging into that bag of chips.

8:27And it's hard to wag your finger at Americans and say, it's your responsibility to eat healthy when 97 out of 100 choices out there for most people aren't healthy. I want to dive into all the lessons and the insights that we can make shifts. How have you found people being able to apply the Blue Zones work in their modern lives, in these big cities, in places where 97 out of 100 options are unhealthy or toxic or whatever they may be? What examples have you seen? And what have you learned about people actually making changes and transformations in their life? So I have two answers. And first, I'll take it at the community level.

9:08So my daytime job for most of the last 13 years has been working with cities. We're publicly endorsed, but privately funded. So we don't get involved with people worried about spending tax dollars. We've gone into cities like Fort Worth, Texas, Naples, Florida, Jacksonville, the whole state of Hawaii. and instead of trying to get people to try to convince people to eat mostly a plant-based diet and get physical activity we work with city council to help them identify policies that favor healthy food over junk food that favor the pedestrian over the motorist that favor the non-smoker over the smoker and we don't come in telling cities what to do nobody wants to be told what to do we bring them menus and then we go through every item on that policy menu and assess it for number one, effective.

9:57Do people in this room from the public and private sector think it would be effective in this city? And two, is it feasible? Is there enough sort of political equity to get these things done? And in every city, we're able to find a half a dozen to a dozen policies that float to the top and my team could get implemented. And that's the biggest. According to the CDC, the most powerful lever we have to create a healthier America is policy. It's the most cost effective. But then we also have a Blue Zones certification program for restaurants, grocery stores, workplaces, and schools. And over five years, we can usually get 30 to 40 % of those places to agree to optimize their designs and their policies so people mindlessly move more, eat better, you know, cafeterias are healthier with healthier choices, socialize more.

10:49We all know loneliness kills and then no one lived their purpose. And it only works when you're comprehensive. And from the time people wake up till the time they go to bed, they are nudged, unconsciously nudged into slightly better behaviors over the period of decades. And in every city we worked in and Gallup measures this, we've seen the obesity rate go down, life satisfaction go up and health care go down a lot and in a country where we're spending 4.4 trillion dollars on health care that's an important consideration yeah absolutely i mean it's incredible to have these very i love how you're approaching it almost from a very macro level like in the sense of it's not just about micro habit changes it's about redesigning entire cities or reformatting entire cities which which i was fascinated when we first met and you walked me through the models and I remember you showing us how you were thinking parks and spaces could be redesigned and how schools and homes and how they all need to be close to each other and I was thinking wow this is it's such a practical but macro level I want to dive into some of these areas because I want to give people a small tour of this beautiful book that you've created and of course highly recommend that everyone grabs the book for all the full details but the blue zones are Sardinia, Nicoya, Loma Linda, Ikaria, Okinawa and Singapore and so they're not necessarily the most they're not predictable and they're not places that you'd go oh yeah i know that place like of course those people live a long time they're they're they're and i've only been to i've been to sardinia before and i remember going and meeting with some of the people then i was totally blown away i've been to singapore before and i met some local individuals but i wanted to dive into a couple of areas that i highlighted so i want to talk a little bit about about a few things that may sound counterintuitive to people.

12:41One of these ones was the plant-based diet, because I think a lot of people, right now there's a lot of debate over plant-based versus meat-based diet, but this was something that you saw across the board as quite a strong indicator of longevity. I think people should eat what makes them feel the best, and I'm not here to tell people what to eat, but I'm also right for National Geographic, and my feet are held to the fire. So if I want to talk about a diet of longevity, our process was to aggregate dietary surveys in all five blue zones. Universities go out and find what the population is eating.

