Jay’s Must-Listens: Are You Still Holding Onto Childhood Trauma? (Follow 3 Steps & FINALLY Heal) Ft. Gabor Mate & Oprah Winfrey

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0:05Welcome to the You vs. You podcast. I'm Lex Barrero, inviting you to go beyond the titles and the accolades of the world's most successful entertainers. Each week, we take off the cape and get real about the inner battles, childhood stories, and the moments that shaped our guests. Get inspired to become the best version of you. Listen to You vs. You podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Radhi Dvlukia and I'm the host of a Really Good Cry podcast and I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Uri if you're out there trying to date right now being ghosted on Hinge or want to create a dating profile that gives you a solid chance of matching with someone you actually want to go on a date with then this episode with Hinge's Director of Relationship Science Logan Uri is definitely for you Relationships do require work the best relationships are people who really work on them together listen to a Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:00I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about how to be a better you. When you think about emotion regulation, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome. Avoidance is easier, ignoring is easier, denial is easier, complex problem solving takes effort. Listen to the Psychology Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:53have experienced at least one traumatic event in their lives. But trauma isn't always loud. Sometimes it looks like overachieving, people-pleasing, or even emotional shutdown. 61 % of patients with first episode depression and 51 % with recurring depression reported childhood or recent trauma. But here's the good news. You can literally rewire your body's relationship to the trauma it carries. So today, we go deeper to understand what trauma really is, how it hides, and what it takes to finally heal. You're going to hear from Dr. Gabor Mate on the emotional cost of hiding who you are, John Legend on grieving without closure, Oprah Winfrey and Dr.

2:49Perry on the power of rethinking trauma and Anita on inherited wounds and generational fear. Here's the lesson. You're not broken. You're carrying something that was never meant to be yours to begin with. Let's get into it. The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only, Jay Shetty. Dr. Gabo Mate delivers a powerful truth. When you hide who you really are to survive your childhood, that survival can turn into lifelong trauma. That suppression can show up later as anxiety, chronic illness, or disconnection in your relationships. For example, nearly 80 % of autoimmune patients report a significant emotional stressor before onset.

3:42Studies show that burying our emotions early on can increase our chances of developing depression or addictive behaviors in adulthood. The good news is that suppression doesn't have to be permanent. Healing isn't about changing who you are. It's about coming back to the parts of yourself you had to leave behind. I often say to people, you're going to have pain one way or the other. Yes. Which pain would you like? because sometimes in life there's no pain-free options you can have the pain of suppressing yourself for the sake of being accepted or you can have the pain sometimes of being yourself and not being accepted you can have pain one way or the other and i have my own bias that the pain of not being ourselves ultimately is by far the greater and a more chronic pain and that the pain the short-term pain of being ourselves brings liberation and genuine independence, which means I can have genuinely independent relationships with other people who are willing to accept me as independent.

4:51But in the short term, which pain do you want? There's no pain-free option. Yeah, for sure. You reminded me of this beautiful idea that Thich Nhat Hanh shares that there's familiar pain and unfamiliar pain. And these are our two choices. And the challenge is we're so scared of unfamiliar pain that we would rather choose familiar pain and go through the same pain because we know how it's going to feel. Exactly. And we think, oh, at least I'm aware. At least I am conscious of how bad it can get. Exactly. But hearing you speak, being independent or being dependent both has pain. Yeah. And, but the pain of dependence far outweighs the pain of independence.

5:44Well, just put a bit of a nuance in there. Ultimately, I mean, Thich Nhat Hanh also talked about interbeing, how we all inter are. So in a certain sense, we do depend on each other, you know, and that's okay. The question is, do we depend on each other authentically or inauthentically? The fact that I'm independent doesn't mean that I'm not going to reach out for help or that I won't offer it. But it does mean that I will be honest with you and I won't pretend to be somebody else that I'm not so that you'll accept me. So there's anything interesting word difference between two phrases that sound very familiar.

6:27One is called individualism and the other is called individuation. Now rugged individualism is I don't need anybody and it's me against the world and this is the North American capitalist ideal. Well human beings never would have evolved had we been those rugged individualists. The rugged individualists wouldn't last more than one generation. But individuated means that we can be ourselves, truly ourselves, in genuine relationship with others. not rugged individualists. I mean, the most boring people are rugged individualists because they all look the same, you know. So you can be individuated and be truly yourself and still belong and still vulnerably desire human contact, you know.

7:24Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think there's a lot of rhetoric around, we don't care what anyone else thinks, and it doesn't matter, and you just do your own thing. And it's almost, that's almost a bitter response as well, because we do have to care what people think. If we lived in a world where you didn't care what anyone thought, it wouldn't be that healthy, because we would do all sorts of obscene, horrific things. I treat it differently. I'm intrigued, yeah, I'm intrigued. Yeah. I don't care what anybody thinks, but I do care what I do and how it affects other people. You know, so there's another spiritual teacher, Gunnar Rotana, he wrote a book called Mindfulness in Plain English, which I've just been working through recently, and he's talking about a higher morality that comes from being true to yourself and in touch.

