Dr. Ramani: 2 Signs You are Being Love Bombed & 8 Ways to Know If You are Dealing with a Narcissist

25:45Doesn't work like that. The child has to hold this parent in esteem, which means the child that needs to devalue themselves. What am I doing wrong? How could I be more? And the child really learns how to be everything that parent wants and needs to the detriment of their own needs, right? This is our backstory. Exactly. So now let's just jump that to adulthood, right? So the child comes up with all kinds of fantasies. But in adulthood, they may be things like, everyone has a bad day. Relationships are tough. I'm no picnic myself. They've been working really hard. We did have a good weekend. They did tell me I love you.

26:26I mean, I could go on for the next two hours about all the justifications I've heard, right? So the justifications are not only proliferate, they come easily. And Jay, they're reinforced by the world, right? Because the world will say, oh, relationships are tough. Maybe they're just having a bad day, right? So now what you're saying is completely in line with sort of what the prevailing wisdom would be. And you do that enough every time these really invalidating, destabilizing things that cut to the core of your identity happen. The people who tend to get more stuck in these relationships, quite frankly, are the more empathic people.

27:02While narcissistic people are attracted to people who are whatever supply attractive they are to them, the people who get stuck are the people who are more vulnerable to trauma bonding and who have more empathy and as a result are more likely to make those excuses and justifications, right? They're going to be more open to the idea that there's always different ways to, there's another point of view. That's what empathic people do. And that's how it happens. But in a trauma bonded relationship. And it's also about cognitive dissonance, right? That we don't like the tension of inconsistency within ourselves.

27:33So we're always trying to make it fit. And how do we relieve that tension and make it fit? We justify. Then we can maintain the status quo. And human beings are also homeostatic creatures. We like the status. I want to keep living here. I want to keep having this routine. I don't want to find a new place to put my toothbrush. I don't want to wake up in a new place, even if you kind of might want to. Over time, many survivors will say, I don't even care if I wake up in a random place as long as I'm not waking up here. But how much terribleness had to happen to the person in that period of time.

28:06And so it's a person is just getting sort of slowly distanced from their true nature. The longer a person is in a narcissistic relationship, the more they literally have to abandon themselves. That's what I wanted to touch actually where you got to is you know what is the impact of narcissistic abuse like how because i think often we also think like oh yeah well you should know that you know he was a waste of time or you well look what look what she did to you like you should be aware like you know it's it's almost like we assume that it should logically make sense to someone that they should be happy that they're now away from this person but often with people who've been with narcissistic people especially empathetic people they're still saying well i hope they're okay i hope that person's okay like i know they're struggling what is the impact of someone who's experienced narcissistic abuse on a deep scientific psychological level like what is what is actually going on for them so what we're seeing pretty consistently across and now i can say now thousands of people we've looked at who have experienced these relationships is consistently we see a problematic level of rumination regret anxiety sadness self-blame self-doubt a um a sense of hyper vigilance a social anxiety that comes from it and i want to put a pin in that hyper vigilant piece because i want to come back to that in a moment an interesting sort of mild dissociation where a person has become dissociated from their needs their wants and their true nature because that has been so consistently invalidated in this relationship.

29:46You see problems with sleep. You see, you see the neuro vegetative stuff we see in depression, like the changes in appetite. You see problems with concentration. What's interesting though, about survivors of narcissistic abuse is that some of them may actually develop clinical depression, but most don't. And what I'll see is these are folks when they are surrounded by healthy supports, therapist, friends, they're animated. They're lovely. They don't seem like a person who's under that heavy weight of depression, right? So it is really the, when the relationship is present, it's taking its toll.

