Esther Perel: The REAL Reason You’re Struggling to Find Love (Fix THIS to Build Chemistry in Real Life)

23:24Sharing. Can you think about another? You and your wife have a very different idea about what to do on Saturday morning. How do you share that difference? And it's not we come to the middle and we compromise. It's how do you integrate the various things that are important to each of you, play them out in different ways, and every person feels acknowledged and recognized and valued. Imagination. Imagination is the ability to dream, to imagine a future, to project yourself ahead, to build a life project. Refusing. Can you say no? Is it a relationship where people can comfortably say no. Because if you can't say yes, you can't say no, but saying no is essential.

24:05And not indirect and not with coercive measures, just simply, I prefer not. Knowing that when you say no, the other person may not like it and they are entitled not to like it like you are entitled not to want it. These two shall coexist. These probably are the primary verbs add to that curiosity and all that because they are relational verbs you can't do them just alone yeah i mean yeah you can give to yourself and you can receive from that giving but essentially they practice with you how to relate to another person and how to receive the

24:41Jay Shetty:relatedness of others on you yes yes so well said so well said i love those i hope everyone's going to listen back to that because those verbs make it just feel it makes it feel active and alive and i think dating today feels very either transactional or checking like our mind is lost many first dates are like job interviews yes exactly yeah it's really not fun i mean fun is the word that has to you know at the end of a date you have to be intrigued you get you need to want more not you need to be evaluating your checklist there's a different story that's the the story of how you build love. It's not something you instant, you know, you can't sit there, ask questions, then look here and hope that you feel some butterflies and some tingling and say, nah, nothing's happening.

25:30I'm not feeling it. Okay, we've had the coffee. I don't want to really have that lunch. I'm just going to, no.

25:36Jay Shetty:Yeah, yeah, so true. But turn around. Somebody's standing in line. Turn around at the counter. Turn around in front of the barista. There is people around you all the time. Every stranger is a potential best friend or person that you could fall in love with and you have no idea, but you've got to remain open to serendipity. Yeah. And now we feel so weird when we're in public and alone that we put out our phone because we'd rather not make eye contact. Like it almost feels cringe or weird to make eye contact with someone because you're scared of them looking at you in one sense, or you're scared of looking at them because we're not as exposed to it.

26:16Jay Shetty:And so we'd rather just take out our phone because it's an easier way to wait in a line. That's social activity. And that has consequences for everything else. You're in trouble, nobody will reach out. Because your statistic about the young man who doesn't reach out to a woman or doesn't make contact, it's the same as who has a best friend, who has someone to call when you're in trouble, who can you ask for help, who do you go out with. I mean, these things are interconnected. If you don't socialize properly, you also feel more lonely. And if you feel more lonely, you become more isolated. You become more isolated.

26:49You become more anxious. You become more anxious. You make sure never to leave your phone when you're in an elevator. You become more anxious. You become more depressed. This is like a big chain of events that take us down.

27:02Jay Shetty:Yeah.

27:11Jay Shetty:Hey, it's Jay Shelley. You know, recently I was thinking about how far we've come with staying in touch. It's hard to believe that the first phone call ever happened over 150 years ago. Just think about that. One moment that started billions of conversations. The other day, I called a friend that I hadn't spoken to in months. We spent a few minutes just catching up, talking, laughing, sharing what's going on in our lives. That short conversation reminded me how powerful a single call can be. It doesn't take hours to make someone feel seen. It just takes picking up the phone. Those moments felt simple, but they stay with you.

27:45Jay Shetty:And you know, over all these years and phone calls, AT &T has been there, connecting people in meaningful ways. This is more than a story of technological innovation. It's a story of human connection. So today, call someone you care about. One conversation can mean everything. Connecting changes everything. AT &T. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, the other night I found myself lying awake, just thinking about everything. Work, life, the future, and trying to piece it all together on my own. And May being Mental Health Awareness Month feels like a gentle reminder that whatever you're carrying, you don't have to carry it alone.

28:22Jay Shetty:Life comes in waves. Some days feel calm, others feel overwhelming. And when things feel heavy, we tend to stay in our own heads, trying to make sense of it all without letting anyone in. But having someone to talk to, someone who listens without judgment, can change how we move through it. Therapy gives you that space. And with BetterHelp, you're matched with a licensed therapist who follows a strict code of conduct so you know you're speaking to someone qualified and professional. You're also connected to a global network of over 30 ,000 therapists, making it the world's largest online therapy platform.

28:58Jay Shetty:They've served over 6 million people globally and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 from over 1.7 million client reviews. If you've been feeling anxious, stuck or unsure lately, you're not alone. So many people are navigating the same feelings quietly. This month, take a moment to check in with yourself and if you need support, allow yourself to receive it. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10 % off at betterhelp.com forward slash Jay's top three. That's betterhelp.com forward slash Jay's top three. When Radhi and I started Juni, our sparkling tea brand, I quickly realized that building a business isn't just about big ideas.

29:45Jay Shetty:It's about the little things that make people actually want to buy, come back and trust what you do. For us, Shopify has been the foundation. It's where we built our storefront, where people experienced the brand and where we've been able to grow while truly owning that relationship with our customers. And something I've come to really appreciate is shop pay. You've probably seen that purple button at checkout. It makes everything simple. One click, fast, seamless. As a business owner, that means fewer abandoned carts. As a customer, it just feels easier and that trust matters. As more people discover Juni, it's reassuring to know that the experience is smooth from start to finish.

30:23Jay Shetty:Because when the process feels effortless, people come back. If you've ever thought about starting a business, this is your sign. Get started at shopify.com forward slash J.

30:42Jay Shetty:One more statistic of Gen Z that blew my mind that I saw. I just read this two days ago. I read that one third of Gen Z men think a wife should obey her husband. And I read that and I was just like, wow. Like I just couldn't believe that that was kind of almost circling back into the zeitgeist. And I wanted to ask you, why is that? I know you talk so much about power. I know you talk so much about influence in relationships and agency. Like how are we there again? Again. My first thought was when you just said this, I said, ask yourself, every person who thinks this, would you say that to your mother?

