Jerrod Carmichael ON: Reframing Shame into Self- Growth & Emotional Blocks That Stop Us from Having a Healthy Relationship

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1:14Radhi, we're always talking about being intentional with our time and energy, right? What about gifting with intention? Apple Gift Card is perfect. They can use it for meditation apps on the App Store or audiobooks from Apple Books, whatever nourishes their mind best. Exactly. It's a gift of possibilities aligned with their personal growth journey. Visit applegiftcard.apple.com to learn more and gift with purpose today. The biggest conversations in my life, the scariest ones, won't even lead to like devastation. It just could potentially lead to like a moment of discomfort, of cringe or whatever.

1:51And it's worth it. The best-selling author and host. The number one health and wellness podcast. On Purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. It means the world to me that we have this amazing community. And I've just been seeing the engagement, the connection that you're all having recently, all the Instagram posts, the TikTok posts, the posts on Twitter. Like, it's unbelievable. Thank you so much for all the love. I really mean that. And a guest comes along in a while, which I actually hear about from friends.

2:26and friends get fascinated and I go, oh, I need to interview this person. And that's how I discovered today's guest. So I was sitting with a good friend of mine, Ellen DeGeneres, and she said to me that she just watched a special by Gerard Carmichael. And she said this special was so special, to not be cliche, this special was so incredible that she was so moved by it. And she was like, you have to have him on your show. You have to sit down with him. You have to talk to him. And I was just like, okay. So I went and watched it, went and checked him out. I was like, oh, this is incredible. This is really different to anything we've also done on the show.

3:01As you all know, we've only had a few standup comics and comedians on the show so far. You know, so it was really new for us as well. But in the two minutes that I've spent with this gentleman backstage before we go live, I'm already addicted to his personality, which is always a good sign. So please welcome to the show, Emmy nominated comedian, Gerard Carmack. Oh, Gerard. Oh, man. So good to see you. Thank you for doing this. Literally it was Ellen. I was sitting in Ellen's house and I know she listens to the podcast. So Ellen, thank you for listening to the podcast. But when she listens to this, she was just like, you have to, and I think you went on the show too with her.

3:34Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, last season, right? It was nice. I've done it before, but it was nice to like go back and yeah. She's a huge fan. She's, I'm a fan of hers. I told her that like, obviously like a comedian that comes out and is incredibly brave. You know, it's rare. And she was at a time where it was really hard where you really, really got canceled for real. You know what I mean? Like actually like the show could get canceled, you know? Like, and she was so brave and also incredibly good at her job. Yeah. You know what I mean? And that's, yeah, that's great. Yeah, I love it. It brought us together.

4:16So that's always good. Yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad. I mean, a few seconds ago, you were saying that you've been watching my stuff on Instagram, but when I look at you, you're very private on social media and you don't post a lot. I wanted to understand, was that intentional? I got my little private, I have my private IG that is so weird. And someone called me out on it. It was like, you're private and verified. And like, it's silly. It's really like my publicist like set it up with the intention of like posting about shows and the like. And I'm someone who doesn't want attention unless like I asked for it.

4:51I'm probably the worst celebrity whatever ever because I never really chased it I really just like to work and then present that and that's pretty much it and like something like Instagram is really it is me I wouldn't want to present like a false version of myself uh so I wouldn't want to be presentational so I kind of close it off to just like as of right now maybe but I don't know if I'll ever do I'll probably delete it before i open it but like i can be like more honest than like a control like i can just post things that i would actually i would actually text these things to everyone and so i can remain truthful on instagram and non-perform i'm a performer who's trying to remain non-performing how's that going okay it's okay yeah yeah no it's uh it's i've become funnier i think like on stage and stuff uh by not performing like by being truthful like yeah yeah i think it's a better version of myself uh but yeah it's hard it's hard to in life it's hard to do that well that must feel very comforting i can imagine because i feel like for so many performers there's someone on stage because that's their job and then there's someone at home because that's who they are and so there's always this conflict inside and outside what for you has been like the biggest impact on who you are today like if you had to say this is a recipe of how i was created what would you add to that recipe to say like jarad is a little bit of this and a little bit of that like what's sugar and spice yeah um it's a big question it's a big question a huge question um i i don't know if i'll be able to fully answer it because like you know up to this point i'm i'm influenced by, you know, the time I'm in, who I am, being American, all of those things that we're all influenced by as a performer, influenced by, you know, everyone from Cosby to, you know, Jack Benny to, you know, to Rock and Chappelle and really good people, like people who are really good at their job.

