MALALA: The Story The World Hasn’t Heard Until Now

30:33that i mean even just listening to that as i'm listening to your journey and your life i'm like there is so much courage and there is so much resilience for such a young person to be able to even make sense of what is going on let alone put themselves at the center of it and the fact that you were concerned about your father in that moment is so heartwarming and at the same time it's it's painstaking because it's so much pressure on such a young person to take on it's it's really incredible having the right people in your corner to support you is a great form of self-care just like the friend who shows up to a housewarming party when you get that dream home celebrates your big promotion or goes with you on a walk to clear your mind, State Farm is there to help you feel supported.

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34:33In your book and I want to be very sensitive to do with this because of the way you write about it and when I was at this point in your book it really you know it really took me a second to process it myself and you talked about how you said my life is so happy now and it's hard to look back and I appreciate that I can't imagine I can't even come close to imagine how hard it is to even reflect on being attacked by the Taliban and in the manner that it happened I believe you're on a bus yes school bus the school bus so walk me through what you can uh sensitively and mindfully in the best way for you to share had that experience so people can understand what happened?

35:17Yeah, so we were on our school bus and I was just hoping I'd get to my home and prepare for my next day exams. It would be a normal school day the next day. But on the way, the Taliban gunman stopped our school bus and one person was distracting the driver at the front and one guy showed at the back and asked, who was Malala and my face was uncovered. He immediately started firing bullets. One bullet immediately hit me on the left side of my forehead and two bullets hit the friends who were sitting right next to me in their arms and in their hand. I do not remember the exact incident. And this has been my answer so far.

36:05I have many memories in my head, but I sort of have told myself, I do not remember it. And I was then taken to a hospital and from one hospital to then another, to then another. And then eventually I was moved to the UK for my further treatment. And, you know, I survived, my friends survived. I started my school again in the UK. My friends also were moved to the UK and they started their school. So, you know, when I look back, I'm just really grateful that we are all alive and we completed our education. But everything changed that day. We didn't make it to our homes. It was sort of a terrible, terrible moment.

36:56All I remember is the last day of school and then waking up in a hospital in Birmingham in the UK. And just realizing that I have a tube in my neck and I can't talk. And I just look around and I see these nurses and doctors speaking in English. They look very different than like the brown people I had seen in Pakistan. And I said, I feel like I'm in a different place. And I was sort of writing down to them to just tell me where I was. I said, you know, where am I? Like what happened to me? And I repeatedly asked one question, where's my father? And then I would also add, who's going to pay for this?

37:37I don't have money. So I was worried about the medical bill. You know, I think Americans would understand where I was coming from. But I just wanted to get better and leave the hospital, go back to my old life. It took me a while to realize that, you know, my life had taken a turn. My parents joined me 10 days later at the hospital. That was the first time I actually cried. because a lot of people might think that when I woke up, I might have been under so much pain and trauma. I might have been crying day and night. No, I just wasn't feeling normal. The pain is so intense that you just forget the normal emotions to process it, the normal reactions.

38:22So I couldn't even cry. And the first time I saw my family when they came to the UK, that was the first moment I cried because when you see your family, you connect with that normal life that you had before. And then before I even realized, I had a few more surgeries to go through and then they said, okay, we want you to do this interview and we want you to give this speech at the UN and we also have this book offer. So it would be good if you can sign the book offer. so and you have to start school as well because we don't know when you can go back but you should start school in the UK so I joined a new school and this is this like new pathway that my life took to be honest like in in my heart I thought this is all temporary like this is all temporary for now because we are going to go back to Pakistan as soon as possible and we will have a normal life I just had no idea what was out there and what had happened so like the first time when I learned about the response from like people around the world was when this person from the hospital brought a basket of cards and letters and I'm like reading cards and letters from people around the world like US and Japan and India and Canada and I'm like wait a second like do people know about me and then I like looked at you know sort of news on Google and all of that I was like wait a second wow like this is this is truly an opportunity because people have heard my story but maybe I can bring attention to the stories of girls around the world so I started Malala Fund as well at the time an organization I have dedicated to girls education so before I knew it Like, you know, everything had switched now.

40:23Now I was sort of like the lead activist. My father was following my footsteps and I was like helping my family as well. I was, you know, doing a book or speeches and things like that to help support my family. And I also had to be a student at the same time. I mean, even hearing about it, I'm just like, I don't, I have no idea how you carried all of that. In the middle of all of this, you sort of forget that you are 15 and you're supposed to be a girl. I could not be silly. I could not do normal things. I was not binge watching some like sitcoms. I was not being able to make friends at school.

41:11I was too shy, too awkward. and you know at lunchtime I would I would just say okay you know I hope I can like sit next to a friend at least I can pretend like I'm sitting with somebody and I don't want to sit alone so by the end of my school I just had only made one one best friend and we're now like friends for life but just one one friend at school and so that that was all tough because when you're like so busy and you have all of this work going on it's you know it's hard it's hard to be a normal student at school. I mean, with the attack, it sounds like the Taliban had come across your blog and aware of your speeches and your activism.

41:52Do you think they saw you as a threat because you were starting to gain momentum? Were you starting to have an impact and they noticed that? Or was it a way of displaying power? Like, how have you reconciled that? So the Taliban issued statements after the attack. And they said many things when I survived that they did the right thing, that I was somehow promoting an anti-Islamic ideology by simply asking for girls to be in school. And they said that they still see me as that disobedient person that needs to be punished for speaking out. So they have repeatedly created these fabricated narratives, these false narratives, calling what I do as un-Islamic or all of that.

42:43I mean, learning and education is a core part of Islam. I wish sometimes that they read what they're preaching. If they read more about Islam, they will learn that the most important thing is actually seeking knowledge and learning. And there's nothing in the religion that says a woman or a girl cannot learn. So how can they make up these new rules by themselves? It's just simply patriarchy and misogyny. They try to misuse - Use religion as a coverer. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I sometimes think about how much can I understand their ideology and then how can I convince them? I was of this view for a long time.

43:28I thought maybe I could sit down with them and explain it to them and I can tell them that, you know, I have also read the Quran with translation or like I know all the 99 names of Allah off by heart and I can sort of say like, you know, that they don't own the religion. Like there are all of us from many cultures and many backgrounds who connect with the faith, that education is not a threat to women. It's rather about their empowerment and that it is a core part of Islam. But with time, I realized that it's not about that. It's not about changing their ideologies, but it's talking about the deep causes of why these extreme ideologies emerge.

