Maya Shankar: Does Change Make You Feel Lost Or Uncertain? (Use THIS Framework To Find Direction Again and Use Change to Upgrade Your Life!)

26:34Like for this book, I interviewed people on repeated occasions over multiple years just to understand so deeply their psyche and their life story. And I was like, what a shame it would be if you do not benefit from that wisdom in this moment. If you don't use those same science-based strategies you're telling everyone else to use. I didn't want to just talk the talk. I wanted to walk the walk. And so I still remember this one night. I was sitting in my living room and my husband, Jimmy, and I were just spiraling. We were doing the thing everyone does in the face of uncertain change. We were starting to catastrophize.

27:06Our anxiety was rising and we could feel it in our bodies. Our hearts were racing and everything was looking negative. And I remember I pulled out, there's one chapter of the book I devote entirely to rumination. Separate note, I have a PhD in rumination, not an academic version, but the lived version. I am very skilled in waking up in the middle of the night and thinking about things, you know, till they drive me crazy. And I just remember reading some of these words that I'd written because they hit me even more in that moment when I feel I needed them most. And I was able to actually effectively use these strategies and they helped me in a time of need.

27:44And it was such a trying time. I was like, how am I going to get the energy to do this book tour? But I turned the ship around, folks. I did. And I'm here with you right now. And I'm so full of joy. and I think one of the reasons why you're seeing, oh, that's so sweet. Yeah, absolutely. One of the reasons I was talking about this with Jay beforehand, that you are seeing me filled with so much joy is that one, first of all, health stuff just puts everything into perspective. It just right sizes every small or big problem that you're, sorry, let me just say this differently. I'm getting emotional.

28:20Health challenges put everything into perspective immediately And so I instantly had clarity about what this book tour was all about. And it was that I'd written a book for people who are struggling with exactly what I was struggling with for the last three weeks. And it renewed my faith in the importance of storytelling, in the importance of distilling science in ways that are easy for people to understand, and for just connecting with my fellow human beings. And there's been so much healing that's happened even in just this past week, meeting people from all over the country, right? A woman came up to me and said, you know, she looked to be about in her late 30s.

28:59She was diagnosed with early onset Parkinson's. So she was dealing with that. And another person had been in a terrible car crash and she was dealing with the repercussions of that. And it's just really touched my heart to be in conversation with people going through this stuff.

29:17So beautiful. Honestly, as I'm listening to you and I'm so glad that you did share that. I didn't know if you were going to, But I'm glad you did because I don't think there's any better test of doing the work than doing it when it's happening right now. Yeah. And for those of us that share insight or share research or give advice or help people through things, it's only when you're going through that exact same thing yourself that the advice either stands true or it doesn't. I'm so glad you said that because I want to share an example of a time when I didn't want to do the work. and I ended up doing it and it really paid off, okay?

29:56So long story short, for years and years and years, my husband and I were on this journey to start a family and we experienced so many obstacles and disappointments and heartbreaks over the years and a miscarriage with our surrogate. And about a year and a half later, we were just over the moon because we found out that we were going to be having identical twin girls. And we were just so happy, like, oh my gosh, how amazing that this has now happened. It's like a blessing given the first pregnancy loss. And we saw two healthy beating hearts. And then five hours later, we found out that our surrogate had miscarried again.

30:33And it was to go from such a high high to such a low low within just a couple hours was so jarring for my nervous system. I was like, I remember telling my husband, Jimmy, I'm like, we need to leave our apartment. Like, I just need to get fresh air. I don't know how to tolerate sort of the emotional complexity of this moment. And all that I was grieving, you know, we talked about identity loss, right? Being a mom was one of the earliest identities that I ever aspired to have. And society always told me that in order to be a full person, I needed to have kids. And for that reason, I felt like it was a massive threat to hear about this loss.

31:16And I remember getting into bed early that night, putting the covers over me, and just feeling really, really sad. And my husband, Jimmy, comes in. Bless him. He goes, Ma 'i. Ma 'i is his pet name for me. Let's name five things we're really grateful for. And I'm like, oh, hell no, bro. You take your Instagram BS, you go into the corner, and your toxic positivity. There is no space for that in our bedroom right now. And I was so ticked off, Jay. I was like, I'm not doing this. This is so annoying. But there was something so sweet and innocent about Jimmy's like request. And I also thought, okay, also if I do this, maybe I'll just get him off my back.