30:21And it is why so many survivors of narcissistic abuse are able to roll up and be terrific parents, despite what's happening. See what I'm saying? Because it's not a, it's not a mental illness. It's a normative reaction to this. But even with that hypervigilance, there's a lot of talk about how nice survivors of narcissistic abuse are. We recently did an Instagram live about this and it was just me sort of yammering on about something I'd heard that day. I was really struck by the strength it had in our community because we talk about empathy, empathy, empathy, and survivors. But one thing I'm really seeing in my, again, so many clients now at this point and other people telling their stories is that the empathy is almost functioning as a bit of a trauma response.

31:01Like, let me be as kind as possible. Let me be as good as possible. And so it gets very confusing for you. Like, am I empathic? Am I trying to survive? And is my empathy literally like this, this trauma is a survival response to try to like, it's almost like that fawn response. We talk about that fawn trauma response where I am going to be what this, this harmful person needs me to be so I can win them over and I will be okay. Right. So, and then after that though, there's shame. Why was I so nice to this person. They were terrible to me. Like what's wrong with me? And something I really try to focus on with survivors is to say this empathic, responsive, compassionate part of you is beautiful.

31:46We've got to heal you and not lose that. Does that make sense? So this isn't an amputation. This is very much about, we've got to keep this here, pull the shame off of it, but allow you to become more discerning. And that's the trick in doing this work with clients and for an individual who's healing themselves. Yeah, well, I mean, that analogy you just gave of it's not an amputation. That's really interesting because I think we would think that when something's that toxic and abusive, you just want to cut it out, get rid of it, move it away. But that's not what you're saying. No, and in fact, this is one of the things I really take umbrage and I'm frustrated with TikTok and places where people are giving quickie advices.

32:31It's almost as though if you have empathy for the narcissistic person, you're foolish. And absolutely not. They are in their fashion. There's something not quite right there. And they're not even anywhere close to addressing it. My goal for folks is you want to have empathy for them. And I mean, if you don't want to, I get that too, what you've been through. But if that empathy for them is something you want to maintain, yes, I still need you to disengage. can you disengage from someone and still empathize with them i believe absolutely yes wow yeah and that's and that's a hard balance for the people in your life that love you to see that because it can be really really challenging to see someone you love feel empathy to someone who's hurt them really badly correct and it's also even for yourself and this is where it can bring up complicated emotions like pity and guilt right and i try and again the work of healing is that pity is that these mechanisms inside of you that attend and attune and care about other human beings are still working, which we want those to always remain online, but that you ensuring that you pull yourself back from a harmful situation, the world needs you.

33:42We need your whole you, not the version that you had to create to remain in this toxic relationship. And that balancing act of retaining empathy when you've been so hurt by someone, that's some of the hardest work of healing. I see people do it every day and it's really quite beautiful, but a lot of them think, have I become a bad person because I'm so angry at this person? And in fact, a big point I bring up in the book, and I'm going to sort of jump ahead here is I actually don't know that forgiveness always has a place in these relationships. And this is a complicated conversation. A lot of people say forgiveness is all good.

34:15And I'm like, slow the no, no, stop the presses. It's absolutely not. And there's a whole body of scientific research that suggests that repeatedly forgiving a repeat perpetrator actually harms the forgiver. There's no win in that. And so in what way in it lowers their wellbeing, it can result in negative mood symptoms. I mean, of course you keep doing, you keep doing this because I think forgiveness is, is a very personal decision, but it's also not a necessary one to heal. And I think that the message a lot of people get is, well, if you're going to, if you don't forgive them, you're never going to heal the hell you're not.

34:50And I'm going to be very frank with you, Jay, there's some narcissistic people who harmed me immeasurably. I don't forgive them and I heal just fine. It comes back to the, you can't just say the cliches to people and hope they'll move on and be okay with it. And it can be really hard for that individual to again either rise or lower themselves down to either of those like i know someone who's been through something recently who's dealing with it with empathy and i know for them their friends and family are like how can you be empathetic to this person and so they're dealing with it that way or you'd have the opposite in your case where you're saying i actually don't want to be empathetic towards them i don't want to forgive them and your family is saying well you should be but i do i since here's where it gets interesting i empathize with them yes i don't forgive them.