13:20And we did that for over the past 80 years. So 155 dietary surveys over 80 years. So we know what a centenarian was eating when they were 20 and what they're eating when they were newly retired. And recently, I had oversight from Harvard to do what's called a meta-analysis. and if you really want to know what a centenarian has eaten most of his or her life uh it is about 90 to 95 percent whole plant-based food uh contrary to sort of the popular keto diets and so forth it's very high in carbohydrates but complex carbohydrates carbohydrates both jelly beans and and lentil beans are carbohydrates and obviously you know in a way carbohydrates is the worst word in the nutritional dictionary because I would argue simple carbohydrates like jelly beans are the most toxic components of our diet, whereas beans is the most healthy.

14:11The five pillars of every longevity diet in the world are whole grains, greens and other garden vegetables. It's all seasonal. Tubers like sweet potatoes. In Okinawa until 1970, about 65 to 70 % of all the calories consumed were from purple sweet potatoes. Nuts as a snack. And then the cornerstone of every longevity diet in the world is beans. And if you're eating a cup of beans a day, it's probably worth about four years of extra life expectancy. They do eat meat. And I readily acknowledge that. The Adventists don't all eat meat. But in all blue zones, on average, they were eating meat about five times per month.

14:50The average American eats about 220 pounds of meat a year, which is just too much. I think there's plenty of evidence to show that that level of meat consumption is highly associate it with about a doubling or tripling of your chances of cardiovascular disease and even type 2 diabetes. In blue zones, they might be consuming 20 pounds of meat a year, and it's a celebratory food. It's usually from an animal that's had a pretty decent life, not to say that that justifies killing it, but it's just a whole different way of consuming between meat and much lower quantities. So is there room for meat in people's diet?

15:31Probably, but a lot less than I think we're consuming. Yeah. And I love how you've connected. And I mean, the amount of analysis that's been done is truly remarkable. And obviously the amount of years, the fact that you know what someone is eating at 20 years old and what they've eaten for their whole life is pretty phenomenal. One of these ones that you had here was laughing with friends and you know i think laughter is laughter and crying both are such underestimated emotions and expressions and i almost feel like i wonder if every one of us who's listening and watching right now did a personal audit on how much we laughed per week oh yeah i'd be intrigued to see how many of us and i would love that everyone who's listening and watching just for the next seven days, it sounds like a stupid activity and maybe this makes you laugh and that's great.

16:22Write down how many times you truly laughed, not just like ha ha ha, but like truly laughed every day. What did you discover about the importance of laughter? Because that sounds like such a subtle, soft, small thing, but you put it in the book. I'm Radhi Dvlukia and I'm the host of a Really Good Cry podcast and I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Ury. Logan is a dating expert, a behavioral scientist, a best-selling author and someone who is seriously changing the way we think about love and dating. In our conversation, we talk all things dating that Logan has studied and tested from what to put in your dating profile, the pictures you should and shouldn't be using to the conversation starters that actually work and the huge no-nos that people probably do not realize are reducing their chances of success on apps.

17:04Whether you're single, dating, or just trying to be more intentional in love, Logan offers the kind of clarity we all need. relationships do require work and the best relationships are people who really work on them together they're so focused on if i find the perfect person then i'll have the perfect relationship instead of understanding really that they can choose someone great and then build that relationship together they don't need to keep searching for perfection listen to a really good cry on the iheart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast well it's hard to quantify quite honestly but where that comes from the word sardonic which is a type of kind of slightly biting but good-natured humor comes from sardinia and it very much pervades the culture there there's a lot of sort of ribbing good-natured ribbing of each other and that's sort of a social currency so when they get together at the end of the day for their glass of wine or two it's usually they're not sitting around griping about politics or what the left is doing or what the right is doing.

18:04They're poking fun of each other, the shepherd over the hill. And so that was, that's an anecdotal observation, but it just seemed to be one of the propellants of a very hearty and healthy social life. I wrote the cover story for National Geographic in 2005. I don't think anybody was connecting social, the quality of your social relations with health or longevity until my first articles and books were. And I think there's a general realization that transcends blue zones that, you know, if you could put the health full properties of a good social life in a tablet, it would be a billion dollar blockbuster drug.