31:59Let me just do this thing. Now, mind you, Jimmy's a software engineer. So what he did not know is that he was engaging me in that moment in what's called a self-affirmation exercise. Really fun to be married to a cognitive scientist, let me tell you. A self-affirmation exercise is when you articulate all the things that bring your life value and meaning that are not being threatened by the change you're going through. So if you're in a tough spot in your relationship, you might focus on your spiritual life. If you're having a rough go of it at work, you might focus on how meaningful your community is to you.

32:33What the affirmation exercise does is that it contextualizes what you're going through and it actually reduces things like denial because when you feel like, when you don't feel like your whole identity is under threat from this change, you can embrace the news more easily and actually start to cope with it. It also leads to greater resilience, less anxiety. There's all sorts of wellbeing outcomes associated with a self-affirmation exercise. So anyway, Jimmy comes in and he asked me to do this thing and I'm like stubbornly like, okay, fine. And the first item on my list, I was like, okay, well, I'm really grateful for you.

33:07You know, like, you know, you're the love of my life and you're so wonderful. But then this list just flowed out of me. I'm so grateful to be an aunt to my six nieces and nephews. What a joy that I get to go into the closet of our apartment and talk to people all over the world about their incredible stories of change. Like never in my, it was not in my bingo card that this was ever going to get to be my life, that I got to interview people and be interviewed by people where you have such incredibly, edifying conversations. I love my workouts with my Zoom trainer. Like we talk about The Bachelor and Love is Blind and it's just so much fun to gossip about all this stuff and it like feeds a different part of my soul.

33:50I always say celebrity gossip is my love language. And then I'm like, I'm grateful for the California sun. And it just, it was like effortless. It just started to flow out of me. And I swear to God, something magical happened in that moment. I had been so single mindedly focused on achieving this goal of mine, and I'm sure a lot of you can relate to this, we set our minds on something and we developed tunnel vision. We're like, until I get this outcome, like nothing can rest. That I had lost perspective on how otherwise rich and multidimensional my life was. I had forgotten that, yes, I was in pursuit of motherhood, but there was still so much else that defined me.

34:33There was still so much that made me a valuable human and were sources of joy in my life. And there was so much to be grateful for. And so did I go to bed overjoyed that night? Of course not. But did I go to bed feeling more whole? Yes, I did. And I'm so grateful that I forced myself in that moment to do the uncomfortable thing because it really helped me in the longer term. And Jimmy slept on the couch. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then we hired the divorce lawyers. so I'm just kidding. That is good old Jimmy. That's good for Jimmy. Even for Jimmy to have the like courage to even say that to you in that moment, I was like, oh God, I was scared for him.

35:26I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast In the lead up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bowen. Hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway. We are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What is one thing about love you've had to unlearn? That it's earned. That it needs to be forever for it to count.

36:08February is the month of love. Whether you're in a relationship, casually dating, or proudly single, it's a great time to reflect on yourself and what you want. I'm Hope Woodard, host of the Voice Over podcast, and each week this month, we're looking at love from every angle. I don't know how to tell my partner what I want in bed. The thing about romantic fiction, I would say, more than any other genre of culture, is that it's always put women first. My marriage stopped making sense. The connection started to feel off. The behavior started to feel different. This February, get in touch with yourself by listening to Boy Sober.

36:46That's B-O-Y-S-O-B-E-R. I'm like, I would love to not hate the man I'm sleeping with. I don't know what that's about. Listen to Boy Sober on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

37:47I feel like I just learned this yesterday. and so if I sound, if you hear this and you go, Jay, I've heard that a million times, then I'm glad you learned it quicker than I did. I literally learned this like two weeks ago. I was in India back at the monastery that I used to live at and I was sharing something I thought I'd learned with my teacher and he has this really remarkable way of teaching me back without making me feel like I'm stupid, but it's kind of like, yeah, you're stupid. You got that wrong. and you've just given me the science to back up what he was saying to me. So up until like two weeks ago, I thought you had to somehow figure out how to be grateful for what happened to you.