8:18And he says, well, you don't need rules anymore because it's like St. Augustine said, love and do what you will so if you actually love the world you don't have to give several rules because that love will dictate how you like towards other people I can't worry about what other people think look if I worry about other people think I would not have written any of my books because each of my books challenge the the reigning orthodoxy in insane medicine you know or whether it's around attention deficit or stress and disease or addictions and every time I write a book I'm saying something that I'm not saying that I invented it but that I have come to understand and currently believe and want to communicate but I can't worry about what other people think mm-hmm or when I make a political statement I'm responsible what I say how I say it but not what other people think about it but I but that doesn't mean that I can that I ignore other people's experience mm-hmm so as long as my intention is purely to speak the truth and I do so with integrity, I can't worry about what other people think.

9:25I can't. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go around just doing terrible things because I don't care what you think. As long as I'm convinced that what I do, if I've done that kind of inventory, and I haven't always, but if I do an inventory about, well, what is my intention here? Is there a hierarchy of pain or hierarchy of trauma? What do you mean by hierarchy? I feel like people feel like, well, this trauma is worse than this trauma, and this trauma is better than this one. We often hear about that as a conversation. Is that accurate? So one could say so, because if you look at a child who stays sexually abused as opposed to a child whose parents just can't honor and accept and validate their emotions, well, my God.

10:19You're talking about two different set of experiences so that there's certainly horrific things happen to some people, to wound them and other people suffer wounds in a very different way. But the question is, is it useful to make that distinction? It's one thing to recognize it, but let's say you're my four-year-old. You come to me and you say that I'm afraid of so-and-so. And I say, snap out of it. Only cowards are afraid. And then get out of here and take care of yourself. And then you went to your mom and said, I tried to talk to daddy, but, you know. Would it be helpful for your mother to say, oh, snap out of it.

10:59Think of all the kids that are being sexually abused. Think of all the starving kids. Think of all the kids that are being bombed. What are you complaining about? Would that be helpful? No. So that it's not a helpful game to play. I don't compare people's traumas. trauma simply means a wound and people are wounded in all kinds of ways when I try to help people the least helpful thing I can do is to tell them that somebody else's trauma is much worse than mine much worse than yours so objectively yes practically it's not a helpful distinction people are wounded and you have to tend to the wound whatever it is you know if you came to me with a cut on your arm and you asked me to stitch it up it wouldn't be helpful for me to tell you that oh what are you worried about there's people with broken arms out there or people with broken you know so no it's not a helpful thing to engage in even though there's truth in it yeah in this next conversation john legend opens up about the intensely personal loss of losing a child and how he and Chrissy didn't avoid the pain, but rather walked it together.

12:11One in four pregnancies ends in miscarriage. I've had so many friends and family members over the last 12 months tell me about that in their experience. Yet the silence around pregnancy loss can be just as painful as the loss itself. John's story is a reminder for us all. Grief isn't something that can be solved. It just needs to be seen. The point isn't to get over it. The point is to get through it without losing the love, the honesty, and the connection that makes you whole. You mentioned grief and the song Pieces in the new album, there's the beautiful lyric, let your broken heart learn to live in pieces.

12:54And I literally just haven't stopped thinking about that because i think that there's so much about us that's constantly trying to get everything to fit and even with the heart we're trying to become whole again like there's always that concept but you're like let your broken heart learn to live in pieces like where did that come from like that idea the idea of the song is that we never completely shed or forget this trauma that we may go through in life this loss this heartbreak like we'll remember it there'll be times when we'll feel those pangs of memory that it'll come back. It doesn't mean you can't heal.

13:34It doesn't mean you can't recover, but it does mean that that grief will still be a part of who you are, a part of your story. Effectively recovering from that means not forgetting it, not that it didn't happen, but learning to live with it and learning to continue to live with it and experience life and joy and pain and all the things that come in life afterwards continue to like live on. Yeah. Despite the fact that this grief won't ever leave you completely. Yeah. It's almost like we're asking the wrong question. We're always like, how do I move on? How do I get over this? And you're saying, well.

14:14And you're saying, I'm saying you're going to carry it. It's part of your life now. It's part of your story, part of who you are. like I said with Chrissy like I've seen so much growth through our grief and through our tragedy it's always going to be part of who we are and I'm fine with that like it's part of who we are it's we carry it with us and it's okay yeah and that and I'm sorry for your loss and I'm like you know that I mean I don't think there's pretty much anything harder to go through than than what yeah I've never been through anything harder, but it just means, you know, when you live long enough, you're going to go through something like that.

