Lori Gottlieb ON: How to Set and Keep Better Boundaries & Ways to Know if You Are Settling in Relationships

27:10A lot of that's coming from personal trauma. It's very hard to make sense of that when you first meet someone and you're dating someone, you're almost meeting the, you are meeting the best version of them because it's the one they're portraying or the one that they want you to see. And then naturally you spend longer with someone, you see them stressed, you see them angry, you see them upset. You start seeing all of this other 360. I guess the question is, how do we allow for the fact that we're less likely to meet someone who is the finished product, but at the same time, give ourselves enough time to not feel too deep or fall too hard?

27:46Yeah, I think about that saying in the first three months of a relationship, you're not you, you're the ambassador of you. So it's very hard to know and everybody's on their best behavior. But I think that people, you know, you're still having a lot of deep discussions in those first three months because you feel this incredible vulnerability and intimacy. And people will tell you a lot of things that maybe you don't want to hear. So they are these red flags and you kind of block them out. You think, oh, well, that's okay. Or I'm not going to pay attention to that. You project onto them who you want them to be as opposed to who they actually are.

28:20And I think that what you said about we grow in relationship is so true. I think that people grow so much more in couples therapy than they might even in individual therapy because you are forced to contend with another person that you're coming up against. And I really feel like, A, you have to listen to those, to those everything that they tell you, the good, the kind of questionable, all of it. And just say, what does that mean? And you can even think about, well, let me get more information about that. What did they mean when they said, oh, they don't really want kids? Like, what does that mean?

28:55Does that mean now? Does that mean ever? What does that mean? You have to listen to these things. You know, what does that mean where they talk really, really, you know, with a lot of aggressive language about a parent, for example? That means that, yes, maybe that parent really disappointed them and maybe there was a lot of trauma, but how have they sort of processed that and where are they with processing that? because if that's still so raw to them, that will come out in your relationship with them. You might not think that's going to come out toward you, but it will, right? We marry our unfinished business.

29:33So I think you really have to look out for that. So no, you're not looking for like a person who has all the answers. I don't think anybody ever has all the answers, but you're looking for willingness to show up, willingness to take responsibility, willingness to apologize, that's huge. And also willingness to bring things up. And are you willing to hear what the other person has to say? So a lot of times when I'm seeing a couple and someone will say, oh, this person never brings things up. I'm less interested in the fact that they don't bring it up. And I'm more interested in why, what are you afraid of?

30:09Why can't you talk to your partner? And they might say, when I have brought things up, my partner tries to talk me out of the way that I feel. When I try to bring things up, my partner tries to tell me I'm wrong. When I try to bring things up, my partner shuts down. When I try to bring things up, my partner yells. When I try to bring things up, my partner acts like they don't like me anymore. Right? So then they say, okay, I'm not going to bring things up. So then we need to talk about, well, this is a dance that the two of you are doing. It's not just that this person is avoidant. It's that you are inviting the avoidance.

30:47So no one's to blame here. It's just that you guys are doing a dance and you both have to change your dance steps if you want to change the dynamic in the relationship. I think a lot of our inflexibility leads to this binary thinking of, oh my gosh, if they've got issues with their parents, then I can't be with them. Or if they've got this, I can't be with them. And I think, or if they're like this, then I should be with them. And I almost feel like there's that middle ground of just, no, I just, these are things I need to be aware of. And then I can still be in a relationship or choose not to, but I feel like there's a lot of binary decision-making based on small data points.

31:26Yes. Because we are so scared by our own trigger or by our own pain that comes from that, that we can easily write something off that may just need a little more work. Yeah. I don't know if that, if you agree, you can disagree completely. That's just, I'm just sharing what my thoughts are at least. Oh yeah, I agree. A great example of that is I was seeing a couple and he had a lot of issues with authority because his father really kind of misused authority as he was growing up. So that's a big trigger for him and he's really working on it. So if he wasn't working on it, that would be different, but he's really working on it.

31:59But sometimes things happen And so his partner had this beautiful, we came up with in couples therapy, a beautiful way for her. You know, when you can see the childhood wounds and you can help, they're working on it. So you're not solving it for them, but you can support them in some way. So if she saw him out in public, maybe getting triggered by something, it wouldn't happen often. If it happened a lot, that would be a problem. She would just put her hand on his arm like that. and it just calmed his nervous system. And it brought him to the present. It was such a beautiful thing that she could do for him.

32:35And she had stuff from childhood and he knew, oh, I can see the little girl in her right now. I have so much compassion instead of getting frustrated by it. So much compassion for the little girl. I know this about her and here's what I can do for her in that moment. These shorthands, these little things that you can do to kind of help someone instead of going from zero to 60, just go from like zero to five and then be like, oh, and I can come back down. We think we can see where our partner's triggers are and what their weaknesses are, especially if you get to know them better. And you start to think, oh yeah, I know that his mom talks to him like that.