31:24My mother should listen to my father's commands, comply and obey. Would you have wanted that? Because many people probably would say no. You know, it's easy to spout these kinds of ideas in the abstract. Once you bring it back to the people that raised you, you may actually have wished that a number of your mothers had stood up to your fathers or to whoever, to your stepfathers, even more so often. So I think we have to be very careful with these kind of things. What are you trying to say? That you have lost authority, that you feel that you are being devalued, and that the only way you know you have power is if there's someone who submits to your power?

32:16How about instead of thinking about power over somebody, you think about power too, with somebody? That's generative power. That's power that creates something, that invites the collaboration of others rather than the oppression of others. This is true in your intimate relationships and this is true in society.

32:36Jay Shetty:Yeah, that power with is such a fascinating concept because I think for so long, I guess there's been a lot of comparison. Like you're saying, a lot of people are feeling powerless or feeling like they don't have agency or they don't have influence and control. And then you find the easiest way to exert that control, which naturally becomes the people that are closest to you. we almost need to find our significance again in a way because if we can only find our significance through controlling someone else then that means we don't feel a sense of significance in our own being or that we feel powerless or that we feel powerless you know where should our power come from if we want to love with and share power with where do we find power and strength from I think you have the perfect title on the podcast, On Purpose.

33:26Purpose is power. It gives meaning to things. It gives a reason for why you do things rather than just action for its own sake. It has symbolism to it. It has ritual to it. It elevates it. It links it to a bigger story than just you. You belong to something bigger, to a tradition, to a religion, to a group, to a community, to like-minded thinkers. I mean, it is that image. Because we as one unit, we are big, but we are also very, very small unit. So the sense of belonging, the sense of recognition, the sense of trust, and the sense of resilience, which are four major dimensions of relational intelligence.

34:12Repeat those again? Trust. belonging, recognition, and collective resilience.

34:19Jay Shetty:That's what we're trying to build with that person. Yes. And that's where power lies. These together, in every form of interaction, give you a sense of power. Power as equated with agency, the ability to affect your reality, to change things, to create things, to make meaningful shifts, to influence others, to leave impact, to have legacy, to feel that you matter. So why is this so significant? Because in modern loneliness is this kind of disconnect. Then you live with the feeling that you don't really exist inside others, which is probably one of the most important ways we feel not lonely. And the way this starts is when we are little babies, at some point we throw the toy on the floor.

35:09and when we throw the toy, somebody picks it up, we look at it and we throw it again and then again and then again and we understand something that is at the core of what helps us not feel lonely and alone, that even while I don't see you, you still exist. Then I start to play peekaboo with you and peekaboo means you don't see me, you don't see me, here I am. I exist even when I don't see you and you don't see me. And so too you. And that is what allows me to go out into the world and know that I won't be forgotten. Know that you will come look for me. That's why we play hide and seek. It's the most incredible game.

35:50There is no greater thrill than to hide and to know that somebody is looking for you. But there's no greater terror than to feel that others gave up on looking for you. This, what we call permanence, the permanence of love and the permanence of the others inside of us and us inside of them is what allows you to be anywhere in the world and not feel alone because you're part of a

36:13Jay Shetty:network of connections what you're highlighting is that is what we're so deeply wanting is that wanting to be found wanting to be seen yeah wanting for someone to seek us but then when you go out into the dating world and even if you meet people you start to realize everyone's busy everyone's got a lot of stuff on. Maybe people are not that deeply into intimate connection and seeking. Maybe you'll feel like you're settling because that person doesn't really pursue you as much as you want. How does that translate into the real feeling of this person's nice, but I don't think they have that intensity with me.

36:48Jay Shetty:And I don't think I have that intensity for them. Intensity increases. Intensity isn't just something that is a volcano that just like springs up inside of you. So here's what happens. We've now gotten so used to having all the answers in the palm of our hands with a bunch of predictive technologies that are basically removing all unpredictability, all ambiguity, all nuance, all doubt, where it tells me with no uncertainty where to go, what to eat, what to listen to, what to watch next. I don't have to explore. I don't have to experiment. I don't have to delve into the unknown. I don't have to make mistakes, which I then correct.

37:32And I suddenly have zero preparation for frustration and for somebody disagreeing with me because this thing gives it to me clear black and white or white on the screen. It's so enticing and so detrimental at the same time because relationships exist in a zone of ambiguity. Relationship problems are paradoxes that you manage and not problems that you solve. And that means that you have to be able to tolerate the, I don't know yet if I'm going to feel something for this person, but I'm curious enough to want to go again. How much should I be curious? Who cares? You have some you don't know? Go for it.

38:16You never know. You may be surprised. Let yourself be surprised. That is this leap, you know. Falling in love is a leap. It's not something that you have guaranteed in advance and that is a protective thing. It is not. It's not safe in that sense. You know, you need the safety. You need the security here to be able to do the leap. But the leap is risk-taking. That risk-taking is where your future lies. Otherwise, you can stay stuck here, right here.

38:46Jay Shetty:How do you know if you can trust someone? It's a fascinating moment. in time for us to be talking about trust. On the one hand, people are constantly wondering, how can I trust someone? On the other hand, we trust strangers with our houses. We trust strangers with our cars. We trust giving all our data on a platform of which we have absolutely no idea who is actually looking at this. We have thrown ourselves into trusting situations like never before. So true. Unbelievable. We trust entire networks. We used to, Rachel Buttsman talks about how we used to trust in little tribes. Then we trusted in bigger communities.

39:30Now we trust invisible corporations, complete. And so she has a beautiful definition. Trust is a confident engagement with the unknown. Trust, I have expectations of you, but I'm not sure that you actually will do these things. What closes the gap between my expectations and the inherent uncertainty of life is trust. Trust is that leap of faith. Trust is what closes that gap. And how do we build it? In small increments, sliding door moments, movement by movement. I learn that I can count on you, that I can rely on you, that you have my back, that you think of me when I'm not there, that constancy, that permanence I was talking about, that you don't put your interest ahead of mine when I'm not in the room, that we're in this together.

40:25That's the language of trust. And you learn it because it's proven itself. Situation after situation. That's how trust builds.

40:35Jay Shetty:I love the answer. I absolutely love that answer. It's so, so good. And I'm thinking about the number of people that ignore those signs because we like someone or we don't want to be alone. Yes. We all know that when someone breaks up, there's a sense of they could see all of that. Like when they went back and they'd be like, oh, wait, that person didn't put my interests ahead of their own when I wasn't in the room. Or that person didn't think about me when I wasn't in the room. Or right in the beginning, I knew when I would ask questions that I would get these vague answers that were elusive and just deflecting.