35:35Right. Okay. So you're encouraging empathy. So we can maintain those two states simultaneously. And I think that again, one of the big exercises in the book, and I think it might be one of the most important ones, is something I've been doing with clients for a long time, which is a multiple truths exercise. Because it's so easy to say, write all the terrible stuff. And I do tell people to record all the terrible stuff. But I said, like, let's just be, I want you to write everything you feel for this person. And a person might write, this is my mother. I hate her. She had a tough backstory. She was terrible to us as children.

36:05She lives alone. I feel sorry for her. I wish she would change. I know she won't change. This is literally the stream of consciousness for a survivor. You look at that and right there it's manifest why survivors are so confused. But I absolutely believe, and not everyone does. Some people say I have no empathy for this person, but I think it's quite possible. And this is where everyone say, no, that's not possible. If you empathize with them, you'd forgive them. I say, I understand why they are the way they are. I even kind of understand why they did what they did. What they did was unforgivable.

36:38And so I do, I wish them no ill will. In fact, if good things happen to them, so be it. If bad things happen to them, so be it. So there's a mild indifference to it, but it wouldn't be a loss. I mean, I don't think, again, there's so many forms of empathy and empathy is its own complicated conversation. but I don't think that the not forgiving is a lack of empathy because forgiveness really reflects the harm it's done to us and people say no no no it's a gift for you too I'm like yeah and I'm not giving them this gift because I know they would do it again if I let this person back in they would do it again I love that distinction between empathy and forgiveness really important to understand another word that a whole chapter is dedicated to radical acceptance define that for us so that we can understand how that's used because again even looking at the difference between empathy and forgiveness it's so interesting to me just how subtle and specific healing looks like as opposed to this almost abstract journey that's often painted of healing being like you move from this stage to here where it's you know right yeah so so radical acceptance is, I have to say there's one, there's two, probably two essential ingredients to healing.

37:53You're going to go through radical acceptance. You're going to go through grief. And then it's sort of people are going to go on different paths. But radical acceptance is the absolute acceptance that these patterns are not, this person's behavior is not going to change, at least not significantly enough to make this into a healthy relationship, that this behavior affected you. And as long as you're in the purview of this behavior, as long as they keep doing this to you, it will keep hurting you. Because some people have said to me, they say, I radically accepted. They're not going to change. How come when they say these things to me, it still bothers me.

38:21I'm like, cause it's hurting you. It's still hurtful just because you understand why it's coming out of them. You're, you didn't just become a piece of concrete. Like you still have a soul and a heart and a psyche that can be hurt. So some people I think thought radical acceptance was like a magic pill that if I take this, the narcissistic person will never bother me again. And so all of But the key element of it is this is not going to change. And all decisions from that point forward have to be made on that basis. By definition, narcissism is, like I said, a maladaptive personality style, but it's also a rigid personality style.

38:59The less healthy the personality, the less flexible that it is. So very healthy people have extraordinarily flexible personalities. So the core of mental health is flexibility. It's almost like physical health, right? A person who's physically healthy has a lot of flexibility in their muscles and joints. A mentally healthy person has a lot of flexibility in their psyche. How do we define flexibility in our psyche? I would say it's an adaptability. It is a self-awareness and awareness of others. It's the ability to engage in novel problem solving and not get stuck on a singular solution. It's the capacity to be able to self-regulate and to self-soothe.

39:36Those are some of the things I'd file into that sort of that flexibility. I'm not just saying it's like, sure, I'll go anywhere you want. I'm not saying it's the I'm game for anything. But when there's disappointment, there's the capacity to cope with it. It's a lot of coping, a lot of resilience is in that flexibility piece, right? That is the core of health. I've worked with people who've survived severe trauma. It's ice, but the ones who really are standing in a different way, it's that flexibility, right? And you think about it. If a tree is flexible, it'll bend with the wind. If it's not, it's going to snap if the wind is too hard.