33:10And so that's why he's talking to me like that because he's taking that stress out on me. That's useful, but often we don't look at that as context and compassion and empathy, we look at that as how does he not get it? Or how did they not get it? That that's where it comes from. And we almost want our partner to like learn the lesson or it's so obvious, how can you not see it? And here you are talking about like a gentle touch on the arm that helps someone calm their trigger. How do you help each other understand your triggers in a way that doesn't trigger you? Because I feel like it's such a sensitive conversation to have.

33:47And because some people are self-unaware and some are self-aware, or you're seeing things in others, but you can't see it in yourself. How do you have healthier conversations around, hey, do you know why we're behaving this way? Do you know why we're talking like this? Yeah. We just had a beautiful episode on the podcast. So on our podcast, Dear Therapist, we bring people on for actual sessions and then we give them homework to do. And then they tell us how it went at the end of the session. We had this young couple on and her trigger was weight, that she wanted to, she was trying to set a boundary, but it was a very difficult boundary.

34:26It was, you know, sometimes we think about boundaries as I'm going to make this request and you're going to do it. And if you don't do it, then you have broken my boundary. That's not how boundaries work. Boundaries are about, and I think this is a really important point related to this, which is that when you set a boundary, you're deciding for yourself what you will do, not what the other person will do. So you can say to the other person in her case, I don't like it when you talk about weight, because that's a big trigger for me. Growing up, that was something that was always talked about. I don't want to talk about dieting.

34:57I don't want to talk about people's weight or people's appearance. That really bothers me. But it got to the point where he couldn't say anything about, you know, like it was too restrictive of a boundary. And so they would argue about this because then you're just like, I'm just not going to say anything because I never know what's going to trigger you. Her boundary could have been, I'm going to ask him not to say a reasonable number of things about weight, but there are certain things that he might say, and I'm going to have to maybe leave the room or I'm going to self-regulate or I'm going to have a mantra for myself.

35:28That's what I'm going to do. They would argue about this. And what would happen is she would, you know, we had to get to sort of what was underneath this. And she finally discovered, it's like, I need more affirmation. I need more like, just flirt with me during the day. Or, you know, and he said, I need that too. And so we gave them this homework assignment where they just had to do one very subtle flirtation, you know, just once a day. And she left a little note on the bathroom mirror and he said, oh my God, that made me feel the whole day. I was so excited. It is these tiny things. And so then she was less triggered when like food would come up because he was so much about like, you look beautiful.

36:12And she said, you always say, when I get my eyebrows done, you're like, dang. And she's like, why won't you do that with other things? I don't want to have to get my eyebrows done. Right. And he was like, oh my God, I think you're so beautiful. I should be saying that more. So it just, it just realizing, you know, what is the trigger really about? And then how can you as a partner support that. Yeah. And I just want to reemphasize that point. If anyone missed it, it's like boundaries are not to control other people's actions towards you there to control your own actions based on what others do to you.

36:43Right. And the important part about boundaries is maintenance, by the way. So it's not just one time. It's let's say that you say to someone, you know, if you, um, if you yell at me, if you raise your voice, I'm going to end the conversation. We had this on the podcast with someone else. A father was kept talking to his daughter about, when are you going to get married? When are you and your boyfriend going to get married? And she said to him, if you bring that up, I'm going to end the conversation. I'm going to leave the room because I want to have fun with you when I'm with you. And this just makes it really stressful.

37:14And so every time, it had to be an every time he mentions that, you say, dad, just reminder, we'll talk another time. And if you don't do that, if you don't do it consistently, like let's say that you do it 10 times, but then one time you like let that conversation continue. The person thinks, oh, I can still talk about this because they're not going to leave the room. They're not going to end the conversation. So again, it's what you do. You have to hold the boundary every single time for yourself. And the other person is going to realize at a certain point, if I want to be in that person's presence, I can't bring this up because every single time they're going to leave.

37:51And I think that's the mistake we make. We break our own boundaries in order to show our care or to be seen as a good person or whatever it may be. But that ends up setting us up for more failure because now that person thinks they can cross the boundary as well because we're doing it anyway. Yes. Yes. Boundaries are just such a fascinating thing because I find them so useful in so many areas of my life. But I think you just hit the nail on the head that it's our own letting our guard down about our own boundaries that actually allows people to think they can break them anyway. It's not about them breaking them down.

38:30Like if you stay pretty strong on that, I mean, people can still do what they want, but at least you'll know where you stand with them. I remember a small example of what you just said. I remember whenever I'd go back to London, because I'd like to see my family there, there'd be certain members of my family who'd always say to me, oh, you're only back for 30 days. And then I'd see them the week after and they'd be like, oh, you're only got 21 days left. And I'd just be like, guys, I'm back for 30 days. Like, you know, and I had to draw a boundary around just, and it sounds so small and silly, but it isn't because I didn't like hearing that because I was like, let's just be really grateful for this present moment.

39:06Like let's have the best time. We're together right now. And I don't want to sit here and think about how many days I have left. Again, it can be so small, but it can be so important to you. But I have to honor that. Okay. If you bring up time again, then X, Y, Z is going to happen or whatever it may be. Yeah. And the other thing about boundaries is that people think that boundaries separate you. The point of the boundary is to bring you closer. It's, I can be in, I want to be in relationship with you, but we need to have these boundaries. I remember somebody wrote into the column, a parent wrote in and said, my daughter has all these boundaries about how many times I call her during the day.