18:49Having at least three friends who you can laugh with, who care about you on a bad day is worth about eight years of life expectancy over being alone. And I don't know of any other supplement or pill that will give you anywhere near that. We inherently know that. Like when someone hears that, they sound, yeah, I have three friends. But I think like you said, it's the topic of conversation. It's the energetic exchange. It's the vulnerability and the depth of that relationship that seems to be stifled. Like you're saying, like we're all searching for the magic pill, but you're saying actually just having three friends that you can call on a bad day is actually going to increase your life expectancy greater than any pill you could take.

19:34Which just to think about that for a second, like you make it sound so easy, but that's a really powerful point. But we maybe don't engage as effectively with three people in our life. Where have we gone wrong in that social space? What did you kind of come across? There's this great Harvard researcher named Robert Putnam. He wrote a book called Bowling Alone. And when he first wrote it in the late 80s, he calculated that the average American has three friends. Now, he now calculates we're down to under two. So we may think that we're socially connected, but as a nation, we're getting less and less socially connected.

20:09And I think part of it is this thing right here. We're using this as a proxy for the face-to-face conversations like we're having right now, which isn't nearly as good. Part of it's our environment. We spend about twice as much time in our cars than we did in 1980. If we're in our cars, we're not out walking, interacting with people and having those serendipitous social interactions that can lead to friendships. We spend four and a half hours a day at least interacting with our screens. Yet again, another time taken away from social interaction. And we are humans. The reason why we're successful over other simians is that we have this capacity to feel empathy for each other, to cooperate with each other.

20:53And at the end of the day, most things that feel good favor our health and our longevity. That's why we get hungry and it feels good to eat or, you know, we get that little urge and it feels good to have sex. These are all things that sort of favor the thriving of our species. Yeah, I want to pick a few things that really resonated with me there. First is, you spoke about serendipitous moments. And I think that that's such a, again, it's become so random or rare now to bump into someone at a grocery store and start a conversation. we're in a line at anywhere whether it's the doctors whether it's a store whatever it may be and everyone's on their phone and it would be rare or actually we'd see it as weird if someone said hello to us we'd kind of look around going are you okay like what do you need it would be uncomfortable and i actually think that when those synchronous or serendipitous moments happen where you kind of have a moment of surprise or delight or you bump into someone that feels familiar i had this happen to me through a work thing last week we were going on a work project one person on the team hadn't come to an event yet we hit it off immediately and it felt like serendipity and it was through work and i was just like i want to build a relationship with this person and i often feel that way and because i moved country and i moved city so i moved from london to new york to now la i've had the positive pressure of having to rebuild community and i remember when i moved to New York and then moved to LA, I said to my wife, I was like, we're not just, I'm not just trying to build my career.

22:28I want to build community at the same time because you can't really have one without the other. I could have an amazing career here, but if I don't have community, how meaningful is my career going to feel? And so they were both pursuits and efforts. And I remember having this really, and I still do it today and I'm 36 years old and I'm not shy about it. If I connect with someone or if I enjoy someone's company, I'll just say, hey, do you want to come over for dinner let's hang out and i try and avoid going out for dinner and i try and avoid going to bars and restaurants because i find them to be loud i find them to be impersonal and i find them also to be short like you go out for dinner for an hour and a half and then everyone look at their phone and leave and i almost think that if there's someone that i deeply want to connect with i'd rather meet them one-on-one and if they can come over to my apartment or my home or whatever it may be that intimate time and ordering food in kind of creates more time you're now going to spend three hours with someone, it's likely that you're going to extend that period of time.