38:30We always hear that, be grateful for what happened. You know, the curse becomes a gift and the nightmare becomes the dream and you know, like be grateful for what happened to you. And I've always felt that you just had to somehow figure that out through like raw tolerance, beating your head over, you know, whatever it took, like you just had to figure out a way. And if you were deep enough, and if you were profound enough, then one day you could be grateful for like terrible things happening to you. And I felt like that's what it meant to have like, you know, God's childlike level forgiveness and level of acceptance.

39:05And he just said this to me, he goes, I was saying that to him. I was like, yeah, I really believe that, you know, one day I'll be really grateful for this and I'll be grateful for what happened to me. And he said, he said, you don't have to be grateful for what happens to you. You have to be grateful for what you have after what happens to you. And it was just this subtle, tiny change that completely freed me of this pressure that I'd put myself under as if you had to be grateful for not being able to have children or you had to be grateful for having an injury when you wanted to be a violinist as a kid.

39:39It's like, no, you don't have to be grateful for that. Like a hundred percent that you could, you could pretend to maybe for a day, but you know, you've just freed us as well by giving us the science band. And that's why I love your work so much because you have this profound ability to take wisdom, have the science to back it up, the resets to back it up and then make it sound so simple, even though you're so much smarter than all of us, but, uh, you know, make it sound so, and that's what you do so brilliantly in this book. It's like, we're like, wow, like you're actually speaking to us and speaking to our hearts and speaking our language.

40:09And I guess you had all this time to practice on software engineer, Jimmy. So, you know, you've had a guinea pig. Oh, no, go on. Yeah, just to follow into what you said, I think that's so spot on. And the people that I interviewed for the other side of change, by and large, aren't happy that they had to go through what they went through. They would not will their changes over again. Who would? Who would invite illness into their lives and a heartbreak and loss? I mean, that would be kind of strange. But they are extremely grateful, all of them, for the person they became as a result of the change they went through.

40:48And I feel like that's perfectly echoed by this teacher of yours. They feel like they emerged with renewed confidence, a renewed relationship with their family, a new sense of what was important, a new perspective on their self-worth and where to actually anchor it, a new way of seeing attachment and their closest relationships. That's the part they're grateful for. And I love the honesty of that because I often say like, I'm allergic to two things, soy and platitudes. I'm always skeptical when people talk about silver linings and whatnot. I'm like, really? Are you sure? Is that just something you tell yourself because it makes you feel better?

41:32Where's the science to back it up? And so it's so interesting because I was seeing, I went into, by the way, writing The Other Side of Change pretty agnostic as to what I would find. I identified people from all over the world that I just found fascinating. And I interviewed them for a bunch of years. And I didn't know what lessons I would learn. I didn't know what their stories would reveal, which was an incredibly delightful process of exploration, by the way. It was like me, like Maya, the cognitive scientist in a candy shop, literally. I started to see this incredibly hopeful message emerge about change, right?

42:05Which is that people were grateful for the internal transformation they went through. And I really felt this deeply, and I was alluding to this before, when I was writing the final chapter of the book unexpectedly about my own experience on this parent or trying to be a parent journey. And I realized something really important. So I had very slowly and very subconsciously been on my own internal evolution and transformation on this topic. If you had asked me on that night when Jimmy asked me that incredibly annoying question, is anything good ever going to come of this? I would have said no. Will you ever feel whole as a person if you don't have kids?

42:52Oh, definitely not. Will your life have enough color without kids? Oh my gosh, absolutely. All of those questions I would have said no to. And yet, here I am, three years out, and I am child-free today, and you are seeing the happiest, most joyful, most curious, most hopeful version of Maya that has ever existed. And I could never have seen that coming because I—thank you—my dream was cut short, you know, and you don't always anticipate that when a dream is cut short, you'll still be grateful for what happened on the other side exactly to your point. And so witnessing that within me was very moving and very wildly unexpected.

43:40I realized, by the way, so one of the chapters in The Other Side of Change is about a woman who has to revisit her relationship with her family history. It actually comes about through a bout of amnesia. It's like one of the most fascinating tales I've come across. And the idea of that chapter is it shows change can actually serve as an important moment of revelation for all of us. So when a really negative thing happens in our lives, we can often think of it as a personal apocalypse of sorts. The world that we once knew that was so familiar and so comforting to us, so comfortable as well, is no longer available.

