Kelly Wearstler ON: Why Changing Your Environment Will Change Your Mood and How to Access Curiosity to Pursue Your Passion

31:09And so, uh, it was on the canals in Venice, this really cool bungalow and design. They were like, listen, all we do, we only have money for one room. So let's do this. I did it. and there was color and there was like vintage things and there was some contemporary artist pieces and the room like looked, you know, incredible. They didn't quite understand it. And they were like, well, it doesn't feel like maybe what I'm seeing. And so, you know, I had to really like talk them through it. And this is, you know, before, you know, now you're doing like renderings for, you know, your clients to really understand, you know, there was a lot of communication, you know, I took them to the flea market with me, you know, and we really made these decisions together.

31:53They were a little apprehensive, but it turned out great. I ended up doing the whole entire house and then somebody saw that. And so, yeah, it was, it was a little scary. And, and still now there are clients that are, maybe we'll do a presentation. They'll say, you know, I like part of it, but maybe this part I don't like. And if I truly believe I'll take the time and kind of show them the way and my thought process and maybe give them, you know, a few more visuals. So the team and I will work on that, you know, but if it doesn't, if they're not 100 % dialed in and excited, then we'll come up with another option.

32:30And, you know, we're all about, you know, making, you know, our projects, you know, amazing and unique, but we also, you know, want to make sure our clients are like so happy and love the space. So it can be challenging for sure how did you get that confidence especially early on right so you're asked to do a dining room i can't believe that you were you know like it's beautiful to hear that that today when you're designing multiple hotels and that it started with just designing a dining room and i think that's so inspiring for so many people listening and watching who either want to follow in your career path or do something creative that they can think wow that that's where it can start how did you have the confidence at that point to walk them through it and say hey even if you don't get it this makes sense what gave it to you at that point or did you feel at that point did you feel a bit nervous when they said hey we're not you know we don't get it or or did you always have that confidence about your work no i was nervous okay 100 like i was like oh my god am i making the right decision like i felt like in my heart it was the right decision so i really wanted to not convince them but have them like understand like where i was coming from and and they they had faith in me and we went for it and it looked amazing.

33:42And, you know, you still, we still have those clients, but yeah, it was a nervous, nerve wracking experience. And we still now will do a presentation, like the team and I will work on something for weeks. And it's like a really big concept presentation. And there will still sometimes be like, this just doesn't feel right? Because our audience, maybe whether it's for a hotel, and it's a group of people, they might not, they might not have seen it before. And, and I strive for that, I want to do something that is unique and site specific. And, and so they might not see before, so they get a little, a little timid.

34:22So again, it's being, you know, really communicating and letting the client know what what uh you know is in our mind's eye tell us about some of the communication skills that takes because i think when people think of creative careers we think of them as purely artistic but actually you're dealing with someone's intimate homes or a hotel space which again is people are coming there to rest or relax or connect or take a break so they're very important spaces for us and therefore people are quite opinionated about them how what have you learned about communicating more effectively with people especially when things are so personal because i think that's a unique skill set that people wouldn't understand that you've had you'd have to have but you you obviously have to because you're talking to people about things that they have very clear thoughts about and specific choices for confidence like presenting it like you have to believe it and having confidence is everything the visuals are so important.

35:26And so I like to communicate with the visuals because I can talk for an hour and, and the client might still not understand like the direction. So having the visuals is everything and the confidence, confidence is so is everything. For you, you know, like we just talked about your career started from like humble beginnings. And I wonder what is, what was the hardest thing about getting started? What was the most difficult thing on this journey to get to where you are today? What was the thing that scared you the most, the thing that you struggled with the most? Like I'm, I'm a really hard worker and I, I know what I like probably going into it like by myself.

36:15Like I did the job starting out for three years by myself. I was the business person, the creative person. I was loading my car up at the flea market with a huge chair and putting it in myself and doing everything. And so doing that by myself, and I didn't work in a design studio. So I didn't have that visibility to how a design studio truly operates. So really figuring out the contracts, the budgets and how to present that, I did it, you know, on my own and I asked a lot of questions and there were some great contractors and people that I was working with and collaborating with on these projects.

36:57And I just asked, you know, a million questions, but I would say that doing that alone. And now when I go to a big meeting and I get nervous doing a big presentation and I have my team and my support team, my family, my, my husband, who's like my biggest cheerleader. and we do it as a team. And that was probably like the most kind of frightening part of starting. Yeah, and I'm hoping that, the reason I asked that is I think there are so many people right now who are listening, have a passion, have a creative project that they want to work on. And it can feel daunting when you say, oh, I don't know accounts.

37:36I don't know how to do my taxes. I don't know how to put a presentation together. I don't know how to pitch that. But you're saying asking questions and just doing it, I guess. I'm guessing there were lots of - Yeah, you just have to do it. I mean, honestly, you just have to do it and really, you know, just having the passion and really, you know, the drive to wanting it and educating yourself along the way. And I'm continuing to educate myself along the way. And every project we have, there's a new group of creatives, whether it's a landscape or architect, lighting designer, that we all learn from one another.