44:13And education is a pathway to challenge indoctrination, to encourage critical thinking among people, and to empower people. Education is the most powerful equalizer, and it can help us address so many of these social economic injustices. And at the same time, if the Taliban do not want to see women and girls empowered or in education, the best way for me to fight back is to help girls and women get education and equal opportunities. So I shifted my focus. I said, I'm going to focus on educating girls. The Taliban wanted to stop one girl from learning. Let's educate every girl in the world. It's so empowering listening to you.

44:57You say that and to see the ripple effects that it's having. And I wonder for you, as you were doing that, as you start that process from coming out of the coma, how long were you in a coma for? I think a week. It was like induced coma. I can't imagine how worried your parents were when you didn't come home that night. I mean, it was a nightmare. I could never understand it or comprehend it, what they experienced. And it's one of those topics that we have talked through when it was the book writing phase. That's when you ask each other questions like, I'm writing this chapter. Can you tell me what exactly happened?

45:37But these conversations are really, really hard. and like mental health therapy these conversations did not come up at the time I had like many doctors and nurses and I loved all of them but the therapist at the hospital was my least favorite and you know she would ask me how are you feeling today and I would roll my eyes that you know what Sheeno. And my father, my parents, and I, we sort of said no to therapy. We said, it's okay. I'm doing fine. I have recovered. The surgeries are successful. I have recovered. And then it was years later that I wished that I had received therapy because I thought I had recovered and everything was fine.

46:32I just thought I did not remember the attack so I'm good I can move on and then seven years later I had flashbacks that were triggered by a bong incident yeah so you know this is now college time and I was open to exploring many things in college I you know my life had taken this shift I was becoming a different young person. So this was like a normal night and I was hanging out with some friends and they showed me a bonk and I was like, what is this? And it's like, oh, just give it a try, nothing harmful. So I take one puff, I cough. And on the second attempt, I inhale it and I felt it went all inside my body.

47:24And what was like supposed to be a fun night was, Just took a sharp turn and immediately I froze. I thought I was reliving the attack. The flashbacks were in front of my eyes. I thought I could see the gunman again. I was shaking. I was shivering. I could hear my heartbeat. I was, you know, I just, I wanted to scream. It was like such a trauma that I was going through in that moment. And it like went on and on. I just wanted it to stop. And I felt so helpless, like time slowed down. I thought maybe this is the afterlife. Maybe I'm dead. Maybe it has happened again. Like maybe the gunmen are back.

48:14And I was like so scared that I could not even close my eyes and fall asleep. Because I thought if I close my eyes, that I will die. Um, and like even, even the next day I thought, you know, this will like sort of magically disappear. You just hope the next day to be normal. And it wasn't the case. And I realized that, um, my life had changed. I had many panic attacks after that. Um, and, and I, as much as I tried, I just could, it was not going away. Well, it's incredible to think after seven years. Yes. That everything could come back. and I was actually going to ask before that, there's this, it's almost like you were being asked to be the symbol of courage and hope.

49:04Yeah. But that meant there was no space for grief or anger or doubt, like the grief of the lost life that you had before, the grief of having to leave this place that you loved, that you thought you were coming back to. It sounds like there wasn't any time or space to process any of that. and had you had the therapy support that you would have wanted, maybe it wouldn't have happened that way. Talk to me about how, when did you, was that when you first started looking at emotions like grief and anger and what were the emotions that came up after that seven-year reminder? I think now I see it as emotions of grief and frustration.

49:47or, but I think, you know, what's different in my experience was that when a moment like that broke me down and when small things would make me scared or frightened all of a sudden, this was not happening before because I was supposed to be this brave and courageous girl. And now that I was afraid of small things or just nothing terrified me. I felt that I had failed in living up to the expectation of being brave and courageous. And that was the hardest part to process. I just could not take in more. And I was frustrated with myself because I thought, But Malala, remember, you went through so much.

50:38You processed it. And you could take so much on your shoulders. Why is it breaking you down now when you are safe and there's nothing to be worried about? Everything is okay. And somehow you're frightened now. That is just so hard to process at the time that you feel so frustrated with yourself. There's this anger, frustration. and you feel like you are an imposter because you have failed to meet this definition of being brave. So for months, it went on that even my friends started noticing that I was not doing okay. So one of my friends then suggested that I see a therapist. And that was the first time after seven or eight years that I started therapy.

51:27It's so fascinating, isn't it? that despite you having lived through so many difficult things, the mind is still able to guilt you into thinking you should have figured this out. Like how do you, like, it's so like hearing you say that you've got all the proof that you've gone through really hard things, but the mind still finds a way to make you feel guilty and shameful and frustrated that you haven't figured out or an imposter, as you just said, like, oh, you're an imposter because you're helping people I've hoped, but you're still dealing with this. And it's amazing how the mind can just get the better of us, regardless of what we've lived through.

52:03Yeah. I mean, we lived under terrorism. We lived under the Taliban. And I lived those moments with so much courage. And then many years later, I could not even watch the news and see the word killing, attack. It would just terrify me so much that like you cannot hide it. You cannot hide that it's breaking you apart. You know, the flashbacks, these panic attacks. So when my friend suggested that I see a therapist, I remember my first session with the therapist where I told her everything about what was going on. She told me that, you know, this is PTSD and anxiety. She said it could be like many things you might be stressed about your exams or your college life and so many things that you are thinking about right now in life.

52:56But this is anxiety and this is PTSD that you are experiencing like many, many years later. I was so annoyed. I was saying like, so how can we fix this? I was hoping she would give me some medication that she would fix the problem. But she made me realize that it takes time. It takes time to process. She taught me different techniques, like breathing techniques to help myself when I am facing anxiety. And she helped me understand that there's only so much you can take at a time. And maybe you could many years ago, but maybe right now that, she calls it a window of tolerance, that your window of tolerance is maybe, you know sort of shrinking a bit and then it expands a bit at times that maybe you have just too much on your shoulders that you are overwhelmed or sometimes when we don't address it on time it piles up and then it gets so heavy that it breaks you down so she said like you might be experiencing that as well so yeah like the therapy really changed everything for me like if I had not received therapy I just do not even know if I would have been in like in this position right now What kept you committed to therapy when you're having such dark days?