14:57And figuring out how to continue to live as you carry that with you is what the song is really about. Yeah. And often we find that those traumatic and difficult experiences can break people apart. But you focus on growing closer together. What do you think is that difference? Your values are so clear. I can tell in this interview, I'm like, values of children, of family, of love, of kindness, of connection. Like, how do you in moments like that, is it that your values just drive you forward? Or like, how do you make sure? Because I think sometimes people just have experiences that derail their everything else that's going right.

15:32Yeah. And I don't know, because like, I think part of it is just, we were already on a great foundation where we really respected and loved and enjoyed being with each other, respected each other's values and the ways, you know, the things we saw in each other's character that we fell in love with were still there. But I think you also have to like commit to working through pain, you know? And I think we both committed to doing it, like doing the work that we needed to do to get through it. Yeah. No, I'm happy to hear that. And, you know, my prayers and - Thank you. Yeah. And I think having already had two kids together, was definitely helpful because they just bring so much joy into our lives and laughter and fun, and they're a great focus for our energy.

16:26And so even when you're going through deep grief on losing a pregnancy, you still have these two beautiful babies that you love, and I think that was certainly helpful.

16:42Welcome to the YouVersusYou podcast. I'm Lex Barrero, and every week we sit down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff, the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are. We go deep, exploring childhood trauma, family, overcoming loss, and the moments that shaped their journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off our heroes, with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you and therefore set you free to live the life of your dreams. Here's a sneak peek. I'm trained to go compete. I'm trained to, like, go harder.

17:16But sometimes that mentality stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own garden. Is it wrong to want more? We migrated. Our family migrated here. I'm like second generation. Who will not have a trauma coming from a foreign country and you'll come to the United States or you'll speak English?

17:56we talk all things dating that Logan has studied and tested from what to put in your dating profile, the pictures you should and shouldn't be using to the conversation starters that actually work. And the huge no-nos that people probably do not realize are reducing their chances of success on apps. Whether you're single, dating, or just trying to be more intentional in love, Logan offers the kind of clarity we all need. Relationships do require work and the best relationships are people who really work on them together. They're so focused on if I find the perfect person, then I'll have the perfect relationship instead of understanding really that they can choose someone great and then build that relationship together.

18:35They don't need to keep searching for perfection. Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about exploring human potential. I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills. And I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students who would be like, it's easier to punch someone in the face. When you think about emotion regulation, like you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy, which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it.

19:11If it's going to be beneficial to you, because it's easy to say like, like, go blank yourself, right? It's easy. It's easy to just drink the extra beer. It's easy to ignore, to suppress. Seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just like walk the other way. Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. Denial is easier. Drinking is easier. Yelling, screaming is easy. Complex problem solving. Meditating. You know, it takes effort. Listen to the Psychology Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

19:51Next, we'll hear Oprah and Dr. Perry who challenge what we think trauma should look like. You don't need a violent or dramatic event to be traumatized. Neglect, lack of validation, or emotional absence can be just as damaging. In fact, emotional neglect is one of the most common and overlooked forms of trauma. Oprah reframes the question for people exploring their own traumatic history from what's wrong with me to what happened to me. That small shift, that one question can completely transform how we see ourselves and how we heal. What do you think was something that you misunderstood or had an incomplete understanding of about trauma that has now become more complete or more deep?

20:46Oh, what a great question, Jay. I thought trauma prior to my conversations with Bruce in doing this book, I thought trauma had to be a big, gigantic thing, experience. You had to go through a tsunami, literally, if not literally a tsunami, a tsunami-like crisis in your life. a fire, a hurricane, a tragedy, a car accident, a stabbing, somebody died. And it was through co-authoring this book with him that I understood that it was the consistent little things. It was the aggressions and microaggressions in a person's life that causes them to have their own worldview. Whatever that worldview is for you is different from me.

21:38So the biggest learning for me is that trauma doesn't have to have a great big old capital T on it. It's really how you were loved. And that neglect and trauma are hand in hand because both are equally as toxic. And so I'd always, you know, just like you with your, you know, millions of listeners, I, over the years of interviewing people, it was my greatest classroom. I was always paying attention to what people were saying and paying attention to their lives. And what I understood and could articulate, not through science, but just through my own observation, is that, oh, people are as dysfunctional, as unhappy, as disoriented in their lives based on how far they are from the center of themselves.

22:33And the center is where wholeness lies, as you know. And so where there is no center and there is no sense of wholeness and love for yourself, there's going to be disarray, chaos, confusion, and, you know, dysfunction in your life. And I saw that over and over and over again, that people behave based on how they were loved and then how they were able to process that in a way to love other people. And so Bruce just gave me the science for that. What this book did is gave me the science for it. I love that. I think it's a brilliant distinction between what we think is trauma and what trauma can be for all of us.