40:11That would really be the best sort of an analogy. So narcissism is this sort of maladaptive, rigid style. There's very little self-reflective capacity for the narcissistic person, very little self-awareness for the narcissistic person, and very little awareness of the people around them. There is little motivation to change. Most grandiose narcissists subjectively think of themselves as great people. If you ask them, they'll say, I'm a great guy. Like, I'll help anyone. I'll do anything for anyone. I'm just a cool person. They believe it. Having just cheated on their girlfriend two nights before, that they're able to maintain what almost feels like a delusional self schema.

40:50Those things are not amenable to change. And again, the nice thing about being an old lady is I've been doing this so long that I've seen cases 15, 20 years. And when I tell you that there's been some interesting things they've learned about themselves. In some cases, they had co-occurring conditions. Addiction is a great example. The addiction is managed, like they've been sober for many years, but that core personality, they are definitely not fit for an intimate relationship, at least not one where someone's not going to get hurt. So that radical acceptance of the all of it, that moment is the penny drop moment because now people see the path forward very differently.

41:29This is no longer once the kids grow up, it's going to get easier. This is no longer when he gets the promotion, things are going to get better. This is no longer when the grandkids come, my parents is going to calm down. This is, this is it. And I've sat with many clients and said, I'm going to put something to you. And I'm going to say, if I were to tell you, this is it, this is never going to change. How would that affect the decisions you make? Most clients will say, can I tell you next week? Cause that's a lot to take in. But the challenge with radical acceptance, Jay, is that I wish I could say it's, oh, and the light comes in the window.

42:04You know, a couple of things is that Radical acceptance doesn't mean you're signing off on this. It doesn't mean you're giving into it. It doesn't mean you're agreeing with it. It's not that. It is you're seeing it absolutely and painfully clearly. And you know what happens after you painfully and radically see something? The grief comes over you like a tsunami because this is your mom. The mom, you always thought one day we're going to have the moment. Or your dad where you're like, one day they're going to get me. or the partner, we're like, we are going to grow old together and it's going to be okay.

42:38You're giving up a narrative. You're giving up a hope. You're giving up a life story. You're giving up things you held onto since you were a child. That's devastation. And I tell folks, now we're going to hold on tight because grief is the most human of experiences. There's, it's one of the other than life, other than being born and dying. I don't know of any other universal human experience other than grief. All human beings lose, right? We lose something or someone and we all have a very similar experience internally. We grieve and that's why we have rituals, right? But ultimately we go through a period of grief.

43:16And I think in this modern age, we think we're better than grief. We think we can soldier through, oh, I can make my grief go like this. Nobody gets to make their grief go quicker, right? Grief is grief. And that grief actually leads people, Jay, to say, okay, this feels terrible. Maybe I should go back into the relationship. Maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I'm not seeing this clearly. Maybe I'm the problem. Maybe I'm the narcissist. And so the holding on during the grief, understanding what's happening within you, that the loss isn't just, I'm not talking to my partner anymore, or I'm distanced from my mother, or I'm getting a divorce.

43:54But the grief is how much of yourself you lost in this relationship when people have to dive into that sometimes i'll say i'm kind of glad they're gone but oh what what just happened to me yeah yeah it's the grief of the life you once had or you thought you were gonna have or you could have the grief of the loss of the person that you lost while you dissolved into this relationship and and i've seen that from the people i know not people i would say these are people that i know in my life but i've seen just that dissolving of one's identity like completely clueless even if they've disengaged to i don't know who i am anymore and i don't know what to do anymore and i don't know whether i was confident or whether i was bubbly or whether i was extra or intro like i just don't know yep and what's the first step when you're feeling i don't know what where do you where's where's the starting point parking shouldn't slow you down.