23:22And another thing that's been massive in helping me is I think often we hide in groups. So we go out with big groups. We go out with 20 people. We go out with 30 people and you then end up having, or you go out with six people and you end up having five shallow conversations as opposed to one or two deeper ones. Now, I'm not saying I don't hang out in groups. I do and I enjoy it. And my wife and I throw regular game nights and we love that kind of stuff. But I also crave deep intimate valuable conversation as well and i know my friends do and so to me i've i've tried really really hard and sometimes you know you wear your heart on your sleeve and you say to someone hey do you want to hang out and they're like no and and it's okay because i feel like if if i do feel that with someone and someone feels it back with me that's the beginning of a beautiful friendship as an adult and i feel like we make less friends as adults than obviously we did as kids and especially for men especially oh yeah interesting go ahead sorry no and i'd actually like to explore this idea of the positive pressure to socialize i think there are a lot of americans who would love more social interaction it's just hard and i'm wondering what you like if you're a middle-aged american living in iowa in a small town how would you use this positive pressure and actually start to build network or build meaningful relationships?

24:46I find places of equal value, and that could be a bar, a restaurant, a pool bar, a darts place. I don't know. I'm thinking places that people in England definitely go to connect. Like, you know, I think sports. To me, finding, this has happened recently to me here. And I know this is in Iowa, but the idea of I have made - Almost. I haven't made, I have made so many new friends simply playing pickleball. So pickleball has taken over the nation. I go to a local park, like literally 10 minutes down the road. I go there and I play. And if we've lost a doubles partner or whatever, we'll go up to someone random or someone will come up to us and say, Hey, are you guys looking for another pair?

25:27And we're like, yeah, sure. And all of a sudden you're on a text thread and you're all friends and you're playing pickleball together twice a week and so i found that sports places of equal value i think charities and give back opportunities are amazing places i think there are so many social networks inside a city that we're not even aware of obviously people's schools and your children's schools and communities i think there are just so many opportunities to meet like-minded people and i think if we go there wanting to connect and find people of equal value i think it's possible and so I don't know I've never been to Iowa so I can't speak specifically for there but I definitely feel like it's great stuff yeah getting into places of yeah finding tangents to connect on I don't think you're going to bump into someone at a grocery store I don't think you're going to bump into someone on the street anymore it doesn't work like that but you will bump into someone if you went to a class a course a program an event I went on a world tour this year we went to nearly 40 cities across the world and I had people who turned up to my show single alone came by themselves and left with a group of friends right like and that's that i think that's possible but because you're going to a place where you feel safe and they share interests obviously sharing exploring what you're and probably sharing values exactly yeah it's just that you know we're sort of relentlessly marketed that the path to health is through this diet program or this exercise program or these supplements or a longevity hack and the realization that quality social interaction is probably better for your health than any of those things.

27:01Marketers can't make money off of it, so you don't hear about it. To your point about pickleball, I think it is the most important social innovation that America has seen in the last three decades. I'm also a pickleball fanatic. Oh, I love it. Yeah, and we have this place where I'll just show up at nine o 'clock in the morning alone, and within 10 minutes, I'm playing a game. And often, because there's so much kind of talking back and forth. By the end of it, I have the seeds of three new friendships. And after three months, it's a community. I think it's a wonderful thing. A few other things that have worked for me.

27:36This past summer, I visited Minnesota some. I want to expand my social circle. So I started, I just went through my own context, just one by one and thought, yeah, that's a person who's A, healthy, and I'm interested in, and I'd like to get to know. and I just made Tuesday and Thursday afternoons lunch days because it was a low bar, you know, for me to ask somebody to come to lunch with me, I'll pay, you know. And instead of investing in a diet program or something or, you know, some supplements, I, you know, had eight lunches. And out of that eight lunches, three of those people are, you know, more of a, I would say, in my immediate social circle now.

28:16So there's ways to do that. Yeah, that's brilliant. Super practical. Another one that stuck out, and I want to go into so many more, but this one kind of on that community element and again potentially more anecdotal but but really powerful and a big part of how we lived in the monastery and and how i was raised celebrating elders and i i love that idea because my wife's one of my wife's favorite people in the world or her favorite person in the world is her grandmother who's thankfully still with us and she loves celebrating her she loves spending time with her she loves learning from her she a few years ago she sat down and interviewed her just for herself so she'd have those memories to hold on to her grandma's experiences.