38:14And that just makes me and my team a better designer. And we pass it along to all of our next projects and clients. What do you think was your biggest mistake that you made on that part of the journey? Like something that now you look back and you're like, oh, that's ridiculous. I can't believe that was a mistake, that it doesn't feel that big. But at that time you were like, oh no, I don't know how to do this. Or, you know, this felt true. Oh my God, so I worked on a project and I had one assistant, but we were working on this project for this, um, uh, music executive and she loved color. And so she was traveling and, um, and this was actually starting out.

38:52She had a really low budget. And so we were like, listen, we're going to have this painted. We're going to do something unbelievable. And it looked awful. It was like, so it was a wreck and it was just too many colors just went overboard, which you can do, which is great. You, you to make mistakes. It's so important in the creative process to make mistakes. And, um, so she was going to be back in a week and my assistant, and like, we'd spent the money on the painters. So we, so I painted myself with, with my assistant, the entire house ourselves. Wow. You know, we wanted to make a great, and that's not the first time I've done that.

39:31We worked on projects that there was like a little budget and I wanted the project so badly to be amazing and I wanted to make the client happy and they're just and so I just like painted myself that's amazing that's incredible yeah you just sometimes you just have to do that person now claim that Kelly painted my house I think they moved since then uh but you know I just did it myself and sometimes you just you know you have to do it you have to just put in the extra work and and make it happen what do you think was the biggest risk you took on this journey where you felt like you were kind of leveling up?

40:04I feel everyone goes through this phase of the doing the work, the growing, the building, you went from doing the dining room to the whole home. What was a big risk that you thought or a leap you had to take, which kind of shifted your career? I would say, you know, when I was doing interiors and, and this is like, what's so great about, you know, my job is like anyone can call any moment. I got a call from Bergdorf Goodman, you know, this incredible store in New York. And they were looking for a designer to do the like iconic restaurant on the top floor. And so they're like, we'd like to come out and meet with us.

40:37And we did like a presentation. And I was like, they were like, well, listen, we're speaking to a few other people. And I thought for sure it was going to be a New York designer. Like I was the only one on the West Coast they were speaking with. And we ended up getting the commission, which was like unbelievable. And this is like a store that, you know, you just dream about because it's, you know, so, you know, iconic. So doing that project and it was like a really, you know, big success. It looks the same way. I think it's been like 12 years since that project was completed. So after the project, the president of the company said, hey, listen, you know, we would love for you to have a shop.

41:14I'm Radhi Devlukia and I'm the host of a really good cry podcast. And I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Ury. Logan is a dating expert, a behavioral scientist, a best-selling author, and someone who is seriously changing the way we think about love and dating. In our conversation, we talk all things dating, that Logan has studied and tested, from what to put in your dating profile, the pictures you should and shouldn't be using, to the conversation starters that actually work, and the huge no-nos that people probably do not realize are reducing their chances of success on apps. Whether you're single, dating, or just trying to be more intentional in love, Logan offers the kind of clarity we all need.

41:49relationships do require work. And the best relationships are people who really work on them together. They're so focused on if I find the perfect person, then I'll have the perfect relationship instead of understanding really that they can choose someone great and then build that relationship together. They don't need to keep searching for perfection. Listen to a really good cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And I was thinking, I don't sell anything. Like I'm a designer and I don't have product. So I said, well, let me think about it. Cause that was like a dream.

42:22Now I'm going to have like a shop within Bergdorf Goodman. And so I went back and I was like, you know what? I have designed a lot of things, like a lot of commissions for some of our projects. And we've done a lot of custom things that we couldn't find and we ended up designing. So within about six months, we designed this incredible space. It was like a little jewel box. And we were in business and I had accessories and it was there for 10 years. It did so well. And it was a really fun thing to do. And, you know, I took as a challenge, like I want to do this. I was so excited. And I, you know, really educated myself on how to, you know, find, you know, fabricators, you know, around the world, a lot of our things were made there in different places.

43:07So it was a, you know, really cool thing. And that got me into having a store. Yeah, it's completely different. Completely different. And I think that's having an open heart and just like riding the wave and being open to like any opportunity. And now we're, you know, designing product and, you know, hotels. I never thought in a million years I'd design a hotel. And, you know, we're now working with a lot of brands doing really like unbelievable cool things um and um so it's like really exciting are there any particular cities in the world that you feel you just constantly gravitate towards or have they changed over the years and what would be some of your memories of going to any of your favorite cities or countries where you discovered something new or something fresh or even something that felt familiar i would say uh going to uh to europe like i love going like the paris flea market is like unbelievable and just any of the european cities like i was in amsterdam this summer and i was in so great and in belgium and there's so many uh incredible artists like these really great emerging artists and when you travel you just see like what's special and and i think it's so important to travel because if you, our world is becoming so same, there's not a lot of, you know, if you look on your Instagram and, uh, you know, in your technology, things are feeling the same.