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45:38We've been made to believe that saying yes is a good thing, but I've realized there's a big difference between doing it intentionally and doing it unintentionally. isopure protein helps you focus on more of what matters like feeling your best every day with great tasting nutrition that's high protein and also low carb if you need that isopure fits seamlessly into your lifestyle and that's why i've added it to my daily routine i use isopure unflavored protein and recipes like pasta sauce and guacamole during the week with 25 grams of ultra-filtered protein and zero carbs plus 20 vitamins and minerals, you can boost nearly any recipe without changing the taste of your favorite foods.

46:19I've already restocked four times because I add the IsoPure Unflavored to everything. You can try the IsoPure Vanilla to blend 25 grams of protein into your smoothies or your oatmeal, or check out IsoPure Clear Protein Water with 15 grams of protein, which supports hydration with electrolytes and a light berry flavor. Enjoy more of what matters today at isipyourprotein.com and get 20 % off your order when you use code MINES20 at checkout. I tell folks we're taking you back to basics and it's little things like I'll say three times a day. Set a little timer if you want. I want you to just, when that little notification comes up, I want you to stop and say, how do I feel right now?

47:00Am I cold? Am I hot? Am I hungry? Am I thirsty? Like physiological functions. figure out where you want your thermostat and move it and see like oh i i'm feeling 16 68 this is nice people don't even know that i'll say what do you want on your pizza you'd be amazed how many people are flummoxed by that question i'll say well he always wanted what do you want on your pizza and they'll say and they'll catch themselves this isn't meant to be silly this is how even these these sort of low hanging questions become a place where a person is now being able to recreate a subjective focus. They were told for years, you can't be hungry.

47:40You just ate. You can't be cold. I'm warm. You're not tired. You got plenty of sleep. That's what they were told. So when that's done to you, not just once, but hundreds, if not thousands of times, just that initial process. and part of what I write about in the book is just you keep reorienting to yourself and you ask yourself a few times a day like what's the temperature I'm actually feeling a little bit cold and that's okay even if everyone else has a bathing suit on it's okay wow it's just bringing that person back into their body into their body because that's our most physical tangible way of knowing how we feel and because we've gone so far away from understanding how we feel that's going to be the easiest way same with what do you want on your pizza it sounds silly but it's not because it's like at all let's get these basic decisions right let's get these really amateur decisions right rather than thinking who am i what is the goal of my life like but you work up to that and when you ask people who am i like i don't know i'll say what what do you stand for tell me something that's important to you and they will really say no i've never thought in these levels i mean your focus for so many people is meaning and purpose right to me that's when we're getting into the latter stages of really this, you know, this individuation and this autonomy of what is meaningful to you?

48:57What is purposeful? I remember a client once saying to me, we're talking about meaning and purpose. And she said, are you kidding me? What's meaningful and purposeful? She said, I just want to get to a day where I don't think about them. And I said, great. Then that's, that's where it is right now. And over time, we're going to build on that, but that can feel very out of reach for people. Like in fact, in my healing program this month, it's going to be meaning and purpose month. And even I, as I construct that curriculum, I'm realizing like I want a lot of the usual conversation about meaning and purpose.

49:26I'm almost having to have the conversation point, you know, point two of what it means when you're going through this and someone who's a survivor of narcissistic abuse. But then it's also the willingness to turn to trusted others. I'm going to give you a silly example of something that happened today. I had a very problematic call today, right, with someone. And I had to put the call and speaker because someone was helping me with something in the house and I had to be, she was doing her work quietly, but it wasn't a confidential call. It was a business thing. And the call went terribly. The person was very disrespectful, very dismissive.

50:00And I've been through narcissistic views in many ways and shapes and forms in my life. So my first tendency was, am I being too sensitive? Am I being too demanding? Am I being ridiculous? That's what I was thinking. and at one point the lady who was helping me out she kind of looked at me rolled her eyes I rolled my eyes and she looked back at me and she said yeah and I got off the phone and the person who was helping with something else she had nothing to do with this call and I closed my eyes and the person said the person in the room with me said yeesh that was absolutely ridiculous and I looked at her and I said say more and she said I can't believe how dismissive that person she didn't even do the basic.