7:07But lately I've been really influenced by just this drive to not lie. you know like like to not lie and like it's made me a storyteller because then like just trying to you know tell things about me or things in my life that like are scary is funnier i found for the work and being around people that i don't have to um try and protect my words with is more comforting. Yeah. When you were growing up, like what was the environment for you growing up? We just talked about North Carolina, which is where you were born and raised, right? So like, what was the environment like when you were growing up?

7:53And what, you know, for you, how early was it that you discovered that this was going to be a path in life? Because I think for me, I'm always intrigued to figure out how people discover things they're passionate about and things that they love because that's so rare. how early was it for you and what was the environment that you grew up in it was pretty early like i was a kid that performed a lot like i asked for a microphone every year at christmas that was like my constant i was like obsessed with microphones as a kid i sang on the choir even when i was like a like three my mom was an usher and she would um after church like i would cry until she held me up to the mic so i could i just like i like it i really respect it it's powerful it amplifies your voice people listen to it like so intimately in a performance setting even now like people are listening to this through headphones like you know it's like so personal uh and so like my whole life I've kind of always felt that way I've always filmed things I've always written I've always uh I've always performed uh and and then I fought against it I think for a period.

9:02I was really encouraged by a friend to make the leap and move to LA and do that. I lived here for like 10 years. And I thought it was like arrogant because I do think asking for people's attention is precious. Like I try not to be like super precious in my work, but like asking for their time, like doing a show, if I'm doing a show and I put up tickets and people spend money for tickets and then they drive out to the venue and they sit there and they wait for you and then they listen to you like that's that's asking a lot and so especially recently like just like respect that more you know like like i think i have the respect that has been growing in me since childhood for the nudging of a friend got me out to la but it was uh yeah yeah i love performance i love hearing that because i feel the same way that you know some some people listen to this podcast every day so they listen to the two new episodes and then they'll listen to old episodes i'm thinking sometimes i'm in people's ears every week for five to seven hours a week and i'm thinking that is so i'm so fortunate right like there's so much gratitude around that that someone allows you into their whether you're walking the dog right now whether you're cooking whether you're editing, whether you're cleaning, whatever you're doing at home right now.

10:25And you said that you've always had that kind of like that belief that having someone's ears or eyes or money or them turning up is precious. Tell me about then your, how does that lead into your creative process? Because I feel like for me, knowing that I just finished writing my second book, it took me two years to write it. And I put a lot of effort into it. And I know that when I've written a book and it's taken two years of my life to write it I'm putting it out I have to the creative effort is so high yeah because a the book pages don't change you can't edit those pages once they're out and someone's going to take their time it takes like potentially like written word written word yeah word is so I always thought it's crazy that Twitter uses the word publish right because like it's like it induces in me such anxiety just thinking about the how permanent it is and placing things out there that you can't get back and like uh that's why like if I'm gonna perform I think it's like I I don't do social media because I would like to put all of that energy in and I don't even say I don't do social media even that in itself could be a grand performance I mean I look like Kanye is an incredible perform like you know uh like it is very warhol-ish in that like it's spectacle to use a jordan peele word um but uh you know that's its own art form it can be its own art form but but like i put all of my energy into like i'm a comedian i make specials and i make television programming or whatever programs i make uh movies occasionally uh and and whenever i'm doing that i would only like for all of my energy and all of my thoughts to go to that.

12:13And then present that. I know I'm kind of repeating myself earlier, but it ties in. No, no, no, no, no, but we're going deeper into it. Yeah, we're going deeper into it. And what's your creative process like? So you're saying you put all of your energy, but like when you're building a special or one of those TV shows, like how do you even start? Like where's the process? What's the starting point? Like how do you get inspired at the beginning of it? I mean, it's a spark of something, you know, something a lot of times like anger. I think I started this. Just like a little angry. Then just started performing, doing clubs and then solo shows and then, you know, preparing to do it for television.