28:56She went and asked her grandmother to share with her old photos and all of this kind of stuff. When I think about my monk teachers who are twice my age and celebrating them and being present with them and learning from them, I think celebrating elders is such a part of society that's completely been lost, but especially in Sardinia that stood out. Walk us through what you saw there it's very easy to map perspective of elders as as a longevity strategy for a community so you go into these sort of old man uh bars up in the mountains and instead of seeing the sports illustrated uh the swimsuit of the month you know uh you would see the centenarian of the month and they actually have that yeah yes in uh in uh bon eye it's called in in the cluster the blue zone.

29:42I mean, that's just an outward manifestation. But in Sardinia, it would shame the family to put your aging parent in a retirement home. So they all stay nearby or usually living in the home. And they're not just recipients of care. I think a lot of people are afraid of that. They're expected to participate. So the women are helping with child care. They are the keepers of the food tradition uh the men you know they're still advising when to plant when to sow they know how to make that wonderful blue zones wine which has the very high levels of antioxidants so it's this beautiful virtuous circle where older people are told they matter they're they're given a reason to get up in the morning to take their meds to stay physically fit to eat right so they're living longer and then there's something called the grandmother effect that shows that a household with a grandmother living in it, or at least nearby, grandfather or grandmother, those children have lower rates of mortality and lower rates of disease.

30:45So this circle is what sort of, think of it an upward ratcheting of the life expectancy of the whole community. And that becomes harder, like even for us, like we've moved away. We're not close to our own parents. And of course our grandparents are getting older as well. And it's harder when you've, the world is growing and the world is getting bigger and you're moving and traveling more, is there a way of keeping that connection through phones, through FaceTimes, through visits? Can it still have a similar impact? Yeah. Or even more immediate, have a surrogate grandparent. There's a Yale researcher named Becca Levy who found that just having a positive attitude towards aging lowers your mortality by about 40%.

31:28And part of that is having older people in your life and learning from their wisdom and honoring it, not forcing them to retire, but finding a way for their wisdom to put work, even though they might not have as much fluid intelligence as they had when they were 30. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, I have a lot of, that makes me feel really good. I'm really happy you brought that up as such a research point. I definitely have people in LA that I see as those elders in my life and in my world that can replace those people that I don't always have access to. That's really powerful. A couple of things that I want to surprise people with, because this was huge, a couple of fun ones.

32:06This ideal to drink seven cups of green tea a day. I think this was on your TikTok. Seven cups of green tea. Talk me through that. That sounds like a lot. Hard to do. I was just in Kyoto last week with a researcher who actually very clearly mapped it to frailty. seven is ideal but as little as three cups of green tea a day uh is associated with about four extra years of healthy life expectancy and we don't know why i mean you can you can guess it's probably the antioxidants or the ketchikins they call but it or there's there's probably 1500 compounds in green tea we don't know for sure but green tea's been around for a long time and it's consumed daily in volume by at least two of these blue zones and um you know it's one of these things that you know rather than turn to the super food or the super beverage why not drink what we uh learn from our our ancestors who've achieved the outcomes we want which is a long healthy life yeah absolutely my wife and i created this uh sparkling adaptogenic tea called juni and we put one cup of green tea in there.

33:16And so that's one of the seven, at least. I'm doing this for my longevity. It's got zero grams of sugar in it. This is delicious. Thank you. It's got zero grams of sugar in it, only five calories. It's all natural products. It's, you know, it was part of that. Like, how do you create something that's fun and healthy at the same time? And I'm glad you enjoyed it. Yes, and that competes with the sugar sweetened beverages and much better off grabbing a Juni than a Pepsi. Yeah. No, but that was the goal. It was like, I think it's about what you're doing here as well. It's about how do we make alternatives accessible and how do we make healthy options accessible.