44:40So it's so important to travel because you really see what are the special materials and the, the inherent designs and craftsmanship that many of these different countries have. So it's very important to get out and see things in person. Absolutely. Kelly, I want to do something intuitive with you seeing as we're both being intuitive so i'm going to look through your beautiful book which i love to do in general anyway and i'm going to pick things that intuitively call out to me okay and then ask you to ask you the story about them how does that sound okay does that sound okay yeah okay there's so much stuff already i saw this picture i fell in love with this actually i was like addicted to this whole space for a second maybe i should ask you to walk me through this because i saw this on your instagram too oh yeah that's a project uh that's in uh california we worked on it with um an architect uh marwan el-sayed and he did the amon in um among giri right yeah and he's just such a uh talent and this is um an anish kapoor artwork, a Jonas Boland chair that is from the eighties.

45:48That chair was stunning. The chair is like sculpture. Yeah. And that's why actually, Jay, like one of the things is, you know, you think you've seen everything. And so for example, like a stiletto heel, you think you've seen every stiletto heel and someone comes out with something that totally blows you away. And it's like a new thing that, that your heart stops. and it's the same thing with a chair and and having like artists find their creative spirit you know that's a three-legged chair and just people continue to to uh design and come up with things that you you've seen you've never seen before and it's the same thing with music like you think you've heard like every kind of rhythm or sample and you just hear something new that just blows you away what about people who think they're like you know kelly i don't have enough money to make a space look good like do you need to spend big in order to create a space that feels good to you no 100 because you can just like i did you can paint a wall and it could be one wall which is actually kind of cool every wall doesn't have to be the same color it makes it more interesting and just have one amazing chair that you love and one light we need light uh light fixture and, and a table and like, let it sit for a while and, and really just, um, that showcases your style.

47:18And it's nice to live in something a little more minimal for a while. Like I used to live where I just had so many things that, you know, I found on my travels and there would just be a lot of stuff and I've kind of changed. I like things that are really like a little more minimal and important and it lets the peace shine and have its own moment yeah i think minimalism is definitely where i feel like i feel our home is quite minimalist there's a lot of empty space everything's very low as well which i really like i know i love like low like some of these like beds and furniture i mean you need like a stool to step on they're so they're so tall and it's and it's the same everything's getting big yes everything like literally i mean we're design designing tabletop and you know we plates like you know they're so much bigger now it's like everything and so well I love really low beds because I think you feel like really low to the ground and it also makes a small bedroom like feel more expansive because it doesn't cut the room in half so that's a good note yeah a bed that's like 12 inches in height and it's so nice I mean, it's very, you know, it's like in Japan, everything's like really low and it doesn't get in the way of windows and it makes your space feel so much more expansive.

48:37These are very good practical tips. I think everyone's going to be getting low beds because of that. This space is spectacular. I don't think I've seen this in real life, actually, with all the tiles and everything. Oh, yeah, that is in Austin where we met. We actually spoke over on the right side there. Oh, hidden behind here. Yeah, so that is a restaurant. And so all those tiles, I was in Portugal and I stumbled upon this shop that had tiles and it was like a 75 year old family owned tile company. And I went inside and I was so moved in this restaurant, the chef that we were designing this restaurant for, it's Mediterranean.

49:16And so the reason why it's very patchwork is because all of these tiles came from different like decades and periods. and so you know many of it's like dead stock and there was seven left or maybe 20 left and so really created this patchwork of all of this you know different color and pattern and and reliefs and it looks you know amazing yeah i love it it's i i didn't i didn't see it that day i think we were what hidden on the other oh we're on the other side right well through them trying to figure that out yeah and it's also like making do with what you have or what you've seen like i could easily gone in this tile store and seen one tile that I absolutely loved and like okay let's just do the entire wall in that but you know having something that that you know okay how can we make this work and make it really interesting and um kind of just you know letting your creative juices flow I think that's what's so beautiful about it is that when we're present and when we're when we observe I find that and I don't know how I started doing it with furniture and things like that but i feel like when you read i think it's just mindfulness training but when you get really present with like looking at even the direction of like the grain lines you know on a piece of uh wood or whether it's looking at like how it's cut or connected or you know and i don't have any of the vocabulary of an interior designer at all or the language or have any skills in the space i can appreciate something that that looks beautiful and so as i'm looking through this Yeah.

50:45And things that are also like imperfect. And if you, you know, if we're skinning, if we're skinning a wall in timber and, you know, you want the hand of it to really show it's like dimensionality and how things are assembled and put together. and it's all, you know, part of the storytelling. And it does, like things that are imperfect are so beautiful, which is kind of crazy because I'm a little bit of a perfectionist. And I'm trying to like, you know, let things go a little more. Like sometimes, like I literally will go to like one of the hotels and I will see the furniture that's out of place.