12:50And like I do stand up for specials, I think, at my core. That's like I think my intention reads better in that medium. Yeah. and uh working backward from what that is then you know take the writing and like form a show and like it just kind of happened this it happened my last special it happened really fast um just frustrations with secrets and and feeling too old to keep them and and to you know i like i didn't feel like an adult i didn't feel like i had control of my own life and so that you know created a lot of urgency to find a way to resolve that in art it's just that attempt like make it special and that's like my attempt yeah i'm sorry i'm probably no you know what i mean that's great i mean that's a great answer to hear the that honestly that's that's not i'm i'm speaking i'm trying not to be like evasive about it it really is just like it's i've been writing for years like like in in and i'm always writing sometimes that becomes a show sometimes it becomes something like it's mostly like most of creating is just a bunch of like trying and failing that no one sees you know and like uh you know failing in my own writing failing in my own head over and over and over and over again and like trying to make something right a show you know um structure a show yeah yeah but i love what you said that anger or frustration with your own identity and your secrets i mean that that whole concept is so real i think for so many of us whatever that secret may be whatever that identity may be personally i say to like you know my friends like i really think like everybody's in the closet about something yeah right there's a thing shame is such a powerful emotion a strong i mean there are plenty of books about just how it can dictate the course of your life and your actions and your behavior and so much is driven by shame and so much of who we are is just our attempts to hide that little piece of ourselves that can never be seen um at least it's been a common experience amongst people i've talked to and friends i'm sure you get a high volume of totally of it and so yeah it was um exciting and really scary to try and make something that dealt with that head on and and that's how i've been feeling in my personal life just even though it's kind of a blur between my work and my personal life now um but i've been trying to have conversations that i'd never had and trying to deal with shame and trying to restructure my relationship with god wow you know like like am i the funniest comedian you've had on the show i'm the funniest all right that's a scary question that's a scary question i hope i'm killing right now no but the shame parts i love that you went in that direction because i think that naturally shame is one of those topics that isn't talked about a lot publicly yeah so to even bring it up in a podcast is is great because we can actually talk about it but i find like we also live in a culture where shaming has become more normal right so we're talking about a time when we realize how powerful shame is as an emotion and how much it limits us from truly being ourselves at the same time shaming or cancel culture is growing at the same time how do you mean what i feel like today we point more fingers at others because we know more of what others are doing we are more likely to tear someone down because we can whereas in the past you wouldn't have access to do that you might do it in your dining table or you might do it on your couch at home, but you didn't have the ability to go on social media and leave hate comments or whatever it may have been.

16:46So it's interesting that you're saying that at the same time as you're saying that, hey, we need, you know, shame is holding people back from being themselves. We're also shaming others more, I guess, or we have more opportunity to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have an opportunity to speak a lot. That's a funny statement in and of itself. It's so much of that, so much of that. And to speak constantly and emotionally, you know, it's hard to like have intention in every tweet, in every post, in every... Should we is the question. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's it's even more powerful than the word spoken in a private setting, you know, because it's something that is even if you have one follower, you know, it has the potential of being seen and expressed amongst others.