54:17Because as you said, it's not like you wake up tomorrow and you feel better, obviously. And so what kept you committed to the process when you weren't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel? So, you know, like I was finding a way to get out of it. Like, you know, you feel like you are in the darkness or like you want to get out. You know that you don't want to be in the place where you are right now. And you're finding different ways to get out of it. I tried to talk to my parents. My parents just could not understand. I, you know, I was like sort of phrasing it in a way that it doesn't freak them out.

54:55but I was telling them that I have had some challenges with my mental health. And my mom was like, just don't be stressed. Like, you know, just be happy. And the same with my dad. He's like, you know, we want to see you happy. And when you are sad, it makes us sad. But when you are happy, it makes us happy. And I was like, okay, like I'll try. But like, this is not how it works. I usually debate with my dad that, you know, I have the right to be sad as well. that these are all emotions and we need to give ourselves time to process that. I found my friends very helpful. So at college, all the amazing friends that I had made helped me in this time because they were there for me.

55:33They were not my therapists, but they made sure that I did not feel alone, that they were sharing moments with me, taking me to dinner or taking me to an event or something, like taking me for a walk, simple things like that. And then a few times they did a sleepover with me because I was struggling. I was struggling to fall asleep. And every day a friend would take a turn to do a sleepover. The first time that I was able to fall asleep. And yeah, it was like my friends who made me feel that getting therapy, it's okay. Don't be disappointed with yourselves that somehow you have not lived up to the expectation of, you know, being this brave girl who knows an answer to everything and she has figured it out.

56:25Like, it's okay. So many people who you might think have got it all together are actually getting therapy. And when my friend told me that she herself was seeing a therapist, I said, wow, like I had no idea. She said, yeah, like you may not know, but a lot of people are. So it's like, it's okay. And my therapist told me the same thing. So that gave me a sense of relief where you just like, don't feel alone anymore. And that's why I'm sharing my story because I'm wondering how many people are out there who might feel alone, who may not know a way out. I just want to tell them that I was in the same place.

57:03And I wished somebody had told me their story and had told us like it's okay to ask for help like you know get therapy get the support talk to somebody I took months to actually see a therapist so I hope that when people read my story they they they ask for help. Friends is such a kind of through line in your journey as I'm hearing you talk today like the importance of friends missing friends making friends? How would you define a good friend? I mean, it's like a place where you feel you can be yourself. When I am in the company of my friends, I don't think about being correct about everything.

57:51I don't think about, am I saying this thing correctly or not? And you just don't think twice. You can be yourself. You can let it all out. It is a non-judgmental environment that they create for you. And especially for people like some of us who are exposed to a public life and who have a public profile, we have seen how we can be criticized or scrutinized for almost anything. And we have to somehow just say all the correct things. But when you find friends that you trust, who love you and support you no matter what, you can be yourself with them. So like with my friends, I can be silly, I can be funny, I can talk about any topic, I can talk about boys and astrology, and we can discuss their love lives.

58:45And in that moment, I just don't feel like I have to be somebody, or I have to live up to some sort of a profile that I have. I feel like I can just simply be myself. Yeah, I think that's what we're all looking for. Yeah, friends are everything. Yeah, and as you're finding your way in this book, I imagine it becomes harder and harder with people who know more about you than if they don't know you. Yes. To really break that barrier down. Yeah, so I remember the first week of college, I had decided that I will say hi to everybody I you know might be overdoing it but it's okay it might feel cringe but go say hello to everybody because you don't want it to be like your school life you want to make as many friends as possible I remember saying hi to Cora who became like my first friend at college and you know like sort of when we connected we we were talking about what we were studying and what we liked about our subjects.

59:49And then we were visiting these different exhibitions about different societies and clubs at the college fair. So then there was this like Oxford Union Fair as well. It's like a famous debating society. And, you know, I was like hiding this identity of mine of being, you know, an activist. So I'm looking at the poster of the Oxford Union and I see all of these like famous speakers who have spoken there before and then I see a photo of mine and I was like oh you know why did they put it there or like how do I hide myself because this is like the last thing I want to see and then some people spotted me they asked for a photo and this friend of mine like she was just so supportive she took you know photos of me, you know, with the fans.

1:00:39And I was like, oh, like it's over. She may never want to talk to me again. Like the friendship is over. But once that was done, you know, I was like, I'm so sorry. I said, you know, and she said, it's okay. Like, you know, and we just quickly changed our conversation back to, okay, like, you know, what are we going to get for our groceries or, you know, when is, when is our next essay and all of that. I think with friends like these, you can be more yourself.

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1:04:31When you're writing about in the book, it was more about school than college, but you became the resident advisor on romance. Yes. Is what you say. And then there's this beautiful part where you say, how are you so good at spotting red flags when you've never been on a date? And you say, I guess I'm a better coach than a player. And I was like, you know, talk to me about that experience of, again, like it goes back to what you were saying earlier. Like you're trying to live up to this symbol. You're not binge watching TV shows. You're not dating. You're not, you know. No. walk me through that paradox of being a young woman who's wanting to experience the world growing up, but then having to keep this reminder almost of what you stand for.

1:05:17Yeah. I mean, I had become this relationship guru in college because everybody was going through some problems with boys. You can imagine there are always problems. Somebody was getting ghosted or the boy was not replying for two days. And my friend is like, do you think he loves me? And I'm like, are you missing the sign? And, you know, I, you know, I was helping them understand, you know, to some, I was saying like, you need to move on. Like there's more in life. And then they were like, how do you know it all? And I was like, I don't know. Yeah. I do sometimes say, you know like a coach doesn't have to be on the field like I did not expect to have like a love story and even though like just growing up I had seen Bollywood movies and everybody has imagined Shah Rukh Khan like figure you know we all imagine ourselves in the Shah Rukh Khan songs but I became very self-conscious after the attack because my facial nerve was damaged on the left upside and that caused asymmetry and you know like my smile and and the features were not the same anymore and you know sort of like you notice right like you notice you're not the same person anymore so I became more self-aware and I just thought okay like I you know I should not like I just thought like nobody would love me and at the same time I was like but nobody because you know we're like so um hard on ourselves that we're like you know but nobody should love me and I just want to focus on on the work now this love life is not for me so that's sort of what I thought um though in college I did find a crush uh he was this like good looking guy not my husband a different guy a good looking guy a really mysterious character uh more like a gangster kind of character.