39:41And she said, you know, I want, I'm setting a boundary. And he wrote in and said, I don't want to have a boundaried relationship. And I wrote back and I said, every relationship is a boundaried relationship. You can't just do whatever you want in a relationship. All relationships have boundaries. It's like, it's kind of like the difference between being in an ocean with no boundaries or being in a fishbowl where the boundaries are too tight and people can't live, you want to be in an aquarium in relationship, right? So there's enough room for each person to kind of have their space, but it's not so constrained that like everybody's walking on eggshells and it's not so open like an ocean where there's, you can just do whatever you want.

40:20Yeah. Well said. I like that analogy. And I think that the important thing about the boundary is when you set the boundary, It's saying, I want to be closer to you. I want to be in relationship with you. But if you keep doing that, it's going to push me away. So please don't mention this, right? Don't criticize me. Don't talk about whether I'm married because that's going to make me go farther away. I want to be close to you. And actually that is a sign of closeness because if someone actually learns about your boundaries, they actually are learning about some of the most intimate details about you.

40:54Because if you're saying this triggers me or this makes me feel upset or this really gets to me, you're actually displaying vulnerably something that's so significant and meaningful to you. And so it should bring you closer to someone else. It's like that person actually values and respects you so much to actually open up and share with you a weakness or a pain point. Yeah, I saw some friends on the podcast we were doing and they came together and they were saying like, I set some boundaries and the other person thinks that I don't want to be friends. And no, what you're saying is I want this friend.

41:30They'd been friends since childhood and things change, things evolve as you move into adulthood and you move into family life and your different stages of life, whatever they might be. And this person was like, I am doing this because I want to, our friendship matters to me. It's important. And once the other friend heard that, the boundaries were fine. It was that this person thought, oh, you're trying to dump me. And she's saying, no, I'm doing the opposite. I'm trying to keep our friendship alive. Yeah. Radhi, you know how much we value mindful living and personal growth, but finding the perfect gift that reflects that can be tough.

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43:44Certified to operate by Chev. One thing I've been reflecting on lately is how even the smallest choices can create a big impact over time. Whether it's choosing to spend a quiet night in to recharge or making a decision that brings you closer to a long-term goal, those moments of intention really matter. And when it comes to the choices we make with our money, that same mindset applies. I've learned that saving for the things that truly matter like your first home or a reliable car starts with small, thoughtful decisions That's why I appreciate what State Farm is doing with their personal price plan It gives you the power to personalize your plan and create an affordable price that works for your life You can bundle your home and auto insurance in a way that supports your journey and your goals Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan.

44:40Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. And I think that's part of the communication. I feel like there's a need for whoever you are, if you're the person in the relationship that's almost to some degree guiding this conversation, it's important for you to clarify why you're setting the boundary i think often we just say this is what i want to do and we kind of announce it and it's more of an announcement than it is a setting of a boundary and it's so much more powerful when someone says to you hey i actually really value our relationship and i think this is going to bring us closer and that's why i'm actually being really vulnerable with you and i'm sharing with you this is how i feel when you do this and it'd mean the world to me if if we were able to shift this or this is how i'm probably going to behave if this happens but that kind of casing that sometimes our communication needs to be in it it demands a lot of us and i i get this feedback from a lot of people when we're talking to them on the podcast and through my books and everything is that people feel like they're often the one carrying the torch to help this maturity develop in a relationship and a lot of people are quite exhausted by it.

46:02They're like, well, gosh, I'm like trying to help us set boundaries. I'm the one like setting agreements. I'm the one who's like encouraging us to be positive and it can get really exhausting carrying the torch. What do you say to people who feel that way right now? Where they're like, you know what, Laurie, I'm trying to be curious with my partner. I'm trying to do this. I'm with my friends. I'm like the one setting up this, but like I'm exhausted now. And so I don't know how long I can do it for. And I just want them to step up. So often what we'll see is if that person will come to couples therapy, we'll find out either the person doesn't want to step up and you keep asking them to do something they are not interested in doing.

46:43And so that just, you know, so, so the question I would ask the person who's feels like they're holding the burden of it all is why are you trying so hard? Why are you in this? You know, like what, what is, how is this serving you? Because this is so hard. You're not happy. Why are you, why do you remain, why are you trying to get this person to do something? Why don't you find someone who is willing and interested in the kinds of things that you're interested in, in a relationship? And so then there's some, usually some old stuff there about, you know, what we call repetition compulsion, which is trying to, you find someone who is unwilling to give you what you need or want, which is maybe some old stuff.

47:22And then you, then you think like, I'm going to do it with this person because this time I'll win. This time I can make it happen. I couldn't make it happen when I was a child, but this time I'll win, except you won't win. It doesn't happen that way. The way you win is you let go of that. You grieve what you didn't get. And then you go find it in someone without trying to change them. So you're not trying to win anything. It's already there. But another reason, another thing that might happen is this couple comes to couples therapy and the person says, I'm not showing up because the other person is so controlling.