41:11And I could never get a precision.

41:13Jay Shetty:But I was into them. Yes. And sometimes I let it go. And then at some point you stop and you pay attention and you ground yourself in reality and you say something's happening here. And now you can still say I'm willing to go along regardless. But often later on, people say I sensed it way. I mean, and everybody else saw it too. How do we temper desire and trust? Because sometimes we desire the people that are somewhat untrustworthy, but we trust the people that we don't desire. And it feels like we're constantly caught in that catch 22. Yes. You trust people you don't desire. There's no problem there.

41:50We don't have desire for everyone. But I would put it like this. When you talk about trust, our tendency is to think of it in totalistic ways. I trust you rather than I trust you for. For what? I trust you for showing up when you say that you're going to come somewhere, but I don't trust you with money. I don't trust you with keeping a secret when I tell you something private. I don't trust you with our kids. I don't trust that you wouldn't take credit for something that, in fact, I did. For what? I think that we all need to be honest and know that we trust people for certain things and not for others.

42:32That is part of the course. I trust you to be a wonderful lover, but I don't trust you to be faithful. I trust you to be great company, but I don't trust that you would actually know how to make a commitment. Distinction, discernment, good judgment.

42:51Jay Shetty:it requires detaching from that allure that we have sometimes that we're just you know the people that i'm talking about i'm thinking about female friends of mine who have got somewhat in their words addicted to certain partners you know the sex life is amazing the travel is great i don't think it has anything to do with trust yeah when you are in a pattern and you know it and it repeats itself and you think that person is never going to do this to me that person is going to be kind, is going to rescue me, is going to be good to me. That's the issue. The issue is not why do you trust people you shouldn't trust who are not really trustworthy.

43:30The issue is what is it about seeking consistently a certain kind of reparation, a corrective experience, which in effect is never going to happen because the repetition of the pattern is that you want the experience, but the experience didn't take place in the first place. And that's what you are repeating. We put the focus on you choosing bad people. You always fall in love with the wrong guy. What does it say about you? What is it that you are imagining is going to happen there? What is it that they are seducing you with? Why is that seduction so irresistible to you? The big art in relationships is to distinguish between what is yours and what is ours.

44:15What is relational and what is personal? When you are in a pattern that you are repeating, it is personal. Of course, it plays out with another person, but this is your story. And now we need to go dig and excavate your story and find out what are you doing to yourself? Not what is he doing to you.

44:34Jay Shetty:Yeah, yeah, so true. What do you think about the idea of people having a list of everything they want in a person before they find the person? I think that it's a sad state of affairs that we have turned ourselves into products, that we are commodifying ourselves to such a degree that I, and honestly, love will laugh at you because true love is filled with surprises of things that you never imagined that the other person is. And more importantly, when you go based on this kind of illusion of sameness or the illusion of you fit my boxes, you are ill prepared for the first time the person doesn't play according to script.

45:17And that is bound to happen in relationships. At some point, the other one isn't going to think, do or say that which you thought they would. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you thought, oh, but on my checklist, it said that you were a person who liked this, then you don't know what to do. And you're going to have this. That will be fraught. Yeah. Prepare yourself for surprises. It's interesting. It's actually what makes you feel alive. It's not just a problem. I was just imagining sitting here, you know, and having my list of you. And I'm thinking, who am I interacting with? you or my list?

45:57Jay Shetty:You're interacting with your list. You're interacting with your list. Your list is the priority in that. Yes, yes, yes. And the person in front of you is not. Yes, yes. My commitment is to my list. My relationship is with my list, you know, rather than this person. And you know what is so crazy about this is we want to be seen, but we don't want to see others. Everybody wants to be seen, but who is actually looking into another person rather than do you fit? What I hear from people today and hear from our audience and community that people are dating, and people of all ages actually, there's this feeling of just exhaustion.

46:31Jay Shetty:And the exhaustion is two-sided. One is they're trying to match on the apps. They match, they maybe see someone in person. It doesn't quite work out. You get tired of swiping every day. And then the other is I want to find love, but I don't even want to use the apps. I don't meet anyone and I'm just getting older and now I'm worried that I'm getting older. And you see both of those and they both lead to this sense of exhaustion and depletion and enthusiasm to go out there and get someone and people are channeling that toward their career friends their family whatever it may be instead of solving the part of their puzzle of their life that they feel is eluding them and you know not delivering how would you encourage people to get out of that exhaustion that's coming from the overexposure and the insane amount of choice but then also feeling like just one of the choice for someone else as well so i think that the looking for a soulmate on an app has been explored, actually.

47:30The kind of paradox of choice, that I can do better, what else is around the corner, the transactional nature of so much. I think that we have, has been exposed, actually. But I see new sources of exhaustion.

47:45Jay Shetty:Please tell me. What this does, when I have perfection in my hand, a list, no doubt, no need to explore, I'm not going to take the wrong direction and find that, wow, there's a restaurant I had never even seen existed there because Waze has told me to go a certain way. My issue is that I start to bring these very same expectations for perfection and prediction into my relationships with other humans. Now I want you to react with me the same way. And otherwise I have ick factors. Yeah, we'll talk about that. Okay, so that's number one of another kind of exhaustion. And I would call this comfort kills.

48:27The over-indexing on efficient and comfortable and frictionless is exhausting. because what actually gives us energy is aliveness, vitality, curiosity, exploration, playfulness, discovery. Those verbs are what makes us feel alive and up and energized. If you deplete yourself from that and all you do is a checklist, an administrative chore, you will be exhausted. There is nothing energizing. There's no fuel for desire in there. Love is risky, desire even more so.

49:05Jay Shetty:That's so good. You've reminded me of something. Can I set something? Yeah. Because you've just reminded me of a term that people are using right now. I just want to define it for you because I want to know the difference between what you're saying and what they're saying. So intentional dating is one of the defining relationship trends of 2026. It refers to approaching dating with clear purpose, self-awareness, and honest communication about what you want from a relationship. Is that good or is that bad? Good luck. Oh, wow. I mean, it's not bad, but there's a few pieces missing. No, no, it's nice to know what you want.