1:07:14I did not know I was attracted to like the bad boys. And it was more like a one-sided love and imagination. It wasn't real because, you know, he would just sometimes like say hello to me, come to my room and eat all the bananas and cookies and then disappear. You know, there was like, there was like, I just had no idea. My friends would sometimes say that, you know, he's doing drugs and stuff like that. So stay away from him. And I was like, no, he needs my help. Like somebody needs to protect him. Yeah. But like when you yourself are in that love phase, then it's, you can't see it clearly. It is true.

1:07:49Like, you know, you, you just can't see it. But yeah, then that crush ghosted me and that story was over. But I was like, you know, at least I just went through a moment of feeling love and maybe I loved it because I, I was under this assumption that I cannot be loved and I will never find somebody. So I said, there's no harm in just loving somebody in your imagination. Yeah. I mean, that feeling of I won't be loved and maybe it isn't for me, that feels like a really deep kind of emotion that doesn't just disappear. What worked to help work through that? What really allowed you to work on that, especially when this feeling came from the incident, from being attacked.

1:08:37It didn't come from yourself. You didn't have that before. You know, girls have been sort of told to be insecure about themselves. So I would not say that there was like literally no insecurity before, but after the attack, I became very, very insecure about my looks. But so much that I just said, you know what? I don't care about it. When you set a new pathway for yourself and you say, you know what, like love life is not for me. I don't care if nobody loves me and it just doesn't matter. And I think in the middle of that, I just forgot to love myself. That was the hard part. But when I found this new guy in my life, Asar, who's now my husband, so there's a good ending to this story.

1:09:23You know, I immediately fell in love with him because he was like so good looking, hot and handsome, funny. He had a good sense of humor. He was laughing at my jokes. I thought he's just so entertaining. I was like, wow, like, is he the, is he like the person that I had sort of imagined, you know, for myself? So when, you know, when Asar and I started like talking and we were getting to know each other, I knew that I love him and I wanted to be with him. The marriage was a whole different conversation, so we can come back to that. But the other conversation was about me accepting that he loves me.

1:10:02I was in so much doubt. I could not trust it. I just constantly felt like, but why would he love me? And then in the end, I just told myself that somebody can't write a proof to you to say, hey, I give you a proof that I love you. If they are treating you with respect and they make you happy and they're there for you and they want to spend the rest of their life with you, then they love you and embrace that, accept that. Don't question it, don't doubt it. You can't give them any guarantee. They can't give you any guarantee. So I had to process that. It was really hard, but in the end I accepted it because I constantly would have these questions in my head but like are you okay with like the way I look is it okay if I can't have like a full smile and are you okay with like sort of the left side of my face and all of that like sometimes like I would try to ask him these questions and sometimes these questions would be floating in my mind and then I would just remind myself like he's here with you he's looking at you and he's smiling like he can't stop looking at you he's calling you gorgeous and beautiful so accept that embrace that Asar loved me and and and he you know in with him like I have felt this immense love and joy so he loves me but more than that I think I started loving myself wow I love hearing that thank you for sharing that thank you so much for taking us there and yes the multitude of emotions that every person goes through and definitely what women go through, but then to add your own experience to as well.

1:11:51What was Asura's background like when it comes to women's rights and education? And what was his viewpoint on that? Of course, I assume it's supportive, but I'd love to know what his journey was and his experience of that was. Yeah. I mean, he has two older sisters who are like 18 and 16 years older than him. And so he usually says that he grew up with three moms. He wasn't as close to his dad. He has like the right views. I know sometimes men receive a lot of praise when they're saying the right thing. We're like, wow, this man is so nice because he believes women should be allowed to work or yeah, like women should be making decisions about their bodies and about their career anything we're like wow he's such a nice man so yes I do sometimes say that he is an amazing person like so open-minded and like he just respects women's dignity and um and see and see them as like equal humans and which is which should be the case but then at the same time I'm like that should be called a basic man a basic normal man it's so true it's such a great point It's such a great point.

1:13:05Yeah, and I have been praising my dad so much for being like this amazing feminist dad. That should be a basic normal dad. Yeah, yeah, well said. Absolutely, that is brilliant. It's a basic man and a basic dad. That's what we're trying to aspire for right now. Exactly. No, it's true. You couldn't have said it better. It's not an achievement to think we should have equal rights and equal opportunities. And yeah, there's no greatness in that. It's obvious. yes it's really really obvious yes makes a lot of sense was it was it hard for you to fall in love and date and build a relationship with the expectations that come from you know your home that come from culture that come from family like of course you've talked about your father being more forward-thinking when it comes to women's education but I feel like dating love romance these are not easy topics in yeah in a South Asian home all of these things were on my mind.

1:14:01But I think the one thing that sort of held me back was marriage. Because, you know, like I had to then understand that like in reality, if I want to be with Asar, we have to get married because culturally you cannot be with a person, you know, you have to like get married to live with them. So I knew that, you know, I cannot sort of like change that whole culture all of a sudden. And at the same time, like I said, I have seen how marriage has changed the future of so many girls who were forced into it. We know that tens of millions of girls every year are married off before the age of 18. and this has been an institution that has given less to women through history and across the globe.

1:15:01So it wasn't that I was against marriage or for marriage or any of that, but I was just confused. I said, okay, this is not an easy decision. And I felt that I was thinking collectively for all women when I was considering marriage for myself. So on the one hand, I just wanted to be with Asar. I said, there's no doubt about that. But at the same time, I also was grappling with this idea of marriage. In the end, I did all of my research and I chatted with my friends and we were reading books by famous feminist authors and all of that. But I said to Asar that it's about this mutual agreement between us.

1:15:45And the more we talked, the more sort of I spent time with him, I just understood who he was as a person and how he would be like a great supportive husband. And I just saw how I enjoyed my time in his company, that when I was with him, all these questions that would be floating in my mind would just vanish. And I remember we went to Lake Placid and this was a few months before marriage. While I was still thinking, I said, maybe it's over, maybe I'll ask him all the questions and he'll answer one incorrectly and it's done. But the more time we spend together, I was getting those answers without even asking those questions.