47:53This person has tried to control everything. They're trying to set every role. They're trying to manage every aspect of our lives. And there's no room for me and my thoughts and how I want things to go. And when I say I want this, they say, no, you're wrong. No, it can't be that way. It's my way. This is the way. This is, I'm the healthy person. You're the not healthy person. And that doesn't feel good either. Yeah. It requires so much self-excavation to just see whether we're being that person or we can often so get lost in our holier than thou and kind of this feeling of like, oh, I'm so emotionally mature and I'm so self-aware and I'm doing the work and I know the language.

48:34and all of a sudden, actually we're being so evangelical that the person that we're speaking to is kind of feeling like they have no say or no impact or no involvement. One of the scenarios that came up in this conversation while we were preparing for this podcast was this couple, the woman earns more than the man and she doesn't have an issue with it. She's very comfortable with it. She didn't care. she wasn't she that wasn't a big priority for her it wasn't a deal breaker for her but it's really triggering to him and he's uncomfortable with that and so if the topic of money comes up or budgeting comes up he often tries to yeah he gets very uncomfortable about it it can it can make him can make him angry it can make him upset she's trying to figure out how does she help him become more confident and comfortable and happy about who he is and not feel this pressure that he feels potentially coming from his family or his upbringing as well?

49:41Yeah. This would be a great thing for them to talk about in couples therapy and really get it sort of what does money represent to them? Does it represent self-esteem, fame acceptance, love, power, lack of power. Money represents so many things. I think people, when they talk about money, if they talk about money in their relationships, it's such a sensitive topic. They tend to talk about it in, on the content level, like let's make a budget or why, why did you spend money on that? Right. And they're not really talking about how do we both feel about money? What was money like in our households when we grew up?

50:16What were the messages that we got around money. Some people got really mixed messages. You know, money is good. Money is bad. We have money. We don't have money. Value judgments. It's okay to spend money on this, but not on this. And so you bring all of that into your relationship and then the gender roles, of course, right? So what does that represent? What kind of family did you grow up in, in terms of how they thought about gender and power and money and how that changes with culture, with the kind of maybe egalitarian marriage that you want. Those are all conversations they need to have. Not about let's sit down and make a budget, but about all the questions that I was just bringing up.

50:57Those are such great questions. And I know that they work because me and my wife have sat down and looked at that through our marriage. And we've had so many questions about that because we both came from very different financial setups. And our relationship with money was very, very different. I started working very, very young. my wife started working while she was at college and after and just as time grew and our lifestyle changed and things changed there were so many conversations we had to always reset as well it wasn't just like oh we've solved it now we don't talk about money anymore and it's we've had to almost re-evaluate and rethink that topic so many times depending on how many changes there are but I find that those are the questions that I find people avoiding or when they do talk about it, it's always a full-blown argument.

51:43So it's like you said, it's either about budgeting, if they talk about it in a healthy way, or like at least a practical way is probably a better word, or we don't talk about it because you're like so scared to mention it because when you do, it turns into a full-blown argument. And now we're arguing about not even money, we're arguing about something else. I want to help people have the tools to start difficult conversations with people in their life. It could be of mom, It could be a dad. It could be, you know, I feel like all of us avoid, we avoid discomfort in our lives and uncomfortable conversations are one of the biggest ones, whether it's when you're firing someone, when you're giving feedback to someone, when you're trying to be direct with someone, these are such challenging things to do.

52:27How do we sit in the discomfort or how do we prepare for uncomfortable conversations to help them go better? First of all, I think that people are worried that somehow they're being unkind by bringing something up that's uncomfortable. The kindest thing you can do is to have a conversation with somebody that is real and genuine and authentic. I think that the first, the way you start that is you start it with yourself. So before you even get to the other person, you want to be able to say to them, to say to yourself, I'm being really kind and I'm remembering their humanity. And I'm going to have this conversation in an open, generous, curious way.

53:10So I'm not here to set my agenda necessarily. I'm here to be curious about their experience. So we together can come to some kind of understanding about each other that we didn't have before. And I think that's the framework that you come into any hard conversation with. Yeah. And it's almost like, it again comes back down to what we're discussing here today is like framing a conversation. I think we get so lost in like, what are we trying to solve? Yeah. And we're trying to be very logical. And actually it's like, well, no, framing the conversation in the emotion of understanding how people feel about things and where it comes from and what this could lead to is so much more important than actually solving the problem.

53:52Right. And knowing that this is going to be a dialogue, not a monologue. I think that we're like, I have something important to say and you're going to deliver whatever you're going to deliver to them. It's not a monologue. It's not I'm coming to deliver something. It's I'm coming to bring up a topic and I want to hear where the other person is coming from. And you might want to ask them first, like, hey, I know that money has been kind of stressful for us. Can we talk a little bit about it? I'm curious to hear more about what money is, what it means to you, what it was like growing up. I want to share that with you about what it means to me, what it was like for me growing up.