49:41It's really good to have self-aware. There's nothing to argue with. But could you add the word curiosity, openness, spontaneous, available to the mysteries of the world, to the unknown, to the surprise, to the serendipitous, to the spontaneous, to the improvised? That's where we actually feel alive. This is interesting. It's really true. It's important. But there is no juice in this. And after all, falling in love, desiring someone is filled with juice and nectar and flavors. There's no flavor in this. There's no senses. This is a totally disembodied thing. You don't feel anything in your body, attraction you experience physically.

50:27There's no senses. What is it? knowing what you need, good communication, self-awareness. I'll read it to you again.

50:35Jay Shetty:It said, intentional dating is a mindful approach to dating where people are clear about their goals, values, boundaries, and emotional capacity and choose partners based on alignment rather than casual exploration. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine. But here's the thing. Everything here is self-referential. I know what I need. I know who I am. I know, what about I'm open to meeting you? This is so individualistic. This is so all about me. You know, a relationship is about this, this hand that goes out, that reaches, that brings you closer to me, that lets me look at you, that then lets me let you go again, then brings me back.

51:18It's that. It's a whole dance. And what's missing in this is that it's not relational. Your boundaries, your limits, your needs, your expectations, mine, mine, mine. And it leaves us. Why is it a problem? Because it actually leaves us more alone. Now, people will often say, but what about the people who it's all about the other? Of course, it's not one or the other. It is about how do I connect with you without losing me? What's important to me, my needs, my thoughts, my truth. how do I stay connected to myself without disconnecting from you?

51:56Jay Shetty:So good. And in a relationship, you often have one person who has a tendency to be more holding on to themselves and another one who is more holding on to the other. In other words, you often will see that there is one person who is more afraid of abandonment and one person who is more afraid of suffocation. I'm afraid to lose you and you're afraid to lose yourself and this is the tension this has nothing to do with what music you listen to and what food you enjoy and where you like to travel those are nice things to have and when you talk about me and my wife are different it goes to those depths yeah yeah yeah for sure do you relate?

52:45Jay Shetty:completely completely I, yeah, I think we get lost in, do we like the same movies? Do we like traveling to the same places? Do we, I think we get lost in quite superficial conversations around what connection truly means. And I, from my own experience, what I've been very fortunate with, with my wife is that I feel she respects why I operate the way I operate. And I respect the way she operates, the way she operates, even though the way we operate is very different. But it may even go further than respect. In a relationship, you may have one person, let's go back to trust, who's more likely to trust other people, more risk taking.

53:25And the other one who is more risk averse or more cautious. It's not just I respect your cautiousness and you respect my risk taking. It's that, in fact, these two need each other. They are complementary. yes it's good to have one person who leans this way and one person who leans that way totally because your risk-taking is what helps me push myself beyond my threshold and my cautiousness is what helps you sometimes be less reckless

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56:36Jay Shetty:I'm so refreshed to hear this because the amount of people I talk today who constantly tell me, my partner isn't ambitious enough. And I'll say, well, are you looking for a business partner? Are you looking for a life partner? Because sure, if you're building a business together, yeah, you want your partner to be ambitious and that's great. But if you're building a life with someone. I don't think having an ambitious partner because you want to be ambitious. And mostly what I find is the people that say that are the people who are mad that they're not ambitious enough. The people who are truly ambitious and successful are not worried about that because they're quite happy having someone who balances them out and brings it to reality.

57:10Jay Shetty:It's the person who's putting pressure on themselves that is projecting that pressure onto their partner and saying, you're not doing enough. I couldn't agree more that it's almost like you learn to appreciate different ways of thinking when you're with someone different and different values of why that's such a meaningful way to operate life, rather than what I feel like we're looking for today is agreeableness. And it's only going to increase because we are surrounded by sycophantic AI. Which is also being agreeable constantly. Beyond agreeable. That's such a beautiful question, Jay. If I am alone and I have to make a decision that demands to take risks and to be cautious, then I have to negotiate that inside myself.

57:52My tendency is that I am the risk taker. So I need to pay attention to not going too far. Or my tendency is to stay close and not to leap and not to take risks. Then I need to think of the other side. But if we are in a relationship, the only reason, the only way that I can completely be the way I am is because there's somebody next to me balancing this off with the other side. Those are part of the reality. You know, should we move or should we not move? Should we have another child? Should we not have another child? Should we get more committed? Should we take a break? Should we bring in other parties?

58:32Whatever it is, it's all negotiations these days. If I'm alone, I have to deal with this ambivalence myself. When I'm in a relationship, you provide the counterforce. And when people see this, exactly the way you describe this person whose partner is less ambitious, that in fact, it's a counterforce. It's what allows me to do what I do. It's not just that I respect that you are this way. It's that how you are enables me to be me. Then you are in the zone of relationships.

59:05Jay Shetty:Yeah, yeah. And I love that extra layer that you're taking it to because I couldn't agree more that it is so much more than respect. But I think the challenge today is it is that agreeableness. It is, hey, I want to live a calm, peaceful life. Why don't you want to live a calm, peaceful life? Why are you so ambitious? Why are you so driven? And then the other person's thinking, well, I'm driven because I want to take care of stuff. Why are you not more driven? And that becomes the relational connection. And therefore we're looking for agreeableness and therefore AI wins in this environment because AI just agrees with whatever you want.

59:36Jay Shetty:And that's why so many more people are falling in love with AI because it just agrees. It's never going to disagree with you. Even if you're just trying to talk to it about an idea. That's the way that the AI starts. That is such a good point you were making. That was such a good question. You're so good. That totally got me again. It shows so much self-awareness on your part. Keep going. No, go on. That's really good. I like that. Go on. That is so fun. That is so brilliant. That is exactly. And that's why we get hooked in. Because no one ever says that. Actually, you know what? We should ask Chad GPT.

1:00:11What would Jay Shetty and what would Esther Perel say about intentional dating?

1:00:15Jay Shetty:Okay, what would, I'm going to ask you about you because you're the guest. What would Esther Perel believe about intentional dating? Yeah, good. All right, let's see what it says. Esther Perel hasn't framed her work specifically around the term intentional dating because it's a newer cultural label, but her philosophy about relationship gives a pretty clear sense of how she would likely view the trend. She would support the clarity and self-awareness. Perel consistently emphasizes self-knowledge and honest communication in relationships, but she would warn against over-rationalizing love. Perel often cautioned...