50:40And Jay, I felt whole because my inner experience, which I still doubt after all these years, and I've come a long way, but my inner experience, this person outside of me who I know cares about me said, it wasn't okay how she talked to you. And each time that happens, we have a micro adjustment of that was on point. I read that situation correctly. And then I was was emboldened to make a stronger decision and decide not to go into, to do what this person was asking me to do was like a speaking thing. And I'm like, no, I don't want to do that. But that other person's presence, having that safe space, and this is so big part of the healing then becomes building up safe, validating anti-gas lights, as I call them in your life.

51:29People who see you and say, that wasn't okay. Or are you okay? Or that was disrespectful. They did not speak nicely to you, whatever it is. Most survivors are so used to being spoken to badly. They're like, well, that's a business as usual. But to have that, this is why people go into therapy. And so then I was able to take the much bolder leap of, no, I'm actually going to end up going to the other meeting. But thanks. I don't know that I would have had that kind of courage. This is what healing is. You build up those people, even if it's one or two people, giving yourself permission to put, I call it the 90-10 inversion.

52:04most of us put 90 % of ourselves into our most toxic relationships and 10 % into the giving reciprocal loving ones that run easily I said flip the math I want 90 % into those good relationships and phone it into the toxic ones yeah that's so true and and it's it's interesting because I think that kind of answers the next question I was gonna ask but this idea of I think when someone's going through that healing journey they're almost oscillating between like what did I know myself again. Oh, I don't know who I am anymore. I feel like I know what I want on pizza. Oh my gosh, I have no idea. You know, so I feel like they go through this.

52:40What, I think that partly answers that you need these people in your life who are constantly reminding you. And as you said, anti-gaslighting you, what else can someone do when they're kind of oscillating between that? I think I'm making progress. I'm not sure anymore. I think I'm making progress. I'm lost again. How do you, what do you find in that period? Embrace the oscillation, right? Because it is, it's calibration, right? You're, you're sort of, it's like a child wobbly on their feet when they're learning to walk. You're, you're learning this again. And so that wobbliness is, it's the, it's their internalized voice and your individuated self kind of having a little bit of an argument and sort of view that, that part of you that's trying to individuate, like say you got this.

53:24And that's an old voice. And that old, we can just sort of say, you know, you're, you're actually not welcome here anymore. Like you could just step out. thank you. And the, but it's the individuated voice and the internalized, the narcissistic internalized, the gaslighted and internalized voice. And they're, they're going, they're still fighting it out. And we feel as though, am I, aren't I just like today, anyone watching that call? I mean, but it said, this was not okay. And the, the person was almost like the emperor's not wearing any clothes, right? That this person was saying, this emperor is naked, go away, Romany go away.

53:58And so I think that that initially we need those voices a lot more. And there'll still be times when we are, we will talk, cause I think there's certain trigger situations that kind of remain pretty consistent for survivors for a long, long time. We do hold it internally. And we were told to Jay, many survivors are told they're uppity. If they want to achieve a goal, do you really think you're going to pull that off? Like, I think you're reaching a little too high. So they were minimized and trivialized for wanting to do something that they still hear that inner voice of, don't be ridiculous, you're never going to be able to do that.

54:33And they make that voice their own instead of trying to learn like that, kind of, that was an unwanted visitor. So let's see if you can sort of treat it that way. And we can even think about, if you look at trauma theory, we talk about the protector, persecutor kind of a model, that the persecuting voice in a strange way is doing this really messed up way of keeping you safe because it's telling you like, in essence, it's the, that persecuting voice is, that voice is telling you you're going to fail so you don't try. and when you were in the narcissistic relationship and you failed, they would humiliate and shame you, right?