54:29And you could have a really beautiful conversation. The other thing is if it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely. It opens people up to be more vulnerable. Yeah. No, I love this advice. And I really hope everyone who's listening or watching you're going to try and practice some of these. They're so subtle and there's such small insights, but they make such a big difference because it can be a game changer when you approach the same conversation in a completely different way.

55:07And it can transform the trajectory of your relationship with an individual because they have so much more respect for how you handled it too. We just did a podcast episode with a mother and daughter. They've been having the same fight for 25 years. And they came on the podcast and they said, we have never talked about it this way. And it's not because we did something, you know, like unheard of. It was just because they had never been taught to talk about, they've been having literally the same conversation or lack of conversation when, you know, one person would shut the other person out, usually the daughter shutting the mother out.

55:40And they just never talked about it in this other way. And I think so many people think, oh, we have a problem and it's not fixable. Many problems are so fixable. You can heal a lot of things, maybe not in exactly the way you want, but certainly to have more of a relationship than you ever thought possible. All right. I've got so many more for you. I hope you're having fun, Laurie. Sure. Yeah, I love talking about all this stuff. Yeah. It's so fascinating to just dive into these real scenarios that all of you have sent in. And I want to give a big thank you to everyone who on Instagram sent me all of these incredible notes for this episode.

56:17There's a few more here that I really want to get to. So, okay, this, this one's a good one because it kind of relates to something we discussed earlier, but it's, it's a more specific question on when in your mind, do you know when you're settling or you're not settling? How do you know? I think if you're asking yourself that question, that's, that's a really important sign. But I think you need to get clear is, is this something culturally, like the culture has told me that I need to be with someone like this? And whether that's like the greater culture or your specific culture that you grew up in or your family culture, whose voice is it?

57:00I think that's really important that as adults, sometimes we can't tease out our own voice from the voices of people who raised us or the culture even. So I think that's an important question. I also think the question is, are they, you know, when we think about what compromises we have to make with another person, we don't tend to think about what compromises somebody has to make to be with us, which is a really important point. It's not like, it's not like, you know, I think people treat dating like shopping. Like I want this, I'm going to go find this. And it's not like the clothes when you're shopping are going to be like, I don't think you're going to look good in that.

57:40Or I'd rather be with someone who looks differently. Like the clothes are not judging you. Right. But the thing is like when you're going into a relationship with going back to the, you know, we can't order up people a la carte, they can't order up you a la carte either. And we have this weird notion in our culture that like love is loving all the annoying things about me too. No, people are not going to, they're going to love you even though you have these annoying things, but that doesn't mean they're going to love the annoying things. Of course not. So we have this weird idea that this unconditional love, and it's just, they misuse that term.

58:17So I think we have to remember that as we are thinking about this whole human being, this person is choosing us with all of our annoying things, our quirks, our maybe our past that we haven't really worked through, that we're still working through. And, you know, we have this idea that, you know, I'm shopping for someone. You're not shopping for someone. It's, how do I feel with this person? That is the most important question you can ask. How do I feel when I'm with this person? And if you feel you enjoy their company, you feel heard, you feel understood, you feel safe, you, you, um, you're having fun, you're not settling all the rest is just noise yeah yeah i'm i really like those two really powerful points i think so many of our definitions of the perfect partner settling you know whatever it may be comes from a societal parental impact yeah and so what do my friends think of him or what will they react oh no they're gonna know i'm settling and it's like Like, well, no, was that your definition of what a good partner was?

59:22And the second point that you meant there that I love because I do it all the time. Whenever I'm sitting there in my head and I'm thinking, God, I've made so many sacrifices for my wife, I've done this or that. I come up with a list of hers in my head and I'm like, oh, she's made so many. Like, it's such a great activity to do that. When I think about, I often ask people to zoom out and say, you may think, like maybe someone's sitting there going, I do everything financially for a relationship or I do everything physically for this relationship. Like I get the groceries, I do the house cleaning, whatever it may be.

59:53I always ask people to zoom out and go, look at your life physically, financially, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Okay, if you're making all the sacrifices across all five of those, there's something really important to look at. But more often than not, when people zoom out, they go, oh, actually you're right. Like I pick up the slack here and they pick up the slack there. And there's a bit of give and take. Yeah, and I would say also, one exercise to do is describe the relationship from their perspective. Right? Like what are they putting up with really? If they were to, if they were to really talk about, you know, the relationship from their perspective, there would be all these great things and there would be all the sacrifices they're making too.

1:00:32And sometimes we forget about that. Absolutely. All right. I like this one. So there's this person who was let go from their job and decided that she may want to get into comedy because she always had a dream of being a comedian, but doesn't want to feel like she is taking a step back into the service industry in order to pursue her goals that may be very far to reach. She has some trouble with structure and facing the unknown of it all. How do you suggest she structures herself and gives herself tangible benchmarks? I think that people make this binary. I'm either going to pursue my dream and give up everything else, or I'm not going to pursue my dream.