51:24And people are like, oh God, there's Kelly. Like she's like moving like the furniture. I can tell if things are like two inches off. I mean, I like to keep things like super tight. But sometimes you just have to like let it go. No, I'm with you. My wife and I get into this all the time. I will rearrange our dining chairs around the table every night just because I like Oh my God, I totally am that person. Yeah. My wife's like, what are you doing? I'm like, no, these are just too close. And I can't appreciate this space because of this. I'm totally like that. So I get that. And I told my boys, I'm like, listen, I see everything.

51:58Like you'll never like pull anything over on me. Yeah, I see everything. I love it. This piece I saw, I loved it from the moment I saw it. I mean, it looks spectacular. Yeah, so this is in the hotel that's in downtown and it's a pool suite because the building is a historic building and it used to, in one of its lives, be a YMCA. And so in order to get the historic tax credits, you have to keep a lot of the programming there. So there was a pool and it's quite, it's like a 30, 40 foot pool. And so it's a three bedroom suite and it has its own kitchen. So, you know, you can stay in this, you know, really incredible.

52:40I mean, this is an experience that you'll really rarely get. And that's what we like to do is like, you know, give people an experience and something that they can take an incredible memory home with them. Wow. I mean, there's, I could stop at every page. So I'm really trying to be intuitive, as I said. yeah and you have to go to the Santa Monica proper yes I've been there before oh you've been there no I've been there it's beautiful no I've been there I've had uh I've been I've been there for birthdays and events and yeah that that space is spectacular downstairs upstairs I've been on the rooftop as well so it's a really beautiful space I love the use of like plants and nature like to me these kind of spaces of course these kind of spaces are really special with like this kind of composition but that feels similar to the first one i showed you i think but when people are trying to do plants in their home how should they think about it because i feel like that's something that people try hard and struggle with keeping them alive is one thing but what about in terms of placement you know like that is where having something that if you have a really amazing incredible yeah that's that's so great well we are so fortunate to work with some amazing talents And, but I actually love going to the nurseries and seeking out these unbelievable specimens that have, that are imperfect and that really transform your interior.

54:00And I think too, like less is more, although I do love, you know, we're working on a project where there's a solarium and there's, there's so many, you know, incredible, you know, plants and different colors of green and the pots. And it just tells like a really beautiful story. And that project, that is an artwork. It's a vase. The chair, do you see? Yeah, this is probably one of my favorite rooms you've ever done. Like I love this room. Yeah, so that's the grotto. And the grotto actually, the inspiration, it's a library. When we were working on this hotel, I wanted an intimate space where people could go and have a meeting and hang out.

54:41and this is a hotel that's in Santa Monica. And so it's like Mary time. I mean, that was the inspiration. And so I went to a friend's parents' house and they were an older couple and they live in Malibu. And I remember walking in their home and being so inspired because they had this incredible artwork and they had a library and all of these things that they're a well-traveled couple that they've collected their whole life. And it just felt so real and represented them. And so this room, the grotto, we called it, we brought in a lot of emerging artists from Los Angeles. And then we also found a lot of vintage pieces as well.

55:20And it's just a great place that you can have a meeting. And it's like being in a grotto. Yeah, little podcast studio right there. Yeah, I love it. No, it's beautiful. And like I said, I could go on and on. I'm glad we did that, though, because I love hearing you react and tell us the story behind incredible things. And I'm such a visual person. like it helps to like see to see things because I am like so visual and it's such a you know a big part of you know my spirit and and what I do and that's like when I was doing the master class they were like listen we want you to you know you're going to be you know the teacher and you're just going to talk and I was like but you guys everything is like so visual and tactile and there was like materiality and so much to the story and so um we uh went outside the box and went on some uh site visits yeah so fun yeah absolutely oh oh yeah you actually went out with the we went out yeah that's incredible yeah we went out to um and toured and and i think then people can apply and i think if somebody is not like really skilled at design like they also need to see things as well.

56:28So that helps them, you know, to apply it to, you know, what they're trying to do. Absolutely. And people can actually learn from you directly from the masterclass. So that's, that's a great way of giving people the tools. If you're inspired from today, then hopefully the masterclass will help you piece together all these amazing lessons that Kelly's sharing. Kelly, you didn't, you've said before, or I've learned before that you didn't always plan on being a mom or like you didn't think about it as your natural course, but it's something that, Of course, I've even met some of your children, I believe, as well.

56:58Yes, yes. Yeah, so my, like growing up, you know, my mom worked, my grandmothers both worked. And so having, you know, the white picket fence was not, you know, in my mind. I wanted to work. And I really loved design, you know, from when I was doing my bunny shop when I was seven years old. And really discovering my passion in high school. And just like you, I love graphic design. And that's kind of where it all started from. is going to the flea markets with my mom and seeing all the magazines. And so I really wanted to, to work and be, uh, you know, have a career. And then I met my incredible husband, Brad, and a family was important to him.