1:16:28So on the last day in Lake Placid, he said, so are you going to ask me the questions finally or not? And I said, I think I have the answer. And I said, I'm ready. I think I'm ready to be with you for the rest of my life. So then, you know, a few months later, we finally got married. And I still say that I am not proposing that marriage is the best decision for every woman out there. I'm not saying it's the worst decision for every woman out there. I think it should be a conversation that we should be having openly and we should redefine these traditions, these norms, and talk about how it can be this beautiful mutual agreement between two people where they add more to their lives and make each other's lives happier, more joyful, more adventurous, and that we challenge the elements of it that have given less to women and talk about the bigger problems.

1:17:33Absolutely, yeah. In the book you wrote, how to choose between an institution I didn't believe in and a life without the person I loved. And it's really interesting to hear you make sense of it. And again, it sounds like it was such an intentional decision. and there was so much thought behind why and what and how. And I think that, yeah, I agree with you. No matter whether someone decides to choose to get married or not, I think that level of thought is just inherently important and necessary. But because I just thought I would never get married. I would tell all my college friends, do not get married.

1:18:13Stay away from boys. It's just a waste of time and all of that. So I was like, I was strongly against marriage for a long time. And then I fell in love and I was the first one in my friend's group to get married. They were rolling their eyes. They're like, seriously, seriously, that's what you were advocating against? I was like, oopsie. I was like, you know, you should never listen to a person, you know, if they randomly give you advice. I said, I'm an education activist. Like, listen to me on that. Don't consider me an expert on every topic, especially marriage. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

1:18:49How do you, when you look at just how your life has changed, how the world has changed, when you observe what's happening in the world today, what do you focus on? What are you reflecting on? What are you aware of? I think the world is constantly changing. But right now, it feels that it is becoming more and more difficult for women and girls. And I'm saying this because of what we are witnessing right now happening in Afghanistan. For the past four years, the Taliban have limited women and girls from education, work, and any public and political life. The Afghan women activists and different human rights groups are calling it a gender apartheid, which means that it is a form of an apartheid or a systematic oppression simply based on gender, that if you are born a girl, you have a different life.

1:19:46You cannot even dream to be in school or to work. So when I just think about what's happening with girls' education, how there is a country where girls are banned from education, and at the same time, there are conflicts, wars, and a genocide happening where schools are bombed, where children are attacked and children are losing their future, like from Sudan, Congo, all the way to Palestine, like what we have witnessed happening in Gaza, like right in front of our eyes on our screens, it's terrifying. I just simply wish for a future for girls where they can live a dignified life with full access to education.

1:20:36And we know that that cannot happen if we do not address the problems or the injustices that are happening right in front of our eyes. So these topics, whether it's about the wars and conflicts or whether it's about climate-related events like floods or other injustices, we cannot separate them from how it's affecting girls' education. And at the same time, we can think differently. We can think about investing in the future of girls. We can think about investing in education or focusing on children as a way to help us address these problems as well. So education is one of the most powerful and best solutions to a lot of the world inequalities, injustices.

1:21:21So that's something that I advocate for. That's the focus of my work. So these are like the issues that I focus on. What are you seeing that's actually making a change in places where women and young girls have been held back? Yeah. What are you actually seeing as moving the needle and creating the shifts that you're wanting? It is the local activists who are driving real change on the ground. My father and I started as local education activists in Swat Valley. I thought like nobody knew what we were going through more than us. And I feel the same about all of these other pressing problems that we hear about in the world.

1:22:02You know, if we are talking about Afghanistan, if we're talking about Gaza, if we're talking about Nigeria, if we're talking about girls' education challenges in Pakistan or other countries, we have to work together with the local activists because they understand the problems and they understand the best solutions to those problems as well. So when I started my foundation, Malala Fund, I was ambitious to make change happen everywhere, but I had to really question myself, what can help us make real change? I have given many speeches and received many awards and all of that. I can tell you that it's not about one speech, even though in history we are sort of taught it was that one speech of, I have a dream that changed everything.

1:22:46No, I think It's decades-long work to shift narrative, to change policies, to change the law. That is real change. And yes, everything adds up. We cannot say that one action is completely useless. It adds up, but we have to have a bigger picture. So through Malala Fund, we are investing in local education activists in Nigeria, in Pakistan. We're also working in Ethiopia, Tanzania, and Brazil. And then Afghanistan is our priority country because of the literal ban on girls' education. We are providing support to the local education activists who are giving alternative education to girls right now.

1:23:29You know, we're thinking about ways to help take education to the homes of girls when the Taliban are not allowing them to be in school. This is like our short-term response. But we cannot, you know, see this as normal. girls should be allowed to be in school. So we are also supporting the Afghan women activists who are doing advocacy, leading these campaigns, asking leaders to hold the Taliban accountable, and they're asking leaders to codify gender apartheid, to recognize what's happening in Afghanistan as a gender apartheid, to put more pressure on the Taliban, to include women in the rooms where decisions about their future are made, to put women's rights on the agenda, and to change the reality that women and girls in Afghanistan are living under.

1:24:20Like for me, if you ask me, are we doing enough or not? For me, like the response is like, yes, we are doing something. But I think about the girls who are out of school right now. For as long as the ban continues and girls are not in school, I don't think we're doing enough. So we constantly need to be doing more, whatever is in our capacity to help Afghan women and girls have the future that they deserve. So supporting local education activists is the most powerful way to drive real change. That's really helpful because I think so many people want to help and they don't know where to start or what the right thing to do is.

1:24:55And to hear that from you, I think will give a lot of people here the opportunity. A lot of our listeners are people who want to serve, who want to support, who want to help from across the world. And I guess the Malala Fund and some of these places that you're supporting would be great places for people to contribute. This is the model of Malala Fund. It's like the fundraising we do, we allocate that money into grants, into these local organizations who are working in all of the countries that I mentioned, like Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan. and I have visited the work of these organizations.

1:25:29I was in Nigeria and these activists are just incredible people. Some of them have worked for decades. They have changed policies in multiple states. Five years ago, a girl was not guaranteed education beyond her primary level. And today, she's guaranteed her secondary education. it's because of the work of these activists. So they do an incredible work. They have changed the lives of so many girls, empowered them. And when I meet the girls, you can see the change happen right in front of your eyes. So it's like they're truly inspiring. And I actually focus on supporting young women and girl activists.