1:01:14And I always say to people, you can have two things going at once. It's a lot safer to say, I'm going to try comedy and I'm going to put everything I have into it, but I'm also not going to maybe leave my job yet. And so I can see whether this really works for me or not before I give up this other thing. So it doesn't have to be so binary. Yeah. I agree with that. I think that, I think too often we make that move too quick. Yeah. If someone comes up to me and goes, yeah, just listen to your podcast and I've decided to make this big switch. I'm like, oh, I don't think I said that. Like, please don't do that.

1:01:49Like, you know, that's definitely not what I'm encouraging. If anything, I'm encouraging this journey of learning about something you love first, experimenting, maybe interning, apprenticeships, shadowing, watch how the job's actually done. Like I'm so much more into an incremental approach to change as opposed to thinking that this big all-in approach is going to suddenly deliver some miraculous reward. If anything, if you go slower, you'll learn more. And then when you do make the big jump, it will actually more likely be more successful. That's right. And I think the other question to ask is, am I moving towards something or am I trying to escape from something?

1:02:27Because sometimes people will just jump into something very impulsively because they want to get out of their situation and they don't do well with uncertainty because most people don't. So they want an answer. so they feel like I can't just leave this other thing that I know is making me unhappy. I don't want to be a lawyer anymore. I don't want to do this job anymore, but I don't know what else to do. So I'm going to do this other thing, but you're not even sure you want to do the other thing yet. So are you escaping or are you moving toward? Yeah, definitely. And I think when we try to escape too soon.

1:02:57Yes, without thinking it through. Yeah, and that's actually been one of the biggest things that I've actually been talking about this a lot lately because I think it's impacted me so much in my life. and I was, it's almost like if you don't like where you are, if you can figure out a way to learn from it, and when I say learn from it, I don't mean some magical life lesson. I mean like thinking about what are the practical lessons I could learn here? What are the things I can get curious about? Sure, I don't like the setup. I don't like my manager, but maybe there's something here that's actually going to benefit me in the future.

1:03:30All of a sudden, I'm not saying that becomes the best job you've ever had, but it doesn't feel as painful while you build the next step. Yes. Whereas this desire to just rush out of pain or again, pain is maybe a strong word, but rush out of a place that you want to escape from, you actually might fall into the same thing again in another way, which we again do in relationships as well. We do that all the time. Somebody is like, I'm going to leave this relationship. And then, oh, but I fell in love with this other person. Maybe you do need to leave that relationship, but why don't you take a beat?

1:04:03Why don't you see, are you just going to another person and you're going to repeat all the same things in this other relationship? Or do you want to understand more about, do I understand what happened in this relationship, why it didn't work? And then now I can leave in a way that feels good. Or maybe I was wrong and maybe there actually was something great here, but there was a problem that I wasn't willing to face in this relationship. Yeah.

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1:07:35No matter my destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com forward slash sapphire reserve. cards issued by jp morgan chase bank na member fdic subject to credit approval terms apply i want to ask you this question because obviously we're talking today about your beautiful new journal that assists maybe you should talk to someone which is the book that i interviewed you about a couple of years ago which is such a phenomenal book it's helped so many people how and why is journaling valuable to everything we're discussing today i think that one of the things that happens when you journal is you go into this space that you don't go into when you're not writing it down.

1:08:22When you actually can see something, it's very different from thinking it. Our thoughts are fleeting. They just move around. They're very disorganized. And the thing about journaling is no one's judging it. No one's seeing it. It's just for you. You know, I used to think, it's funny because I put out this journal, but I used to not want to journal because I would think, oh, it's a chore and I'm going to have to sit down and it's going to have, what if, you know, know, I don't know what to say, or I don't really have anything to say. And what the way that I've structured this journal is there's a prompt that comes from, maybe you should talk to someone just to give you a little bit of structure, but it follows you through the 52 weeks of the year, like a therapy session.

1:08:59And we always say that the work of most of the work of therapy happens outside the therapy room. So people think I'm going to come to therapy. I'm going to have all these insights and that's my therapy. No, you're going to, if you don't use what you learn in therapy and you don't put it into action during the week, then the insight is useless. So someone might say, oh, I got into that fight with my partner again, and now I understand why. And I'll say, well, that's great, but did you do something different? Well, no, but okay, well, good first step understanding why, but now you need to do something different.

1:09:29So when you reflect every day during the week, then you say, what am I doing with this bit of insight? So the prompt will maybe inspire some kind of insight into your life. And then what, how do you noodle that around around during the week. And you can watch your progression because you've written it down. And what I love about doing a journal for a year is that you can look at like three months ago, I thought this, but look how I'm handling this situation now. And it just takes five minutes. A lot of people will wake up in the morning and journal just to clear their minds. Many of us will wake up and the first thing we do is we look at our phones and already we're stressed.

1:10:04And already we're thinking about, oh, I didn't do this or I'm behind already. It's not a good way to start your day. I love taking five minutes in the morning to just write down so that then it's out there and I don't have to sit with it all day long. A lot of people also will do it right before bed because you know how sometimes we'll just think all these thoughts before bed and it keeps you up at night and you can't sleep. You journal before bed and now you feel like, oh, I'm really, I'm all cleared out. I feel good. So I think that journaling is really valuable. And I think it reminds me of something that we often say in relationships, that it's easy to notice the person who gets angry in a relationship and harder to notice the person who smiles all the time.