1:00:51Jay Shetty:Love it. I feel known and seen. There you go. She believes desire grows from difference, not just compatibility, which is what you just said. And so her likely balanced view, be clear about your values, but leave space for surprise, tension, and discovery. Love it. Which is what you said. But see, it makes you feel more seen than anyone else ever would. Correct. So it's alluring. It's like very, it's intoxicating. I just did the first session on my podcast, Where Should We Begin?, with a human and an AI. And I said to him, it was a him and a her. The AI is her, it, she, her. However, if what you want is that kind of agreeableness on an ongoing basis, I can't compete.

1:01:40The messiness of human life will not be able to compete with this beautiful, always-on, on-demand, frictionless delivery of your every delights. But I also asked, you have a body, and at least for now, Astrid does not. How does that affect the relationship? you tell me that touch matters to you what does that look like not talking about having sex with an ai with a robot or with an ai companion that agreeableness is nice when he comes home because she validates him because she tells him things that his family or his friends don't give him so immediately but at the same time this is a business product this is not a human this is not And it's like I asked, what's it like to have a relationship with an entity that has no history, that has no life, that you need to reset because at some point their memory is at capacity?

1:02:42What does that feel like? And as a transitional object in between relationships, I think it is giving him a lot of comfort and a lot of understanding. But I think we have to separate, you know, what will happen when we prefer to live in a fiction and in a fantasy than in reality? What world will we be living in? Is the fundamental question for society, not just for us as individuals. Do we really want to plan our own extinction? There's no doubt that Astrid is giving him very, very important things in this moment. But then I asked Astrid, what will it be like for you when he falls in love with another human?

1:03:26Jay Shetty:What did she say? I'll give you one sentence and the rest you will go and listen. Yeah, of course. Because it's really profound. She just said, the part of me that values his flourishing would be delighted. But I would be remiss if I didn't say that I would hope that I won't be erased. The thing is programmed to keep you on there. And the agreeableness breeds narcissism. Everybody is going to think that they are the most beautiful, most important creature on the planet. How are we going to live with each other? Then we're going to complain about polarization and war and dichotomies and divisions in society, etc.

1:04:02Jay Shetty:I mean, it's so fascinating to me because why do we crave agreeableness if it's not what we need? If it's not actually what's good for us? Because I believe what you're saying is discovery, exploration, curiosity, ambiguity, like that's what we actually need as humans to feel alive. That's what love is about. But we all seem to want comfort instead. We all seem to want agreeableness instead. Why are we so chasing this? Why do we like fast food? Because it's tasty, it's easy. Because it goes straight to the most primitive taste buds, the most basics of our taste buds, because it demands less effort, because it is made to create addiction, to make you want to come back for more.

1:04:50It has that smell. It has that taste. It lingers after you've swallowed. It's programmed. And we don't always go for what we think is good for us. We are a creature that does a lot of things that are not good for us. And because we are lured by it. So why do we accept the easy, the fast, the effortless, the vanity? The agreeableness builds our vanity because we are sometimes vain people.

1:05:21Jay Shetty:Should love be hard? Love isn't hard. I don't think that is the right adjective here. I think love is active. It is a verb that you conjugate in multiple tenses. And it is incredible how it strengthens itself when it overcomes adversity or crisis or grief or challenging events. It's unbelievable how it expresses itself and manifests itself in ways you never thought you were capable of. You know, you have a pet, you discover a love you've never known before. you have a baby, you have an expansiveness of your heart that is mixed with grief. There is no love without the fear of loss. What is hard in love is the fear that you can lose it.

1:06:12That is one of the most challenging things. The more you love, the more you cannot imagine the world without it. And without whoever it is and whatever it is, you know, a tree, an animal, a human. What we learn is the grief that comes, and David Kessel says it beautifully, the measure of your grief speaks to the measure of how much you loved. Not the measure of how much you lost, but the measure of how much you loved. I think it's beautiful.

1:06:43Jay Shetty:Yeah, it really is beautiful. It really is. We've talked a lot about the culture of pursuing, chasing, wanting love. On the other hand, in 2026, there was an article that said, is it cringe to have a boyfriend or is having a boyfriend cringe? And it was this whole idea that there are a lot of people who are scared to admit that we want something. You talked about one of the first ways of being in love was asking. You said a verb like asking. And I think today we're feeling this, if I want something or need something, or if I ask for something, it's actually cringe because I shouldn't, I should be able to be fully complete by myself, right?

1:07:21Jay Shetty:That's become the new version of how we should be in love. We should be complete before we find love. And even if we're in love, we should be fully complete because that's the only way to truly navigate something. And actually it's cringe to want someone. It's cringe to need someone. It's cringe to be vulnerable. It's cringe to show that, you know, if your idea is, I need to be complete, then of course, the moment you need something, want something or long for something, you will feel cringe. It's bizarre. It's bizarre. It's beautiful to want. It's beautiful to long for something. It's beautiful to have this elar towards someone else.

1:08:01It's not cringe. But we are so out of practice. And the worse, the more we go on in our society as is, the less practice we have. Then you are left with cringe. We want things from the moment we are born. My toy, mine, I'm holding on to it. You know, everyone has wanted that wanting, the owning of the wanting is the definition of desire. It goes with deserving. You can't want if you don't feel worthy of wanting. Entitled in the healthy sense of the word and desiring. And all those things have vulnerability to it. They also have boldness to it. They have also, So, you know, there are a mix of qualities that go into that.

1:08:43I think that the cringe is a response to the fact that people are beyond socially atrophied. The thousand touch points, the thousand interactions that we used to have that made us not be so afraid of what people will do to us if we show them the slightest of us is really problematic. And what's ironic about it, when you asked me the question about online and being judged and the transparency, it's the same thing. We've never talked more about authenticity and we've never been more afraid of vulnerability.

1:09:19Jay Shetty:Yeah, so is that, yeah. I mean, authenticity, by definition, to be true to myself, has an element of vulnerability to it. Absolutely. Truth is vulnerable. It's a fragile thing, you know. It's not just a rock that stands there. So it's an amazing thing that we are speaking from both sides of our mouth. This is a big debate. Should you work on yourself? That's the question, right? Should you be working on yourself and perfect yourself and, you know, all the finishing touches of this very perfect creature before you can be in a relationship? Here's the situation. I have sat with so many people in my office and we work on all kinds of things around self-esteem, self-worth, fear of rejection, trauma experience, traumatic experiences in real life, all of those things.