1:26:14So when we talk about activists, I'm like, we have to support the girls because they're the ones who are actually experiencing these problems and these challenges and they can be the best ones to actually advocate for their rights. So I also focus on like giving grants and support to the girls activists. That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that. And I really hope that if I can be useful at all or of service, then please let me know. I'd love to be involved. It's such a, I have a younger sister. I feel like I was raised by my mom and took care of my younger sister. I feel like I've always grown up with that understanding and at least a feeling of that.

1:26:57And having grown up in London, of course, it was somewhat easier. But at the same time, you still see the discrepancies that exist. And so, yeah, if I can be useful, please let me know. As I've been listening to you today, Malala, I've been wondering now when you look back at the attack and you look back on that moment, how do you process it after the therapy, after the years away, after the seven years when it came back. How do you view that day and event now after all this time? Funny enough, today is the 9th of October while we are recording it. And this is the date when the attack happened.

1:27:37So it's been 13 years. Do you know I live it as a normal day? I do not want to think about it. it is really hard to process this day because somehow this day is about the gunman who attacked me. And that's why I want this day to go as fast as it can because I just do not want to think about how a person, a gunman could decide to target a 15-year-old girl. It's really hard. it's not just about like what I experienced but it puts you in a place where you feel less hope for humanity but in moments like these I just try to live this day as normal as I can and not think about it and I just remind myself of the millions of people who stood with me and supported me I think about the immense love that I have received I just think about the incredible activists who have joined hands with me to help create a better future for girls.

1:28:48I just think about the collective work that we are all doing. So, you know, I just reflect on how we can create a world where no other child faces a bullet, how we can create a world where every child can have the right to be in school and play and read and learn and have a normal childhood so it's just a reminder of of of this commitment to creating a better future for for every girl and every child out there so that's that's what i focus on yeah i really appreciate how human and true that answer is because I think often we externally, we project a glamorized view where people are like, oh yeah, that was the day everything changed.

1:29:43And, you know, my life, I look back and it was one of the best things that ever happened because, and it's like, you know, just it's unhealthy and it's wonderful to hear it from a very human emotion of just like, I don't like to think about it. You know, it's much more real to hear you say that. And I think it's important. That's what I think this book, Finding My Way, does, is that people get a real view on what activism actually looks like. Because I think we have, I think we're looking for heroes. And because we're looking for heroes, we have a glorified view of what activism looks like. Yeah.

1:30:21We see them as like a more global figure. Yeah. Global figures are also doing amazing things. but it's the people who we have not heard of, we have not seen on our screens that are changing the lives of people. I have traveled to so many countries and met incredible activists who have transformed the lives of girls by standing up for their education. I was in Tanzania and I I learned about these incredible activists who themselves, when they were in school, had to fight for staying in school every day. And today they are changing the lives of many girls out there. They're giving them bicycles because they have to walk for long distances to have the safety and to make it to school sooner.

1:31:14They are giving them safety in schools. They are changing the laws which did not allow girls who became pregnant and mothers at a young age to return to school. They have reversed that. They're like, every girl should be in school. When you look at these milestones, it just gives you so much more hope. And I'm just so proud of the work that Afghan women activists are doing. They are resilient. They are standing up to the Taliban. and they are the future of Afghanistan. So I have so much hope. You know, I know that the Taliban would not be in power forever. It's the Afghan women and girls who will be shaping the future of their country.

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1:35:21Malala, before we end, usually I end with a final five. Okay. Before we do that, I wanted to ask you, is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you wish you had a chance to share here? In this book, one other topic that I discuss is a sense of belonging. And I have really struggled with that because of the way I had to leave Pakistan. I have been to Pakistan many more times after that because I just did not want to give up on seeing my home again. I wanted to see the mountains, be by the river, smell the fresh air and be in the place where I grew up. But at the same time, I have now met so many people around the world.

1:36:09I have seen different countries and I have found a sense of belonging everywhere now. and I feel this sense of belonging when I'm in the company of my family when I'm chatting with my friends and we are laughing out loud or when I'm you know holding the hand of my husband this is sort of the sense of belonging that that I feel and I think you know it's like when you meet so many people you just realize we're all one so I hope that we can promote more of that and I have always had this sense of like home and I was always looking for home like you know we've always lived in rented buildings so I just never thought like what was my real and my true home but now you know for me like home is everywhere and I have been on this journey to make change happen for girls in the world.

1:37:09And the one place that was always on my mind was my own hometown in Pakistan, where I saw how girls were still dreaming to finish their school. And there were no high school in the village where my parents were born. So when I started like Malala Fund, and when I won the Nobel Peace Prize, it came with the prize money as well. So I said, you know what? I am going to make a school there. And it's considered to be one of the most difficult areas to work in because it's up in the mountains and nobody wants to go and work there. But I said, if we can make it happen there, I think we can make it happen in any part of the country.

1:37:53We worked on it for the past seven, eight years. And this year, the first class graduated. Wow. I went to Pakistan in March. I visited the school for the first time. It was so different than what I had seen on PowerPoint presentations and in photos. You know, like just seeing that in the middle of these mountains, there's this beautiful school where girls are learning. They are playing. They are talking. They are laughing. They are dreaming of having a future for themselves. It was the most rewarding feeling. and what I loved was the support that they receive. Like they play chess and it's like a state of the art school.

1:38:36They have all of these different like activities. It's an incredible school. But when I saw the mental health office, that made me so happy. And the girls were telling me how they get mental health support. They sometimes do these different activities where they just sing together and dance and sometimes just scream to let it all out. So when I was just reflecting on my own mental health journey and how I wished we had more support than I had more support and how we want more support for girls, it just gave me so much joy that the girls were getting the support that they deserved and that they should have.

1:39:18So that was such a rewarding moment. and it gives me hope that we can make education a reality for every girl in every corner of the world and all those 122 million girls who do not have access to education we we can do something for them we can we we can ensure that every girl can be in school every girl can complete her education first of all congratulations thank you that is such a i can't comprehend or conceive of just how momentous that is for you to be able to open that school. And what I love about your focus is that there's the academic education, but there's also that value that you're putting on the emotional education that all of these girls require so that they can truly achieve their full potential and not be held back because the academic qualification gives them access.