17:41So, like, you know, your intention reads and yeah. And I question that a lot. I mean, we could go down and on for hours and hours about its effect on us. And even just thinking about even myself when I'm on Instagram, on my little private IG, I have a decent group of friends that I follow. And it's just so abnormal to catch up or have the illusion of catching up with all of them, you know like constantly like on loop there are people sometimes that i see that i feel like i've seen but i haven't actually had that experience with them i've only had like this experience with the representative that's you know uh you know like all like on close friends or whatever you know and and yeah it's just not like expressing that much like i i have this theory that we all are kind of becoming our own news channel like we're all the news and we have to we're all cnn or fox or whatever and we all have to fill the time like we have to fill the space like you like and the more you do it the more inclined you are to do it and again it's just hard to keep that married to intention you know like the sheer volume if you just speak if i wake up in the morning i just speak all day and i never pause i i it would be difficult to promise that everything i say would have as much intention yeah because just the sheer volume yep i like that theory i like that theory a lot that's cool because i went to someone's house once and it's without a doubt the coolest house i've ever been to this is a very cool house so you're saying that from a very cool house no but this was like this is like and and i'm saying it's a cool house not because of the building not because of the grandeur not because and same with this i don't think that's what why i think i like my own house was because of what he had in it so he had a whole wall and he called it the fake news wall because it was every piece of news that was published before they knew the time so back in the day if a newspaper was being printed if a game wasn't over they'd have to print the news with who was winning at the time wow in hope that right so so all of this whether it was people winning games whether it's votes whether whatever it was it was like articles that had been printed before the fact wow so he had all of it in america like all these big and i was thinking this is fascinating and what you're saying right now is that without intention a lot of what we create is fake news in our own little news channels yeah Well, because things change.

20:33You know, my opinion on an album, for instance, even just something as trivial as like, you know, my feelings toward a song or an album or whatever, like it changes. It changes over the course of a week. It changes through how I've listened to it. You know, I imagine if I were just talking publicly about Kendrick's last album, which I went from not understanding to not liking to only liking the interludes to then listening to it while I was getting a mandy-pedy. And I turned the volume halfway down so I could actually hear the words. I had to focus on the words. Something about the lower volume made me pay attention more.

21:13And hearing what he was saying and then being in love with the album. And those tweets would have been a roller coaster of emotion if I put that out constantly. Because your thoughts towards something should change and evolve and sometimes may take a little while to reach stable ground. And some people would argue that the journey is authenticity. Yes. But what is authenticity to you as a comedian, as someone who's like the theories that you just said? How do you define what is authentic and real and what isn't for you? One thing I've been reflecting on lately is how even the smallest choices can create a big impact over time.

21:56Whether it's choosing to spend a quiet night in to recharge or making a decision that brings you closer to a long-term goal, those moments of intention really matter. And when it comes to the choices we make with our money, that same mindset applies. I've learned that saving for the things that truly matter like your first home or a reliable car starts with small, thoughtful decisions That's why I appreciate what State Farm is doing with their personal price plan It gives you the power to personalize your plan and create an affordable price that works for your life You can bundle your home and auto insurance in a way that supports your journey and your goals Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan.

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24:41I try and a lot of things are true, right? Like you can go. I could I was presenting a lot of true things, right? Like things that I thought were hard facts or perspective that people wouldn't want to say out loud or be able to tolerate. And, you know, I did believe it and it was true, but it wasn't like, in my eyes, the most compelling version of the truth. I've found like now, like when working, I run toward things I'm afraid of and that have personal consequence in my life. So talking about me, because I never really talked about myself before, never considered myself a storyteller. and this is something I'm in many ways making art while learning in real time but but it is and has become my live show just like this kind of personal exploration not just that things that bring me shame things that like and and again it's hard to talk about the show yeah only because i'm sure i'm making it so it i i must give the the caveat that it's actually funnier than i've been but i i try and keep it compelling you know like i try and keep stakes in the act and like tension there like that's my new focus is you know bol says i like give the audience a lot like like more giving and i have more need of uh for them now more than ever and i like that experience So yeah, yeah, yeah.

26:19It's really personal now. Like it's the things that are dangerous to me, like the evil Knievel things are like my feelings toward, you know, myself or my feelings toward, you know, relationships that I have. What was the first thing you think you ever combated through that art exploration internally as a fear? Like I love that idea that your storytelling now or your specials, there a exploration of something you're scared of what was the first ever thing do you remember that you were scared of that no that's i i kind of baby stepped into my last project right uh so i i was like i made these documentaries uh for hbo where i went home and i was confronting like my my father's adultery and my mother's forgiveness of him and I tried to come out to my mom but I did it in a very uh it it was fearful so like I was like I hooked up with dudes before like just like kind of waiting for a reaction you know and it wasn't a full truth and then you know some time later I like came out to my family and it had still resonating consequences to that uh it affected our relationship in a in a real way there's a lot of uh anxiety and not speaking of kind of separating myself from my family a lot recently um I only share because I'm still in that part of the process I want to be honest about it I don't you know like what a Like, and I pray that it gets better and we should talk later about what prayer means to me.