44:16And interestingly, the word apocalypse comes from the Greek word apocalypsis, which means revelation. And so the etymology is really instructive. Change can upend us, yes, but it can also reveal things to us. And as I was going on this journey of figuring out my own relationship with motherhood and parenthood, I realized I did have quite antiquated views that were fed to me maybe through my Indian American upbringing, right, through cultural forces, through pop culture, through society, through the very special stigma reserved for child-free women, that a woman's value was something that was firmly attached to whether she had kids, whether she has kids.

44:59I mean, it's a stigma that still very much exists today. And part of my process, because I talk in the book about how we cannot view our beliefs and ideas as these sacred, immutable truths that ought to never be examined. Most of our beliefs, most of the ideas we have about the world were inherited subconsciously. They were in our childhood from caregivers. And we had so much of our love wrapped up in that caregiver that to challenge them, to question them, would have been quite dangerous, emotionally dangerous for us. or we learned them from a teacher that we so greatly admired. And because we were more of a black and white thinker, we couldn't see that there might be nuance or we learned it from watching TV or we learned it through who becomes famous or not famous.

45:41And all of those ideas are worth unwinding and unpacking. And change can give us this powerful moment where we take a step back and think, wow, is this point of view worth revisiting? And so I credit Ingrid, this woman's story, for giving me the courage I needed to question some of these assumptions and to now feel like, of course I'm like a whole woman in her, you know, without kids. Like, how could I have ever thought that? It seems preposterous now. But we all grow up with these self-limiting beliefs. And so I believe in the power of change to help unearth what they are and then give us a chance to question them.

46:18Well said, well said. Thank you.

46:25Maya, we're running out of time, but I want to end with a little quick fire about change. Okay, I'll try my best. We always end every episode of my podcast with a quick fire, but you've already done that before because you came on the show four years ago. And so you've answered those questions. So I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you a new set of questions. So these questions have to be answered in one sentence. Okay. All right. So the first question is, what is the first change people should choose after tonight? Being present when they are with other people. That's a great answer. Very good.

47:01All right. Put your phone away. It's okay. Because that really... Not right now. Keep filming so that more people get the book. And I'm not allowed to go on, but just know that that is also evidence-based. Go ahead. Do you want to tell us the evidence? No, no, it's okay. It's okay. Let's do the lightning. Okay. All right. Okay. Okay. Second question. The change that you're happiest you made in the last 12 months. To care less what people I don't respect think of me. That's a really hard one. I'm still working on it. I'm like, wait, but I just want, can't we just all feel love for one another? It's like such a naive point of view, but I'm like, I just want people to love each other.

47:46And then it's just, yeah. And then, you know, not looking at comments on the internet. So. Question number three, something you're trying to change this year. I am an extremely impatient person. Can I have a few more sentences? Sure, sure, sure, go on. You've been doing it for all of them without permission. So I don't know why you're asking now, but go on. I'm extremely impatient. I, for so long, hated this part of my personality. though I think one thing that's really helpful for everyone is to remember there's always two sides to the coin on personality traits. So my impatience has also really helped me in my work in the White House and my work, you know, at various places like that.

48:25Impatience propels me to try to get stuff done. So I try not to resent it too much, but I think it would be really good for my overall well-being if I just like took a beat. So when my, you know, if my boss sends me a message on like a Friday afternoon that's like, hey, period, don't freak out. You can wait till Monday. It's going to be okay. Whereas I tend to kind of like need resolution as quickly as possible. That's, I think we can all relate. Yeah, I just want closure. The smallest change that someone can make in their relationships.

49:01Try not to impose your mental frame, your way of seeing the world onto the other person. So before you talk at them, deeply listen to them, and then you will be able to find common ground. Great answers. Wow, you're like... I'm trying to be picky. Yeah, this is really good. This is the final question I want to ask you. Okay. And this one, you can go on on it because I really want to understand it. Do you believe that if we chose more change, we'd be better at dealing with change? I love that question so much. So the previous stop of this book tour was in San Francisco. Francisco. And Michael Lewis was moderating the conversation, so the author and journalist.