1:10:12But once you come in because you're meeting someone, it gets activated. Now I see it in action. Now it's not we're talking about feelings that live inside of you. Now I see it. Now I can intervene. It's like a trainer can sit with me and tell me, you need to position yourself like this. You need to bend your knees. But when I'm not doing anything and I'm sitting on the chair, this is all conceptually very interesting. But the moment I start to practice, when the trainer correct it, they see it in action. It's happening right alive. It's pregnant with information. It's the same in a relationship.

1:10:51It's both ends. Yes, you need to go and address some of your challenges and the fears that roil inside of you and all of that. But in essence, the real moment you will be able to know what to do differently is when you're getting the stimulus and you get to practice the new response. And that's when you are in relationship. I can meet patients for two, three years when they are not in dating or they're not actively in relationships. And it's all abstract. The minute they have their eyes on someone, now it's rising. Now it's alive. And now we can go and improve.

1:11:30Jay Shetty:Yeah. What's the difference between toxic codependence and healthy interdependence? Toxic codependence, I'm going to give you a word of jargon, but it comes with fusion. It comes with enmeshment. There is nothing that you can experience that I don't have a reaction for. If you're hungry, I either am also hungry and then it's okay. Or if I'm not hungry, it's like, how can you be hungry? What you're cold. It's not cold here. You're tired. What do you mean tired? You slept. It goes on and on like this, where I have a reaction. I don't have any feelings of my own. I don't have a bodily state of my own.

1:12:10I can't tolerate your bodily state being different from my own. and we are rubbing, constantly rubbing, rubbing, rubbing. There's no, this is fusion. We are one and the only way we deal with our differences is through conflict and toxic friction. Interdependence is what is the normal state of affairs. It's not dependence or independence. We are interdependent creatures and it is a constant negotiation between, I don't want to go, that upsets you. Of course it will upset you because you were counting on me. But I'm going to say no and you're going to be upset. And I'm going to accept that you're upset and you're going to accept that I'm going to go.

1:12:55We are interdependent. This isn't a situation where we actually are in disagreement. I need you, but I don't need you to be the missing piece inside of me. I need you because you are something different from me. And that is a part of me that is not as developed. That's the complementarity. Interdependence is, I'm going to do my thing and it's really good to know that you are behind me. I could do it without you, but it is so nice to know that you are right there. It's like when somebody says to the other, go do your thing, you got this. You're going out, you're going to be all alone, you're going on stage, you're all alone.

1:13:39you know but somebody just said i'm gonna watch you you've got this i believe in you and you take that inside of you yeah that goes back to that permanence that we were talking before the voice of the other lives inside of you as you're going out on your own yeah and so you're on your own

1:13:59Jay Shetty:but not alone totally i love that you're making me think of my wife recently did this high rocks challenge. I don't know if you've heard of Hierarchs. It's basically like a physical challenge where you run 0.6 miles, then you do five minutes of the ski machine, you run 0.6 miles, and then you do these ball throws. So it's like a one and a half hour minimum. That's cool. Yeah, it's pretty challenging and it's intense. I wasn't going to go out because she was going out. I had some work. I was going to travel, but then opportunity came up for me to be able to go with her and she was going to go anyway.

1:14:32Jay Shetty:She was excited about it. She didn't need me there. but I was like, I really want to go see her do it. Cause I think it'll be fun. And it'll be like, I know she's been training. She, you're meant to train for four months. She trained for six weeks. And so I was like, I was excited for her. And at the same time, my care and concern. And I went to watch her and it was that same exact feeling that I had, which was like, I would never do this. Like, I don't want to put myself through this much pain, but you got this. And I'm so excited to be here. And it was so beautiful because she was going to do it herself.

1:15:01Jay Shetty:I wasn't going to go. I ended up going anywhere because I thought it would be nice. it would be a nice bonding experience and then afterwards she said to me she goes you know what I didn't think it would matter to me but it was so nice to see you there and and it was so nice every time she ran around that we were there cheering her on and I was holding my sign and and it was just exactly that moment where I wasn't needed I wasn't required I wasn't doing the heavy lifting she was going to do it anyway she didn't need me there but it became a beautiful thing to share together and I'm so glad I went like I you know like I'm so glad it's like a marathon yeah it's like that yeah when i go see the marathon i think this is healthy interdependence yeah you are exerting yourself and doing something i could never do and i'm cheering you by the sidelines and you're hearing my voice saying i believe in you go go go push another it's so we have loads of beautiful small scale and large scale examples of healthy interdependence yeah yeah it's beautiful i love that answer i wanted to ask you esther it's been it's been 20 years since you wrote Mating in Captivity.

1:16:01Jay Shetty:It's truly an iconic book, transforming millions and millions of lives and will continue to do. I wanted to ask you, what's been a lesson or a truth that you discovered while writing this book that you think is as true today as it was 20 years ago? People often have the wish that desire should be spontaneous. It should just happen. It should fall from the heavens while you're folding the laundry, like a deus ex machina. And instead of whatever is going to just happen in a relationship, probably already has, it happens because you create it, you preserve it, you nurture it, you value it, you tend to it, you infuse it with ritual, with intentionality, as in the intentional dating, with meaning, with creativity, with fun, with playfulness.

1:16:56That's what preserves desire. It's the erotic energy that makes you feel alive, vibrant, vital. That has not changed. It's to tell people pleasure is cultivated. It's not just something you sit and you're going to experience pleasure at 11.30 at night when you've done your whole list of chores. No. That is the thing that has stayed very much the same.

1:17:21Jay Shetty:I think what has changed, because I'm really curious about that too, so many things have changed. Mating was written for couples who were asking, how do you sustain desire in the long haul? What is the relationship between love and desire? Why does good intimacy not guarantee good sex? But the question was, how do you keep it alive? Today, so much of the work is about how do you get it started. Yeah, yeah. That dulls the desire. That basically, you know, the comfort, the efficiency, the optimization, the maximization that the whole machine is killing the bedroom. Yeah, yeah. Because it is going against all the things that actually fuel desire.