55:07Or tell you it was going to happen. But if you can say that, okay, I see what you're trying to do, persecuting voice. I'll be fine if this doesn't go well because it'll be on my terms. And if you really have done radical acceptance, even when the narcissistic person rolls their eyes and says, oh, big surprise, you have to keep coming back to, this is a them thing. This is not a me thing. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt. this is a carousel that really takes a toll on people but it can be done but that oscillation starts to become a little less oscillatee the more people have these validating voices people build up what we call efficacy the the idea that they're able to do something right so the first time we able we're able to do something successfully from make a cake or change the oil in our car uh use a drill and put something in the wall the that what it does to the psyche is remarkable.

55:59So I tell survivors, keep trying new things. Because the more efficacy you build, that also helps foster individuation. So I'm like, grab the drill. If you put a few holes in the wall, but the picture goes up, you're going to feel really good about the picture going up. Try to make the difficult souffle. You may burn a few, but when it's made, great. I did try to do this with bread. I still have not successfully raised a loaf of bread. So it's my last neurotic wound, but I think that when we find some people and other people do all kinds of interesting things. I see like some folks I've worked with learned languages and they learned how to play a musical instrument.

56:34And they'll say, this feels so good because back in the day I would have been made fun of for this. Those who are able to get out will say, it's so interesting to do this. And that confidence starts jumping into other areas of their life. Yeah, I mean, it's really a rehabilitation of self-identity, self-worth, self-confidence, self-acceptance. You're almost teaching yourself to do things again in order to feel whole. Right. Absolutely. But you know what? It's interesting to use rebuild. For a lot of people, it's a build. Because if this happened to them in childhood, their individuated identity never got to form at all.

57:13Wow. So this is a build. Yeah, it's a build. It's from scratch. Dr. Romney, this is so informative. I'm thinking of so many people right now who I know are going to benefit from our conversation today because it's almost like I feel like the more and more I'm speaking to people, the more and more I hear about people dealing with this in their lives. But I want to ask you one last question. And it's this idea of can going back to that empathy point, that forgiveness point for the person who's healing from the narcissistic person for them, can the narcissistic person ever heal? Hmm. So it's a, listen, I do believe in human potentiality.

57:53I'm probably never going to bet on the psychopathic or narcissistic horse in the race, but might they at least come in the top five? Maybe. And what I mean by that is part of this is an understanding the origins of narcissism, right? Some narcissistic folks, their personality development was very much shaped by adversity, trauma, neglect, loss, chaos, attachment wounds, right? That subgroup, if they are willing humbly to engage into the work of growth, they do excellent trauma-informed work with a therapist and then get beyond the trauma-informed work and are able to reflect on how they're able to create that schema of how they're, they affect others, right?

58:43To pull, it's almost like you're pulling away, um, the, you're pulling open gates and say, there's people out there. See this thing you're doing, they're being affected. And it's really opening the schema out of how they're desperately trying to protect themselves to how other people are getting hurt. And I have, it's interesting. I, I work with a narcissistic client once for many, many years and I, I, I sort of cut back my practice and I've had one or two of them reach back and like, Oh, can I work with you? I'm like, you know, I've really kind of shut up shop, but they, you know what they said though?

59:12One, one in particular said, I am, I'm screaming at my girlfriend and I know it's not okay. Now he's still screaming at her. Not so good, but he does know, he's like, I know it's not okay. And she may leave me and I probably deserve it. And he's like, you taught me that. He's still screaming. But humility is such a big part of this. Right. And, And I honestly think the antidote to narcissism is humility. And humility means we're not perfect. We have flaws. And it's not all a fantasy. And honestly, the hardest thing for a narcissistic person to accept is that they're ordinary. You're ordinary. I'm ordinary.