57:42And I was like, okay, uh, I got to think about it. You know, I have an open heart. I like, I'm in love with, you know, I'm in love with my husband. And so I said, let's do, we'll have one. We got engaged and, and I got pregnant. That was the most transformational like moment in my life. My family is everything. And kids are like the most like incredible layer to life. And I love what I do, like absolutely love what I do, but it's like, there's nothing like it. And it's like just everything. And yeah, it's the most beautiful thing like my kids are my heroes they teach me like so much about life and you know um and i just had a baby and you know so many people are like oh well you have two older kids and like you know what would you do differently like reflecting and is spend the most amount of time with your kids now because it goes by so fast yeah where how's that how's that been with also of course your ambition and you're working on so many projects, like you've been able to, it sounds like be so present with your kids and not have to give up your passion.

58:52And I think that that's such an important thing that we also need to see as well, because I think in that advice of people thinking, God, I need to spend every time, we kind of let go of the things that you value. How have you, and I don't like the word balance because I don't think that's necessarily what I'm asking. It's almost like, how do you keep passion and presence alive, present with your family, but then your passion, which kind of keeps you alive. How do you keep both alive? It can be a struggle. And what I do is when I'm at work, I'm so present with my team and I go to my studio. Like I love going to my studio.

59:27I'm like in the thick of it with them every day, but I make time for my kids. And obviously there are things that you miss out on. And, you know, know, it's all about prioritizing and having a routine and schedule. And yes, like reflecting, you know, with, with Oliver and Elliot, when they were younger, and this is before there was like zoom meeting and working from home and all that is I miss things. I was traveling and you know, it, it, it broke my heart, but I was also happy. I was happy that I was being fulfilled as a designer and I was living my dream and I am living my dream and, and they see that and, and it makes me an incredible mom because I get to teach them things.

1:00:14But yeah, it's definitely, you know, can be, can be tough. What is the difference between creativity and replication and is replication the thief of creativity? It's, it's such an interesting question. And for me, creativity comes within. It's your soul and it's your stylistic voice. And replication is looking outward. So what maybe inspires you to design a certain way? And, you know, for example, replication can inform creativity. And if we're designing a front desk of a hotel and the functionality works so well, we're going to incorporate that, but then we're going to give it a new spirit by skinning it with another material.

1:01:11So that's where the replication comes into play. But creativity truly comes from within. And it's an artist or a designer or a chef. It's like it's their creative voice. when when you were on the journey towards this successful career you have now were there moments of experiencing burnout where it's like okay i'm taking this project on okay well i've got another project but oh no they want me to do the whole house and oh my gosh now i've got another one and i feel like a lot of creators today especially online feel a lot of burnout because they feel like they have to keep up with their own success they may have had an overnight moment which led to more work, which is exciting, but equally challenging.

1:01:53Even during the pandemic, there were so many companies that went through their biggest scaling, but also led to people having to work harder and longer. So how have you thought about burnout? Saying no is just as important to saying yes. And there are projects that I really wanted to take, but it just would have just over-endated and stressed the studio. And so timing is everything. And I know there's going to be other projects that will be on the horizon, but you want to do a great job. I'm personally so involved in every aspect of my business. I'm in my studio every day, providing the creative leadership to the team.

1:02:35I'm involved in the business. I'm involved in every aspect of the studio. And so you really have to kind of pick and choose like the right time. Yeah. How do you trust that the next project will come? I think that's so brave and thoughtful that you're like, look, I want to do a great job. I'm only going to take these few projects. I get it. I have to say no, even though I'm so in love with this, but I trust that the right projects will come. How did you kind of build that sense of trust? Because I think a lot of us fear that, oh no, maybe I'll never get an opportunity again if I miss this one.

1:03:10So how did you have that more open mindset that yes, I trust? Well, because it came from the mistake of taking on at one point I took on a lot of work and I just remember just, Oh my God, I cannot wait for these projects. It was, we were doing three hotels at one time and some residential projects. And so of course I'm like, well, we're just going to hire more people, but you have to be so in tune with your team. And when you have a lot of new team, it takes like a year or so for them to really get in sync with what's going on in the studio, how it operates, what's the, the, the philosophies. And so making the mistake of taking on too much.

1:03:51And I remember it was a really like, you know, stressful time. And I was burning the midnight oil and, uh, you know, and the team was, And then you lose a team because they're burnt out. And, you know, that's, you know, terrible. And so really from those mistakes, I learned to pace myself. Do you ever turn off? When I sleep. That's good. When I sleep and I hit the pillow so hard and I'm out and I have the Oura Ring, which I love. So I know I sleep very well. But, yeah, when I sleep is when I completely turn it off. And, uh, but then I dream design. I really, I dream design. It's amazing. I'll wake up and I'm like, Oh my God, I wish I had turned the corner to see like what was next or so, um, but sleep and I go a million miles a minute and I love it.