49:44And someone in the audience asked a question actually about the uncertainty around AI. And as a mom, she was thinking, what do I tell my kid, right? So that they learn to embrace change, because that's actually kind of what you're asking, right? How can we take strategic steps to embrace change more? And he gave a fantastic piece of advice. He said, take an improv comedy class. Get yourself off balance. That's really the kind of change that's really healthy for us, is to go outside of our comfort zone, to test ourselves, and to be in almost this perpetual state of unease, because that's when we flex all these muscles, all these abilities that we had that may have been laying dormant, because we were always choosing what was comfortable.

50:32and we get to see them on display and think, oh, wow, like maybe I am a little bit more resilient than I thought. And I think it's so great for us to introduce change in the form of challenge when we learn a new skill, for example. So you interviewed Chris Hemsworth for your podcast, and I was his brain coach on this show called Limitless. And I was so inspired by his attitude. You know, this guy is like one of the most famous actors in the world. He could just sit back and relax. And he was telling this audience at the London premiere, I think we all need to be a little bit more uncomfortable.

51:13He's like, I seek out discomfort wherever I can. He's like, you know, with these Nest thermostats that adapt to the ideal temperature and smart white, like everything's meant to be customized so that it brings ease into our lives. And Chris was saying, I feel like that's the only vehicle for growth is to be in these uncertain, uncomfortable situations. That's the only way. The episode was all about flexing our brain's capacity for plasticity, right, and building cognitive reserve so that as we age, we feel the impact less. Again, I was just so inspired to hear him say that because, again, he could just kick back and be like, okay, I'm good.

51:47And instead, you know, for our episode, he learned the drums and played with Ed Sheeran in front of 70 ,000 people. So we don't have to do that version. I'm not doing that version. My smaller commitment to introduce a little bit of change into my life was re-picking up learning Mandarin. So my husband's Chinese American and his relatives don't speak English. And I took a brief hiatus, namely three and a half years while I wrote this book, where I stopped taking those lessons and I'm now committing to starting again in 2026. Well, Maya, I'm so happy that you took that brief hiatus and put together this amazing book, The Other Side of Change, as I said, when you pick up this book today, you're not picking up just a book.

52:29You're picking up interviews, research, hundreds and thousands of hours of other people's stories, lived experience, ups and downs, challenges, breakthroughs, discomfort, and you get to invite that all into your life. And as someone who grew up as an avid reader of nonfiction and true stories. I think what Maya's put together in this incredible book is an invitation to all of us to study the lives of people just like us who have walked the path of challenges that we either have in our life right now or may have in the future and gain probably the most important skill humans could potentially ever develop, which is dealing with change.

53:15there's probably no if there's one skill you dedicate 2026 to it should probably be dealing with change there is no more important skill not mandarin sorry uh not anything else it's dealing with change and so this book is dedicated to that maya's dedicated three and a half years and the people that are in the book have spent decades living it through oh my gosh totally uh and so from the bottom of my heart i hope you'll grab a copy maya i'm so proud of you and Thank you so much. I'm grateful for just how you walk through life and even just your expertise and all the answers you gave today was just second to none.

53:50It was unbelievable to learn from you and listen to you. I'm always humbled when I'm around you. Thank you so much. And I'm so grateful that you let me support you. I'm going to let everyone ask you all their amazing questions now that I'm sure they're dying to ask you. And thank you again for letting me be a part of this. Give it up for Maya, everyone. Thank you. If you loved this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to change your life by changing your brain. If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain. You know, I've had the blessing or the curse to scan over a thousand convicted felons and over a hundred murderers, and their brains are very damaged.

54:33I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast. In the lead up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bowen. Hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway. We are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

55:12Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, a.k.a. Neurolinguistic Programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A new year doesn't ask us to become someone new.

55:50It invites us back home to ourselves. I'm Mike Della Rocha, host of Sacred Lessons, a space for men to pause, reflect, and heal. This year, we're talking honestly about mental health, relationships, and the patterns we're ready to release. If you're looking for clarity, connection, and healthier ways to show up in your life, Sacred Lessons is here for you. Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Delaroach on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.