59:55Everyone in this room is ordinary. And we're simultaneously special. But we're just people, right? And so for them not to be the most special person means removing the camp off the volcano, which is terrifying for them. In a way, they're almost terrified by their own rage. You need one very skilled therapist to guide someone through that journey, you know. And they have to keep showing up. And for about almost 60 % to 70 % of narcissistic folks drop out of therapy prematurely. And it usually happens when the rubber meets the road and the work starts getting really vulnerable. That's when I've lost clients.

1:00:33And so we have to go very, very gently into that forest with them. And but unfortunately, if we go too gently and we never get there, then we're sort of doing a lot of navel gazing. So it's just finding that kind of balance. And and and, you know, they can do a lot of spiritual bypassing, that kind of stuff. Like you can't just you can't aphorism your way through this. You're going to have to do this painful work face up to that vulnerability. I've seen some narcissistic people make a little bit of progress, but the way I put it is this. There's hope for them to make some progress, but the harm they've usually done to another person, usually it's not super, it's not really that fixable.

1:01:13And so many people will say, and a fear of a lot of people in narcissistic relationships is, what if they change for the next person? they're not going to change for the next person, right? What if they, what if it all changes overnight? This is not an overnight. This is years and years and years of committed work to this. Like I said, I've seen micro changes and not enough to have probably consistently affected other people's relationships. And they still, personality is like a rubber band. We can pull it out. So all of a sudden, Romani, the introvert could become Romani, the extrovert for one night only.

1:01:51And then when we get home, the rubber band will go back to its side. The narcissistic person on a good day with a good therapist might get stretched out a little bit, seem a little bit more attuned, aware, do some empathic adjacent things. But as soon as the first time stress comes into the picture, rubber band goes back to its original size. Yeah. That's what I was going to ask you as the last question that came from that was, what would you say to someone who says, I'll wait for them to change? You, then you're waiting for a bus that's never going to come. You're waiting for a submarine to show up at a bus stop, basically.

1:02:22And in the process, it's not even just as that may not come, you will lose yourself in the process. And to me, that sort of soul death, that sort of loss of self, it's just not okay. And listen, you and I both know this culturally. We both come from a culture where remaining in a marriage, no matter what the conditions are, is very much a sort of a symptom of the culture. And this is where I've probably seen it most pointedly of people who really, some folks would find a way, whether it's their spirituality or other relationships with their children or others in their community, to sort of create a meaningful space outside of that problematic relationship.

1:03:01But others, it was like watching a fruit die on the vine. And it's, to me, one of the most horrific things to witness is the potential of a human being being lost to this kind of invalidation. And I shudder to think how much potential, creative potential, knowledge, wisdom that people have held back because it's invalidated. This book is a love story to every survivor and saying to them, please, we need you. We need all of your gifts in this world because you have so many. Listen, the fact that you endured this relationship is already a gift, but all the stuff you kept behind the gate, open those gates so we can see all this beautiful stuff that you could bring into the world dr romani thank you so much the book is called it's not you identifying and healing from narcissistic people it's available right now go and grab your copy today we have just touched on the tip of the iceberg of the insights and the knowledge that's within this book please go grab your copy and if you don't already follow dr romani on instagram and youtube make sure you go and subscribe and follow and i want to see what resonates with you from this conversation so tag both of us i'd love to see if you've been affected by any of this if you know a friend or family member who's benefiting from the book i'd love to see your takeaways dr ramani thank you so much again for this very thoughtful very very insightful conversation and i love your step-by-step approach and also the ability to define and clarify things so well for us so i always feel better prepared to talk to people even who may mention it to me, friends, family members, whatever may happen and kind of guide them in the right direction towards a therapist or the support that they need.

1:04:44So thank you so much. Thank you, Jay. Thank you. Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Julie Smith on unblocking negative emotions and how to embrace difficult feelings. You've just got to be motivated every day. And if you're not, then what are you doing? And And actually, humans don't work that way. Motivation, you have to treat it like any other emotion. Some days it will be there, some days it won't. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50%, and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter, park faster.

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