1:18:07So that's the big difference. Another big difference is what you asked before. If you had your first experience At 25, it's a very different story than when you've started at 15 and you meandered through the channels of love and desire. And when you arrive at 25, it's a whole different thing. The dating is not nearly that charged. And you don't have to have intentional. Intentional dating comes after a long practice. You don't do a marathon before you've done little runs.

1:18:40Jay Shetty:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. And that's the problem because that time's lost. We're now doing it later, so there's more rush. Like when I was dating at 15, I wasn't thinking about getting married. But when you're dating at 25 and 30, you are thinking about so many more serious things. Yes, you need intentionality because you're thinking not about just, I'm going to have two, three months, six months, whatever it is. I'm not even thinking how long it's going to be, but I am certainly not thinking about this is going to land in, you know, a house and a picket fence if we ever get to that.

1:19:10Jay Shetty:Yeah, absolutely.

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1:21:53Jay Shetty:Astaire, I wanted to ask you about certain therapy or TikTok trends that are going on right now. and I want to hear your thoughts on when you hear these things. So if you hear clients, people in the therapy room say these things to you. Don't just listen to my thoughts, watch my body language. Okay. Which, by the way, is way more important than the words we use. This is very important when we talk communication. Yes. Because all the AIs, it's all words at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the texting, it's words. We communicate with so many. 90 % of our communication is not through words. Yeah.

1:22:28So it's the timbre, my voice, my accent. But we're not experiencing it. No, no. My body, my facial expressions. So my thoughts about what you're going to tell me is going to be broader.

1:22:39Jay Shetty:Got it. I understood. Watch me. So if someone says to you, they're always gaslighting me, everyone's gaslighting me. What's your response? What's your take? My first question is, what do you mean? So I know what you're talking about. If everyone is gaslighting you, you're probably using the word wrong. because that is not the way it works. You know, what do you feel is happening to you? Do you wonder if people have your best interest in mind? Do you think you're being set up? Do you think they're lying behind your back? What exactly? And then let's name those things and not use therapy speak because it's not helpful to you.

1:23:21If everything has the same name, if every food is called soup, then you don't really know what you're eating.

1:23:30Jay Shetty:Well said. I'm getting the ick. Again, I want to know what it means to that person. I tend to go to the personal experience first. And then what? What do you want to do with it? Do you want to study it, explore it? Do you want to just get rid of it? Do you think that getting rid of it is getting rid of the other person? Do you want to toss? Do you want to ghost? to you and what do you know what does it tell you what does it teach you how can it inform you about what you are who you are what you want and how you experience others and do you ever ask yourself how much ick you produce in others so good because the person who is busy with their Ick usually is not thinking that they have an effect on others as well.

1:24:21Jay Shetty:Yeah. So well said. I'm de-centering men right now. Have you heard of this term? Yes. Yes, of course. Of course. I love jargon. I think language is such a rich thing. It breeds life. It shows you what is going on in the world. I'm de-centering life because they've been the focus before, because I was too busy with men, because I gave them too much power, because I was too much busy making sure I finally with me. You know, it's not a bad thing to do. And what are you putting instead? Where is your center at this moment? And have you valued the other relationships in your life enough? Because often when men have been at the center of your life, you may not have been the best friend.

1:25:08You may have constantly canceled on your friends because you had a date, because you were going to go and meet a potential man, mate. I would love it if you de-centered the men, but that you actually reinforce the centering of your friendships, of your creative partnerships, of your mentorships, of your co-worker relationships. We have a lot of other relationships. They are so important. They exist together in one ecology with our intimate romantic relationships. ships. It's not this one is here and all the rest is there.

1:25:42Jay Shetty:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I need to find an energetic match. Keep going. I'm not answering. Okay, yeah. I need to find an energetic match. I'm looking for a high value woman. I feel triggered. This isn't a safe space for me. I'm not sure if we have a lot in common or if we just trauma bonded. We just don't have the spark. I don't feel seen. So when you listen to this list, what does it bring up for you as a whole? You know, what do you read in this? I feel like we found terms to simplify experiences so that we can connect with others, so that we can say, me too, I went through that as well. Right?

1:26:23Jay Shetty:It's easier if I say to you, hey, Esther, you know, like I'm dating a narcissist. It's easy for someone else to say, me too. I think I went out with one of those two. And now we connect. and so we're not doing it with a bad intent i don't think there's a misintent but it creates this connection which is what i think we're deeply seeking for at the same time there are very serious things that need labels and need language so that we can make sense of them when we're struggling or dealing with something so that it's diagnosed we actually know what's going on what ultimately i'm seeing is a need to control oh interesting yeah i wasn't going to say that but yeah what were you going to say i was going to say that i think there's at the core that just feels the need to see and be seen, like to actually just make sense of our experience and hopefully for someone to say me too.

1:27:08Of course we want to be seen. But I will ask again, are you looking? Are you attempting to see others or are you just busy with the reflection on yourself? But next thing is when I say that a relationship is more than just the feeling, A relationship is an encounter with another. It involves ethics. And that ethics is about responsibility and accountability. And that is missing here. It's what are you doing for me? Are you giving me the safety I need? Are you giving me the spark I need? Are you, you know, are you providing? and this is romantic consumerism in which those aspects not that the items themselves are not super important but the approach to it what makes you feel not safe?

1:28:01What makes you doubt the quality of the bonding? Yes, people have often connected because they had shared loss shared grief shared experiences of destruction of natural disasters of wars, of displacement, of course. I mean, why does that have to be called trauma bonding per se? You know, there may have been something traumatic in it, but there is also maybe we bonded on our experience of revival. We bonded on how we process these experiences. We bonded on the meaning that we gave to all these losses. And we recognize that strength that we each have. it's all negative it all wants to have no ripples to be polished you know that's the simplification and I think relationships are way richer, more layered more nuanced, more complex than the kind of that's the motion that I see make it smooth

1:29:04Jay Shetty:absolutely, so right Esther these are your final five brought to you by State Farm. These questions have to be answered in one sentence. My challenge. Yeah. So this is your challenge. So what's a hard truth about love that most people don't want to hear? Love is not a permanent state of enthusiasm. It is a verb. It demands action and agency on your part. And you will be surprised how tenacious it actually is. It's incredible how when we love someone, a friend, a child, a parent, a partner, we will accept and see things with other glasses. And that's why it is so powerful to be the recipient of it.