23:22I have one last question I wanted to ask you before we dive in to the conversation with Dr. Bruce Perry. It's this idea that you've interviewed so many influential, successful people and people of all different backgrounds and walks of life. And so often their success is actually built on their trauma. And so their success doesn't often satisfy them. What have you seen has been that transition when they go beyond their success, they heal their trauma to actually find true success for themselves? That is deep, layered, complex question. So this is what I, this is what, there's many layers to that.

24:01What I, what I realize is that if you come into success and fame, and particularly fame, because fame is its own world and definition, because it really is based upon what other people think of you. So, because fame isn't what you think of yourself, it's what other people think of you. If you come into that and you don't have a grounded, centered self, you will be controlled by the outside instead of the inside. And if you come into that not in the fullness of knowing who you are and what you're supposed to do with that fame, whenever somebody likes you or doesn't like you, that determines whether or not you're having a good day or a bad day.

24:56and you have lost control of your own life. So I think what fame teaches you quickly is to grow the wholeness within yourself so that you're not controlled by others' outside opinions of you. That is a beautiful answer. And I think it will resonate with so many because so many of us are on that journey to be successful or be famous or be rich or whatever it may be. But to hear it from that perspective is truly refreshing. I want to ask you both this first question to start with is why is it so important to make this switch from us thinking what is wrong with you to what happened to you? Well, let me answer that because I first came across this question of what's happened, what happened to you when I was doing an interview with Dr.

25:52Proust-Berry a couple of years ago for 60 Minutes story I was doing. Now, I've known Dr. Perry for over 30 years. I first started interviewing him in the early 90s, late 80s, early 90s on the Oprah show when we were talking about raising children and how important it is those first zero to six years. So I've been hearing about what it means to nurture and support the brain early on. It wasn't until that conversation a couple of years ago. I don't know whether I think it's because of where I was in my life at the time. I opened a school in South Africa. I've had these wonderful, brilliant girls who come from traumatic backgrounds grow up and have really serious mental health issues.

26:40And I was trying to at the time figure out what are we doing wrong at our school? Something's really wrong here. And in that interview with Dr. Perry, he said, you know, most people ask the question when kids are not behaving the way you want them to behave or what's wrong with them, we really should be asking about what's happened to you. And something went, aha, in my brain. It was like a major moment, like I got it in a way that I hadn't received it before. And I realized that it's not just for children that you ask that question, but it's really everybody. And that moment, Bruce, as I've said to you many times, Dr.

27:19Perry, changed the way I saw my relationships, how I saw my own life, how I interacted with people. And even in politics, where it was so crazy in the past four years, and everybody's always talking about what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong. I would always say, I wonder what happened to that person. I wonder what happened to them younger that caused them to be this way. So all of the labels that you just gave, Jay, there is a world of labels. There is, you know, overachiever. There is, you know, obsessive compulsive moms, soccer moms. There is the desire to, you know, please people all the time.

27:57There's a multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple labels that refer back to what happened to us. And so I will just say this. One of the things that Bruce says in the book, each of us comes into the world with our own worldview. And that worldview is actually shaped from the crib. And you get from the world what you project into the world, and you project into the world what you were raised with and what you were raised around. So that's why what happened to you is the essential question. so beautifully said and i wish my brain had aha moments that sound like that oprah too so

28:44i love that and dr perry i'd love to hear your thoughts well i come at this from a slightly different perspective because i have a long history of being a history fan and had studied history growing up and was very well aware of the relationship between the things that happened in the past playing a major role in how things were functioning currently. And I think that that's, I think most people are able to kind of make that connection. But as I became a biologist and learned about the development of the human body and the human brain, it became clear that we have our own personal history and that the things that happened in our life shaped the systems in our brain that influence how we think about things, how we feel about things, and how we behave.

29:34And it really, it leads to a completely different approach to getting to know somebody. You enter the interaction with a curious mindset. You're curious about like, what's going on? I mean, and it really, I think, is as Oprah says, it really opens up this new perspective on understanding a person. You can be much more empathic with them as opposed to being so judgmental. Yeah, for me, that reframing that you both have so beautifully illuminated in this book is so subtle, but it's so powerful because it removes that judgment. It removes that negative observation, that criticism, that fear that people feel on the receiving end of that as well.

30:22To me, just that switch of question is so powerful. And, you know, when I was diving into the book, there were moments where I just, I was so grateful to you for what you shared. And, you know, you open up about a story about how your grandmother used to whip you over the smallest, most insignificant things like spilling a glass of water. And this harsh, right, exactly, breaking a plate. And this harsh, this harsh behavior was normal for you as a kid. And you said something in the book that really stood out to me. You said that the long-term impact of being whipped turned you into a world-class people pleaser for most of your life.