1:40:14And And as you said, creates more equality, but the emotional education helps them protect themselves and really stand up for themselves as well. So that's incredible. I mean, I hope I can visit one day. It sounds like such a beautiful place to visit. It's incredible. Malala, it's been such a privilege and honor to talk to you. Honestly, I really mean that. I always knew it would be. but meeting you and sitting with you here face to face getting the chance to read your book early it's beyond what I expected it's surpassed all my expectations just the depth the grace the humor with which you carry yourself as well you would give it five stars so enduring more we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five these questions have to be answered in one sentence one word I always say one word to one sentence but nobody does no one does it so We can ignore it, but one sentence maximum.

1:41:12But Malala, these are your final five. Okay. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? I love it when people make you feel that they're there for you. You know, their words mean everything to me, of course. I really appreciate that. And I also offer words of support to the girls I meet. And sometimes people roll their eyes like, Like, you know, what can they do to a girl's life when you tell them, believe in yourself, follow your dreams. But I remember hearing those words when I was a child and it meant everything to me because some people give you this hope and this belief that maybe you can do it too.

1:41:53So these things mean a lot. But I think more than that, it's you offering your support and making somebody feel that you are there for them. They're not alone. I think actions are just way more powerful. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Love that answer. And you're so right that these cliches are a cliche for a reason, because when you tell someone you believe in them, sometimes someone needs to hear that the most in that moment. And so it can't be undervalued. Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? the list is long maybe getting a fringe cut like bangs i did it in covid time i did it in such a good answer no it was terrible it was a terrible terrible advice that i took from a friend and uh wait for like two years for it to return to the normal length that is a brilliant answer That's so good.

1:42:51Please don't get it if it's not for you. That's so good. Question number three, what part of yourself are you still learning to love?

1:43:08I am so ambitious about seeing change happen in my lifetime, especially when you receive so much recognition and support. I always feel like I have received more than what I deserve. I mean, like getting a Nobel Peace Prize at 17, I can work for the rest of my life and still feel like I did not deserve it because still millions of girls are out of school. So, you know, I would keep on questioning myself, like, can we make the change happen? Can we make it sooner? But I then remind myself that it's, you know as much as we love to say one person changed the world even I myself said one book one pen can change the world I think a person can start a change they can spark it but it is the work of collective activism that can help us see the change become a reality so I just constantly remind myself this you know I'm at times disappointed like why are these things happening but it's you know Afghanistan, Gaza, 120 million girls out of school, child marriage, so many things but then I'm like the work is in action, it is happening, keep supporting education activists, keep doing the advocacy, keep empowering and uplifting girls voices and stopping and doubting yourself is not the answer.

1:44:42You don't want to go still where everything stops. So keep it going, accelerate it. But it's a constant conversation that I have with myself. I'm taking a slight detour from the final five because you said a couple of things that when you talk about 122 million girls in the world who don't have access to education, what's the primary reason for that or how does that break down across yeah i mean you know there are many reasons for that uh on the one hand it is the supply side issues so there are like not enough schools there are not enough safe schools the quality of teaching is not good distance to school is is a big challenge safety at school is a big problem so because of all of these reasons a girl is not in school.

1:45:29In many places, there are not enough high schools for girls. So people have invested enough in primary, but have not invested enough in the secondary education of girls. But then at the same time, there are also like cultural and social norms where, you know, it's become a taboo where girls are not allowed to be in school. We're seeing this happen in Afghanistan and many other parts of the world where just education is discouraged for girls. there are just too many restrictions that girls face but I do believe that you know there is a way for us to work towards solving these problems and I think it has to start with investing in education we have to address the supply side issues first because you want to make a school before you go and address the more like you know the social stigma or you know how do we change the mentality and sometimes those things just happen naturally we have seen in many areas including my parents village in Pakistan where once a school was built and a state-of-the-art education was provided the norms started changing themselves because they saw that they saw the real power of education how these girls are like are you know are having these different career paths that they could achieve.

1:46:50They could not only be helping themselves, but they could be helping their families as well. And everybody realizes that it's actually a benefit to the community as well. When a girl receives her education, there's economic empowerment, there's more prosperity, poverty reduces. And it's for the benefit of everybody when girls are receiving an education, including men and boys. It helps men and boys as well when we have more women educated and empowered. Talk about that because I think that's a challenge that's being talked about in the West right now, at least this idea in America that now, if you look at it, women are more likely to graduate.

1:47:29They're qualifying more than men are. And that's an interesting talking point. Talk to us about how women being educated is actually good for men as well. educated and empowered women actually are helping men in their families as well you know I do not know about like every country in every context but I have seen how this shift has happened where the boys were sort of usually told like you are supposed to be the breadwinner the girl is married off but the boys are supposed to be taking care of the family but if the girl is also able to get her education, she can also contribute to the family.

1:48:08It reduces the burden that is expected from the boys and that everybody's contributing to the family and everybody can look after each other as well. We have also seen that when more women are educated and there are open conversations about the role of men and challenging gender stereotypes that can help us have better feminist men or men who appreciate women's rights. So we need better sons, we need better brothers, we need better husbands and fathers as well. So I think working for girls' education is a way in which we can have more productive and helpful conversations and see this cultural shift.

1:48:57And at the same time, like when we talk about investing in girls' education and talk about policy change, that also directly benefits boys' education. It's never about like invest in girls' schools only. It's about invest in every school, but let's come up with gender inclusive policy. So we are addressing the problems that specifically cause girls to drop out or that can help us ensure that a girl makes it to the next year in her school. And it can also help us, you know, when it's gender inclusive, it can also address the problems that boys are also facing. Wonderful answer. How prevalent is child marriage still?

1:49:40Yeah, I mean, child marriage is still a big issue in many countries. And sometimes, you know, we sort of see news how the law is also being reversed. I think I heard about it happening in, I think, Iraq, which is like really crazy. I think it should be a law in every country where like, you know, a child should not be married off. It should be just illegal. It should be banned. And people who do it should be held accountable for that. And at the same time, we need to sort of change and challenge the culture around it as well. So, you know, using storytelling, TV shows and stuff like that can also help us to change these perspectives.