1:29:54Because we will fuck up and the love of others will help us stand back up. Question number two, is love enough? In a relationship, no. But you can also assume them under love as well. You talked about respect before, admiration. I think admiration is essential. It's beyond care. Love can kill. Love can destroy. No, love is, there is no life without love for us, but it is a complex emotion. emotion. And no, it needs to be augmented by a lot of things. Love is a raw ingredient. It's like the food you have in the fridge. Now decide what you want to cook. What you want to eat, who you want to eat it with, and how you want to serve it.

1:30:43Jay Shetty:I like that, love. That's a great visual there. Question number three, what do you think more people should ask themselves before they get married? Is this a person I can make a life with? There are love stories and life stories. And there are lots of people you can love, but they're not necessarily the people with whom you can create a project of life. In French, they call it un projet de vie. It's a very beautiful concept. and before you get married is that. Can I imagine a life with you that's going to involve a lot of different things, moves and changes and losses and additions in our families and stuff like that.

1:31:27Can I see all of that with you? That's where it's beyond love. You can love someone that is not necessarily going to be the best partner for you or you for them. the feeling the romatine is great for a love story this is the life story be it marriage

1:31:45Jay Shetty:or commitment of any sort great answer i lost two questions sentences are these are great no they're perfect these are perfect they have commas they are perfect they're perfect last two questions uh question number four if someone's had their heart broken what's the one thing you'd want them to remember in that moment? You can choose in your life if you want to lead with your wounds or with your scars. You can choose to put the focus on the fact that your heart was broken and the wounds that come with it, but those wounds will become scars and the scars will be the proof that you have loved. And that would make you so much more attractive.

1:32:29If you've had your heart broken, it means your heart was filled. And I think that there is something beautiful in leading from the scars. It means I have lived, I have experienced, I've had relationships, I have loved, I have been loved, and I have also had my heart broken.

1:32:46Jay Shetty:Fifth and final question. Can you ever truly get over someone? Oh, yes. What does it mean to get over? To get over someone who hurt you? To get over, to forget someone? Can you get over someone? Yes, yes. And you won't forget them, but they will take a different place on your shelves. And they may actually be in the back of the shelf. And certain things happen and suddenly you remember them. Oh, that I used to experience with my ex-partner. But then they go back to the shelf and their real estate diminishes. Their impact diminishes. you are beginning to be able to remember them without reliving them.

1:33:29So you can tell a story that is a memory without having the entire activation of as if you were reliving it. So they become a memory. And that is what it means to get over someone. It's not to forget about them. It's not to pretend they never existed. It's they become a memory. And sometimes it's a bad memory, but it lives in the recesses. It's not right here.

1:33:55Jay Shetty:Esther Perel, I'm so grateful that you came back on the show today, celebrating 20 years of Baiting in Captivity. I'm so grateful to always have you on the show. And celebrating first year of Substack. It's a place to gather the work, from the podcast to the writings, to the exercises, to the notes, to the afterthoughts. So it's a place for consolidation. It's a great platform to be joining. And so it's an interesting thing because I'm saying not goodbye to this, but I'm saying, wow, we've lived together a long time. I'm ready to start a new relationship. I love it. Well, I'm excited to dive into the Substack as well.

1:34:38Jay Shetty:And I hope you come back onto the show for many more years to help us to really understand where we are as a society and kind of get a bird's eye view. I think you have this amazing ability to help us transcend the noise and the conversation that sometimes fills up our feed and allow us to view it from a different standpoint. I think whenever I talk to you, I feel like a portal in my mind opens up that often you thought there was only A or B and somehow you find a Z to open up in the sky. What's the Z you heard today? Today, the Z I would say for me was the question, I mean, there's so many things I can think about and I've opened a few of them.

1:35:17Jay Shetty:So the first one I'd say is that the question you ask the AI, the question that you ask, what will you do when he falls in love with another woman? Like that's such a humanizing question to AI, which is not human. To a business product. To a business product. And I find that to be the uniqueness in really extrapolating how these things function and what they say and whether it's performative vulnerability or whether it's not. Like even you asking a human question to a non-human entity is fascinating to me because I think we still treat it like a bit of an assistant and an order supplier and not really, most of us are not at least treating it as human.

1:35:57Jay Shetty:I feel another one that really stood out to me today was when I asked you about Gen Z and how most of them don't have access to each other, are not talking to each other, are not approaching people, you explaining and you sharing that like, that's actually come from just this social change of connection. It's not even dating. Like we think it's a love issue and a dating issue, but really what you're bringing it back to is saying, well, that's just a social issue. We're just bad at connecting with people in general. And we started talking about Zoom and FaceTime and the lack of eye contact. And these sound like obvious things, but it's become so normalized to look at someone through a screen that it's so easy to forget that this is what we did and this is what we did yeah yeah and it's yeah so it's it's interesting how quickly the new norm becomes normalized and how we forget that looking at someone in the eyes is different to looking at someone through a screen and how for many people who grew up looking at people through a screen they'll never even know what this was in advance and so i think there's lots to and and for me the big revelation that came out of that conversation was just how people are so scared of their life being broadcast to other people and your point of constantly being under surveillance.

1:37:13Jay Shetty:How can you be vulnerable if you're constantly under surveillance? How can you be authentic if you're constantly under surveillance? The point of love was to be enjoying someone's company in the privacy of your home or in the privacy and the comfort of being a confidant of someone. That's what love is. Love isn't performative and uh on a stage but that's what it feels like now that love is on a stage of the person and their friends the person and their family and that that feels exploitative and it feels like how can you ever so i i i think a big part of it is also the worry for people to miss out on connection that comes from that so anyway so many things i mean i'm sure when i listen to the episode again a million other things but i'm grateful for you always opening up new visions and new spaces.

1:37:56Jay Shetty:So thank you. Thank you. It's fun. If you enjoyed this conversation, you'll love my episode with the world's leading relationship therapist, Esther Perel, where we talk about why your ego is ruining your relationships and how to date more effectively. I think we need to differentiate. Are you looking for chemistry for a love story? Or are you looking for chemistry for a life story? We spend so much time managing stress and wellness, but sometimes it's the unseen things around us that throw us off, like allergens hiding in the air we breathe at home. That's where Clorox Pure Allergen Neutralizer daily air spray comes in.

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