1:10:47So when people say like, oh, my partner's angry all the time. And it's like, well, because you're ignoring, that person's holding the anger for both of you. If you journal, you might notice if you're the person who smiles all the time, that maybe you have some anger too, or maybe you have trouble bringing something up. And if you're a really avoidant person, like the person who does smile all the time, it's a good thing to put it down in a journal because then you say, oh, wait, there are things that I want to bring up and let me figure out what to do with them. Or if you're the person who's angry and is holding the anger for both of you, you might start to notice through journaling, it's not my job.

1:11:23Why am I angry all the time if this person is not willing to have any of these conversations, this person's stonewalling me. So you discover a lot about yourself and your patterns when you have this space that you can be vulnerable in that no one's judging. To add to that, one of the things that I think that's so special about journaling is that it's so much easier to measure physical change. So if you're trying to put on weight, lose weight, if you're trying to build muscle, you know, whatever it may be, you can measure that and there's a number to it. And I found that for me, journaling has always been a great way of looking back a week ago, a month ago, a year ago and going, what was I thinking about then?

1:12:04Where was I in my headspace? What was I worried about? And often I've found when I've gone and done that, you can actually see growth in the same way as having like a marker. And if you're not journaling every day, you kind of don't know whether you're moving forward or backward because you don't have something to think about. You just have your feeling in the moment. Whereas when you look back and you think, wow, five years ago, I can't leave. I used to worry about that exam or that interview or that whatever it may have been. And now I'm like, I wouldn't be worried about that at all. Things have changed.

1:12:34And so to me, it's a great way of monitoring and measuring growth. Yeah. And I think that change is really hard. This is why new year's resolutions tend not to work out for people a lot of the time. And you can see when you journal, I talk in the book, Maybe you should talk to someone about the stages of change and you can see them happen. So pre-contemplation is you don't even know that you're thinking about making a change. So that's when you're kind of in denial in your journal, like, oh no, this isn't really happening. And you see yourself kind of justify or rationalize things that you know just are not right.

1:13:08And then contemplation is, you know, you need to make a change, but you're not ready yet. So now you're getting more real with yourself. That's usually when people come to therapy at the contemplation, but you can see it in the journal. Oh, now I'm really getting out of denial. And then there's preparation where you're sort of saying, how do I prepare to make this change? What steps do I need to take? Whether I want to leave this relationship or I want to get into a relationship and put myself out there more, or I want to, you know, I want to go after some dream or I want to set a boundary. So how am I preparing for this?

1:13:39And then action is when you actually make the change, but that's not the last step. The last step is maintenance. And that's the most important change. And that doesn't mean I have to maintain the change and be perfect. It means that I'm going to slip back like in chutes and ladders, right? So it's like, yes, I will, there'll be, oh, I broke up with that person, but no, I called them. I didn't mean to call them. That doesn't mean you failed. That just means you're human. And so how can you show yourself, and you can do this in your journal, how can you write something to yourself that's very compassionate, but also holding yourself accountable.

1:14:14So, and how you can look in your journal about how do I talk to myself? You know, do I, do I beat myself up all the time? Am I a bully to myself or can I be compassionate with myself? Because that will actually help me to be accountable. I can be more accountable when I'm kind to myself. So that doesn't mean, oh, it's fine that you called him. You just get back in the relationship with him. It means, oh, you were feeling sad or you were feeling lonely and you called him because you were lonely, but maybe next time I'll call a friend. Maybe next time I'll take a walk. Maybe next time I will go to this meeting, you know, whatever you need to do.

1:14:48And then you're really being compassionate. And you have in your journal kind of this friend that's really kind to yourself, that knows you really well, and that knows what you need to do. And it's right there on the page. Such a great note about your journal, letting you know how you talk to yourself and the language you use with yourself and helping you change that. Because when it's on the page, you can cross it out, you can edit it, you can write a new version. When it's in your head, it just keeps repeating and you never get that moment to edit it or to filter it. Laurie, you've been so kind with your time today.

1:15:22I want to ask you one last thing and it's about what you just mentioned there. And I think it's breakups and it's, you know, I still find till this day that breakups seem to be the hardest relationship transition that people tend to go through maybe apart from grief or maybe even similar and i'd love your thoughts on that but because it is a kind of loss i think that people feel there was one person uh from the audience that we were connected with that had a breakup and they really they were together with this person for two years they really thought this is the person that they were going to spend their life with they really thought this was going in their direction they felt that they actually had good like compatibility they were good at talking about things but then what felt like out of the blue to this person they just felt that this person was like i don't think this is going in that direction anymore and then things withered away quickly it's hard when you kind of you know and this is probably what you get all the time people don't feel a sense of closure they don't really understand the other person's not doing a good job explaining it and doesn't want to or doesn't have the time.