1:50:23But it's an issue that is affecting many girls, including in Pakistan, India and other parts of the world. Yeah, couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for those two parts I'll put into the episode accordingly. I took a little detour. Question number four of the final five. What does peace look like for you today? So when you asked about peace, I just think about world peace immediately. Because I have lived under a time when we used to hear gunshots and suicide attacks and bombings. And every 10 minutes, you would hear a sound and you were just worried whose house has been targeted, who has lost their life.

1:51:07And so when somebody asks me about peace, I don't think about peace at heart or being at peace with yourself. I usually think about world peace. And I hope bombings, I hope wars stop. We have to speak out against it.

1:51:30what I have experienced personally and how I have seen other girls and boys being targeted at school and how they have lost their loved ones, how they themselves have been injured. I met Palestinian refugees in Egypt just a few weeks ago and I just saw they were injured, they had lost a sibling, they were separated from their family members. It is just heartbreaking how absence of peace is taking away the right to life from so many people. They cannot live a normal life that we all, you know, most of us are privileged to have. So when I am at moments when I I'm just like looking outside the window and I see a normal life.

1:52:24I'm like, okay, there are normal cars and people are walking around and people are chatting and laughing and there's no bombing, no firing. Buildings are not destroyed. I just feel grateful. But I wish that for everybody. I think it has to stop. These are all human-made things. they're not happening itself these are human made we have to really question ourselves about the hatred that is created these hateful ideologies that are created how people are being dehumanized like the dehumanization of of people is a very big problem that's where it begins and that's what worries me the most when i think about like you know what's happening to women and girls in afghanistan they're being considered as second-class humans when we think about these different wars that are happening or what's happening in Gaza, it's like the dehumanization.

1:53:20So I hope that people see each other as equal. We see ourselves in other people and we stand up to these arms and these violent tools that are being spread in the world because it's a big problem. So I wish for real world peace and then that would give me peace and I would feel more at peace with myself. What would you say to a young girl who looks at the state of the world and doesn't feel hopeful right now? I would tell her, you know, I felt that many times. I still feel it many times, but then I remind myself that There's something that I can do today. I feel that we all have the capacity to drive for change.

1:54:20So sometimes we want the world to change. We want somebody else to make it happen.

1:54:27But we cannot wait for it to happen itself or for somebody else to do it for us. sometimes it's us who can be that change maker. So I don't want you to lose hope. So I don't want you to lose hope. And I want you to know that you could be the change maker. You could shift things and you could drive change. And fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? One law? You know, I'm not like that aggressive. I'm not authoritarian, though I have a lot of laws and rules for my husband and my brothers and my dad.

1:55:16A lot of rules for men. Maybe we should just have just rules for men who cause a lot of problems. I mean, I do see the significance of creating laws on the one hand, because what's happening in Afghanistan is beyond just gender discrimination. And if we look at the current laws in the international system, it cannot recognize the scale of the oppression that is happening there. So that's exactly why Afghan women activists are advocating for it to be recognized as a gender apartheid in the Crime Against Humanity Treaty, which basically means is that countries should not just be allowed to look away or normalize relationships with the Taliban or just simply condemn it and just feel like, OK, you know, we have done our job.

1:56:07that countries should be obliged to respond and countries should be held accountable to respond and they cannot be allowed to normalize relationships with oppressive regimes like the Taliban. So I think, you know, better laws are really important. We just need more protection for girls' rights. And right now, it is a crime for girls to be learning in Afghanistan. Let's process that. They're punished if they disobey this rule because the Taliban are abusing their power and they're punishing women, putting them in prisons if they disobey any of their absurd rules and restrictions that they have imposed.

1:56:48But on the other hand, if we look at our international law system, It is not recognizing what the Taliban are doing as a crime. I think the ban on education in itself should be recognized as an international crime and the Taliban should be held accountable for that. So I do believe that there is a huge significance in creating laws that can protect the right to education for girls and that can protect the rights of women and vulnerable communities at the same time. I also think it's about how we change as people and how we do things differently and how we challenge ourselves. We don't necessarily need laws to be acting differently.

1:57:35The most powerful thing is free will. And we all have the free will to be better, to be doing the right thing. We don't necessarily need laws. so sometimes I just also think about us doing better and just being more responsible standing up for what is right standing against injustices and sharing solidarity with those who are oppressed and who need our support Malala thank you so much for it wasn't one word right that wasn't it was brilliant thank you so much for writing this book Finding My Way thank you for coming and sharing it with our community here today. And thank you for having the courage to continue to find courage in all your different transitions and phases of life.

1:58:24Thank you. It feels like you've lived a million different lives in the short span that you've been here on earth. But your words, your actions, your work affects millions and millions and millions of people every day. Thank you. I just want to say one final thing that we talked about a lot of things. I have talked about many topics, But one thing that I feel people don't know about me is that I am a very funny person. That came across. Yes. I want people to know that in this book, of course, I'm talking about very important topics. But humor is something that has helped me through life in many ways.

1:59:04And humor is everything to me. So I laugh through many things. I laugh about many things. And so, you know, you will learn a lot about this book, but you will also be, you know, you know, laughing with me or, you know. At you. Yeah. Or at me. Just so you know, the first thing Malala said to me when she came in the room today, she was like, your wife's a lot cooler than you. And I was like, yeah, my wife's amazing. She goes, yeah, you don't even need to say that out loud. I was like, wow, I'm being roasted already. No, I think your humor has shone through in so many moments today. And it's a beautiful part of who you are.

1:59:39And I'm so glad you're sharing it. And I'm so glad you're showing us what a full human looks like. Thank you. Beyond the symbol, beyond a role you play, but what it means to have feelings and relationships in our lives. Yeah, no, this is me reintroducing myself. And the most important thing is being true to yourself. That is the most important message from me. Thank you, Malala. I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my conversation with Michelle Obama, where she opens up on how to stay with your partner when they're changing and the four check-ins you should be doing in your relationship.

2:00:20We also talk about how to deal with relationships when they're under stress. If you're going through something right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this is the episode for you. No wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new technology and we've just taken it in hook, lying and sinker. And we have to be mindful for our kids. They'll just be thumbing through this stuff. You know, their, their minds never sleeping. This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given. And Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destination.

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