28:03Yeah, I want to. But it's, you know, great, again, like kind of personal consequence. And so my last special Rathaniel was me, you know, really kind of drawing a line in the sand with my family coming out publicly, contending with my father's adultery, its effect on me, the kind of generational trauma caused by adultery, caused by having other kids outside the marriage that were kept secrets and how just years of secrets like kind of repressed us and repressed me into a liar, you know, not unable, a liar and unable to tell my own truth and so I look at the special as being um the the synopsis could read like on HBO like man afraid of heights jumps out of an airplane for the first time yeah like that was my last special like that was the the intention was doing the scariest thing I could imagine I never thought I would ever come out I was afraid of the public's reaction I was mostly afraid of my mother's that that was the the feet walking on to the stage and doing it yeah that's i mean that even just hearing you say that i mean that is so inspiring as a as a creative person like to hear that your creative impetus or intention or process is to confront a fear a shame something that difficult and of course you're doing it through comedy which is even harder in one sense because you're making these extremely deep traumatic events you know light-hearted to some degree where people are able to be entertained but the thing is what i found with audiences is that when i go when i share things that are personal to me um no matter what the danger and i've said things that are i mean this is happening in real time and like it's like tweets like art art is capturing a moment in time that's why i try and focus all the energy on one thing like my my special is just one ig live yeah you know what i mean like it's like it's like the one thing that i focused on i found that when i when it's personal yeah it's not the same audiences like you can't like i'm talking about how i feel i'm talking about me i'm talking about things i went through and how that developed this perspective right that's all truthful um is different than if i'm just like talking about which you you can do i i'm all for whether you like it or not kind of comedy free speech you have every right to do that like and comedians do that and i did that i mean most of my career but still up until recently was a lot of that trying to say the thing i like to think of mine was more intellectual but that's my own egotistical argument for it but you know but now I'm talking about me and when I'm talking about me like audiences react with empathy or compassion even when I say sometimes I say like some wild things you know but it's mine it's personal like that's that's different you have ownership over how you feel you know and and that's what I want my art to be just like how I feel right now just like a an emotion like a pure intention bottled yeah yeah yeah a lot yeah i i get that you've you've said it's interesting though your language is like full of like intention truth like yeah and i almost hate that i almost hate it because it's like these are powerful words that obviously get overused and i'm sure i'm overusing i don't think you are but it's like the word platform like i hate the word but i don't think you're overusing them i i feel like i don't think you're overusing them from from at least what I'm generating from this conversation.

31:49Like, I guess what I'm fascinated by is like what you said. You said you were, I think you used the word and I could have got the word wrong, but you said you were reconstructing a relationship with God or reframing that. And then you said, let me define what prayer is to me. Let's do both those things. You said I pray. It's in many ways one in the same because I think my entire life, I've kind of believed this, but didn't have the language to articulate how I felt. And that is truly taking the Christianity that I was taught growing up my whole life into church every Sunday. Even when my mama worked, I went with my grandma, sang on the choir, Sunday school class into regular service, stayed after, talked in the parking lot, full church boy.

32:37And learning about God, the man in the sky, who at your request can show you benevolence and as consequence for your sins punish you. And I was taught about this man and internalized this man, and he dictated my actions and my words and my fear. And then I read this book by Eric Butterworth called Discover the Power Within You. And it helped me articulate how I felt, which is if you take Christ's words as philosophy, right? Just take away this human need to worship the light and just listen. And accepting your own divinity. And by divinity, I don't want to be confused because I think blues, sometimes non-religious people, I mean your potential to function fully.

33:51That's all something that Christ has said That you have You have at birth It is your right And you are essentially God Manifesting himself as Jay As Gerard I accept that I accept my own potential I realize that prayers are just affirmations That you are asking for what you already have I think it's why good advice Feels familiar Someone says something you're like, yes, oh, yes, I knew that. That's so true. That's why you connect with it. That is so true. And it is there, and it's divinity that we all have access to. But it's always like the practice that's rough, right? Because it's easier. It was easier for me.