1:04:44I would not have it any other way. I love, I'm not like a great person with a lot of free time. I love being busy. I mean, tell us about some of your dreams. Do you, have you ever invented, created, curated in your dreams and taken something out of it? a hundred percent like there was um like the staircase actually in austin i love that staircase like that was like kind of a moment of something that that i dreamed about and and the pottery and it's kind of like not something you would traditionally see like a really big staircase in a new you know contemporary architecture and um so that was something that that i dreamed about and like the other night i was having a dream that i was in a house and there was like this really amazing light fixture that had all of these, um, um, like, uh, strings of some sort with these small little, uh, lights.

1:05:35And it was like, really, it was like very artistic, like it's in my mind's eye and we'll see where it comes up and the design. But yes, I, I do dream design. I love that. That's, that's wonderful to hear because yeah, it just shows how obsessed you are and how immersed you are in the world that it's, it's even happening in your dreams and that staircase it's so it's so amazing though and i love that it's dream but also it's being visual because i see so many images like all day because when we're doing concept presentations like we're constantly curating images to help uh present our story and the concept to to the client and so i just have like this library of like images constantly going through my head so i know that obviously is the inspiration for my brain yeah and i love the dream to design because when i'm reacting to that staircase people like jay it's a staircase relax but it really does spark so much joy like i look at it and i go wow like you know and so it's amazing how design from your dream can actually spark moments of awe which are so nice to experience when you're just walking around doing your daily tasks you know so it's special i i want to ask you a question kelly around artists valuing their work or even creatives or coaches or experts or whatever it may be i think so many of us and i get this question a lot jay i don't feel confident enough to charge what i think i'm worth like people forget the amount of time they trained people forget the amount of time they worked it becomes really hard to come up with an hourly rate or a project rate or a piece of art, right?

1:07:14I have friends who are artists who are constantly like not knowing how to charge. How did you make sense of how you wanted to price yourself and how do you encourage people to figure out how they price themselves? What things could they think about in order to do that? Well, it all has to do with if you really want to be involved in the project. For example, we just had this happen. There's a really amazing project that's in Asia that I'd love to be part of. and our fee was too high. And I know I'm going to be very involved, but I really want to take the project. And so the client came back and was like, how can we make this work?

1:07:50So I think it's like communication and, uh, you know, and really, uh, you know, both parties valuing each other's worth. And, uh, so I think just being a really, you know, great communication and we'll have, uh, you know, some emerging artists that I know are struggling and they're just getting started and we want to bring them on to a project for a commission. And, you know, we'll figure out ways like can we internally help them get to a place where it's not going to be as time consuming. So I think there's really many different ways that communication is key. How did you go about creating your first pricing structure?

1:08:29Because I feel like when someone's starting out as a creative, as a designer, as an artist, they can struggle so much with their self-worth and what their value is, but they don't want to miss out on the client. And so how would you encourage someone to think about pricing themselves and how did you do it? I really wanted the job. Like my first project, I really wanted a job. And as I said, I didn't work for a design studio, so I didn't know really how to charge. And so I asked them, I said, what do you feel comfortable paying me to do this project? And they told me, and I was like, wow, and and so I came back to them with something I found you know thought was fair and we met in the middle but I was doing I really wanted the project and so you know that is one of the projects that I actually did the painting myself and if you know this is a stepping stone in your career then maybe you do take less for it I think you have to like look at all the um the different factors in, in how you charge and is it, you know, for a friend, is this going to be a big step in your career or, um, or is this something that, uh, you know, is going to take a lot of time on your part and your team's part and you have to charge accordingly.

1:09:48Yeah. And I think that honesty, that's it. That what you just shared there is really smart. And I want people to really listen to that. Is it a favor for a friend? Is it a project because it's just so epic? You don't get to do things like that is it actually just going to take a lot of your time and it's not that epic like it's just work which level is it because that's going to affect how you price yourself and i'd also add that i found that when people are coming up with their hourly rate they're usually thinking about how much an hour is worth but really it's not about your hourly rate it's about the hours it took to get there so for you to learn the skills you have the hours it took for you to make it as simple or as accessible or as useful as it did to that individual, whatever it is you're offering.

1:10:33Of course, it includes the hard costs of materials and things like that. But really, you're charging for how much someone values that time or effort or work. And in these circles, it can be hard to understand. And I think looking at other people that you aspire to be like or people that are in your fields can help you find that middle ground. but again i love what you said about figuring out where it ranks in the order of yeah and most clients and are like reasonable and if you if you really lay out like it's going to take me this amount of hours or it's going to take a year to get this done and it's like this you know uh this much of a team and on also the skill set because if you're if you're going to bring someone on you know that they have an incredible skill set they're going to save you time but they're also going to save you money at the end because a mistake is money.