1:16:29What are some of the steps that we need to take when we're kind of lost in that no person's land of, I thought I had something, it doesn't exist anymore. Well, first of all, loss is exactly, it's grief. And people go through the stages of grief and the stages of grief are not sequential. So they're, they're actually meant for people who are, who are experiencing terminal illness, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. But they're very apt, I think, for, for any kind of loss. And when you talk about a breakup, there can be denial like, oh, you don't really mean that. We really are compatible.

1:17:03And you try to talk the other person into maybe seeing the light that they can't see. You know, the anger is, how could you have led me on for this amount of time? You're such a terrible person. You wasted all my time. You were lying to me this whole time when the person wasn't. They probably truly, you know, thought this was going somewhere. You know, the bargaining is, well, what if, you know, you know, and the person tells you maybe why they're breaking up with you. Like, I don't think that we're compatible in this way. And then you try to become the thing, you know, like, what if I did this or I can be more of this, or we can do this.

1:17:39And they're like, no, that's not really the way this will get solved. You know, depression, which is just the whole, I mean, it's so, because I think what people don't realize is it's not what you're losing just in the moment. It's you're losing the future that you had imagined. So you, you lose the past. You lose like all the, whatever amount of time you spent with that person, you built a life with this person. And it's the dailiness. There's an intimacy to that dailiness. There's a comfort, there's a safety of this person knows all these little quirks about me. You know, we have all these inside jokes.

1:18:15We have a shorthand. You know, this person asked how my day is. I know, you know, it's the dailiness of being with someone. So you lose that. That's very lonely. But then you also lose the future. You had built up a whole story about what your lives were going to be like in a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years. Gone. And you have nothing to replace it with right now because you don't know what it's going to look like yet. So the grief is real. And I think people try to downplay it. They're like, why are you so sad about this? He was a jerk or she was a jerk or whatever. It's like, I'm sad because I lost something very important to me.

1:18:52And your friends need to realize that instead of just demonizing the other person, they need to realize like you lost something really valuable in your daily life, in the present, in the future, part of your past, all of that is gone now. So that's really hard. I think the other part of then dealing with the grief is letting yourself feel it because it's real, no matter what people tell you, it's real. And the other part is the story that you're telling yourself about it is really important. So you might be telling yourself a story of the other person's terrible. That might feel good in the moment.

1:19:25It might be something like I'm bad, you know, like I'm not good enough. If I were only something else, this person would love me more, or I'm not lovable, or I'll never find anyone, right? Those are not helpful stories because it's not true. It's, you are not compatible with this person for whatever reason, even though you thought you were. If the other person doesn't feel you're the right person for them, you're automatically incompatible, right? You can't, you can't make it so that, well, they just don't see it. So we aren't compatible because the other person doesn't want to be with me. So many times I'll hear, you know, someone even without a breakup, like someone will be dating someone and the person isn't really invested in the relationship maybe in the way that they would like them to.

1:20:08And the person sitting on my couch will say, but we're so compatible. We're so perfect for each other. That person just has intimacy issues and I could just change them. Even if the breakup was about, you think the person had intimacy issues, it doesn't really matter. The point is they aren't able to be with you. So you are not compatible. And so that is, I think, very comforting to know, like we are just not compatible, even though it hurts a lot, we're not compatible. And I have to sit with the pain of, I need to know that we were not compatible and that's not going to jade me in other relationships.

1:20:41And I think that's the important thing. So many times we get into a new relationship after that and we punish the new person for something the old person did. Right? Like the old person wasn't truthful with me. So I'm going to like check your phone all the time. No, don't like put someone in jail for a crime they didn't commit. So you got to really like know what are the wounds from this relationship? What am I learning from this? What does this teach me about me, about the other person? And then how do I move into a new relationship with hope and with caution and holding both hope and caution?

1:21:18Fantastic. Laurie, the reason why I love talking to you about this is you're doing this all the time, whether it's in your private practice, whether it's on Dear Therapist, or whether it's through your books. And if you've been listening or watching today, everyone, I hope that you go and grab a copy of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, the journal 52 weekly sessions to transform your life by Laurie Gottlieb. And as I said, you can subscribe to her podcast. And if you haven't read, maybe you should talk to someone, make sure you go and grab that book as well. Laurie, thank you so much for joining us on On Purpose.

1:21:48Oh, my pleasure. I'm so grateful we got to spend this time together today and answer some of our audience's questions and challenges. And I'm hoping that all of you who had yours answered, or maybe even if you didn't send something in, but you felt heard and you felt seen and you felt understood because so much of what we're all going through is so intertwined. And so thank you to everyone who was brave enough, courageous enough to share your stories. And Laurie, thank you for answering them so expertly. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I always love having these conversations with you. Thank you, Laurie.

1:22:17If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past. Everything in nature grows the only way it's vulnerable. So a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It grows where it's soft and green and vulnerable. This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given. And Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get eight times the points on all the purchases I make through Chase travel and even access to one-of-a-kind experiences, experiences like music festivals and sporting events.

1:23:04And that's not even mentioning how the card gets me into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover more at chase.com forward slash sapphire reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. Member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Terms apply. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.