34:43I want to speak personally. It was easier for me to just accept a God that I can send sin and then ask for forgiveness and, you know, a Bible that I didn't fully understand and just kind of accept that there's this external force dictating. And, you know, that kind of, the devil relinquished me of responsibility for my own actions. I was able to kind of back away from things. That wasn't me. That was the devil, you know. And now by internalizing that philosophy and seeing it as philosophy, I had to remove the magic from the Bible, right? And this is what works for me, and I'm saying it cautiously because I know, like, I can still see the ears of my mother perking up.

35:29So, like, I'm saying that this is what has helped me. And just, like, realizing that God is me functioning as I can, you know, And things function as they can. Access to good. We all have access to good even through tragedy, even through pain. Those words of the Bible become different. They hit a little different when you accept yourself as innately divine. All things work for good through God who strengthens me. You know, like Philippians is something that you know, oh, I can use all of this for good. I can take what, you know, I can take the rubble or things from the ashes and make something new out of this and continue forward, like with a sense of purpose, with a sense of duty.

36:24I can form that, you know, taking tragedy. And we see it all the time, like, you know, parents of children going through tragedies or, you know, people just with loved ones who experience something. And then they take what's been destroyed and they make something new, you know. And that is the Bible. That's using your own innate power to move forward. And that's the line between me and my mother. that's been the line between me and the church my entire life. I've always wanted to believe that. And it wasn't until I came out or even accepted, let's just say accepted, who I was, that I was forced to then say, okay, well, God as tall to me is not accepting of me.

37:17And I had to reexamine in order to not destroy myself. I love hearing your thought process because it's so real, like you're so in it. And as someone who's created a piece of art based on a fear, you've had to live through that fear again and again and again in the creation process. how did it feel did you feel that making a piece of art on that relinquished a fear and now you could move on to another shame or another guilt or another fear or what was the what was it like yeah yeah does that make sense yeah yeah and and speaking of that fear like i was like i did a few shows on the roll in preparation for the special and like i was like coming out to audience members that knew me like every night like like it was like a new it was like jumping off a cliff like yeah yeah um and it was a lot but it is how i knew it's the direction i needed to go in because it did scare me and i you know i've learned to trust that that feeling isn't always that i'm going in the wrong direction but in fact that i'm going there's like a lot of fertile ground yeah yeah it's the the fear it just stays it just stays the whole time the whole time until it's released and then you kind of release the fear did you feel you released the fear when that happened yeah in many ways well in many ways because i feel more truthful publicly now which feels great yeah that feels really really good yeah and so i don't have the fear of being found out in that way but there's still i'm definitely still fighting through shame and how it's manifested itself in my life through you know things that really are like that i could call hypochondria or ocd or whatever but really like anxieties rooted in shame that i'm working through and that i'm trying to understand better myself and i feel it like my job to explore that you know so i kind of chased that feeling i don't recommend it i was just about to say i was like how do you recommend people do this because i think that whether you're a performer or not we all have to go through this process yeah yeah yeah yeah i do recommend like for whatever it's worth me saying like that you run toward all of the things that you're afraid of in in a truthful way contend with it with an open mind i think that's very very important how did you do it in a way that didn't break you or hurt you or because i think that's where people are scared of shame and guilt because it feels like a broken piece of glass yeah and so when you pick up a broken piece of glass you could get cut yeah so people like oh it's just better to just shove it away yeah i don't know and i'm still like you know i still like i feel like i'm still picking it up but but But good friends, very, very important in my case.

40:22And, you know, people that remind me where the ground is, you know, just get caught up in all of it. All of it. Anxiety is real. I'm recently admitting that I experience anxiety. I ran away from admitting that much of my life. Yeah, I can relate to that. I remember a few years ago, my mom would always tell me, I think you're stressed. And I'd be like, no, I'm not stressed. I'm fine. And I didn't even want to admit it to myself. So it's not that I was lying to her. I was lying to myself. I didn't even want to, because I was scared that if I let that in, then that would change me somehow. That would block me or stop me.