1:11:30And so is it worth to pay someone up front who knows exactly what they're doing and how to operate? Absolutely. That was great. Kelly, it's been such a joy talking to you today. And I'm glad that we've, this has been a very unique episode. We've been reacting to beautiful pictures in your book. I've loved hearing about your stories as well of just, you know, the steps that it's taken to build this phenomenal career that you're having. And I love that you still feel like you're just at the beginning, which is such a great mindset to have. But as you know, as a fan of the podcast, we end every episode with a final five.

1:12:00And you have to answer all these in one word or one sentence maximum. But I always digress. So let's start with the final five. All right, question one is, what is the best design advice you've ever heard, received, or given? Diversity. Hmm, of everything. I'll let you expand now. diversity of scale of eras materiality because you don't want to buy all your furniture in one place and so many people do they'll go to one place and buy other furniture because they're in a rush and so diversity is like so so important good advice all right so don't don't buy everything from ikea uh trust me i i know yeah i've done that many times all right got it uh second question what is the worst design advice you've ever heard received or given that a project has to be done in such a short amount of time that you're forced to buy everything right now good advice because Because you want to curate everything over time.

1:13:13So it's meaningful. I made that mistake earlier this year and we didn't, luckily I didn't go through with it, but the house was finished and I wanted to do art. And that's the thing you should least rush. But there was so much a part of me that was like, I'm just tired of looking at blank walls and I wanted to feel inspired in this space. And I was quickly looking at collections and everything. Luckily my wife is, so I'm a very decisive, quick person and my wife is like really slow and will never make a decision if she doesn't have to. And so we balance each other out really well because I'll be like, yeah, I think this will fit there.

1:13:45And she'll be like, no, I don't think so. And then we'll sit with it. And I think this idea of sitting with things is such a great, you mentioned it multiple times in this conversation. And I've learned that skill through working on my own home that sitting with something is the most important thing. But often we think once we've bought it and put it together, we have to keep it. And luckily there is a refund policy and a return policy. You can give things back. And I think it's interesting. The idea of sitting with something is something we struggle to do. We think once we bought it, we have to keep it or we didn't buy it.

1:14:17Well, everything's just so fast now. Everything just is like going a million miles a minute. And you feel like you have to get something done. And it's such an exciting process of like you're curating things that you're going to put into your home. but you know take the long road home. Question three I know you do a lot of health and fitness is a big priority in your life in order to how does that affect your creativity? I come up with a lot of ideas it's just it's unbelievable having just this it's active meditation for me where I can just cleanse my my brain and uh and a lot of things come to me when i want to run and uh and i love to sauna as well yeah it's my active meditation and when you create this clear space in your brain it allows for creativity and is running your main form of that or is that and sauna or are there others or is that your main yeah no i do uh i do a little bit of everything i like to change it up because you want to surprise your body, just like you always want to surprise your audience.

1:15:25It's the same thing with you and me in design. And so surprising your body is so important. So I'll do Pilates, cardio, strength training, like mobility work, like a little bit of everything. And I love playing tennis and also Padel. I love Padel. Padel is so fun. Padel is so cool. I keep missing your tennis parties. I'm so upset with myself. I love tennis too. And whenever you invite me, I'm out of town or traveling. it makes me so sad we just put in a padel cord our house and it's so much fun it's such a great like social um sport with the glass walls with the glass walls and we played the first time uh last year we went to brazil and they're all over there yes and uh it's so much fun i got into it in dubai and so dubai has really taken off and then i played it in miami but it hasn't taken off in la because pickleball has so i've been playing pickleball but padel is we just this weekend met this guy who's a padel uh he's from spain he's like a padel expert he's a teacher and he told us there are 11 courts in in los angeles where they're like they're at people's homes there's actually one ironically on santa monica like near um uh like by the peninsula hotel like a really random place but it's such a it's such a fun sport and i like it because it's a little more like skill and um uh a little more challenging it's a little more unpredictable than pickleball for sure because you've got to be great at physics to play padel yes no it's like chess it's like active chess it's like so um yeah it's so fun and social and really uh social absolutely all right question four and five last two questions question four what's the first thing you think about when you look at a space to bring it to life what's outside the window interesting walk us through that it's like what is outside the window so important because it's part of your interiors like you have to look at it is it's like your first piece of art in the room so is it a tree is it another building across the street um is it the mountains you know it's so important to to the space wow that i did not expect that there you go you know and and how how do you use that to info what goes on inside?

1:17:41Well, if we're selecting, like we were working on a project in New York and there was a terracotta building outside the window. And so like, it was, there are large windows. There was five of them that go across this elevation. And so it's really, it's like a large piece of art in the room. So we need some, something that really speaks to, to the window and, and the materiality on the building. And so we had to consider it. And so it's really, you know important part of design what is some i'm digressing here from the final five but what's what are some of the biggest mistakes you think we make when it comes to setting up our spaces and our rooms what are some things to avoid that people can look out for like one thing that i love that i think a lot of people um like for small spaces mirror goes so such a long way and it actually really feels good.