41:07Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I didn't realize that. And that you're weak. Totally, yeah. It's the thought that you're weak. Weak. How dare you? oh you're being consumed by these oh this small little thing is eating you up and it's just like yeah yeah exactly yeah and it is yeah it is yeah and i had a friend that i remember was going for depression very early on and like this when we were much younger and i didn't i was like how can you be depressed like you've got nothing to be depressed you know that kind of mindset yeah and then you go for something yourself and you go oh god i experienced depression like yeah and i was scared of accepting it and it took me it was the same for me it was the weak aspect it was the aspect of no no no some people have it much worse like what am i complaining about it was it was the shame that came with oh no but i'm you know i if my mom thinks i'm stressed then she'll get stressed all of that and any excuse not to correct confront it right yeah confront it and i feel like you just keep putting it off and now i've realized that i need to talk to that feeling or emotion when it arises because me putting it away just makes it get bigger and darker and deeper yeah and and that's what i find so interesting doing it through art because when you're putting it out in front of other people again now it's their mind their impression gets involved too like what they're going to think of it yeah what is it right now if you said that there's a fear right now or a shame or guilt right now that you're trying to unpack next like is there something that not that you're working on specifically for a new project, but even just in your own life?

42:39Yeah, you know, probably emotional blocks that like stopped me from being in like a healthy relationship with someone. Wow. You know, and as someone who came out publicly later, I realized that there are phases and things that I go through and that it's normal to go through. But just understanding those blocks um has been interesting to me as of late um and dealing with the the things that don't sound cool like give me an example i can't well well only because not that i not even that i don't want to but but i understand i'm only respecting that on stage is a different place yes that that allows me to say things i get it that like that like i may say something that i'm like well now we need another hour yeah you know i'm like well dude can we can i explain everything that led to that like you know like i i don't know i love that yeah yeah nothing i mean you know just things that are personally scary to me you know like you know there are no bodies or anything but like but you know there are like you know things that have like emotional consequences that that i've um you know run from i like i like how simple you went back to it's just like good friends like you know friends are just it sounds like such a basic thing and i was we had some friends over that hadn't seen for years this weekend and we were all just appreciating that as well in terms of i remember i i've been coaching people for a long time and that was really what my work was before I did any of what I do today and all I ever met was people who were lonely at the top like that was consistent with my experience and so I would often say to myself that while I'm building my life I don't want I want to make sure that I build relationships at the same time as build things and I don't just mean like love and romantic I mean like friendships as you're saying and I've realized just how much time that takes how much energy that takes how much effort that takes but how fulfilling it is and it sounds so simple and it's so basic oh it's difficult and it's almost and it's almost a lot of the things that drive you to be successful are isolating yeah like it there is a lot of accepted selfishness even amongst friend like i at times have been a horrible friend like a very selfish friend like i mean just like get on the phone talk about me for an hour all right bye you know just like a one-sided friend a friend who's used money to supplement connection a friend who's like kept friends at arm's distance so i could work or focus or however i justified it and i still do that i still do that like that like i I can relate.

45:39Like in, and I, and I, and I value my work. And so specifically in art, like it's like licensed to sometimes indulge in like behavior or in emotions that are harmful to relationships. And I can't tell if that's, look, it's not okay. Cause it's like, but it's like an occupation hazard. Occupational hazard. Yeah. Yeah. It's an occupational hazard. It's like, you're, I don't know. I have to go there. I have to go into this cave. Having the right people in your corner to support you is a great form of self-care. Just like the friend who shows up to a housewarming party when you get that dream home, celebrates your big promotion, or goes with you on a walk to clear your mind, State Farm is there to help you feel supported.

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47:45You're also guided by faculty who've lived the work themselves, scholars and practitioners with real experience. This is the kind of opportunity that reminds you it's never too late to go after what you want. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it. Head to waldenu.edu and take that first step. Walden University, set a course for change. Certified to operate by Chev. I think the part I find fascinating about it is the awareness of it, right? I think the lack of awareness, a lot of people may be doing that, but they don't even know why. Yeah. Whereas, and I can relate to a lot of that.