1:18:34Like there's great feng shui in mirror and where it's placed is so important. And, uh, it not only creates a window, if you have one window in your room, like we're working on a hotel project in Lake Tahoe and, you know, we're using, you know, really beautiful millwork and incorporating mirror and like the transformation of the room and what it does to the space is, is unbelievable. Wow. Yeah. That's a great note. But, but I would say to the, the furniture, like really low seating just is makes your space seem so much more expansive and lighting is so important. And like one thing, like we really avoid is like just directional downlights.

1:19:17You have to be so careful that they're not overseeding areas because you know, we have people and come to the hotel we want people to look like great and feel amazing and um so lighting is like really i think underestimated and um should be really considered got it all right great answers all right fifth and final question if you could create one design law that everyone in the world had to follow what would it be really understand what your style is and frequent museums and galleries and go out and see what things say to you because you're going to discover something that you didn't know was inside you that's going to make your interior represent who you are i think that's great life advice and design advice it's it's knowing who you are and and and allowing enough input i definitely found that when when we moved from london to new york and then from new york to la it was just i just got exposed to so much more than i'd ever been exposed to and that exposure is what also helped define and edit who you were and who you wanted to be and you're constantly changing like the more you see like i look at projects i did 20 years ago and they're they're great and but they're different than how i would approach things now just taking your time it's like so important and i go my a million miles a minute and i get excited about things and i want things to happen now and but really it's like taking your time like pace is everything well kelly thank you for your time today and thank you for being so present and gracious and kind and thank you for being so trusting of me i've loved having this conversation with you and i hope that everyone who's been listening or watching has found some inspiration some sparks and creativity to help enliven and and uh bring to life their spaces because i i really do believe design can make you happy i really do believe that design and aesthetics in our spaces can define how we feel and how we move and the emotions that we go through And design too, Jay.

1:21:31Is there something else about design that we're speaking that is very more aesthetic, but it also makes our lives easier. And that's something that continues to get better and better, which is going to give us more time. And so not only the aesthetic of design, but also the functionality, which is really critical. Give us an example of that, because that's a great, great point. And we didn't talk about that. Tell us a bit more about how we can think about our spaces functionally in order to make them easier as well. What have you found or what little tips have worked for you for that? Well, in our studio, we're actually working with AI.

1:22:13And after, like during the holidays and, you know, the fall when OpenAI announced the, you know, generative intelligence and what it can do. I just listened to a lot of podcasts and read up on it. And I was like, I'm going to implement this in my studio in some way. And obviously you can't go full force into it. So I, in each department, I have like a director and we're using it every day. And it's been like really profound and really inspirational. And it's not designing spaces for us, but it is actually generating ideas that we can implement into a project and something that maybe we never thought of.

1:22:55And, you know, and I tell the team, I'm like, listen, this is like you have like a junior designer by your side that can help implement. And I'm super bullish on AI. And what it's doing for my business is unbelievable. And we're only like at the surface. and soon we're not going to have just a junior designer. Everyone's going to have a senior designer working for them. And it's not going to take away what we do because you got to have somebody driving the ship. But it's fascinating and love it. Yeah, no, I love hearing you embrace that because I think so many people get scared like, oh no, like people can just design their rooms by AI.

1:23:33But I think when you're confident and conscious of what you're doing, what do you think, what parts do you think it's going to help replace and help solve versus what parts do you think you're like well wait a minute my brain will always be able to you know do this part uh it's it's just generating like idea generation but also like photoshop and how quickly that you can get things done now so maybe we can take on a certain amount of work a year but it's going to enable us to probably take on more projects and be more efficient with our time and then when you're more efficient with your time your team's more happy because then they have free time.

1:24:11So I think it's going to make our, and this is, I'm not an expert in AI. I'm just telling you how I'm using it and my studio using it, but it's going to benefit us in so many ways and helping give us more free time and idea generation, which is great because it's like having a new person on your team, a new creative spirit on a project every day, which is which is unbelievable which is unbelievable yeah that's great i love it well thank you again kelly thank you so much this is so wonderful i hope you yeah you're amazing and i and thanks for having me and i'm so happy to be here finally with you and uh and you're uh you're amazing oh you're so kind well i'm glad that we keep uh deepening our friendship and i'll never forget the first time i met you and how kind and sweet you were to me so thank you so much and i'm glad that you know the book's available i'm glad that i'm glad that we're drinking from your glasses this is this is spectacular these are beautiful i can't wait to shop the whole collection thank you so much if you love this episode you'll enjoy my interview with dr daniel amon on how to change your life by changing your brain if we want a healthy mind it actually starts with a healthy brain you know i've had the blessing or the curse to scan over a thousand convicted felons and over a hundred murderers and their brains are very damaged.

1:25:40This is an iHeart Podcast.